amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-03-01 JOHANNESBURG 3 ANDRIAS MATANZIMA NOSENGA AM2778/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54063&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200301jh.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON We'll now proceed with the next matter that's on the roll, that is the application of Mr Andrias Matanzima Nosenga. I've already introduced the Panel but for those of you who were not here, on my right is Advocate Nsiki Sandi, he is an advocate from East London and a member of the Amnesty Committee. On my left is Mr Wynand Malan, Commissioner of the Truth and Reconciliation Commissioner, member of the Amnesty Committee from Johannesburg and I'm Selwyn Miller, a judge of the High Court attached to the Transkei division thereof. I'd like to at this stage request the legal representatives please to place themselves on record? MS TANZER Thank you, my name is Goldie Tanzer and I am the attorney representing the applicant in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Tanzer. MR DRAHT Chairperson, I'm Heiko Draht from Heiko Draht Attorneys, I'm represent an interest of Induna Mkhize. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Draht. MR VAN DER HEYDE Mr Chairperson, I'm Chris van der Heyde from J H van der Merwe Attorneys, I represent the implicated person Prince Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr van der Heyde. ADV STEENKAMP Honourable Chairperson, my name is Steenkamp, I will be the Evidence Leader. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Steenkamp. Ms Tanzer, are you in a position to commence? MS TANZER Yes I am. CHAIRPERSON And I take it your client will be testifying? MS TANZER Yes he shall be testifying. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ANDRIAS MATANZIMA NOSENGA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER Thank you Chairperson. Andrias, on page 84 of the bundle there's an application, a form 1 application for amnesty, which has been filled out, did you fill this form out, did you complete this form? Page 84, 85, 86, for the Commission's attention. MR NOSENGA No it was my attorney who assisted me. MS TANZER Is this your signature on page 86 at the bottom? MR NOSENGA Yes it is. MS TANZER Now on page 87 there's another form 1 application which has once again been completed. Has this been completed by yourself? Is this your handwriting? MR NOSENGA I only gave a statement to my attorney, it is possible that she or he filled it out for me. MS TANZER So you did not write it yourself? MR NOSENGA No I did not. MS TANZER On page 92 of the bundle is a signature, is that your signature? MR NOSENGA Yes it is. MS TANZER And then on page 94 and 95 of the bundle there is a letter that is addressed Dear Sir or Madam and it is signed Matansima, did you - is this letter written in your handwriting? MR NOSENGA No. MS TANZER Is that your signature? MR NOSENGA Yes it is. MS TANZER Now on page 96 to 98 there's an unsigned affidavit, have you ever seen this typed affidavit? MR NOSENGA No. MS TANZER Nothing that you could recognise, is that right? MR NOSENGA No. MS TANZER Now on page 99, 100, 101, 102, 103 and 104, there's an affidavit which is typed, you obviously couldn't type it but there's an initial on each page, is this your initial? MR NOSENGA Yes it is. MS TANZER And you remember that this statement was taken at the Leeukop Prison, if I'm correct, stand to be corrected? CHAIRPERSON I think it's Vanderbijlpark. MS TANZER Vanderbijlpark. CHAIRPERSON But it was made on or about - I'm not quite sure of the date, 17th January of last year 1999? MS TANZER Right, so you verify this fact? MR NOSENGA I have made many statements so I am not sure. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Ms Tanzer, the unsigned affidavit that appears on pages 96 to 98 we can just disregard that? MS TANZER I think that would be disregarded because ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He doesn't recognise it or anything? MS TANZER He has no knowledge, yes. CHAIRPERSON And we don't know who took it or who typed it or whatever? MS TANZER Exactly, we can't claim ownership to that. CHAIRPERSON I think we will just disregard it. MS TANZER As the Committee pleases. Now Andrias, in your application in form 1, right, and your various statements there seems to be a discrepancy regarding your date of birth. Can you clarify for the Committee if you know when you were born and what date you were born if you know? MR NOSENGA I was born in 1973 on the 14th February. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS TANZER As the Committee pleases. Can you tell the Committee where you were born? MR NOSENGA In Everton. MS TANZER Can you tell the Committee when you left Everton and when you arrived at the Kwamadala Hostel? MR NOSENGA I left Everton in 1991. I went to the hostel during the same year although I do not remember the month. MS TANZER Can you briefly tell the Committee why you left Everton to go to the Kwamadala Hostel, why did you have to join the Kwamadala Hostel? MR NOSENGA I had friends in the ANC although I was apolitical. On a certain occasion a garage was burnt down and I was implicated in that incident. When I explained that I knew about the incident but was not informed they did not listen to me but they kidnapped me and took me to somebody's garage. There were about three or four of us at that garage. Whilst we were still there a girl was brought in or rather, a girl opened a window and she assisted me in escaping through that window and that was when I left the township for the Kwamadala Hostel. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Nosenga, was there any reason why you went to Kwamadala in particular or did you just happen to land up there by chance? Why did you go to Kwamadala and not some other place? MR NOSENGA The reason was that I realised my life was at risk in the township and I was not involved in politics. I decided to go to Kwamadala Hostel because there were other people from Sebokeng who had fled there. MS TANZER So it was a haven for people who were running from the township is that correct? MR NOSENGA Yes, people whose homes were burnt down would go to Kwamadala Hostel. Most of us were from Sebokeng, Everton and Sharpeville. MS TANZER When you arrived at the hostel did you join the IFP party? MR NOSENGA That is correct. MS TANZER Are you still a member of the IFP party? MR NOSENGA That is correct, I remain a member. MS TANZER Now when you were staying at the Kwamadala Hostel can you explain to the Committee what happened what led to your arrest? Can you describe the event that occurred that led to your arrest? Sorry, let me elaborate, describe the event that led to the arrest for the sentence of which you are sitting right now currently. MR NOSENGA I went to Parys and we went there to steal a vehicle but I was arrested before I could do that. Apparently there were policemen from Vanderbijlpark who had reported that to the Parys police officers. I was fetched by Peens who took me to Flora Gardens. They then questioned me about the vehicle. They then took me to Houtkop where I was taken to Mr Havenga's office who questioned me on the shootings that occurred in Sebokeng in 1992. Havenga wanted to know who was responsible for shooting people in Sebokeng and I told him that I did not know who was responsible. Peens and other police officers tortured me. From there I was taken to Vereeniging. From there I was then charged with the crime for which I'm serving sentence. CHAIRPERSON I think what Ms Tanzer wants you to tell us about are those crimes for which you are serving sentence, those are the ones that are subject of this amnesty application. MS TANZER If the Commissioner would allow me just to elaborate? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS TANZER Can you tell us what happened in 1992 prior to the Boipatong arrest. There were drive by shootings in Sebokeng and Zone 12. Describe in full detail to the best of your ability everything you know about the drive by shootings in Sebokeng and Zone 12. Don't leave out the details. MR NOSENGA I was just trying to explain how I came to be arrested. I arrived at the hostel in 1991. In 1992 on the 15th June Mtwana Zulu called us to his room, that is myself and Sipho Majosi as well as Tswi. MS TANZER Tswi? MR NOSENGA Tswi. T-S-W-I and Hans Ndlovu as well as Jabu who is now deceased. He said that since we are from the township of Sebokeng we should go and shoot at the township residents there, the ANC people there. He then called Daki Xongo who brought firearms. Mtwana Zulu then prepared Indelesi for us to drink. When we did so he informed us that the Indelesi would make us strong and brave and we drank it and sprinkled some on our clothes. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before you proceed Mr Nosenga, what sort of firearms did you get. Were they pistols or AK-47s? What sort of firearms? MR NOSENGA They were AK-47s as well as ...(indistinct) guns. CHAIRPERSON What did you personally have in your possession? MR NOSENGA I think I had an AK-47. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may proceed. MR NOSENGA We were informed that we would use Tswi's Ford to conduct the attack. We then got into the Ford. Tswi was driving. I left the hostel. We then proceeded towards Sebokeng using the main road joining Sebokeng and Vanderbijlpark. We passed Kwamasisa Hostel. When we arrived in Zone Thirteen we stopped and there were people standing around there. We then started firing at those people who were waiting at the bus stop. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, so you say it was Zone 13? I thought I heard it was Zone 12. Is it Zone 13 or 12? MR NOSENGA The two Zones 12 and 13 are next to one another but we attacked at Zone 13. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Nosenga, when you stay you stopped did you shoot from inside the car or did you get out of the car and approach the people who you shot at? MR NOSENGA The car was driving very slowly so we would shoot through the windows and we would just stop to check whether they had died or not. CHAIRPERSON And these people, Mr Nosenga, that you shot at, were they waiting at a bus stop or taxi rank or were they just ordinary pedestrians walking up or down the pavement? MR NOSENGA They were waiting at the bus stop, rather they were waiting at a taxi rank, waiting for taxis. CHAIRPERSON And could you give us just an estimation of the numbers, was it two or three or a dozen. More or less how many people were standing around and also, sorry, was it night time or day time? MR NOSENGA It was after seven in the evening. CHAIRPERSON About how many people were standing at this taxi place when you shot? MR NOSENGA There were quite a few but I cannot put a number. CHAIRPERSON Yes, sorry, you can continue. MR NOSENGA We then proceeded towards Sharpeville and there was a road that turned towards a small farm and that is where we came upon a bus. It had a caravan or it had home at the back. We passed the bus and we shot at it. That was a small farm. CHAIRPERSON Were there people in this bus? MR NOSENGA Yes there were people in the bus and it looked like they were on a trip. CHAIRPERSON Do you know whether you injured anybody or killed anybody or what? MR NOSENGA Yes I know there were people who died there. CHAIRPERSON How do you know people died there? MR NOSENGA Because I was convicted in court for those crimes. MR MALAN Whereabouts is this small farm, is it still in Sebokeng? MR NOSENGA It is in Sebokeng. CHAIRPERSON But sorry, what I meant to ask Mr Nosenga, on that night after you had done the shooting were you aware that you killed anybody or were you just aware that you had shot at a bus full of people but you didn't know whether you had hit them or not? MR NOSENGA I did not know because we did not stop but I was shown photographs of people who had died in court. MR MALAN I understand he is proceeding on the small farm. Can you just describe the place where this small farm is? I mean my understanding of Sebokeng is that there aren't small farms right within Sebokeng. Where relative to Sebokeng was this small farm on the road that you stopped? MR NOSENGA Sebokeng is part of the Vaal Triangle. Small farm is also in the Vaal Triangle. CHAIRPERSON Is this Small Farm - I don't know anything about it, is Small Farm the name of an area where people lived, it's not a small farm, it's just a name and you've mentioned you were on your way towards Sharpeville so it's between Sebokeng and Sharpeville? MR NOSENGA Small Farm is a shack area within Sebokeng. From there we went towards the direction of Everton and went towards Zone 3 on the main road. We passed a bar in central and we came across Joe's Tavern in Everton. There were people who standing around there and we shot at them. We stopped the vehicle at that point and some people fled. MS TANZER After Joe's Bar can you tell the Committee what happened next? MR NOSENGA We then drove off along the main road towards Zone 3. When we came near the clinic we then took the road towards Sebokeng and went to join Zone 12. After that we returned to Kwamadala Hostel. On arrival we went to Mtwana Zulu and informed him that we had completed the job and he was pleased. CHAIRPERSON What happened to your firearms? MR NOSENGA They were taken by Daki Xongo. We handed them over to Mr Xongo in Mtwana Zulu's room and Mtwana prepared Indelesi for us to cleanse ourselves. MS TANZER How did Mtwana Zulu express his pleasure, can you tell us? MR NOSENGA He said he was grateful that we had completed the job because the comrades were always killing us and they had chased us out of the township, our houses had been burnt down and we were even attacked on our way to town, we could no longer walk freely therefore it was better that we also attacked them and burn their houses. I myself couldn't even visit my family. MS TANZER Did you know any of the victims that you shot at in any of the areas of Sebokeng, Zone 12, Small Farm, did you know anybody that you had shot at? Was there any personal motive for shooting? MR NOSENGA It would be difficult to say I know any of them, I did not know them. MS TANZER So you had no intention of going to personally get revenge on anybody there in Sebokeng, there was no personal reason for you to going out and shooting, is that correct? MR NOSENGA Yes that is so because I was instructed on what to do, an instruction I received from Mtwana Zulu and I could not have refused because I resided at the hostel. MS TANZER Were you rewarded in any way financially or otherwise for your attack on Zone 13 and Sebokeng? MR NOSENGA No I did not benefit. MS TANZER Were you employed while you were staying at the hostel? MR MALAN Just before you proceed there expect if you still intend covering it, in your application you're referring to financial benefits. If you still then intend covering it then proceed please? MS TANZER Well I was going to come to that, I wanted to put that he had put it in. I'll come to that, thank you. MS TANZER Did you receive - were you employed whilst at the hostel? MR NOSENGA I was unemployed but I used to steal vehicles. MS TANZER So did you receive any kind of financial benefits or food packages or anything from leaders of the IFP, from the Kwamadala Hostel or from outsiders? MR NOSENGA It was this Induna who assisted us by giving us food and clothing, people like Mthembu and Mtwana Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nosenga, did you ever get paid, like if you were ordered to do something as a reward for doing that particular or fulfilling that particular order, were you paid or did you used to get this stuff, this food and clothing, regularly as a matter of course? MR NOSENGA I just received food and clothing. That is how they took care of us, I never received any money. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MALAN You said you were stealing motor vehicles, what did you do with them? MR NOSENGA Some we would sell and that is how we would be able to maintain ourselves and some we would use as spare parts for other vehicles. MR MALAN Now if you were receiving a regular income by stealing motor vehicles and selling them, why did the Induna have to provide you with food and clothing if you were maintaining yourself with these other criminal activities? MR NOSENGA This was done to all members of Inkatha and everyone resided at the hostel was treated the same but the business of stealing vehicles was something we did on the side. ADV SANDI Sorry, just explain one thing for me? I see that you keep on saying "we were stealing cars", who are you referring to when you say "we". MR NOSENGA People like Victor Keshwa, Themba Kubeka and others. Some are now late. ADV SANDI You mentioned the name, what was the other name, can you repeat the name? CHAIRPERSON Victor Keshwa and Themba Kubeka, Hans Ndlovu, Shime Ntoli. MS TANZER Were you part of Victor Keshwa's gang? MR NOSENGA That is correct. MS TANZER Keshwa being known as the Vaal Monster? MR NOSENGA That is correct. MS TANZER In your affidavit, I see on page 84, on paragraph (c) it says "did you benefit in any way financially or otherwise?" And answer is, which is written and obviously not by you: "Yes he gave me sometimes money or groceries." Can you explain this to this Commission what this means? MR NOSENGA Please repeat that question? MS TANZER In the application on page 86, from paragraph (c) there is a question that is asked of you "Did you benefit in any way financially or otherwise?" And the reply is given:" "Yes he gave me sometimes money or groceries." Did you make that statement, is that yours? CHAIRPERSON Perhaps you could just read the next answer as well maybe? MR NOSENGA That is not true, we did receive wood from Induna as well as clothing but other things we would have to buy for ourselves. MS TANZER Now it further says in paragraph (d) on the same page, it says "If so, explain the nature and extent of such benefits" and the reply is: "It differs from kinds of missions which varied from R200 and R300 or even R400." Is this what you said, is this your statement? MR NOSENGA No I do not know anything about that, I never received anything. CHAIRPERSON So you're saying Mr Nosenga that you never received cash money from the Indunas or from the IFP authority above you. You just got food and clothing from time to time but not money? MR NOSENGA What we used to receive as hostel residents was food as well as blankets. The one person who was connected to the police was Victor Keshwa. I never received any money. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MS TANZER When your statements were taken down or when the answers were completed did the lawyers that were completing these applications did they repeat it to you? Did they read it back to you, the statement, the application? MR NOSENGA They will not read back some of the statements and also for the fact that there have been a lot people who had taken statements from me so I do not know which is which. CHAIRPERSON I think also if one takes a look at page 91, that is another application form completed by the applicant in response to the same question the answer is "We were provided with groceries by the AWB (Terre'blanche) for support in the hostel." MS TANZER Do you claim ownership to that statement? MR NOSENGA No I said there were white men who arrived, I do not know whether they were AWB or not. ADV SANDI Sorry just one thing which is also related to this? At page 85 paragraph 10(a) where the applicant is asked to state the political objective for the crimes he committed, he says the objectives to achieve was to fight the communists and we were promised monies in every mission we were ordered." Did anyone make such promises to you? MR NOSENGA No, as I've already mentioned I did not receive any money. MS TANZER Can you just clarify for once and for all to this Committee if you had money where did that money come from? If you were in possession of money, that is? MR NOSENGA As I mentioned before, I could only obtain money from stealing vehicles, that is how I took care of my needs and gave some to my family. MR MALAN Do you know whether Victor Keshwa got money for any of these outings? CHAIRPERSON Shootings. MR MALAN Shootings, yes? MR NOSENGA I do not know about that, all I know is that he worked closely with the police and they used to give him money. MR MALAN You say the police used to give him money? MR NOSENGA Yes, he had friends in the police force, people like Peens, from the Florida Murder and Robbery Unit. MR MALAN Did he share any of those monies with you, did he never give you some of those monies? MR NOSENGA No, that was his personal money but we were just working together stealing cars. MR MALAN How did you know he was getting that money from the police? MR NOSENGA I was close to Victor and he told me about what was going on in his life. I used to confide in him too. MS TANZER Was any other persons convicted for the Sebokeng attacks, or the Zone 13 attacks? MR NOSENGA At that time I pointed at by B M Swaki because I was being assaulted by the police but I was afraid to point out at the other persons who were with me so I ended up being the only one being convicted. MS TANZER Now the reason why you were sitting in prison, would you say that is purely because of the instructions from Mtwana Zulu or was there any personal motive involved in your reasons for going out and shooting Zone 13 and Sebokeng? MR NOSENGA No, I did not have any personal intentions it was just an instruction that I received from Mtwana. MS TANZER And a day of this attack was the Boipatong attack, am I correct? MR NOSENGA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Ms Tanzer, just on that, it was 1992? MS TANZER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So the reference to 1993 is just an ascribe to memory ...(intervention) MS TANZER Error. CHAIRPERSON Error. MS TANZER Yes in fact it took place a day or two before the Boipatong attack. CHAIRPERSON Yes I see the Boipatong attack was on June 17th? MS TANZER Yes. CHAIRPERSON And your client when he started mentioning June 15th? MS TANZER That is correct, exactly right, that too is an error. Also for the Committee's purposes I'm not going to go into the Boipatong attack. CHAIRPERSON No, please don't. MS TANZER Yes thank you Chairperson. Thanks, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Draht, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant? MR DRAHT No Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr van der Heyde, do you have any questions that you'd like to put to the applicant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER HEYDE One minute, Mr Chairperson. Mr Nosenga, you already said you were part of Victor Keshwa's gang. What did the gang do precisely, what were their actions, what did they do? MR NOSENGA Please repeat that question? MR VAN DER HEYDE You said you were part of Victor Keshwa's gang, now what did this gang do, what were their actions, what did they go and do? MR NOSENGA As I mentioned before we used to steal vehicles and Victor was implicated in shooting people in the Vaal Triangel but my association with him was because of the vehicle that we stole. CHAIRPERSON So it was a gang in the true sense of the word, a criminal gang, Victor Keshwa's gang. They used to go and commit crimes, not necessarily political crimes? MR NOSENGA That is correct because Victor also used to sell dagga therefore our association was mainly around stealing vehicles and he also owned three vehicles that he had stolen previously. MR VAN DER HEYDE What methods did he used to get hold of the cars, did he only steal them by hot wiring them or did you sometimes hijack people to get hold of a car? MR NOSENGA We used to use a master key of some sorts and ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Was there ever hijacking of vehicles, a gang did they ever hijack vehicles? MR NOSENGA No. MR VAN DER HEYDE Did you know Victor Mthembu? MR NOSENGA Yes I do know him. MR VAN DER HEYDE Do you know Mel? MR NOSENGA I knew him to be involved with Victor's sister as well as that he is from Natal and he was employed by Iscor as well as for the fact that he was chair of the youth brigade at the hostel. MR VAN DER HEYDE I've no further questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER HEYDE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr van der Heyde. Mr Steenkamp do you have any questions that you would like to ask the applicant? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Ms Tanzer, do you have any re-examination? MS TANZER No examination, thank you Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sandi, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant? ADV SANDI Just on one point. At what stage did you become a member of the IFP? MR NOSENGA In 1991. ADV SANDI Where did you join at the IFP, was that at the Kwamadala Hostel? MR NOSENGA Yes at the Kwamadala Hostel. ADV SANDI Did you hold any portfolio in the IFP as a member? MR NOSENGA No, I was just a supporter, I did not have a position. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan, do you have any questions you'd like to ask? MR MALAN I'll try and be brief Chairperson. I refer you to page 91, the second application in the bundle. In your evidence in chief you said these were filled out by your lawyers on your instructions. They took a statement from you and they filled out the applications. Where did they get the reference to AWB? Did you refer to the AWB? Terre'blanche? MR NOSENGA It could be that they did not understand me well but I do not know where they got the reference to Terre'blanche. CHAIRPERSON I think he said in his evidence, Mr Malan, that White people brought us these blankets and they must have used their own interpretation or imagination that they were AWB. MR MALAN Now that's really my follow up question, can you tell me who were these White people that brought it to you, did they do it clandestinely, secretly or was it during the day and openly? MR NOSENGA They used come in broad daylight. MR MALAN And they were also bringing groceries? MR NOSENGA Yes they brought groceries but it was handed out to us to the Induna. MR MALAN The question was put to you on several occasions about cash remuneration and being paid for the jobs. Can you just explain why in the first application this fact was mentioned three times in response to different questions. Why would whoever filled out this form have referred to cash payment on three occasions that you did not tell them anything about that, that it didn't come from you. Where would it have come from, do you have an explanation? MR NOSENGA I do not know because sometimes when people took statements from me they would make mistakes and I would correct such but I did not tell them I was IFP. MR MALAN And lastly do you know that if you did a job for payment, receiving personal gain that you won't qualify for amnesty, do you know that? MR NOSENGA Please repeat that question? MR MALAN Do you know that if a person did any job for personal gain he gets paid for instance for killing a person that he wouldn't be qualifying for amnesty, entitled to amnesty, did you know that? MR NOSENGA Yes I do know. MR MALAN Thank you. ADV SANDI Sorry Chairperson, I just have to come back on something? Did you consider yourself to be doing a job for the IFP? MR NOSENGA Please repeat your question? ADV SANDI Did you regard yourself as someone who was doing a job employed in other words by the IFP because that is what your application says on page 85, 10(b) "Because I was doing a job which was under IFP instructions" MR NOSENGA Yes as I mentioned earlier there was ongoing of conflicts in the Vaal Triangle and I could no longer reside in the township. What I did was not out of personal monies or intention, I received orders from Mtwana Zulu. ADV SANDI How did you get that money to your family, did you have any contact with your family whilst you stayed at Kwamadala Hostel? MR NOSENGA It was difficult to communicate with them, sometimes we would make appointments to meet. For instance in Vereeniging, that we made sure that they are not seen with me. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nosenga, you said in your description that you did some shooting in Zone 12 just near Zone 13, you did some shooting at a bus near Small Farm and you did some shooting at people standing in the vicinity of Joe's Tavern. I take it your shooting was directed at ANC supporters? Now how do you know they were ANC supporters that you were shooting at? MR NOSENGA At that bar ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Just push the button. MR NOSENGA That tavern was frequented by comrades. I would not know about that but we were told that we should shoot at anyone we encounter at Sebokeng. CHAIRPERSON And did you ever receive training in the use of AK-47? MR NOSENGA No. CHAIRPERSON Did no one ever tell you how to shoot it? MR NOSENGA I learnt how to use a gun at Kwamadala Hostel but it was not formal training. CHAIRPERSON Yes and I wonder Ms Tanzer if you can assist here but I don't know if it's contained in this judgement of sentence, you know who the victims were, how many there were because one of our functions here is to declare an opinion as to whether people are victims and make a reference to the Reparations Committee. Is there any way of getting hold of that sort of information? How many charges of murder were you convicted of, maybe that will help. Is that there? MS TANZER Yes the judgement is at the back, the last part. CHAIRPERSON Just on sentence isn't it? MS TANZER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Okay so you were found guilty on 9 counts of murder and 6 of attempted murder? MR NOSENGA That is correct. MS TANZER I know the Evidence Leader attempted to get hold of them. CHAIRPERSON Yes we've been told that's why I was asking. So it's 9 murders and they all took place on the night of the 15th June 1992 in the events now described by Mr Nosenga. MS TANZER Yes the convictions are just for this incident. CHAIRPERSON So what is the application for then, the 9 murders, the 6 attempted murders and being in unlawful possession of guns and ammunition. MS TANZER Ammunition, exactly right. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just one other question, Mr Nosenga, you said that you left in a Ford, whose Ford was that, was it one of your stolen vehicles or was it privately owned? MR NOSENGA No it belonged to Tswi, it was not a stolen vehicle. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Ms Tanzer, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Panel? RE-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER Just on question I have regarding the mention of the financial rewards sometimes getting money to here and there, can you clarify - or your computing that what your activities that were linked with Victor Keshwa or would you say that you were getting financial reward for any activities that you participated as a member of IFP? Well let me make it more simple, your activities with Victor Keshwa obviously were of a criminal nature, is that correct? MR NOSENGA Yes. MS TANZER And your activities relating to the Zone 12 and Sebokeng incident where you got instructions from Mtwana Zulu, was that related to the Kwamadala Hostel, was that relating to IFP instructions or was that related to Victor Keshwa? MR NOSENGA It related to the IFP not Victor Keshwa. MS TANZER So the intention that night was to go and kill comrades, ANC comrades, is that correct? MR NOSENGA Please repeat the question? MS TANZER The intention that night, the goal of that night of the 15th was to go and kill ANC comrades, not to steal food, not to steal cars but to go and shoot people of the ANC comrades, is that correct, ANC members? MR MALAN Did he not say the order was to shoot randomly in Sebokeng, wasn't that the evidence. Everybody encountered in Sebokeng, now that's how I understood his evidence. MS TANZER Well, that's the question being put to him. CHAIRPERSON When you were given this order, you were given this gun and you were given an order to shoot. Were you told who you were going to shoot? MR NOSENGA It was said that we should shoot at people in Sebokeng because they were supporters of the ANC. There were no IFP members who resided in that area. IFP members were chased out of the township for instance some person was shot and killed in Small Farm. MS TANZER So like the Boipatong location, Sebokeng was known to be an ANC foothold, is that correct? MR NOSENGA That is correct. IFP members were not allowed in the township. MS TANZER Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Mr Draht, any questions arising? MR DRAHT No questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr van der Heyde? MR VAN DER HEYDE Mr Chairperson, if you can indulge me, there's something that I forgot to ask? CHAIRPERSON Yes certainly. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER HEYDE Mr Nosenga, right in the beginning when you started testifying, you said that you were arrested on your way to Parys, you were on your way to go and steal a motor vehicle and subsequently police officer called Peens got hold of you and you were tortured by him and then thereafter you were charged ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He also mentioned the name Havenga. MR VAN DER HEYDE Yes, Havenga. Can you just explain a bit on that, how did it come that you acknowledged to being part of a crime after Peens tortured you? MR NOSENGA When I was arrested in Parys the incident in Sebokeng had already occurred. I was arrested and locked up in Parys. They then telephoned Peens at Florida Gardens and they came to collect me from there. Peens and Ntjaka sent me to Houtkop to Mr Havenga. The vehicle case was handled by Mr ...(indistinct). CHAIRPERSON What Mr van der Heyde is asking, Mr Nosenga, is if you told us about the arrest and your arrest was in respect of a crime that had nothing to do with the events of the 15th June, the shooting you told us about, how did it come about that you were charged with the shootings, did you confess to it, or how did the police get evidence that it was you because you were arrested for car theft and you ended up being charged for several murders and attempted murders? MR NOSENGA MR VAN DER HEYDE But just explain another thing to me, you said that Peens gave money to Keshwa, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON I don't know if he said Peens but he said Keshwa got money from the police but I think he mentioned Peens. MR VAN DER HEYDE That's what I wrote down. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VAN DER HEYDE Was it that? Did Peens give money to Keshwa? MR NOSENGA Yes he did. MR VAN DER HEYDE So according to you did Peens know what Keshwa was doing with his criminal activities? MR NOSENGA I cannot say for certain but because of their close association I would assume that they knew about it. For instance he was not stopped at road blocks and he was not arrested. CHAIRPERSON We don't know, he may have been an informer as well, there could have been a number of reasons. MR VAN DER HEYDE Mr Nosenga, I'm just going to put my instructions from Prince Zulu to you and that is that he never gave any instructions to you to go and shoot in the Sebokeng area and also that he never gave any reference to you or ammunition to you. You may answer if you want to. MR NOSENGA I do not know about that, what I do know is that he did issue us with an instruction to go kill people at Sebokeng. Mtwana Zulu was the person in charge at the hostel and he is the one who issued me with the orders. MR VAN DER HEYDE Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER HEYDE CHAIRPERSON Do you have any questions arising out of what Mr van der Heyde has now put, Ms Tanzer? RE-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER Yes, just one or two. Do you know how Victor Keshwa saw his end, how was he killed? MR NOSENGA I was informed of his death and I was also intimated that if I spoke about Boipatong I'd be killed. The police said he died as a result of Aids. MS TANZER Is it correct he died in police custody? MR NOSENGA That is correct, he was in police custody. MS TANZER And in fact he was in custody of Peens, is that not correct? MR NOSENGA Yes he was by Peens together with Rooikop. MS TANZER Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER ADV SANDI Could you help me here Mr van der Heyde, was the applicant known to Mr Zulu? Does he say he knows him as a fellow member in the IFP, fellow member or supporter? MR VAN DER HEYDE They said he - he told me that he knew about him. ADV SANDI Does he know him as a fellow member, fellow supporter in the IFP? MR VAN DER HEYDE Not that I can remember of but I think that they did stay in close proximity to each other. CHAIRPERSON I mean Mr Zulu at that time was associated with the Kwamadala Hostel? MR VAN DER HEYDE That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes so they were in the same hostel? MR VAN DER HEYDE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Any further evidence? MS TANZER No, that's it Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nosenga, that concludes your testimony. You may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Are you calling any evidence Mr Draht? MR DRAHT No Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr van der Heyde? MR VAN DER HEYDE No Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That then concludes the evidence in this matter. Are you in a position to make submissions Ms Tanzer? MS TANZER Yes I am. CHAIRPERSON Please proceed. MS TANZER IN ARGUMENT Mr Chairperson, Andrias Makansima Nosenga, is not a pretty picture. He was involved in criminal activities as you've heard with Victor Keshwa and the gang during the period of 1991 in the Vaal Triangle. He was a youngster of 16 years old, he had to flee his home town of Everton and comes and arrives at the hostel. They allow him into the hostel and he joins if he becomes an IFP member. The acts for which he is convicted, Chairperson, are activities that took place on the 15th June, two days before the Boipatong attack when there was, as you know, a huge amount of conflict and turmoil within the whole Vaal Triangle. One has to separate the criminal activities of this gang, of Victor Keshwa's gang and you have to separate the activities for which he took part of as an IFP member. Now Mr Nosenga is applying for amnesty in respect of convictions which he states as you've heard and he was trying to be as open and clear as he can be about the events regarding the attack on Sebokeng and Zone 13 and Small Farm and he was quite clear and he is unambiguous in his statement that he received the orders from Prince Vanana Zulu that he was given ammunition and that this was his duties as an IFP member to go and shoot comrades. As you know that wasn't irregular or it wasn't an irregular occurrence that was taking place during those days. Therefore when you see in his application form there's reference to rewards and monies, one cannot help but wonder firstly if it was erroneously written in by the attorney or whoever was taking down information, or whether in fact the question was misunderstood by Nosenga himself who in relating activities of stealing cars and in relating activities regarding the instructions from, as he says Prince Vanana Zulu. He later on, two days later, participated in the Boipatong attack and once again it's quite clear it was also receiving instructions from higher leadership. CHAIRPERSON The one form as pointed out by Mr Malan talks about receiving money on three occasions, the other form not at all? There are two forms, the one talks about AWB giving blankets and stuff. MS TANZER Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON It doesn't talk about but the other one talks ...(intervention) MS TANZER Well actually, the whole way these forms actually arrived at the TRC are quite interesting I might add, the one form went missing and then another one had been filled in actually. There was a whole mix up and then suddenly the two applications appeared. This was all before the Boipatong hearing, this matter was dealt with in over seven days but the whole issue is that I think if to the credit of Mr Nosenga that if he was referring to any kind of reward, what he was really referring to was the reward that he mentioned that he was getting in terms of the thefts of the break ins and the criminal activities that took place with Victor Keshwa's gang. He was a youngster at the time, he was a kid of about sixteen years old when he was at the hostel, he had no means of employment and here Victor Keshwa was offering him an opportunity ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He would have been nineteen, he was born in 1973 and this is '92. MS TANZER Well that's correct, he was about nineteen, you're right. CHAIRPERSON He was younger when he left Everton. MS TANZER Yes he was about fourteen when he left Everton. Well basically Mr Nosenga's application, he's attempted to make full disclosure, he has shown that there was a political objective, that he would not have gone out that night to Sebokeng and Zone 13 or Small Farm and shot at those people if he hadn't received instructions to do so, that the sole reason for the mission was handed up by orders from Mtwana Zulu, there was no personal malice, no personal revenge in this incident for which is convicted and sitting in jail right now and that the motive was purely political and there was no financial reward relating thereto, he wasn't paid money or wasn't given groceries, he was only given a certain kind of honour or privilege or respect, he was pleased by Mtwana Zulu, Mtwana Zulu was gratified for their actions. They were sent as you heard to Sebokeng because they were from Sebokeng, they knew the area so they would be able to go round the area and would know where to go. I submit that his application for amnesty should be considered and should be granted because he has told the truth, he has come here, he has been as open as possible, he has not tried to hide any facts from this Commission, he has told the Commission of all the activities of which he had participated in, he has made the full disclosure, it has a political motive and once again there was no financial reward especially in this incident for which he is sitting in jail. If there was financial reward for stealing cars it was not for this incident itself so therefore I humbly request of this Commission to consider his application and to grant him amnesty. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Tanzer ...(intervention) MR MALAN Sorry Chair if I may I just ask? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MALAN You ask us to almost disregard all references to financial benefits on the basis of the applicant understanding that to be referring to his criminal activities but if you look at the first form 1 on page 84 dated I think the 13th September 1996, the second one being the 25th September 1996, just a little later, there's no reference to any criminal activities, it starts under 9(a) referring to the mission and the order by Mtwana Zulu then 10(a) "We were promised monies in any mission" And he talks about fighting the communists, he talks about a job in 10(b) as Mr Sandi has pointed out. Under (c) he says yes we also received sometimes money or groceries and in (d) he refers to different payments depending on the nature and the kind of mission? Does that in any event relate to benefits accruing to him from his criminal activities? Could one read it in that way or if we accept his explanation shouldn't it simply be that he never said this? MS TANZER Well if would be preferable if you don't accept what was stated for the simple reason the man cannot read, he doesn't even have a Grade 1 education so...(intervention) MR MALAN My question really relates to your argument, you're arguing that here he referred to criminal activities whereas his evidence was simply that didn't emanate from it in any way whatsoever, so what is your argument, that's my question? MS TANZER Yes you are hundred percent correct, only insofar as he said that when they did steal cars they would make some money, there was financial reward there, he did give evidence to that effect that if they would steal a car, the only money derived or benefited from was from his ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think that what Mr Malan is getting at is that in his evidence he said that he didn't tell the person who was taking down and he doesn't mention the name of the person taking down the form that completed the particulars in this form, anything about receiving cash? MS TANZER So he's disclaiming the whole concept of reward for his activities. CHAIRPERSON But we don't know who actually did this. It wasn't you, was it? MS TANZER No, you won't know who did that because it seems - I don't think it was attorneys, I think it was people from COSATU House who went ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes because I see Vereeniging, they battled to spell it. MS TANZER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Well not that attorneys don't make spelling mistakes. MS TANZER No I think members of COSATU House would visit the prisons and get their statements, that's actually how the statements came to being, that's why they talk of comrades and communists and things like that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any submissions? MR VAN DER HEYDE Mr Chairperson, I'm going to leave it in the capable hands of the Committee. NO ARGUMENT BY MR VAN DER HEYDE CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you, we will reserve our decision and hope to get our decision as soon as possible, it will be in written form and you will be advised. Ms Tanzer, I'd like to thank you for your assistance. Mr Draht and Van der Heyde and Mr Steenkamp as well. Mr Steenkamp, this now concludes our roll? ADV STEENKAMP Unfortunately Mr Chairperson, that will be the roll for the day and for the whole session. CHAIRPERSON I would like to also thank the translators very much and apologise for staying late today but that will give you a little bit less to do tomorrow. Thank you very much, the Department of Correctional Services, thank you very much indeed for not only bringing the applicant on time but also indulging us by staying late, we appreciate that very much indeed, thank you. I'd like to thank also sound technicians, sound people, the media television operator also and again apologise to everybody for staying late and I'd like to thank everybody particularly Joe and Molly who made this hearing possible and so efficient as it has turned out to be. Thank you very much indeed and also to the caterers and for spoiling us the way they did. Thank you very much indeed, we will now adjourn. Thank you. HEARING ADJOURNS