amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-03-20 PRETORIA 1 ANDREW CHAUKE AM5487/97 KILLING OF MR MASINGA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54087&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200320pt.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON We are now going to proceed with the matter of Andrew Chauke, Reginald Simelane, Alfred Simelane and Robbie Mabuza. As far as I can see, the legal advisers all remain the same. MS COLERIDGE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The same as we announced for the previous matter. MS COLERIDGE Chairperson, just in relation to implicated people, as to the notifications, we have notified Joseph Motsepe who is here today, Chairperson, and Clement Modau, who is also present today, Chairperson. And in relation to the victims, it is the deceased, Benjamin Masinga. His brother Charles Masinga is representing the family, Chairperson. Thank you. JUDGE DE JAGER The two implicated persons, has it been confirmed that they didn't apply for amnesty? MS COLERIDGE That is correct, Chairperson, and Mr Brian Koopedi will also just give us just a little statement in relation to the two implicated persons, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Right, are you ready, Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI I am ready, thanks Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR KOOPEDI No, Chairperson, the little papers I've given to you is the - it's going to be the testimony by the applicants and for you to follow better as they give evidence we should make those copies available, Chairperson. Chairperson, perhaps for the record, my name is Brian Koopedi, I appear for the - it's a difficult one to say, for the applicants in this matter, four applicants and two implicated persons, Chairperson. Perhaps it is important for me at this stage, Chairperson, to state that the four applicants together with the two implicated persons, were involved in the incident for which amnesty shall be sought. Chairperson, one of the implicated persons, Mr Clement Modau, has not applied for amnesty. His belief was that because he was granted indemnity for him to come into the country and he had disclosed this event, he laboured under the impression that he has the necessary pardon and has not applied. The second implicated person, Mr Joseph Motsepe informs me that at the time when application forms were being completed he was stationed in Kimberley, he went to see an attorney in Kimberley, completed amnesty application forms and left those forms with this attorney. Attempts to trace this attorney has been fruitless, all I could get was that this attorney is in the Justice Department. We are not saying they should be joined as applicants, but what we are saying Chairperson, in terms of full disclosure we are merely giving an explanation as to why they did not apply when perhaps they should have applied, Chairperson. Thank you. We are ready to proceed. CHAIRPERSON Right, carry on. MR KOOPEDI The first applicant in this matter, Chairperson, will be Mr Andrew Chauke. May he be sworn in, Chairperson. ADV SIGODI What language is he going to speak? MR KOOPEDI He can be sworn in in English. ANDREW CHAUKE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson, we will proceed. Mr Chauke, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter which has led to the killing of a person, Mr Masinga? MR CHAUKE Yes, it's true. MR KOOPEDI I will refer you to the bundle of documents before this Honourable Committee. Is the form appearing on page 3 your application form? MR CHAUKE Yes. MR KOOPEDI And on page 8 there is a signature, is that your signature? MR CHAUKE That's true, that's my signature. MR KOOPEDI No you have prepared a statement to assist you in giving testimony to this Honourable Committee, is that correct? MR CHAUKE That's correct. MR KOOPEDI Would you please proceed with the statement which shall be your evidence-in-chief. MR CHAUKE "Chairperson and Committee Members, including Mr Masinga's family ..." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, can I disturb you for a moment? Shall we mark this Exhibit A. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. MR CHAUKE "I, Andrew Chauke, I joined the Congress of South African Students in 1984. I was a student at Saulsridge High School. I became a member of the Student Representative Council. I served in the SRC together with my co-applicants, being Reginald Jabu Simelane, Alfred Simelane, Robbie Bongani Mabuza, Joseph Motsepe and Clement Modau. Since COSAS was an affiliate of the United Democratic Front, we were introduced into the politics of the African National Congress. From the many meetings and conferences that we attended we met with MK cadres who taught and trained us. We were however not trained in the use of weapons then. We were ordered to form an underground unit of MK, which was to operate in the Atteridgeville and Pretoria areas. Our main task was to popularise and execute the campaigns of the United Democratic Front, the African National Congress, to enhance the downfall of the apartheid regime. We would from time to time distribute anti-government pamphlets and posters. We would also popularise school boycotts and protests. I was the Commander of this underground cell. However, all the actions taken by this unit were discussed and agreed upon by all present. The police, soldiers, councillors and council police were all regarded as the enemy of - their main duty in the township was to suppress all political activities and to also arrest and disillusion political activists. Coming to the issue of the late Mr Benjamin Masinga, our unit knew Benjamin Masinga as a policeman who was stationed in town and who was nicknamed Rambo. As he harassed people in the township, Rambo was notorious among us student activists as he would boast about his position as a policeman. There had been an attack on him by other comrades, not us, who successfully took his firearm, but he somehow escaped from these comrades. On the 19th of April 1986, our underground unit was in a meeting at my home at 35 Serote Street. We were busy building and preparing petrol bombs as we were planning an attack on the house of another policeman. At about 20h00 whilst we were planning this attack, a lady a came into my home and called me outside. She told me that Rambo was at the house opposite my home. Rambo apparently had a girlfriend at that house. I realised that Rambo was a more significant target. I went into the house, told my comrades about the presence of this target in the area. We immediately and unanimously agreed to attack and kill him. We thought it would send a louder message if we could take him out of the house and kill him at a public place, so that his death may be known. As we were busy building petrol bombs, we took the petrol we had, sticks and an axe and proceeded to the house. I asked Clement to go and quickly find other activists as we wanted all the activists to see that the notorious Rambo has finally met with the strong arm of revolution. I also ordered Joseph not to enter the house with us but to keep guard outside, to warn us if there will be any danger coming. I myself, axe in hand, was the first one to go inside the house. I saw Rambo seated in the dining-room. I said "there he is" and I went to him and attacked him with an axe. My comrade had sticks and stones. They also participated in the assault. We then dragged Rambo out and took him to Kabo Primary School, which was nearby. On the way to Kabo Primary School I ordered Joseph to hand over the petrol he was holding and that he must stay behind and keep a lookout for the enemy forces if they would come, and also advised Clement and the others that we had taken Rambo to Kabo. Upon arrival at Kabo we continued to assault Rambo, who looked unconscious from the assault at the house. Alfred then poured petrol over him and Bongani set him alight. We then left the scene. When we left, Clement had not returned and I did not know where Joseph was. I was arrested after three days and the case was subsequently withdrawn. I left the country in 1988 to join the African National Congress formally and underwent military training in Angola." MR KOOPEDI Now Mr Chauke, after having said what you've said, did you receive any financial benefit or personal benefit out of this attack and killing of Mr Masinga? MR CHAUKE Well truly speaking to answer you there, I didn't receive anything from whosoever or whatsoever. That is why in this particular day I myself, even my fellow comrades were so proud and happy that at least if we can meet the family of Mr Masinga and they should at least come and hear our statements and our commitment during that period of the struggle. So ...(intervention) MR KOOPEDI Well what I was about to ask you was, you have perhaps somehow alluded to this, but for purposes of clarity I believe one should ask you if you think there was a political motive and a political objective covering this act. MR CHAUKE Yes, there was. MR KOOPEDI And what would be those political reasons? MR CHAUKE Well as I've already stated in my statement that I've already read to the house, (1) during that particular period I was an activist, a member of the known Congress of South African Students, as well as a supporter of the United Democratic Front. By then the African National Congress was banned. And as I've already stated we had an underground cell which was commanded by me. We had comrades who timeously, more especially MK cadres, who visited our underground formation in order that no, they should really direct and politicise us in terms of how our kind of tactics can be used in order to overthrow the then apartheid regime. That is why I believe that this action is politically motivated. MR KOOPEDI Now inasfar as you can remember - one knows this happened some years ago, but inasfar as you can remember, do you think that you have fully disclosed all the relevant facts to this Honourable Committee? MR CHAUKE Yes, I believe I've explained everything what happened. ...(indistinct) maybe the other way around, I wasn't going to feel or to see it necessary to apply to the TRC in terms of what happened, so I believe I've told the Truth and Reconciliation Commission the truth. MR KOOPEDI Now perhaps just to make sure that you get an opportunity for this, is there anything you would want to say to the Masinga family, relatives and friends? MR CHAUKE Yes. Actually what I would like to say to the family of the late Mr Benjamin Masinga, I know it's very painful in order to find that you lost the beloved one in the house or maybe the guy was the breadwinner or whatsoever, but what I would like to emphasise to the family of Mr Masinga, I'm very, very sorry in what happened. So that is why I applied for amnesty and then I would be happy if the Committee, I mean the family of Mr Masinga could just go back and revise the situation by then. You know the country was at war, truly speaking, and then you wouldn't know that no, by then during the apartheid time, one would join the force to suppress a political organisation or political activities whatsoever. So I feel, even myself, that they are hurt, but it was this trouble. So that is why I'm asking for their apology. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, that will be the evidence-in-chief for this applicant, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA Thank you, Mr Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members. There's only a few questions that we'd like to ask the concerned applicant in this matter. Mr Chauke, you've alluded to that at some stage you were arrested, is that so? MR CHAUKE That's so. MR NYAWUZA And during your arrest did you at any stage appear before a Court of law? MR CHAUKE That's true, I did appear. MR NYAWUZA And having appeared before a Court of law, did you at any stage plead to the said offence? MR CHAUKE May you please repeat your question. MR NYAWUZA Did you plead to the said offence, that "I plead, I Mr X, plead guilty or not guilty to these and my defence, my plea explanation is X, Y, Z, did you do that at any stage? MR CHAUKE Yes, I did plead. MR NYAWUZA I'd like to refer the Honourable Committee Members to page 96 of the bundle. - page 95, excuse me, from page 95 onwards. Mr Chauke, how did you know the girl that called you? MR CHAUKE Pardon? MR NYAWUZA How did you know the girl that called you? You stated that some girl - in your evidence-in-chief you stated that some girl called you whilst you were having a meeting at your place, how did you know her? MR CHAUKE Actually the lady stayed there almost opposite my house, that's how I knew her. MR NYAWUZA What's her name? MR CHAUKE Her name is Linkie. MR NYAWUZA It's Linkie? MR CHAUKE Yes. MR NYAWUZA When you said she was staying opposite your house, did you grow up together? MR CHAUKE No, no. MR NYAWUZA For how long had you known her, on this particular day? MR CHAUKE I knew her for almost a period of three months because even myself, there at 35 Serote, I was not residing there. MR NYAWUZA So are you in essence saying that you'd been at 35 Serote, Atteridgeville, for about three months? MR CHAUKE That's right. MR NYAWUZA Did you know the deceased in this matter? MR CHAUKE No, I didn't. MR NYAWUZA What was the relationship between the deceased and - excuse me. My apologies, Committee Members. What was the relationship between Linkie and the deceased? MR CHAUKE What I can say is the relationship between Linkie and the deceased was that the deceased married Linkie's sister. MR NYAWUZA So would you agree with me when I say that the deceased had on occasion come to this particular house? MR CHAUKE No. MR NYAWUZA Are you saying you only saw him on that particular day? Was it for the first time that you saw him at this residence? MR CHAUKE The deceased? MR NYAWUZA Yes. MR CHAUKE No, it was on that particular day only. As I've stated in my statement, the deceased was famous in the township insofar as the political activists. MR NYAWUZA Ja, that is granted. I'm now referring to him being at this particular house. Would you agree with me when I say he used to come on occasion to this particular house? MR CHAUKE Ja, that I cannot answer. MR NYAWUZA Prior to the date in question, had you seen him in this house? MR CHAUKE Pardon? MR SIBANYONI Prior, before the date in question, had you seen the deceased in this house at this address? MR CHAUKE No. MR NYAWUZA So you were seeing him for the first time on this particular day, is that so? MR CHAUKE That's right. MR NYAWUZA And you knew that he was married to Linkie's sister, is that so? MR CHAUKE That's what I said. MR NYAWUZA So in - you stated again that on this particular day you were having a meeting where you were preparing petrol bombs and you were advised by Linkie that this chap is in the house. MR CHAUKE Yes. MR NYAWUZA Would you elaborate on Linkie's participation in the whole thing. MR CHAUKE Yes, what I can say there is that as Linkie knew me there as a political activist and then it was sort of in support of political changes in overthrowing the apartheid regime. He knew that no, in the township or wherever, all over South Africa, that no cops were regarded as targets, that is why she came to me and told me that no, there is a target in the house. MR NYAWUZA So are you in essence saying Linkie had her brother-in-law killed because he was a police officer? MR CHAUKE No, that I cannot answer. MR NYAWUZA So if we take the matter further regarding Linkie, she called you, you went out, you went into this house. There's mention of Linkie having switched off the lights, can you put is in the light of all that? MR CHAUKE Well according to that, as I've already told the Committee here, that that of Linkie switching off the light there, what I've read was the statement which I made and is the true statement of whatever I know. MR NYAWUZA So you don't know anything about Linkie having switched off the light? MR CHAUKE No, I know nothing about that. MR NYAWUZA Linkie just called you, and what did she do thereafter, did she call you and went back into the house or she called you, she said "guys there's a target at our home" and then she sat with you? What happened, what happened of her? MR CHAUKE What happened of her actually, Mr - I don't know how ...(intervention) MR NYAWUZA Mr Nyawuza, Sir. MR CHAUKE Mr Nyawuza Sir, she called my outside as I've already stated in front of the Committee, then she told me that there is a target in the house there. Then what happened, I said to her "no problem, we'll sort that out". I went back inside the house. As to where did she go by then, I don't know. And I entered into the house, I explained to my comrades that no, there is a situation, it's this and this and that. MR NYAWUZA And when you went into the house to attack the deceased, was she there? MR CHAUKE No, she wasn't there. MR NYAWUZA Who had the axe? MR CHAUKE I had the axe. MR NYAWUZA And did you say that to the Court? Did you say you had the axe to the Court? MR CHAUKE To the Court of Law? MR NYAWUZA Yes, Sir. MR CHAUKE No, I didn't say that, I had reasons for that. MR NYAWUZA Who did you say had the axe? MR CHAUKE I would say by then as one can explain the situation of what happened in Court, even you yourself Mr Nyawuza, you will recall by the time that this incident happened and more especially of a person of Mr Benjamin Masinga's calibre, the country was at war and in Court they would never allow a person to just go and agree and only that no, I did this, this and this. I wanted to protect myself against - maybe I could be found guilty and be hanged by that time. So that is why I didn't actually disclose the whole truth to the Court by then, because by then the Courts would never listen to whatsoever statement of any political activist being arrested and being tried. MR NYAWUZA Mr Chauke, how many of you had been arrested? Of the six of you that I see here, how many of you had been arrested at the time? MR CHAUKE I was the first one to be arrested. As I've already stated, in three days I was arrested and then the rest of the comrades then followed. MR NYAWUZA All of them were arrested? MR CHAUKE That's right, Mr Nyawuza. MR NYAWUZA So at the time of your plea all six of you were arrested and all six of you were comrades, is that so? MR CHAUKE That's right. MR NYAWUZA And you are stating that you didn't tell the Court that "I, Andrew Chauke, had the axe on this particular day, but Clement my comrade had it", because you didn't want to be hanged, so you wanted Clement to be hanged. MR CHAUKE So well to answer your question there, I cannot say that I wanted Clement to be hanged, it was the other way round, I needed a scapegoat. MR NYAWUZA So in needing your scapegoat you had to put somebody on the danger line, being Clement Modau, if I'm not mistaken. Is that Clement Modau that Modau that you are referring to? MR CHAUKE That's right, Mr Nyawuza. You know I wonder if you were once arrested during the course of the struggle whatsoever. MR NYAWUZA No, I wasn't. MR CHAUKE You wasn't. MR NYAWUZA No, Sir. MR CHAUKE So let me tell you the situation actually what was happening there. You see, the cops, the police will come and arrest you and after arresting you they would never treat you the same like what is happening presently, you would be tortured, beaten, things like that, so that no, you must make a confession in order that that confession they should just use it against you and your fellow comrades. MR NYAWUZA But Mr Chauke, I believe that we have gone past that stage of an investigating officer being taken to Court, pianos being taken and you being charged. You were now in a Court of law where you had a Magistrate presiding over the matter, where you had a Prosecutor who was leading evidence for the State, you had the right to say whatever happened. This is during the plea stage, we had gone past the investigation. The torturing came with the investigation and when the IO felt that this matter is now ready for trial, he had gone past the torturing stage. My question is extremely simple and straightforward. All six of you were comrades. MR CHAUKE That's right. MR NYAWUZA If all six of you were convicted of murder, all six of you were going to be hanged because as you've stated, Mr Masinga was of a calibre that necessitated the Presiding Officers at that particular time, to impose a death sentence. So if you say you told the Magistrate, the Presiding Officer on that particular day, that you were not having the axe, Clement was, and your version of saying no, Clement was having the thing is that you avoided being hanged. So my question is, so you wanted Clement to be hanged, is that so? MR CHAUKE Maybe Mr Nyawuza, you are repeating the very same thing that you have already asked and I believe I did answer your question. MR NYAWUZA You haven't responded to my question. What was your response? MR CHAUKE I did respond to your question, Mr Nyawuza. MR NYAWUZA What was your response? MR CHAUKE I told you that no, seeing that knowing the Security Forces by that time, they use force actually you see, if a person is arrested he was going to be tortured and whatsoever. That is why I said now, this statement which I made in the Regional Court, wherever I appeared and during that presence I was escorted by the very same torture of mine and those people threatened that no, if you are not going to implicate the statement to the Magistrate's Court, on our return back from Court you will be dead in the cell. That is why I said ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Chauke, in fact you're telling us that at that stage you told lies to the Court, you didn't tell them the truth. MR CHAUKE That's right, Mr Chairman. JUDGE DE JAGER I think the only concern that Mr Nyawuza has is why did you put the blame on one of your comrades, why didn't you blame somebody else? Now you're blaming him and bringing him into trouble. Could you explain why you chose to put the blame on him? MR CHAUKE I chose to put the blame on him because I was tortured. MR NYAWUZA Thank you, Mr Chairman. You stated before this Committee that you knew the deceased and further that you knew that ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, he said that he heard of the deceased, he didn't know personally but he knew about him. He was a well-known policeman in the vicinity. MR CHAUKE That's true, Mr Chairperson. MR NYAWUZA I'll rephrase my question then. You knew about Rambo, you hadn't seen him personally, is that so? MR CHAUKE Yes. MR NYAWUZA So on this day in question you were seeing him for the first time, is that so? MR CHAUKE That's right. MR NYAWUZA But you knew that Rambo was a brother-in-law to Linkie, is that so as well? MR CHAUKE You see, Mr Nyawuza, actually if you can go back to my statement that I've already written here, this statement explains clearly of what I knew about him. MR NYAWUZA So Mr Chauke you stated before this Committee that there was no personal gain in whatever you were doing, is that so? MR CHAUKE That's right, Mr Nyawuza. MR NYAWUZA So your killing of Rambo was to destabilise, for want of a better word, the working of the police officers and in essence affecting the whole system of apartheid, is that so? MR CHAUKE That's true, Mr Nyawuza. MR NYAWUZA Mr Chauke, you didn't know that there was a problem between the deceased and his wife, would you have known that? MR CHAUKE I didn't know about that. MR NYAWUZA Okay. Because the version of the victims would be there was friction between the wife and the deceased. In actual fact the deceased had at some stage been a resident at the address in which he was found and killed by yourselves and they were in separation during this process and on this fateful day he had come to his in-laws to collect some items that belonged to him, that is how he met his untimely death. Would, Mr Chauke, there have been somebody else at the house besides the deceased on this particular day? MR CHAUKE Well to answer you there, Mr Nyawuza, myself and following comrades, when we entered that house there was nobody inside that house. That is why I've mentioned clearly in my statement, because I was the first guy to enter into that house. Maybe the other way round though, there were people watching you see, that I cannot disclose. But when I entered there, I entered with my six comrades and then we carried out this murder of Mr Masinga. MR NYAWUZA I've got no further questions, Mr Chairman, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Chauke, I just want to take you back to your statement - that's Exhibit A for the record, just the second paragraph, you said that you went - the third line of that paragraph, you said that you went for training, can you just elaborate on that for us? What kind of training did you undergo and who trained you? MR CHAUKE The last paragraph? MS COLERIDGE I'll just read it to you. You said "From the many meetings and conferences that we attended, we met with MK cadres who taught and trained us." My question to you is, what training did you undergo? MR CHAUKE If you can further read the statement here, it does answer your question. We were however not trained in using weapons. The training that we had was political, to be politically conscious, we should understand the constitution properly of the United Democratic Front as well as the mother organisation, the African National Congress, of which it was banned by then. MS COLERIDGE So it wasn't formal training per se, it was more educational in a sense? MR CHAUKE That's right. MS COLERIDGE And then, who delivered the conferences and the meetings? Who spoke to you in relation to this? MR CHAUKE That's ...(indistinct) I say that by then we had MK cadres who then infiltrated the country without being identified and then as one can remember, by then people used to - more especially the MK, used combat names. MS COLERIDGE So you can't give us any names? MR CHAUKE No, I'm not ...(intervention) MS COLERIDGE And combat names, combat names for instance? MR CHAUKE Combat names yes, that I can give, but now as an underground cell, the way it was operating, the following day you find that no, they send a new face that you don't even know that will just come and tell you and give you his combat name, that's all. Deliver his educational speeches, political pamphlets that were supposed to be distributed to the masses and leave the country. MS COLERIDGE How old were you when this incident occurred? MR CHAUKE By 1986 I was 28 years - 18, because I was born on the 7th, 1968. MS COLERIDGE So you were 18 years old? MR CHAUKE That's right. MS COLERIDGE You said just in the third paragraph, that you were ordered to form an underground unit of MK, who ordered you to form this unit? MR CHAUKE As I've already explained that the persons who ordered to us to form this underground MK cell, is those MK cadres. MS COLERIDGE Surely you must be able to give us even a codename or something. MR CHAUKE Yes, that is - I'm not afraid, that I can disclose because they were using combat names. One can say - you see combat names, maybe I can say Jack Magoba, then you won't believe maybe it's a combat name, but now it's a name and surname. MS COLERIDGE Mr Chauke, just answer the question. What was the person's combat name that you knew of, who ordered you to form that. MR CHAUKE That was Raphael Molebatsi. MS COLERIDGE Can you repeat that? MR CHAUKE Raphael Molebatsi. MS COLERIDGE Was that his combat name? MR CHAUKE That's right. MS COLERIDGE And then in the fifth paragraph you say that you were appointed as the Commander basically, who appointed you as the Commander of that unit? Was it the same person or what? MR CHAUKE Actually there as we had those different cadres visiting our underground cell, there was a need whereby we cannot all be responsible in terms of executing different tasks of the organisation, so ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER The question is straightforward, who made you Commander? MR CHAUKE It's Mr Jeffrey Sibiya. MS COLERIDGE And then just on page 2, the second paragraph, you said that you were in a meeting, now we know that the applicants and the implicated persons were at that meeting that you called, that was just before you attacked the deceased, who was all in that meeting besides you? MR CHAUKE All the applicants who are sitting here. MS COLERIDGE Anybody else? MR CHAUKE Nobody else. MS COLERIDGE And then you went further, you stated that you were building and preparing petrol bombs as you were planning to attack another policeman's house, was that plan actually executed? MR CHAUKE No, it wasn't executed. MS COLERIDGE Why wasn't it executed? MR CHAUKE It was disturbed by the arrival of this lady who told us that no, there is a target in the house. Then I realised that Rambo was the more significant target than the one which we planned to go and attack. MS COLERIDGE And what did you do with those petrol bombs? MR CHAUKE With these petrol bombs, since well that we're not trained in arms whatsoever, we used petrol bombs as our main weapons because you that no, if maybe we are going to attack more especially a police vehicle or a soldier's vehicle, you know that the petrol bomb will have much effect, that those people realised that no, there are people who are defending themselves. MS COLERIDGE Then I just want to ask you a question in relation to the state the deceased was in before you poured the petrol over him and burnt him. Was he still alive at that stage? MR CHAUKE Well truly speaking, the deceased was unconscious. MS COLERIDGE He was unconscious. MR CHAUKE Ja, he was unconscious. MS COLERIDGE Okay. And then just one other question in relation to the axe, I see that Reginald mentions - on page 45 of the bundle, Chairperson, he stated that you hit the deceased with the axe. MR CHAUKE Yes. MS COLERIDGE At paragraph 7 of page 45, Reginald states - well it's actually the Investigating Officer that questions Reginald, and he states "Hy deel my verder mee dat hy gesien het hoe Andre die oorledene met 'n tang agter die kop slaan. Daarna het Clement die man met 'n byl ook agter die kop geslaan." What is your comment on that? MR CHAUKE Well my comment to that is this, I've already mentioned personally what happened. I think that may be asked to Mr Reginald Simelane, because I've said what exactly happened and that's what ...(indistinct) MS COLERIDGE And then page 52 there's another statement by Mr Reginald, dated the 29.01.'88. It's on page 52 of the bundle, in the fourth paragraph he also states "Ons het toe ingegaan en Andre het die polisieman met die tang geslaan." And then he goes on further, he says - "Toe het Clement gevolg. Hy het hom met die byl geslaan. Toe hy het geval." What do you say about that? MR CHAUKE But that Mrs Coleridge, I can refer that as - compare that with the very statement that I've argued that this chap maybe was under pressure and force of the Security Forces tortures, that is why he mentioned such things. JUDGE DE JAGER Had you beforehand decided, all of you, that you'll blame Clement, because he's now saying Clement used the axe, you said he used the axe? Did you, before you went to Court, decide that you should put the blame on Clement? MR CHAUKE No. JUDGE DE JAGER How did it come now that he mentioned that it was Clement who used the axe and you said it was Clement who used the axe? MR CHAUKE That is why, Mr Chair, that I've already answered in that question, as to how did he was trying to - maybe he said that Clement used the axe. I can answer it the way as it is similar to my statement due to torture. JUDGE DE JAGER Ja, but how did you decide to blame the same person? Isn't that because Clement didn't apply for amnesty now and you're changing the story to protect him? MR CHAUKE No. CHAIRPERSON I can understand you, if you have committed the act and are being tortured, you are trying to put the blame on somebody else, but Reginald didn't commit the act, he didn't hit him with an axe, so why should he now be putting the blame for hitting him with an axe on the wrong person, why didn't he mention you? MR CHAUKE That I cannot answer because what happened, Mr Chair, we were not living in the very same cell, the other people were taken, be tortured in Pretoria North, the others Atteridgeville, the others behind the railway stations. MS COLERIDGE Can you just tell us, your other comrades at the scene of the incident, the house, can you just tell us each applicant, what his role was in the attack? MR CHAUKE Yes, that I can tell. As I've already stated because it is also written in my what-you-call ...(intervention) MS COLERIDGE You just broadly stated on page 3, the third line, you said "They also participated in the assault" Can you just tell us who the "they" were and what their roles were? MR CHAUKE So as I've already mentioned here that I ordered Joseph to hand over the petrol he was holding and that he must stay behind and keep a lookout for the forces if they would come, and also advised Clement and the others that we had taken Rambo to Kabo. So coming to your question, here it is stated in the last paragraph "Alfred poured petrol over him ..." ...(intervention) MS COLERIDGE Yes, just stop there. I'm not talking about the incident where he was burnt and taken away from his house, I'm talking about the time when he was in the house where the assault took place. I want to know what each person did. MR CHAUKE I've already stated it here in the second paragraph, I said "And I went to him and attacked him with an axe. My comrades had sticks and stones." Referring to the complainant(sic). "They participated in the assault. We then dragged Rambo out and took him to Kabo Primary School." MS COLERIDGE Mr Chauke, either you don't know what your other comrades had done at that particular time, you can tell us that, or you could see what they were doing at the time. And you're saying they had sticks and stones, did they hit the deceased with the sticks and stones or were they just in possession of the sticks and stones. MR CHAUKE That's right they did - no, the did hit the deceased with the sticks and stones. MS COLERIDGE Now please Mr Chauke, who hit the deceased with the sticks? MR CHAUKE As I've already mentioned here that my comrades had sticks and stones, because I've ordered the two comrades, that is Clement Modau and Joseph Motsepe to stay alert outside, so Reginald Simelane hit Mr Masinga with a stick, Alfred Simelane also hit him with the sticks and stones. MS COLERIDGE So they threw him with the stones. MR CHAUKE Ja. MS COLERIDGE And then just another question. You stated - all the applicants stated in their application forms that Benjamin harassed the community, can you just tell us what did that entail? MR CHAUKE Well that one can say as members of the student organisations we were unlawfully holding meetings and then what the State used to do in terms of if they can hear that there is a gathering, illegal gathering in a certain township, they sent the police force there and then what Mr Masinga was doing - you know a person is very much to be, you can see that no, in that particular vehicle there's a person is notorious there you see, by means of firing teargas to the students. And in our gathering, maybe in the evening or the following day after there it would happen that maybe there is a comrade who fell during incident of shooting and whatsoever. Now as student activists, one student would give that information that now you see, a certain cop there in that vehicle is the one who is calling himself Mr Rambo, that is why he was so notorious. That's how I can answer that. MS COLERIDGE So who actually gave you the information regarding Benjamin? MR CHAUKE The person who gave the information regarding Mr Masinga - I just can't understand your question clearly, meaning who gave information that where he is or? MS COLERIDGE That he was targeting the community and harassing the community and that he was actually a target. Who told you that? MR CHAUKE As I've already explained that we are as student activists holding meetings and then one wouldn't know who is that particular person in an illegal gathering who is speaking, if a person is a student activist, wants to voice his voice, he just raises up his hand and then ...(intervention) MS COLERIDGE Just why I'm asking you that question is, firstly you had another target in mind, you had another policeman, you had your petrol bombs, you were ready to go and attack someone else's house. MR CHAUKE That's right. MS COLERIDGE And then on the spur of the moment it changed and you targeted Mr Masinga. MR CHAUKE That's right. MS COLERIDGE Now I just want to understand that. You didn't know the person or anything like that. MR CHAUKE No actually to answer that question there, what we were planning for - because the very same policeman which he was on our schedule for attack, it was just not a matter of that we were just going there to attack his house so that he can feel that no, a cop has been made by the United Democratic Front at that time that no, police officers, soldiers, should resign and join the democratic forces. MS COLERIDGE So did you have a schedule as you just said now? That the same policeman was on your schedule, did you have something like that? MR CHAUKE Yes. MS COLERIDGE And can you just explain to us what your schedule consisted of, who was on that schedule of yours? MR CHAUKE You see this policeman, I don't even know his name but I knew him as a uniform policeman and then according to our underground meetings that we had - during the night or during meetings we do conduct our own investigation that no, this certain policeman who is really refusing to join the forces where does he stay. MS COLERIDGE And then just Joseph, you said that he had the petrol can, is that Joseph Motsepe? MR CHAUKE That's right. MS COLERIDGE Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR KOOPEDI Nothing in re-examination, thanks Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI JUDGE DE JAGER You've said you underwent military training in Angola, the last sentence of your statement. MR CHAUKE Yes, yes, Chair. JUDGE DE JAGER Where in Angola? MR CHAUKE Where in Angola? I went to Luanda, from Luanda I was taken to Richard Bhani Molokwana military training camp in the eastern direction of Angola. JUDGE DE JAGER Which training camp? MR CHAUKE Richard Bani Molokwana training camp. ADV SIGODI I just want some clarity on your association with the lady who came into the house to tell you that Rambo in the house opposite you. Did she know that on that day you were planning to attack a policeman, any policeman? MR CHAUKE No, she didn't know because as I've already explained that no, we were working as an underground what-you-call, we were working underground by then. What she knew only was that I am the political activist in that area. ADV SIGODI So what I want to find out is why did she come to tell you that there was a policeman there? MR CHAUKE She came to tell me that there was a policeman in the house because of she knew and she heard some various calls from the United Democratic Front, COSAS, that no, at this stage in time people should isolate police and soldiers because these people they are the ones who are disturbing the way forward to democracy. ADV SIGODI In other words, she came to you because she wanted you to do something about this policeman? MR CHAUKE What I can say there is I cannot answer for her, what I can say is she came there knowing that we are political activists and then we are the people who can try and solve the situation. ADV SIGODI And you say that you didn't know this policeman before, you'd never seen him. MR CHAUKE That's right, ja. ADV SIGODI So when you entered the house what steps did you take to make sure that the person whom you attacked was in fact actually a policeman? MR CHAUKE May you please repeat your question. ADV SIGODI I want to know, when you entered the house you found him sitting there alone, is that right? MR CHAUKE Yes. ADV SIGODI And what steps did you take to confirm that he was in fact the desired target? MR CHAUKE As I've already mentioned in my statement, it's the second paragraph there, that when this lady came she came and told me that no, there is a policeman that is Rambo inside the house and then I imagined that name, ...(indistinct) is that notorious cop who is destabilising our political activists in this township. ADV SIGODI So when you entered, the first person you saw you just assumed that he must be the policeman that you were told about. MR CHAUKE I didn't assume, the lady told me that he's a policeman. JUDGE DE JAGER What bothers my colleague, it could have been the owner of the house sitting there, how did you know it's a policeman and not an innocent man sitting there? MR CHAUKE Because you know we had - as comrades we had a belief that any kind of an informer wouldn't just disclose a false statement to comrades because they knew by then that comrades were people who didn't take any information that wouldn't lead them to the correct channel. ADV SIGODI So when she told you that there is a policeman or there is a target in the house, what else did she say to you? MR CHAUKE Nothing. ADV SIGODI She just left her home, came to your house, called you outside, spoke to you alone and said to you "there's a policeman in the house". MR CHAUKE That's right. ADV SIGODI But then so what, what could she possibly expect you to do? Did she say anything else that she wanted you to do? MR CHAUKE No, she didn't, she came there as a person who was just coming to highlight the comrades that no, there is a target situated in a certain house. ADV SIGODI Did she say there is a target in the house? MR CHAUKE That's right, that's what she said. She said there's a policeman there and it's a target and she mentioned the name of Rambo. ADV SIGODI So she knew that you were targeting policemen. MR CHAUKE She knew that. CHAIRPERSON And she said the name Rambo? MR CHAUKE That's right, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Will you please look at the bundle at page 11, well that is the typed version, at page 12 is the handwritten version. Is that a letter written by you to the Amnesty Committee? MR CHAUKE That's the letter, Chairperson. That's right. CHAIRPERSON In which you say "Sir, I killed Mr Masinga because he was a former South African Police. He was defending the policy of the former apartheid regime. Mr Masinga was not active in politics, instead he was against politics. By then South Africa was at war and the former SAPs and SADF members were ordered by the apartheid regime to kill, arrest, detain and abduct political activists who were members of the democratic movements who were fighting the former apartheid regime." Is that what you wrote? MR CHAUKE Yes, Sir, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Right, thank you. And now one other matter I'd like to clarify. You've told us a bit about your giving evidence and that was on the 25th of April 1986, six days after the killing, is that correct? MR KOOPEDI Which page was that, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Page 95. The bottom of the page, the last paragraph you say "The sister-in-law of the deceased, the young woman, had told us there's a policeman in the house, we must come and kill him and she will go and look for forces to kill the policeman." Did you say that? MR CHAUKE No, Mr Chair, I never said that. CHAIRPERSON So the record is wrong? MR CHAUKE Ja, this record is wrong. CHAIRPERSON And so you went, it is recorded as you're saying "She then went to the shebeen. After about 10 minutes I followed her. I went there to call her. She came and said there aren't any people there." Did you say that? Did you go and call her from the shebeen? MR CHAUKE No, Mr Chairman. As I've already indicated in my statement where I met the lady and I did not. CHAIRPERSON Yes, so once again the Court record is defective? MR CHAUKE Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And it's then recorded as saying "She said that she would go into the house and turn off the light as the policeman was in the sitting-room. He was in the chair and he was asleep." MR CHAUKE No, that she did not mention to me. CHAIRPERSON "After the light was turned off she called us and we went into the house. The person who went in first was Clement." MR CHAUKE No, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON So all this is wrongly recorded, wrongly interpreted? MR CHAUKE Yes, Mr Chairman, if one can take a thorough trace and make a very thorough trace, most of these statements that time when we were tried, Mr Chairman, they were solemnly(?) written by the cops. CHAIRPERSON This was evidence you gave before the Court, it was not something written by a policeman. This is the recording of the evidence given before the Magistrate. MR CHAUKE I do understand what the Chairperson is saying, that is why I'm saying that I am denying that. CHAIRPERSON It was written by the cops, it was testified to by you. What I have been reading from is, as your counsel will explain to you, is a transcript of the Court record. JUDGE DE JAGER And it was a tape recording by Lubbe Opnames, like we've got a tape recording here. MR CHAUKE Yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON And you say all this is wrong, you didn't say any of what I have read to you? MR CHAUKE Yes, Mr Chairman, as I've already indicated while I was asked by the attorney, Mr Nyawuza, that all this other incident that one confessed during that time, it was in terms of defending himself that one mustn't be prosecuted. CHAIRPERSON But this isn't confessing, this isn't defending yourself, this is merely telling what happened. MR CHAUKE Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER And you go on, it's stated here "Clement had an axe with him. Clement hit him on the forehead with the axe." Did you say so in Court, or is this also wrongly recorded? MR CHAUKE That is why, Mr Chairman, as Mr Chairman can say that all this what-you-call, a record, the main reason that I made the one to say this is true, it was that one wanted to be, not be prosecuted by the Court of law. JUDGE DE JAGER No, what I'm asking you now, what I've read to you, was that also wrongly recorded or was it in fact correctly recorded as your statement in Court? MR CHAUKE This Mr Chairman, as I've already answered that no, I came here to tell the Committee, the Commission, about exactly what happened. JUDGE DE JAGER Ja, no I'm not asking you that, listen to the question please. I'm asking you whether this was wrongly recorded or whether it was correctly recorded. MR CHAUKE It was correctly recorded. JUDGE DE JAGER But the rest of the previous paragraph was wrongly recorded, according to what you've told us a minute ago. MR CHAUKE That's right, Mr Chairman, as I've already explained to the Chair and the Committee that no, for me to say the previously that were not correctly recorded, I couldn't actually clearly understand what Mr Chairman wanted to put this as the what-you-call, as one what I've said or as one said this according to the Investigation Officer. CHAIRPERSON I still don't understand. What I asked you was, "did you say this in Court?", and you said "No" it's not what you said. MR CHAUKE That is why I reiterated to Mr Chairman, I did get the clarity from Judge de Jager there, so presently to rectify what I've answered to you, Mr Judge, I said it's correct. CHAIRPERSON So this is what you told the Magistrate? MR CHAUKE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You told the Magistrate that you went looking for this young woman at the shebeen, you called her out of the shebeen. MR CHAUKE According to the - that is why I said that this statement is the statement of the, which was made by the then security officers who were investigating this thing. And then I did explain to the Committee that during my taking to Court, I was escorted by the very same Security Forces who arrested me and then inside the vehicle they threatened me that no, "you are going to talk this statement, you've got nothing to do with your own statement". CHAIRPERSON So are you saying now that the Security Police told you to say that you followed this young girl to the shebeen and called her out of the shebeen? MR CHAUKE That's right, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON They made that up, it's not true. That's what you're saying now. MR CHAUKE As I've already said, Mr Chairman, that this statement is from the Security Forces. I'm having my ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I am asking you simply, is it true or not. MR CHAUKE It's not true, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Not true. MR CHAUKE Ja. CHAIRPERSON And she didn't go in and turn out the lights. MR CHAUKE No. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, that is the evidence for this applicant. MR KOOPEDI I would then ask permission to call in the next applicant, if there are no further questions for this applicant. CHAIRPERSON Who is the next one? MR KOOPEDI We will call Simelane, Reginald Jabu Simelane. JUDGE DE JAGER Could I just hear from the previous witness, who is "seun"? Sorry Mr Chauke, could you tell me who is "seun"? MR CHAUKE That's Mr Joseph Motsepe. JUDGE DE JAGER Thanks. WITNESS EXCUSED MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, Mr Simelane is ready to be sworn in. Reginald Simelane. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before we go on with that, there was a lot said by the previous applicant and it appeared also from the portion that I put to him of the transcript of the evidence given at the trial, about this young woman whom he called Linkie. Has she been notified as an implicated party? MS COLERIDGE Chairperson, not according to my knowledge. It's just that there was no name mentioned of this particular person, Chairperson, and so for that reason as well we were uncertain ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well he mentions the relationship, it's not just some unknown person. MS COLERIDGE I take your point, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Shouldn't she be notified? And on the evidence we have heard and appeared, she appeared to have gone to call them. MS COLERIDGE Chairperson, just also if my memory serves me correct, it was also - I can't point you in the right direction, but I'm sure I can find it, where one of the applicants state that they actually also approached this woman and they knew that this girl was the sister-in-law of the policeman, Chairperson, and therefore it didn't seem as if it was an implicated person but actually themselves went to this person, and I must just get the page reference. So therefore in our minds, Chairperson, she wasn't an implicated person in the way the applicant is describing her now, but it was almost as if they as a group went to this woman or this girl and said, and almost said "is he there" for instance, "is he at home" or something to that effect, and therefore we didn't notify her, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I think it's something that should be looked into. JUDGE DE JAGER ...(inaudible) put it to him then, that that was the case. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF