amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-03-14 PRETORIA 14 EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK - RECALL https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54075&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200314pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Yes, can we proceed? Who is next on the list? Who is going to give evidence next? MR JANSEN Mr Chair, Jansen on behalf of Ras. Ras is the next applicant that will be testifying. With your permission however, Mr Chair, I need on behalf of Ras to put certain issues to Mr de Kock which relate to the herd boy. These were issues that were really canvassed after I had cross-examined yesterday. If I can have your permission. I won't be long. CHAIRPERSON Are you suggesting that there were issues that arose after you cross-examined, that you couldn't foresee? MR JANSEN Well, the controversy relating to the herd boy was certainly accentuated to a far greater extent after I cross-examined. Maybe it was an omission from my part, Mr Chairman, maybe I should have dealt with it. CHAIRPERSON Well I'm going to allow you to put certain questions to Mr de Kock, but strictly on the basis that it's narrowed down to that aspect. MR JANSEN Yes, thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Proceed. EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK (s.u.o.) FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN Mr de Kock, Mr Ras says that the person who was shot at the scene, the person who was 15 years old, this herd boy that was referred to, was ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Before we carry on with that, we're referring to this person, or two people at least, as "beeswagters", is it common cause that they were "beeswagters"? MR JANSEN Well they have ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON There's a suggestion at best at this stage that they were. MR JANSEN Okay, maybe I should then start one step before that. Mr de Kock, Mr Ras says that he knew of the presence of a young person who by just looking at him seems to have been a herd boy and he reported this in his report at that stage, can you remember something like that? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, yes, there would have been a situation like that. As I mentioned before, there was a young man who acted as a herd boy and did surveillance of the border. That is my memory of it today. I cannot really elaborate on that because I cannot remember. MR JANSEN Mr Ras also adds that this person was indeed this young boy that was shot that evening of the operation. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I'll have to accept his word for it, I cannot really take it further. MR JANSEN Furthermore, Mr Ras says that at a certain stage while they were busy with the surveillance he arrested this boy when he came or walked across to the South African side and that he interrogated this child for a period of time, and Mr Ras says that the contents of this interrogation would have been part of his report. Can you remember something like that? MR DE KOCK Yes, it would have been part of his report. It was afterwards that I can remember that a person was caught on the South African side, but I cannot testify about it because it became ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Do you agree that it was part of the pre-report? MR DE KOCK Yes, I agree with that. Or let me put it this way, it would have been part of the report but we cannot know how complete it was. CHAIRPERSON But can you remember that it was part of a report? MR DE KOCK No, I cannot remember. CHAIRPERSON I think this is how I understand the question. Can you comment on it, if there was a report and the contents of it mentioned the crossing of the border of this person and that he was arrested and as a result of the interrogation that ensued, certain information was gathered? MR DE KOCK No, I cannot remember that report, but I do accept that that information was incorporated. CHAIRPERSON Do you yourself have knowledge of the fact that there was a transgression of the border at that stage? MR DE KOCK No, only afterwards did I find that out. CHAIRPERSON: Did it come under your attention? MR DE KOCK Yes, it was yesterday that I heard about it. CHAIRPERSON Not then? MR DE KOCK No. That is why I cannot testify about it today. MR JANSEN Thank you, Chair, that's all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr de Kock, with that new evidence - I do not want to open a very long discussion on this, but it is very important now because the evidence changes a bit, not yours but the image. Yesterday I was under the impression that these two people were killed outside the house, now it seems as if one of them had time after you started the attack, to go over the border and there was time to catch him and arrest him and to interrogate him. How long did the attack last at that stage, from the time that you arrived there and planted the bomb, acted, took photos and retreated? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR JANSEN Sorry Mr Chairman, could I - I apologise for interrupting, but I think you understand the context completely wrong. The incident that I was referring to, the arrest of this boy, happened long before the actual incident. That was part of the observation, it was during the process of observation. CHAIRPERSON Oh okay, so it's not the same person? MR JANSEN No, it is the same person, but he was arrested a while before. During the period of observation he was arrested, interrogated and then released again. CHAIRPERSON And then found again on the night of the incident? MR JANSEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON Okay, I misunderstood you then, I'm sorry. Thank you, Mr de Kock. JUDGE KHAMPEPE With your permission, Chair. Mr de Kock, to your recollection would this be the person that you have referred to in your written application, as well as having touched upon yesterday during your viva voce evidence? MNR DE KOCK "Voorsitter, ek aanvaar dis dieselfde persoon, want in die tyd wat ek daar by die dam was, wat ons vir hierdie operasie nou voorberei het, was die persoon nie gevang gewees nie, of was die persoon nie aan ons kant gevang gewees nie." CHAIRPERSON Just to get a complete answer on that, when you sat there and did surveillance did you see or observe a person that looked like a herd boy? MR DE KOCK No, I was never at the surveillance point myself, certain members did that. CHAIRPERSON At what stage did you realise that there could be a person who was a herd boy? MR DE KOCK That came out of the information reports that were given to me by Lt Ras. CHAIRPERSON Was that after the incident? MR DE KOCK Well before we launched the attack. CHAIRPERSON Although you did not see it you did know that there's possibly a person who was a herd boy. MR DE KOCK Yes. CHAIRPERSON Can you remember if it was mentioned to you "Look, that guy that we now see there, the guy who is keeping watch, is a guy who was arrested a while ago and we know him"? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I do not have any independent memory of it. I really do not have an independent recollection of it. CHAIRPERSON But wouldn't it have been an important fact, "We do know this person, why did we release him if he's possibly an informant? Must we kill him?" MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I would like to help you, I would like to help Mr Ras' attorney, but I cannot help you in this. CHAIRPERSON But if it was mentioned to you at that stage, wouldn't you expect that you would have asked him about it? "What is the status of this person? This herd boy that you arrested and then released, what is his status in the operation?" MR DE KOCK Chairperson, in terms of the interrogation that took place and the attempts that followed on that concerning this person, I believe it would have been incorporated in the written report. In other words it would have been there. I cannot unfortunately give you the hard facts concerning this, although I would like to. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you are excused. MR DE KOCK Do you have further questions? JUDGE KHAMPEPE No. WITNESS EXCUSED MACHINE SWITCHED OFF