amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 2000-02-22 IDASA CENTRE PRETORIA 4 EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK ATTACK ON TRANSIT HOUSE IN SWAZILAND https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54052&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200222pt.htm CHAIRPERSON For the purposes of the record, my name is Judge Pillay. I'm going to ask my colleagues to identify themselves for the purposes of the record as well, and so too with the different representatives. JUDGE KHAMPEPE I'm Judge Khampepe. ADV BOSMAN I'm Advocate Bosman. MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is S W Hugo, I'm acting on behalf of applicant EA de Kock. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Wim Cornelius, I have received instructions to act on behalf of Daniel Lionel Snyman, the second applicant. MR CLAASEN Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Dawie Claasen, I'm an attorney from Pretoria. I'm acting on behalf of the family of the deceased in this incident. MS PATEL Ramula Patel. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel, before we proceed, can you just tell us why we started so late? MS PATEL Honourable Chairperson, unfortunately the victims arrived late, my understanding is that they came from Heidelberg. I'm not sure exactly why they are as late as they are, perhaps my learned colleague, Mr Claasen, can address you on that. MR CLAASEN As the Chair pleases. Mr Chairman, yes, the mother of the deceased comes from Estcourt in Natal, I believe she only came through last night and I haven't quite been able to ascertain why they were quite so late, but it just appears that they got away from Heidelberg a bit behind schedule. CHAIRPERSON Mr Claasen, I understand that you are unable to give us a proper explanation now, but hopefully we will finish this hearing by late this afternoon, in which case no damage would have been done, but insofar as we may continue this hearing tomorrow morning, then I would appreciate a proper explanation. MR CLAASEN As the Chair pleases, I will furnish the Committee with a proper explanation should the need arise. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON No, the need does arise, the opportunity may not. MR CLAASEN Thank you, Mr Chair, I will do that. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hugo, are you going to start? MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman, yes. I call applicant EA de Kock, he's going to be the first applicant in this matter. CHAIRPERSON I assume you would like to speak Afrikaans. EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr de Kock, you are the applicant in this matter which is known as defeating the ends of justice in the death of the IFP member at Heidelberg in 1992, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO Your application for amnesty appears in bundle 2 of the documents, from page 3 to page 9, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HUGO Very well. As with the other hearings you made supplementary affidavits and submitted documents. The first one is the general background, an introduction, and then you also made a further affidavit, a supplementary affidavit which is more about Vlakplaas, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes. MNR HUGO "En u vra dan die Agbare Komitee om die inhoud van hierdie verklarings, soos vervat in hierdie aanvullende eedverklarings, te sien as synde deel van u amnestie aansoek." MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO Can you just in short explain to us in your own words why you became involved in this incident. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, as a result of a visit from Mr Andreiowitch and Willie Odendaal from the Springs Security Branch in 1992, at a covert house in Waterkloof ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr de Kock, will you please go slower. You say a visit from? MR DE KOCK From Mr Andreiowitch and Mr Willie Odendaal of the Security Branch in Springs. It was at a covert house from which my group and myself worked from or operated from. That was in 1992. It was also known as the "grasdak huis", referring to the appearance of the house. I was requested by Mr Andreiowitch to assist them to get rid of a body. The corpse was of a person, when alive, was a member or organiser of the IFP in the Springs/Heidelberg area, and that this person during interrogation had died in one of the kombis or busses as a result of the interrogation. ADV BOSMAN At that stage did you know what the name of the person was? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I did not know who this person was, I only knew that he was a member of the IFP and I did not know him at all. CHAIRPERSON Do I understand you correctly if you say that he died because of the interrogation? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. As far as I can remember or understand, he was interrogated while he was in the kombi and it was moving at that stage. The interrogation was done with - coincided with assault. I do not know the nature of it, I cannot give evidence of that because I cannot remember that. MR HUGO Can I just ask you then, the interrogation that resulted in the death of this persons, did you understand from Mr Andreiowitch that he took part in this interrogation and also the resulting death? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, I can just mention here - certain aspects that could refresh one's memory, during this conversation and a question to me "Who was there at that stage?", Mr Andreiowitch mentioned that they were seven or eight people and that two of them were black members who were part of the Investigative Unit of the Heidelberg Police. I'm not quite sure however, from what unit they were or what group they were. CHAIRPERSON What police? MR DE KOCK It was from the Heidelberg Police, they were stationed there. MR HUGO Very well. What was the request from Mr Andreiowitch? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, his request was that I must assist them, that is the group that was involved in the interrogation and the death of this person, to get rid of the corpse. And I mentioned to him that I do not want to get involved, I'm not going to get involved in getting rid of this corpse or any physical action in that regard. I did say that I would provide them with equipment and it then arose from the discussion that they would use limpet mines. That is a mine that has got a detonating system. It is from an eastern block or Russian origin. CHAIRPERSON Can you tell me why didn't you want to get involved in this? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, this incident happened late in 1992, and I then had done so many things and I'd taken responsibility for so many things and I started to feel that I was withdrawing. I could have been involved but I just didn't want to do it. CHAIRPERSON I do not know if I'm correct in this, but as far as I can remember it was in a document - I don't know if it was yours or somebody else's, where it was written that you were a member of the IFP, or something in that regard. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, I was a card-carrying member. CHAIRPERSON You are now asked to assist in getting rid of the body of a member of the IFP. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it was something I did not like, but there was another reason that was more serious and that was that Mr Andreiowitch was a former member of Vlakplaas, and that he was involved in cross-border operations in Botswana during the Harms Commission, and I felt responsible that I help him in this. With the Harms Commission we succeeded with the Judge and with the community in misleading them in that we said we were not involved in cross-border operations and we did not have AK47s, detonators and other equipment, and I realised that if Mr Andreiowitch will be accused and found guilty, then everything will start all over again. The ANC at that stage complained about a third force and we denied it, and everything would have been in disarray. That is in terms of what we did at that stage to protect the National Party and the Security Police. I was not very happy with that set-up. I then later had a discussion with Mr van Heerden, a former member of Vlakplaas, to with our connections in Ulundi, prevent the IFP march in Transvaal to the Heidelberg Police Station ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry to interrupt. Ms Patel, Andreiowitch and Odendaal, were they given notice? MS PATEL Unfortunately Honourable Chairperson, Andreiowitch we were not able to locate. Rumour has it that he's out of the country. Odendaal was in fact notified, he tendered a - Mr Wagener was here this morning, he tendered an affidavit on his - oh no, sorry, not Mr Wagener, but an affidavit by Mr Odendaal was faxed through to our offices yesterday. It is in fact before you. CHAIRPERSON Good, carry on. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Has that been given to Mr Hugo? MS PATEL It has, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Continue. MR HUGO Very well. You said that you had a conversation with Mr van Heerden, but I'd just like to -I want you to tell us when you liaised with Mr van Heerden, what happened then? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, because of that liaison he then made contact with Minister Mtetwa, who was then the Minister of Justice and the police at that stage, to put pressure on Themba Khoza who was the youth leader of the IFP in Transvaal, not to continue with this march to the Heidelberg police station to force the police to bring this person to the front. At that stage there were reports in the newspapers that this person disappeared or that he was killed, there were certain rumours, and they wanted - five or ten thousand IFP members wanted to go to the police station then. And because of the liaison with Mr Mtetwa, a small group went, I think it was ten or fifteen under the leadership of Mr Themba Khoza, and a report or a petition was submitted at the Heidelberg police station and no further political pressure came from the IFP concerning Mr Khanyile. ADV BOSMAN Mr De Kock, did you try to ascertain why Mr Khanyile was attacked and as a result died, because that is not clear. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I did not ask for details, I did not ask if he was strangled, if he was suffocated or a machine was used ...(intervention) ADV BOSMAN No, you're misunderstanding my question, I don't want to know how he died, but it happened that they assaulted him and what resulted in his death. It is now an IFP member and there was sympathy from the Security Police to the IFP members and why would they then do this to an IFP member? MR DE KOCK The Springs Security Branch did do investigations, it was now irrespective of if it was IFP or ANC, but in this instance, this member of the IFP was involved in the organisation of the IFP's, let me say it was the forces, but as far as I understood it he had weapons with him and if I can remember correctly he was involved in an attack on an ANC member, where this person was shot in the chest - this was according to Mr Andreiowitch, and as far as I understand it he was arrested at his workplace and not in the hostel or the place where he stayed. And after he was taken from there, it was while they were in the vehicle, they then started with the assault and he then died as a result of it. ADV BOSMAN So are you trying to tell us that the Security Police in Springs did not have any sentiments concerning the IFP? MR DE KOCK I cannot say that, but I cannot confirm it either. I cannot say that their sentiments were the same as mine or the other people who supported the IFP. ADV BOSMAN Did they know that you supported the IFP? MR DE KOCK Yes, there were a few members. I cannot say that all the Vlakplaas members knew, but we did not act against the IFP. ADV BOSMAN Let's be more specific, did Andreiowitch and Odendaal know that you supported the IFP? MR DE KOCK I won't be able to say, I cannot make that conclusion, no. I didn't ever use either one of the two of them with anything regarding the IFP, such as the supply of ammunition and arms. ADV BOSMAN But wasn't it generally known that you were favourably inclined towards the IFP, especially among the ranks of the Vlakplaas members? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it may have been well known, I just would not be able to confirm this. ADV BOSMAN No, I understand that, but you must have had some kind of idea whether the Vlakplaas members in general knew that you were favourably inclined towards the IFP. Is it your idea that it was common knowledge that you were favourably inclined towards the IFP, especially among the members of Vlakplaas? MR DE KOCK I'm sure that that might have been the inclination that was sent out and that people might have drawn that conclusion. ADV BOSMAN Because what I find strange Mr de Kock, is why if they had probably known this, would they have come to you to ask for assistance in getting rid of the body, didn't they have the necessary knowledge and so forth in order for them to be able to do so themselves? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, they probably could have been able to do so themselves, as in all cases one would want a distance between them, and when I refer to distance what I mean is that they could always have said that they were somewhere else when the body was disposed of. In this case I wouldn't be able to determine what their motivation would have been, with the exception that Mr Andreiowitch had the space to come to me, he knew that Vlakplaas was involved in this sort of work and that we possessed the necessary equipment. I don't know whether or not they possessed the equipment at that stage. ADV BOSMAN I do not wish to entrap you in any way, I just want some clarity in my own mind. I just find it somewhat strange that you didn't tell them that here is a reasonably senior IFP member in that environment, why did you assault him so grievously that it led to his death? Didn't you enquire about that, couldn't you clarify that for me please. MR DE KOCK That was not the determining factor for me, the determining factor for me with regard to this situation was that Mr Andreiowitch approached me and he was one of the persons who indeed had knowledge and had actively participated in cross-border operations, and what would the situation be for me or Vlakplaas if Mr Andreiowitch were to be charged despite IFP membership and then during a criminal trial say, "But we did this sort of work, this was nothing out of the ordinary"? That was the greatest determining factor for me in that situation. Whether or not it was an IFP member was of secondary nature at that stage. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. Mr Hugo, please proceed. CHAIRPERSON Just tell me Mr de Kock, the treatment of the IFP by the police, was this policy or was it as a result of your membership? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, the IFP was the traditional opponent of the ANC, so to speak, and that is why we began to liaise with each other ultimately. CHAIRPERSON No, this would be on a personal level, what I'm referring to was police policy. Was there such a policy? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, there was a policy of looking away, if I might put it as such. CHAIRPERSON And where did this policy originate? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, this policy was generally something that originated from the higher echelons, and when I refer to these levels, I refer to Generals and so forth. I've completed claim forms amounting to R20 000 for the manufacturing of assegais, assistance that was given to the IFP in KwaZulu Natal. For example, six devices to the value of R6 000 each, which would be used for scrambling, which would be used on a telephone line. It was very sophisticated equipment that we provided to them. CHAIRPERSON In other words if this device was implemented, nobody could tap the telephone line? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct, because there would be about 330 000 different types of combinations which would be used. So in that light there was a question of evading detection or capture. I cannot say that it was like this on all levels, but that was the general attitude. CHAIRPERSON Yes you see because if there was such a policy, why was this person interrogated and consequently killed? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, unfortunately I cannot assist you with this matter. I don't believe that this person wanted to kill him. One doesn't always know what his physical condition was or how seriously they assaulted him. CHAIRPERSON Whatever the reason may have been, they assaulted him so seriously that they could not allow him to walk about freely again. MR DE KOCK That possibility also exists. CHAIRPERSON Yes but we cannot determine that and you have said that you do not know, and I understand that. However, if it was the policy to turn a blind eye to what the IFP members were up to, it would appear to me as if it was the possession that if a similar incident were to take place, such as an incident during which a person was killed by the police, be it accident or not, it would then be expected that you or someone of your rank would speak to the big guns about it or at least report about it, in order to inform them of how this came to be. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I did approach my head about this matter, on a very concentrated basis, whether or not he understood what I was telling him or whether I understood it correctly is always a question of debate because it was a one-on-one discussion. That is how things operated and we can see the effects of this today. With regard to the Springs persons, I cannot say whether they came because he was an IFP member and that they were called in specifically regarding that. They had a body of a man who had died during interrogation and they needed to get rid of this body. As I have told you, my greatest determining factor was of course that Andreiowitch was the catalyst which led to my decision. MR HUGO I will return to Andreiowitch and his role and so forth somewhat later. Arrangements were made according to your evidence, with Themba Khoza and Mtetwa and then there was a march which was not of the scope which had been initially foreseen. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HUGO And you have referred to the report that you made and you state in your affidavit that you spoke to Gen Engelbrecht regarding this matter. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HUGO And you informed him briefly that there could be possible problems. MR DE KOCK Yes, it was already clear that this was under way. MR HUGO Very well. And which steps were taken subsequently? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I accepted that Gen Engelbrecht had indeed had a word with these persons, and I cannot mention their names directly now, I understand from later information which I gained, that a demolitions expert from Pretoria, a Mr or Capt Hammond or Col Hammond, led the investigation so that the Springs demolitions expert would not be involved. The dossier was led by Capt Koekemoer who was part of the East Rand Murder and Robbery Unit. My intention, and that was also my sentiment and my knowledge at that stage, was that these persons were well-informed to be able to detect certain things and not to detect other things, but I cannot really testify about this because one could say that this would be inference but in the past things did function this way ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON It appeared as such. MR DE KOCK Yes. However, I can tell you, and I would base this furthermore on the following - by the time that the body of Mr Khanyile was found at the stockpile location for the limpets that we had provided, there was period of two to three days that had elapsed and I understood that the problem was that Mr Khanyile was taken away from his place of work and he was found two to three days later at this stockpile, in the same clothing that he wore when he was taken away. In other words, he didn't bathe or put on other clothes or have his clothes washed in-between. In other words, somewhere along the line it wouldn't have taken Sherlock Holmes to figure out that this man hadn't returned to his abode, that he hadn't changed his clothes. I wouldn't want to say anything further about this because this would be speculation, but that is the information that I had at my disposal. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone. CHAIRPERSON How did the police explain this? MR DE KOCK I don't know, Chairperson, because ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Everybody knew that he had been taken away from his place of work. MR DE KOCK Yes. As far as I know according to the information which was conveyed to me on the day that the two members came to me at the thatch-roof house, the information was that he died after he was taken away from work. In other words on that very same day he was interrogated and assaulted. MR HUGO Mr de Kock, is it correct to say that Mr Andreiowitch left no doubt in your mind that he, Mr Andreiowitch, was in a very precarious position in the sense that he could be prosecuted and that other members could be found to be co-responsible for the incident? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HUGO Now before we continue with the political objective, with the indulgence of the Committee I would just like to refer to several aspects and I would like to know whether or not you concur with these aspects. Mr Chairman, I'm referring to, I think it's bundle 2, that is the bundle - well it's the bundle 2 of the supplementary affidavits, it's the bundle dealing with Vlakplaas as a separate entity. I'm not sure what it's marked in your papers. Mr de Kock, I just want to take you through this briefly, there are just a few aspects that I want to highlight. On page 18 of this bundle which deals with Vlakplaas, you have stipulated there that Vlakplaas actually operated as a neutralisation unit, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON To neutralise what? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, that would be between recruiting a man as a source, the capture or recruitment or killing or prosecution of terrorists and the killing on a covert basis, whether cross-border or internal, of such persons. These were the euphemisms which were employed in order to give the top structure the opportunity to figure out their own definitions. MR HUGO Just to put it briefly and crudely, Vlakplaas was indeed the hit-squad of the former government? MR DE KOCK Yes, there can be no doubt about that. MR HUGO And did Mr Andreiowitch know this, did he have personal knowledge of this? MR DE KOCK Yes, he himself participated in operations. MR HUGO Very well. Then I would like you to turn to page 29 of the same document - I beg your pardon, before we get to that let us turn to page 23 instead. There you deal with cross-border operations in which Vlakplaas was involved and then specifically you deal with the Chand matter. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HUGO And then is it also correct - I don't wish to lead evidence on this, but it is correct that this application has already been heard, that there was an attack during which four persons were killed and this took place during the proceedings of the Harms Commission. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HUGO And was Mr Andreiowitch involved during this matter? MR DE KOCK Yes, directly. MR HUGO And he had personal and very detailed knowledge about this incident. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HUGO And at that stage when Mr Andreiowitch came to see you, nobody knew about Vlakplaas' involvement in this particular incident. MR DE KOCK No, save for the persons who were involved who had received orders to participate. MR HUGO Thank you. Then I want you to turn to page 29 and then very briefly there you also say that Vlakplaas was regularly applied by other units in order to cover up offences committed by the Security Police, and then to literally hide this under the bushel, if one were to put it as such. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HUGO And then on page 31 you state facts about the weapons which came from Ovamboland, and was the limpet mine that you provided among others, part of this weaponry? MR DE KOCK It was either part of this weaponry or part of confiscated ANC/PAC weaponry. Just for the sake of completion I could mention here that there was a written order which was sent to all divisions to send all their weapons of terror, such as ammunition, handgrenades, limpet mines and so forth to Vlakplaas. CHAIRPERSON Just a question, Mr de Kock, your representative can deal with this in argument, I do not wish to place you in a position of not having testified about this and then at the end of the hearing we experience a problem in that you haven't had the opportunity to comment on this aspect. The Act requires that an applicant for amnesty must receive amnesty on the condition basically, that he has convinced the Panel that what he or she has done was done for political reasons. Furthermore, basically, that he or she has disclosed everything that he or she knows about a specific incident. MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now let us deal with this incident. We know now that there was some sort of relationship between the police and the government of the day and the IFP, at the very least to turn a blind eye to what the IFP members were doing unlawfully. And then some people come to you and say "Listen, we need to get rid of a body, it is the body of a member of the IFP", now to what extent would the death or the assault or the interrogation of an IFP member be in the interests of the government of the day? What was your frame of mind at that stage? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it would certainly not have been in the interests of the IFP, but with Mr Andreiowitch and the request made by Mr Odendaal ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, I'm not referring to that government, I'm referring to the South African government of that time. MR DE KOCK As I've said, my primary idea was that if Mr Andreiowitch were to be charged and ultimately as with Dirk Coetzee and Almond Nofomela's case, would have talked, this would have brought the existence of Vlakplaas to light with the Harms Commission, it would have led to further investigations and this would then effectively have placed the Security Police and the government in a prejudicial position. The negotiation phase was under way at that stage and this could also have damaged the process. That was my primary function, to prevent that the police or the National Party once again find themselves in a dilemma, be it ANC, IFP or PAC or origin. CHAIRPERSON Do I then understand you correctly, that it was not the interests of your colleagues that you had at heart, it was the protection of the government and all the other parties, it was to help them prepare for what had happened? MR DE KOCK Yes. And the National Party would have suffered, it might have brought the National Party to a complete fall before the completion of the process. CHAIRPERSON And that was your concern at that stage? MR DE KOCK Yes. CHAIRPERSON And would that constitute the political reason for your action at that time? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HUGO And in fact the damage which would have emanated if Mr Andreiowitch had talked, is not something that you have just invented. Would you tell us what happened when Mr Nofomela spoke for the first time as well as Mr Coetzee, and what the effect of this effect of this was on Vlakplaas. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, in 1989 the effect of that is what we are still testifying about here today, it is almost 11 years later, and it would and could have placed the government of the day to such a disadvantage that we would not have been able to come to a compromise or that the National Party would have fallen. CHAIRPERSON I also know about certain documents which I read pertaining to other matters, in which it appears that when the possibility of Codessa appeared in the newspapers there was a section of the South African population which did not accept this. MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And there were many policemen who fell into that category at that stage. MR DE KOCK That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Certain incidents took place and many things happened which could have ensured that the entire Codessa process go off the rail. What was your attitude towards Codessa at that stage? MR DE KOCK My personal attitude and the attitude of some of my members was that we would rather fight to the bitter end, that we would rather enter a war and run to the mountains before we reached any point of compromise. CHAIRPERSON Now how does that response gel with your previous response that you acted because you were aware of the possibility of Codessa? If you didn't care for what happened with Codessa, you would fight to the bitter end. MR DE KOCK That was my personal attitude, Chairperson, that was my attitude as a person, but I was still a member of a group or a unit and by nature of the situation I was not dis-favourably inclined towards the National Party. And the whole aspect was that we had been through an incident where we denied everything, such as the Harms Commission, and we were going to stick to our stories and we were not going to create anymore problems. Mr Andreiowitch could however have derailed that entire process and that is what I based my actions on. JUDGE KHAMPEPE May I on this point, Mr de Kock, make an enquiry. Now that I understand the reason that made you to ultimately accede to Mr Andreiowitch's request, in that he was in possession of, or privy to very sensitive information about Vlakplaas activities which you did not obviously, for obvious reasons you didn't want such information being revealed, if Mr Khanyile, that is the alleged IFP member, had not been politically involved, he was just an ordinary person who happened to have been killed by Mr Andreiowitch, would you still have acceded to his request in order to protect the secrecy of the information that he was in possession of about Vlakplaas' activities? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, definitely so, I've got no doubt about it. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. That to me is quite important. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you. MR HUGO We've already dealt with your submissions about Vlakplaas and the results, or what happened after the revelation of Nofomela and Coetzee. It also happened that Nofomela and Coetzee's evidence was not accepted by the Harms Commission. MR DE KOCK That is correct, yes. MR HUGO But it did result in a lot of problems for the Security Police. MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HUGO And if Mr Andreiowitch would then be a third person to come forward, that would have been impossible then to distinguish all the fires. MR DE KOCK That is true. MNR HUGO "Dan net vinnig handel u met Vlakplaas as 'n koeverte eenheid en dat dit nie in die algemene handel en wandel bekend was dat die Suid Afrikaanse regering op daai stadium so 'n eenheid gehad het nie - dis op bladsy 50." Let me just ask you in short, if Mr Andreiowitch at that stage was found guilty and then started to talk about Vlakplaas, what would have been the result for the government? MR DE KOCK Well first of all the Security Police definitely, I can almost say it would have collapsed and I don't doubt that it would have completely weakened the National Party, or would have fallen apart. I don't have doubt of that. MR HUGO And is it not so that at that stage the ANC specifically made allegations that there was a third force that was still operating and that was still instigating violence? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is true. MR HUGO And what was your attitude that if Andreiowitch's position and his position in Vlakplaas and his cross-border operations were made known, what effect would it then have for the ANC and on the opposite then, for the Security Police and the government? MR DE KOCK Well the Security Police and the government could then have stopped negotiating and just handed it over. It would have been put them in a very bad light and there would have been no situation in which they stand, in which they could have said that it was no third force, "die hele Harms Kommissie sou van die tafel afgevee gewees het op daardie stadium" and what would have happened then is also speculation. CHAIRPERSON Mr de Kock, tell me, did the government know about Vlakplaas? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, the Minister came for a braai, he had dinner there - I'm talking about Minister Vlok, we were congratulated about the blowing up of Cosatu House. We established the first black parachuting unit in the SAP, because nobody else wanted to do it, they said blacks did not have to jump with parachutes, but I foresaw that it was necessary and Mr Minister Vlok - I confirmed it just now, Minister Vlok at one stage handed over to eight of my black members, their wings after they completed the course. And at another opportunity, with a Xmas party, he spoke to the whole family and we had the official dinner with him as the head of this dinner. He did know about it. Gen Kat Liebenberg came to visit us, Joop Joubert of Special Forces came to visit. No, it was well-known. CHAIRPERSON And what about parliament? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, the parliament members did not come or did not visit Vlakplaas, but let us say some of the askaris, the former ANC members, gave evidence in parliament in Cape Town before observers and groups - that is now fact finding groups in Cape Town, about the ANC as a terrorist group and their ties with communism. And at one stage I think eight or nine askaris flew down to Cape Town to give evidence in front of such a committee where there were people from Germany and the Netherlands. CHAIRPERSON Are you then saying that because they knew that you flew these people out from Vlakplaas they did know about the existence of Vlakplaas? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, that such a group exists? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DE KOCK Yes, because these askaris had to have a place to stay, to come from. They were looked after, they were part of the force, they were part of Special Forces. I cannot say that they knew where Vlakplaas was, that is now according to a map, but Minister Vlok did know about it as well as various Generals. If I say various, there were a large number of them who knew about it. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR HUGO Yes, Mr de Kock, that is one side the spectrum of the Security Forces and that is they knew about what Vlakplaas did. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, your normal uniform person did not know where Vlakplaas was. MR HUGO But in terms of the political opponents, the ANC and the PAC, did they know? Did they have solid knowledge of where Vlakplaas was and that it existed? MR DE KOCK No, they did make accusations, but they could prove nothing. CHAIRPERSON That is why I'm asking this, allegations were made about a third force and I know it was denied, but did parliament or the Ministers, except for Vlok, according to knowledge, did they try to find out if this exists before they deny anything? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, nothing was done about this, but if they did it they would have found the truth. I can for example refer to handgrenades that were traced back to us and that was done through details which were got at Sonkem in the Cape, and it was police handgrenades, but that was covered up. MR HUGO And what did you think would have happened if Andreiowitch for example made certain revelations of his participation in the Chand incident in Botswana, what would the effect have been for the ANC? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it would have been a substantiating fact for them, not just of their allegations but also that they were correct in the fact that what was denied at that stage was the truth. MR HUGO And would it then substance to the rumours that there was still a third force involved in the destabilisation of the country? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HUGO Then lastly, the political motive. You deal with that on page 73, 72, and that is with Vlakplaas after the disbanning of certain political parties - I don't want to go through the whole thing, but in effect you say that Vlakplaas even after the disbanning of the ANC, still continued and operated and were involved in actions as they were before the disbanning of the ANC. MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HUGO And then just to come back to the aspect concerning what Judge Khampepe asked you, and that is about the person who was killed, you never had a political motive in terms of the victim? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR HUGO Your motivation was to protect the government of the day. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, and then also to protect the Harms Commission and the Security Police as such. MR HUGO If it was suggested that you did it for in terms of the personal friendship that you had with Andreiowitch, did you have a personal relationship with him? MR DE KOCK No, he was a member when he was with us and he was just under my command. MR HUGO Did you get any financial benefit in this operation? MR DE KOCK No. MR HUGO I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO MR DE KOCK Can I just mention that I take responsibility for my own actions and also then for a member that worked for me, and that is Mr Snyman. That is just for completion. ADV BOSMAN I just want to ask you, what were the circumstances under which this limpet mine was handed over to Mr Andreiowitch? Did you ask somebody to do it, or did you do it yourself? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, as far as I can remember I asked somebody and it would have been one of two people, Mr Snyman or Vermeulen, to provide me with this equipment. It was locked up at a premises near Walmansdal. And I asked them to bring it to me with two MEV2 detonators. That I can still remember. ADV BOSMAN Did you tell them what it's going to be used for? MR DE KOCK No, I cannot remember. I do not have any independent recollection concerning this. ADV BOSMAN What would have been your normal procedure in this, would you have explained to them why you needed it or would you have just requested it? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it depended on the circumstances, I could have told the person "There's trouble in Springs or there are people with problems, get two", but I think in this case I would have kept it short, I would have dealt with it one-to-one. ADV BOSMAN It probably wouldn't have worked if you told all and sundry why you wanted to use this thing or why you needed it? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Mr de Kock, there are weapons and ammunition stored at Vlakplaas. MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS And you were in control of it. MR DE KOCK Yes. MR CORNELIUS And the explosives, as we've seen in several other amnesty hearings, was used amongst others, for training and certain operations. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Your instructions were given to the footsoldiers and they executed them to the point, is that correct? MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And in answer to Adv Bosman's question, you worked on a need-to-know basis. MR DE KOCK Yes. MR CORNELIUS It wasn't expected from a footsoldier to ask the Commander "Well why must I provide you with two limpet mines"? MR DE KOCK No. MR CORNELIUS The footsoldiers also had trust in your decisions and that you worked within the political milieux and that you did take a well-informed decision. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR CORNELIUS In answer to Judge Pillay's question, is it true that some of these members were rewarded and that Minister Vlok attended these meetings? MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And if you recall, in the hearing of Cosatu House and Khotso House, can you remember where these instructions came from? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it came from the highest ranks. Amongst others, in the Cosatu incident when I asked Gen Schoon "From how high does it come", he said to me "From the highest level." When I asked him "What is the highest level, is it the President?", he said yes. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR CORNELIUS Yes, and it is also made known in the finding of the Amnesty Committee which was given to us on the 10th December 1999. ...(transcriber's interpretation) And do you know of the fact that - I'm talking about the incident of the London bomb, did this happen there too? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR CORNELIUS So there can be no doubt that some of the actions did occur with the knowledge of the Minsters. MR DE KOCK Yes, that is true. I can also mention that in the incident of the London bomb we also flew somebody in from Oshikati to Pretoria and from Pretoria to London. CHAIRPERSON Mr de Kock, why I asked that question is, I cannot understand why all these people made allegations of third forces and then the fact that the previous government may have been responsible for the bombing in London, but that if some of the Ministers did not know of Vlakplaas or the actions of Vlakplaas, they would have been able to find out. I cannot imagine that up today they still do not know or couldn't have known of Vlakplaas. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I would like to mention two aspects that would help you in this. You do not ask me for it but I'll just give it for clarity's sake. That is that in 1993 there was an attack in Umtata, this attack was executed by a military unit and at that stage ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Is that that coup that you are talking about? MNR DE KOCK We have three of the best Intelligence Services in this country, we've got the military, the police and they can tell us now what somebody's eating in London, but they cannot tell us what happened in Pretoria, that is just not logic. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR CORNELIUS For example Mr de Kock, if a bomb is planted in the middle of Johannesburg, no questions are asked? MR DE KOCK Yes, we have a braai and the General is there and the Minister's there, but no questions are asked. MR CORNELIUS Yes and for your actions in London you received an SOE medal and all the people who were involved with you? MR DE KOCK Just to talk about this medal, that was given only to Generals and not to Lieutenants. It was only given to Generals in terms of that. According to rank, it's abnormal for a person under the rank of a General to get that type of decoration. MR CORNELIUS: I do not know what the Latin name is but it is a medal for exceptional service. MR DE KOCK They probably thought that we deserved it. MR CORNELIUS It is apparently the highest honour that you can receive. MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN Mr de Kock, just to return to the incident itself, on the day that you were visited by Mr Andreiowitch and Mr Odendaal, was Mr Andreiowitch no longer a member of Vlakplaas? MR DE KOCK No, he wasn't. MR CLAASSEN For how long at that point was he no longer a member? MR DE KOCK I don't know. I cannot speculate, but he hadn't been gone for that long. MR CLAASSEN I want to put it to you Mr de Kock that in your amnesty application you stated that Andreiowitch had been stationed at Vlakplaas previously from approximately 1989 to the end of 1990. Would you say that that is correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, that would be my means of estimation. I don't have any dates at my disposal. MR CLAASSEN So we are looking at approximately a year and a half that he had been away? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR CLAASSEN Mr de Kock, Mr Andreiowitch and Mr Odendaal were both demolitions experts? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR CLAASSEN And you were aware of this? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR CLAASSEN When they came to see you on that particular day and asked you for your assistance, what was your initial reaction, when they explained to you what had happened? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, my immediate reaction was that I didn't want to hear about it. This was one of the reasons why I decided not to become personally involved in this situation. MR CLAASSEN Very well, but that would be my specific question then. In your application you state that you told Andreiowitch that you were not prepared in the concealment or the desecration of the body. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR CLAASSEN Why is that so? MR DE KOCK As I have already stated, at that stage I had led a very long and difficult and bloody life, especially when it came to internal and cross-border operations, and I had had my fill. I was finished. MR CLAASSEN Despite the fact that you didn't want to get involved, you gave them the explosives and the limpet mines. Why did you do this? MR DE KOCK I realised that if Mr Andreiowitch were to be arrested and charged and convicted ultimately, it would expose everything that we had managed to bury about Vlakplaas. There would be investigations and it could place Vlakplaas and the Government in a very precarious position. MR CLAASSEN But Mr Andreiowitch was at that stage no longer involved with Vlakplaas. Why would it have been exposed in the event of his arrest? MR DE KOCK During the Harms Commission we denied that we had foreign weapons such as AK's. We denied that we possessed limpet mines. We denied that we had acted in neighbouring countries. We also denied that we had killed people in neighbouring countries, that we were acting on a cress-border basis, that we were launching attacks. On the contrary, with regard to the Chand incident, the attack on Botswana during which Mr Andreiowitch himself was involved and was also involved in the killing, I had injured my kneecap in that operation and I sat before the Harms Commission with my knee in plaster and stated that I'd injured it elsewhere. Mr Andreiowitch had it within his power to interfere with all that evidence. MR CLAASSEN What could he have said if you had refused to assist him? MR DE KOCK I relied on my deep and intrinsic knowledge of the movements of Nofomela and Coetzee and what that had resulted in for us and that ultimately with a guilty conviction, he would have spoken out about it, whether it be for mitigating circumstances or whatever his reason was. MR CLAASSEN But that is speculation. We are studying the abduction and murder of the deceased. You yourself are drawing the inference that he would simply have provided information regarding Vlakplaas, even though he was no longer a member of the unit. MR DE KOCK At that stage I had spent 13 years with covert operations. I had seen, not only here but in Ovamboland as well, what happened when people became alcoholics or began to feel guilty about what they had done and defected with regard to what they had done. I myself am a case in point. JUDGE KHAMPEPE If I may interpose there, Mr Claassen. What I would be interested in knowing, Mr de Kock is, what character traits did Mr Andreiowitch possess that made you believe that he had this capacity to spill the beans about Vlakplaas's activities? MR DE KOCK Chairperson it wouldn't only have been what he himself had been involved with, it would also have been what he came to hear of from other members. We worked in compartments. People talked, there was additional information. We denied possession of any Russian weapons while we had tons of such weapons. All of these things would once again have led to new information, new investigations, new commissions and then this was also contemporary, it is not something that happened 8 or 10 years ago, this was something which took place 6 months ago. ADV BOSMAN I don't think that you understood my colleague quite correctly. Perhaps I could assist here. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. ADV BOSMAN What character traits did Mr Andreiowitch possess that led you to believe that he would spill the beans if you didn't help him? MR DE KOCK The choice between a sentence of 12 to 15 years and mitigating circumstances would have brought him to more insightful ideas. ADV BOSMAN Well what sort of a person was Mr Andreiowitch? MR DE KOCK He was loyal. I don't know whether he was strong enough in the spiritual or psychological sense to be able to endure a lengthy prison sentence, especially under the harsh conditions of the prison system. I don't believe that he would have been able to endure that. That is my belief. JUDGE KHAMPEPE But I'm still not in a position to be quite clear in my mind, what really moved you to accede to his request. Was he a person who had a weak character who, when approached under pressure, would break easily? I mean, you had worked with this person for quite some time. Something that would have led you to believe that if you did not accede to his request with regard to the explosives that he and Odendaal were seeking, he would rush to the person that you least wanted to hear about the activities of Vlakplaas? What is it that made you believe that he would be the person that would be like Nofomela? I mean, we know Nofomela was able to spill the beans because of his peculiar situation. MR DE KOCK Chairperson yes, I can only state that one of the aspects which I bore in mind was those who killed Mr Khanyile, could have buried him at any place. They could have tossed his body down a mine shaft, but then he came to me, he came to ask me and I responded with a no and they would be charged at some point and convicted and then I would be the person that, if I'd helped him it wouldn't have happened and then one would have looked for a reason as to why he would make his misfortune mine. I cannot offer any other explanation. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps I can put this in a easier way. What led you to believe that if you did not assist him, it would be possible that he would go to the press or whoever and tell them the story? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, this is something that I foresaw from an operational perspective, especially in light of the past, that such a situation could originate. CHAIRPERSON Would that fall in with the character of such a person? MR DE KOCK Yes, I don't believe that he would have been able to endure the pressure that I endured. I doubt this very seriously. JUDGE KHAMPEPE In that case Mr de Kock, you see we are talking about enduring the pressure and that pressure would presumably have come from being interrogated by the police. Is that the kind of pressure that you are referring to? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, one wouldn't know to what point it would have been necessary to pressurise him, what would have to be done in order to get him to talk. It could have been anything. I cannot speculate about that now, it's very difficult for me, but it could have been anything which would have persuaded him to talk, had he been under arrest. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. Was he the type of person who would have, of his own volition, gone to the press if you did not accede to his request? MR DE KOCK No Chairperson, I wouldn't say that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you. ADV BOSMAN Mr de Kock, can I just put it to you somewhat differently because it is somewhat bothersome to me? Was it necessary for Mr Andreiowitch and his colleagues to come to you? Didn't they possess enough knowledge to be able to dispose of the body and to ensure their own safety? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, that is why I said, they could have buried the man themselves. They could simply have obtained dynamite from a mine and then set up a stockpile. I don't know why they deemed it necessary to come to me, but they were there and they were seeking assistance. CHAIRPERSON The deceased was taken away from his place of employment. The employers knew who took him away? MR DE KOCK That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Wouldn't it have been more feasible not only to get rid of the body, but to destroy the body, so that nobody would be able to say who it was? MR DE KOCK Yes, certainly, Chairperson. I was not completely up to date with how the man was removed, whether they took him away from work secretively. I heard that he was picked up from work, but I was not completely informed as to how the entire scene unfolded and the subsequent alibi which had to be formulated, that is why I didn't become involved. How they decided they would manage the matter and who would be involved, is something that we will have to determine. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Claassen, we interposed whilst you were cross-examining Mr de Kock. You may proceed. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Madam. Mr de Kock, you have just remarked that you didn't want to get involved. MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR CLAASSEN Isn't it correct that you did get involved ultimately? MR DE KOCK Yes, with regard to the supply of the limpet mines. MR CLAASSEN That was of your own free will, no one forced you into the situation? MR DE KOCK No. MR CLAASSEN In your evidence-in-chief you stated that Mr Andreiowitch was like a soldier, he followed orders. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR CLAASSEN At that stage you were no longer his Commander and it was not his responsibility to report to you? MR DE KOCK No. MR CLAASSEN In your evidence-in-chief you also stated that you had the idea that they might not have meant to kill the person that they picked up? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR CLAASSEN Could it be that they made a mistake? MR DE KOCK It is possible. MR CLAASSEN Was that your impression? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR CLAASSEN They did not act in their scope as policemen, they did something which was in essence criminal? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I don't know. The arrest may have been lawful in terms of their status as policemen, but with regard to the consequent assault, that would have been unlawful. MR CLAASSEN And you were aware of that? They admitted this to you? MR DE KOCK Yes, well the man died. MR CLAASSEN Were you under the impression that these people were in trouble? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR CLAASSEN You had a choice not to get involved in the criminality of these persons, but you preferred to supply them with explosives? MR DE KOCK It wasn't a question of preference, Chairperson, I observed the possibilities and the possibilities were that if Mr Andreiowitch were ever to be charged, it could create problems for us. MR CLAASSEN But it was your free will? MR DE KOCK It wasn't that free, if one studies the possibilities. In that regard one had to think on an operational level and then one had to start thinking unlawfully as our cross-border and internal operations were. MR CLAASSEN But with regard to this specific incident, you have admitted that your political objective would have been to protect the Government of the day? MR DE KOCK Yes, and the Security Police. MR CLAASSEN But through implying yourself as a member of Vlakplaas, didn't you create even greater potential problems for the Government, rather than had you stayed out of it? MR DE KOCK Yes, today, but not then. MR CLAASSEN Why do you say that? MR DE KOCK Because nothing leaked out afterwards, nothing about Mr Khanyile's death leaked out. MR CLAASSEN Which could very well have been the case if Andreiowitch and Odendaal had gotten rid of the body and you were not involved at all? MR DE KOCK If I hadn't known anything, the same would have happened. MR CLAASSEN My statement to you is once again, there was no necessity for your involvement. MR DE KOCK I could have turned around and walked away, I'm sure I could have done that, but I didn't. MR CLAASSEN Mr de Kock, just one further aspect. In your application, your written application you stated that Andreiowitch did not ask you to help them. Did you refer to him and Odendaal? MR DE KOCK No as far as I understood there were seven to eight persons in the mini bus, so it was a larger group. MR CLAASSEN But it was only Andreiowitch and Odendaal who saw you? MR DE KOCK I was approached by the two of them. MR CLAASSEN Alone? MR DE KOCK Yes, at that stage. MR CLAASSEN You say that they never gave the name of the person who they needed to get rid of to you? MR DE KOCK No. MR CLAASSEN And you never became aware of the identity of the deceased until these proceedings? MR DE KOCK It may have been in the papers, but I don't have an independent recollection of this, it is possible that it may have been mentioned in the papers. MR CLAASSEN I have no further questions for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Mr de Kock, is it true to say that generally Vlakplaas was, during that time, viewed as an elite force? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, yes, some people said that. MS PATEL And a possible basis for that perception was that personnel of Vlakplaas more specifically at least those who were not askaris, were persons who had specialised skills, they weren't just ordinary members of the police force that had joined Vlakplaas, you needed to be a cut above the rest in order to join Vlakplaas. MR DE KOCK In most instances yes, it was the case. CHAIRPERSON What were the requirements then for somebody to join Vlakplaas? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, firstly I did not do selection of it, it happened in Pretoria, to find out if there were any left-wing connotations, but then you have to look at it realistically and it must be in line with the policy of the day. In most instances the people came from situations where they already underwent an explosives course. In my instance, all my members were members from the old koevoet unit. All of them had the means and ability to be fighters and they knew their explosives. CHAIRPERSON I'm trying to get to something else. That they received training concerning things, that I understand, but the people at Vlakplaas did very strange things. MR DE KOCK That is true, yes. CHAIRPERSON And then many people ask in terms of humanitarian things, how could they have done it and that is what I want to know now. Regarding that specifically, how were the people chosen? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, most of these people came, like I said, from an operational background. It was not a pre-requisite for a person to be able to kill but these people did have the ability to cross that border and to cross that barrier if necessary and that was not in service of himself, or for self-gratification, but in service of the State. CHAIRPERSON You see, in one of the hearings something came out or arose that a group of people, including Johan Coetzee, killed people and threw the bodies in a hole and burned them. At the same time they had a braai and were drinking beer, while the bodies were burning. COUNSEL Sorry, you know the press might be reporting on this and you said Johan Coetzee, which was the General, now he's going to be very aggrieved when he hears this. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, sorry, it was Dirk Coetzee. I'm sorry. I just thought about this and I was thinking, how could a human being do something like this? Would they have received training to be able to do this? MR DE KOCK No Mr Chairperson, you will find that most of the people who were there, including Dirk Coetzee, and I would say that probably 90% of the members of my unit, all received or went through service in the former Rhodesia where, at that stage when we got there, things were already horrendous. I served in Rhodesia just when I turned 18 and in other cases or incidents apart from Rhodesia, they also underwent service in the North of Ovamboland where I also served and I can assure you, you become completely desensitised, your sense of values and of life, your own life, it starts to change. It doesn't matter if you yourself came out of this alive, or not and I think that is one of the aspects that can get that person to cross that barrier. It's not really different from the tyre murders, it does boil down to the same thing, if you burn that person with wood or burn with a tyre, it's the same thing. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. In light of what you have just told us, Mr de Kock, that Vlakplaas personnel, who generally had a specialised skill, that they were operationally trained, a lot of them came from koevoet, I want to put it to you that your allegation that Andreiowitch would not have been able to withstand a term in prison, is not only speculation but it is extremely far fetched. MR DE KOCK No Mr Chairperson, it's something that one foresees. I cannot say that it would have happened, but it is something that I did foresee. MS PATEL But given his experience it would have been unlikely that he would have cracked, not so? MR DE KOCK That is speculation then. I do not know, some of the members of my unit and from CCB who decided to come to this Commission and talk because the alternative is going to jail if they do not apply for amnesty and these people are harder, or top level soldiers and not one of them wants to go to jail. It's not because they're doing it for a moral reason, they are foreseeing a possible jail sentence. MS PATEL Alright. Did you attempt to refuse to assist Andreiowitch when he came to you with the request? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson no, I did not chase him away. As I said, I am not going to get involved in the situation. MS PATEL Alright. Your Counsellors led you on Andreiowitch's involvement in the Chand incident. I would just like to put the record straight in respect of that. You stated that if Andreiowitch had given information on his involvement with the Chand incident, it would have had an effect on the ANC. However we know that the political party that was involved in the Chand incident or the political opponent that was involved in the Chand incident, was in fact the PAC, not so? MR DE KOCK Yes, Mr Chairperson, that is correct. MS PATEL So your speculation about the effects on the ANC in respect, by relying on the Chand incident, are completely misplaced? MR DE KOCK No Mr Chairperson, it would have substantiated the ANC further and it is something that we have denied since 89. MS PATEL At that stage you stated in your evidence to us at the very beginning of the de Kock hearings, that you were somewhat disappointed with the National Party and that was the reason that you had become an IFP member at that time, not so? MR DE KOCK That is correct, yes. MS PATEL Alright. Now given that Mr Khanyile was an IFP member, an active member of the IFP, in fact he was also going to assist the Security Branch after he was detained as Mr Oosthuizen, sorry, Mr Odendaal has stated in his supplementary, or in his affidavit to us, I refer you to page 2 paragraph 4.2 of his affidavit to us, how do you reconcile your loyalties in terms of you wanting to protect the National Party Government at that stage and on the other hand, your involvement in covering up the murder of an active and what, by all counts, seems to be a very good IFP member? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, at that stage in 1992 I found myself within the gears, or the moving or the changes and I did not find myself in a very easy or comfortable position and it was not a question of disloyalty or a choice of loyalty, but I did what was the best for the National Party and for the Security Police. I was always a member of the Force and that was my priority. MS PATEL I want to put it to you Sir, because I will argue this later, that there is in fact a contradiction between your loyalties and your involvement in this matter. MR DE KOCK I will leave it then for argument. MS PATEL Then just finally, you've stated that your main concern in assisting Andreiowitch was that he then would not find himself in a position where he would at some stage have to choose between his possible prison sentence, if he was found guilty of the murder, and also in giving out information that he had gained whilst he was involved at Vlakplaas. What attempts did you make to ensure that he would not in fact be incriminated? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, in the Lambethe report, I reported to Lambethe and I also kept myself out of it. I did what I could do, spoke to Gen Engelbrecht and from then on, kept myself neutral or took a neutral stance. MS PATEL I didn't get the name of the person you reported to. You said you spoke to Engelbrecht, and who did you report to? MR DE KOCK It was the same person. MS PATEL Well, we know from what happened subsequently, that not only was Mr Khanyile found in traces of the clothing that he had worn on the day that he was in fact taken from the workplace, but his I.D. card had been found on the scene. MR DE KOCK I do not know anything about that. MS PATEL Alright. And we also know that from the way in which the Inquest had gone, that nobody was found responsible for Mr Khanyile's murder. MR DE KOCK I understood that there was an investigation. It was a formal investigation and that no-one was charged with it and that is the information that I received, or had. CHAIRPERSON ...(not translated) MR DE KOCK I do not know Mr Chairperson. I kept myself neutral. I was in a neutral stance. CHAIRPERSON Did those two testify? MS PATEL Who are you referring to? Is it Odendaal? CHAIRPERSON Odendaal and ... MS PATEL He did. CHAIRPERSON And Andreiowitch? MS PATEL Andreiowitch, they did. CHAIRPERSON And how did they explain the arrest and what happened to the deceased thereafter? MS PATEL The version that was given was that Mr Khanyile was in fact released and that he was dropped off at the Ratanga, I think it's a taxi rank or bus station and if I recall correctly, there was an allegation also that Mr Khanyile, after they'd made inquiries, was in fact last seen in the Natal region. And then also to cover their tracks up, I believe one of the police officers went back to work looking for Mr Khanyile after he'd in fact been murdered. So that is how they in fact covered their tracks, Honourable Chairperson. So I want to put it to you, in the light of all of that, Mr de Kock, that your alleged attempt to ensure that Andreiowitch was not placed in a position where, in a compromising position, let me put it that way, really made no difference because at the end of the day they covered their tracks anyway. MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, I would like to refer to one of the instances where somebody in the Goldstone Commission was placed under pressure and that was Mr Nortje. The choice was, he will be charged, he will go to jail or he will be under a witness protection plan, you tell us everything and you will get a job afterwards. They could have put him into jail, killed him maybe fourteen days later. Mr Nortje was with me in Ovamboland, he was with me in every single attack or contact session. It did not work. Mr Andreiowitch was not a person that was at all - he wasn't a person who would be able to cope with such a circumstance. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL MR HUGO Thank you Mr Chairman, just one aspect. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Mr de Kock, you just gave evidence or testified on a question of the Panel that your personal feeling was that you'd rather fight to the end? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HUGO Logically speaking, it then follows that if you left Andreiowitch and not help he and he was then charged and then the circumstances that would then take place that you foresaw, it would have then led to the fact that you had to then fight to the end? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is true. MR HUGO Because then you testified that your perception was that ...(indistinct) negotiations would then fall apart. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HUGO Well what is it then that made you take this decision to still assist them? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, in this instance at Vlakplaas, myself as Commander of Vlakplaas, and the Government would then fall apart. There's no doubt about it. MR HUGO Can I then summarise it and then say that your loyalty to the Government then was above your own interests at that stage? MR DE KOCK That is correct, yes. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO ADV BOSMAN Mr de Kock, just a question concerning your mention of the Harms Commission. It is maybe not quite relevant to your application. Did you see the Harms Commission as a smoke screen? Did you take it seriously? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, we took it seriously in the sense that every possible coverup and perjury we could, and that is to protect the Security Police and also the Government. ADV BOSMAN Were you organised, were you prepared to mislead the Harms Commission? MR DE KOCK Yes, by means of statements, burning of documents, some of the members went to go and get documents from other stations, it was handed over to the Generals and it was then destroyed. Our files were emptied. My personal file was emptied. ADV BOSMAN Who took this initiative in this operation to mislead the Harms Commission? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson in previous evidence, it was Liebenberg from the Detective Branch, they were transferred to the Security Police, General van Rensburg who at that stage was the Commander and then from there it went up to a high level. It was then controlled from there. ADV BOSMAN What do you mean when you say it was a high level? MR DE KOCK Well, Mr Chairperson, I did not liaise with the head of the Security Branch. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you Mr Chair. Mr de Kock, what I think in my mind is of cardinal importance, one of the issues which are of cardinal importance is why you saw a need to assist Mr Andreiowitch and Mr Odendaal and you have gone to quite an elaborate extent to respond to questions which have come both from the Panel and from the other legal representatives. What I want to know however is, you were always alive to the risk of information about Vlakplaas's operations or activities, having a potential of being revealed by either members of Vlakplaas or former members of Vlakplaas and that was a risk that you must have been alive to at all times. What steps, as a person who was directly in charge of Vlakplaas, did you take to try and prevent or discourage, or minimise such risk eventuating? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson we killed people. I'm now talking about a former member of the ANC, an askari, who then later became a policeman, Ngulunga, when it appeared from Gen van Rensburg that this person made contact with the ANC, he already made contact with them, then we killed him. We are talking about a person now, a man in Durban, who was involved in the arrest of the Pule Deal, he threatened to talk, I went to go and kill him. We were requested by Durban, we are talking about Dirk Coetzee and the bomb that we sent him in the earphones. That was the type of action that we took. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes and in the case of Mr Andreiowitch, did you first try to ascertain the risk that might have been there in him having to expose Valkplaas's operations? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, it's difficult to say. We are talking about an operational level or experience that you gained from operations, that you apply to the present, so it is difficult, so let us take the following instance. Let us say that Mr Andreiowitch decided two months later to make a statement. It worries him and then we get to know about this from Head Office, then it could have led to is death to prevent him from talking, but that is all speculation. JUDGE KHAMPEPE The reason why I'm asking this question is as you have previously stated that Mr Andreiowitch was possessed of the necessary skill to have killed this person without having to ask for your assistance. You must obviously have been quite surprised when he came to you to ask for the explosives which you could have obtained from any other place, other than having to come to your unit or to come to you as a person. Did you feel that he was tempting you in many ways, I mean this was a person who could have committed the deed without having to ask for your intervention. MR DE KOCK Chairperson yes, I cannot or I do not know what his motives were. They did need assistance and maybe I was the easiest or closest person. They knew we had the equipment and we did have the means to help them. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Did you believe that he was tempting you for any other reason? MR DE KOCK I do not think that he tempted me in any way and it's just a thought that just occurred to me and that is, I cannot see that Mr Andreiowitch would come to me for explosives or for assistance for a person who is already dead and then say that this person was recruited. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Why is Mr de Kock applying for amnesty, or for what? MR HUGO Amnesty in respect of two offences, the one is the unlawful possession of explosives and the other one ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Was that unlawful? MR HUGO Mr Chairman, yes, it was unlawful and we deal with that in the Vlakplaas submission, saying exactly how they obtained those explosives and then the other offence that we're asking amnesty for is defeating the ends of justice and then obviously the third leg is any delicts that had been committed and that flow from the events and the facts of this particular ... CHAIRPERSON Or flow out of the commission of these two criminal deeds. MR HUGO That's correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr de Kock. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius, is your client going to be long? MR CORNELIUS I in jest said to the Evidence Leader, I'm known for my brevity. It will be very short. I think there's very few matters in issue. I would be please if I could call him. Thank you Mr Chair. I call Mr Snyman.