amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-03-20 PRETORIA 1 ROBBIE BONGANI MABUZA AM6402/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54089&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200320pt.htm MR KOOPEDI The applicant is ready to be sworn in and he will be giving evidence in Zulu. ROBBIE BONGANI MABUZA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mabuza, I am showing to you page 29 of the bundle of documents before this Honourable Committee and on page 29 there's an application form, is this your application form? MR MABUZA Yes, that is correct. MR KOOPEDI And on page 36 of - in fact, page 35 of the same bundle of documents which I'm showing to you, there's a signature that appears at the bottom there, is that your signature? MR MABUZA Yes, that's my signature. MR KOOPEDI Now is it correct that you have prepared a statement which would assist you in giving evidence in this matter? MR MABUZA That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Would you please proceed and - yes, we will proceed and mark it Exhibit C. Would you please proceed and read this statement to the Honourable Committee. MR MABUZA "I confirm that I was during 1986, a member of COSAS and Student Representative Council. I confirm further that I became a member of an underground unit commanded by Andrew Chauke. I confirm what Andrew has said and confirm in particular that I participated in assaulting Rambo Ben Masinga. I used a stick and stones to assault Rambo and assisted in dragging him to Kabo School. I set him alight after Alfred had poured petrol over him." MR KOOPEDI Now regard being had to what you've just told this Honourable Committee and what you co-applicant and your then Commander, Mr Chauke, has told this Honourable Committee, do you think that you have told this Honourable Committee everything that you remember about this matter? MR MABUZA Yes, I have divulged everything. MR KOOPEDI Now did you benefit anything financially or personally for having taken part in this operation? MR MABUZA The only benefit was that we sent a message to the then government, that was our benefit, nothing else. MR KOOPEDI Now in your mind was this action politically motivated and would it then have a political objective? MR MABUZA Very much so, it was politically motivated because the police and the councillors - the police and the councillors had to be isolated. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson, that will be the evidence-in-chief for this applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA Thank you, Mr Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members. Mr Mabuza, on the day in your question your initial operation was to attack a police officer's house, is that correct? MR MABUZA That is correct. MR NYAWUZA And in the planning of when you did these petrol bombs and everything, is it correct that you didn't have arms at that time? MR MABUZA Yes, we didn't have weaponry except for the petrol bombs. MR NYAWUZA And still you were going to attack a police officer's house, is that so? MR MABUZA Yes. MR NYAWUZA And then here comes this Linkie, she says here's this Rambo and tactics change, you now opt to arm yourselves with sticks and the other items that were used in hitting on the head, why? MR MABUZA Because the intention was to attack the police's house, we didn't have weaponry except for the petrol bombs. MR NYAWUZA What in essence were you going to do in the attack of this other police officer's house? Were you going to throw the petrol bomb and then flee or you were going to throw the petrol bomb, wait for him to come out and kill him? MR MABUZA We would hurl the petrol bombs. MR NYAWUZA And then run away? MR MABUZA Yes, then run away. MR NYAWUZA So you had your operation altered, what did you have, what is it that you had as weaponry? MR MABUZA I would say because we didn't have weaponry, Andrew suggested to us that we should try and secure ourselves weapons. I had a stick and stones. MR NYAWUZA So you walk into this house, here's the person that you've been told is in the house, in what position was he, was he seated or was he lying? MR MABUZA He was sitting. MR NYAWUZA In what position - was he seated like myself - look at me, Mr Mabuza, was he seated like myself or was he lying like this? CHAIRPERSON The questioner lowered his head till it was resting on the table in front of him. MR NYAWUZA Can the Chairperson please come again, I didn't pick that up. CHAIRPERSON I said the questioner lowered his head till it was resting on the table in front of him, when he described it merely as "Was he sitting like this?" MR NYAWUZA Thank you, thank you. Did he have his head lowered to the table or was he rested(sic)? MR MABUZA I would not say how he was sitting because when we walked into the house we filed one after another, so that on entering everything happened so quick. MR NYAWUZA Mr Mabuza, I wish to refer you to page 31 of the bundle in your amnesty application, I think it's line 9(a).4 on page 31, where you state that "While he was still in the house we then armed ourselves with an axe, brick stones. We went to the house where he was sitting. The door was open when we entered the house. He was sitting on the chair, his face lying on the table." Did you also make this statement under duress? MR MABUZA No. MR NYAWUZA No what, Mr Mabuza? MR MABUZA No, I was not under duress on making this statement. MR NYAWUZA So which is the correct statement, was he seated or was his face lying down? Which one do we have to believe today? MR MABUZA Yes, he was sitting at the table. MR NYAWUZA Was his face lying on the table or not? MR MABUZA On entering the house we cannot say whether he was sitting in that position because he had been beaten by the person who was in front of us or not, I just cannot say. MR NYAWUZA According to the testimony of Reginald Simelane, Reginald was second in the line as you entered the house, can you kindly tell us where you were at, were you number four or were you number three? MR MABUZA I was the last one. MR NYAWUZA So when you entered the house, am I correct in saying he had already been assaulted? Correct me if I'm wrong. MR MABUZA I wouldn't say whether it's correct or not. MR NYAWUZA But in your application you stated that he was lying with his face down. Why did you mention that, why didn't you clearly say "when I came in he had been attacked already"? MR MABUZA Yes, he had his head bowed. MR NYAWUZA So now you agree that he had his face lying down? MR MABUZA Yes. MR NYAWUZA What role did you play in the killing of the deceased? MR MABUZA I assaulted him with a stick and stones, after which I assisted the others to drag him to the school. At the school, Alfred poured petrol over him and I set him alight. MR NYAWUZA Were you - you were students at the time, is that correct? MR MABUZA That is correct. MR NYAWUZA Were you well-known activists in the area? MR MABUZA At school yes, I was very active. MR NYAWUZA Having doused the deceased with petrol and setting him alight, why did you run away? MR MABUZA We had concluded our operation. MR NYAWUZA Why did you burn him? MR MABUZA As I am saying, there was a call to isolate the police and soldiers, that is why I set him alight. MR NYAWUZA Can you put in the know-how as regard isolation, tell me what isolation meant in struggle terms. MR MABUZA Isolation meant that the police and soldiers were persona non grata, they interfered in many things that we wanted to do as students. That is the reason why the police, soldiers and councillors had their houses burnt. JUDGE DE JAGER Did that include killing them? Should you burn their houses or should you kill them? What was the instruction? MR MABUZA Yes, burning them as well as their houses, their children and everything. MR NYAWUZA Mr Mabuza, I seem to be having a problem here because we're having a situation on this particular day where a police officer is going to be attacked way before the thought of killing the deceased comes to mind, you are attacking people of the same stature, both are police officers, but on the one hand the one that you are attacking you don't have kieries and the other items that were used there and when you attacked this particular person you have to arm yourselves, you know you just decide on the spur of the moment that "guy's, no, no, let's arm ourselves, let's go and get kieries and all", but you are attacking people who are working for the same organisation. Why? If you can just tell me why we used arms in this particular case and in this other case we wanted to use petrol bombs? Just clarify me on that, why? MR MABUZA With regards to the other policeman, we were only going to burn his house down, just to send a message that his activities are not welcome. MR NYAWUZA And then this other one? MR MABUZA With regards to Benjamin, he was in the neighbourhood and he was also a target. At that time he was an important legitimate target and that is how it came about that we changed operations. MR NYAWUZA Weren't both these police officers targets? In simpler terms, weren't they both targets? MR MABUZA Yes, they were. MR NYAWUZA So you agree with me that both were targets? MR MABUZA Yes, they were. MR NYAWUZA No further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE Thank you, Chairperson. I just want to ask the applicant a few questions. How long were you a member of the underground unit? MR MABUZA Two years. MS COLERIDGE And were you and Mr Chauke and everyone else, at Saulsridge High School? Were you also at that high school? MR MABUZA Yes, we were all attending school there. MS COLERIDGE And at the time of this incident did you regard Mr Chauke as your Commander? MR MABUZA Yes, he was the Commander. MS COLERIDGE Did you have a discretion in this instance, in this matter, did you have a discretion to say "no, I couldn't proceed with this matter", or were you under the orders and command of Mr Chauke? MR MABUZA I participated voluntarily. MS COLERIDGE So do you say that you could actually say "look, I don't want to carry on with this mission anymore"? Was that discretion up to you in the end? MR MABUZA Yes, I did. MS COLERIDGE So why didn't you inform the people that were with you in this mission, why didn't you say "look, I don't want to proceed with this incident anymore, I don't want to kill somebody, I don't want to eliminate them"? Why did you continue with this operation? MR MABUZA I was in Mr Chauke's unit and I was part of the unit and I participate in all the acts that were carried out by the unit. MS COLERIDGE Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE MR KOOPEDI No re-exam, Chairperson, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI JUDGE DE JAGER Could you have a look at page 33, paragraph 11(b), you've been asked to state particulars of the orders or approval and then you gave an answer about your motive for killing, what really inspired you to participate in this killing? MR MABUZA Please repeat the question. JUDGE DE JAGER What really inspired you to participate in this killing? Was there any order or speech given by somebody who inspired you to kill policemen? MR MABUZA With regards to what I wrote here, there was a call made by Mrs Mandela to the effect that police and soldiers and other State apparatus should be isolated. JUDGE DE JAGER You told us that you agree with the affidavit of Mr Chauke, and he stated "I asked Clement to go and quickly find other activists as we wanted all the activists to see that the notorious Rambo has finally met with the strong arm of the revolution." So you wanted the people to come and witness this killing and burning of Rambo, is that correct? MR MABUZA That's correct. JUDGE DE JAGER Now why didn't you wait until all the people are there, assembled there, so that they could witness the killing of this notorious policeman? MR MABUZA We had to operate quickly because we did not know how long we were going to wait for him to return and we didn't even know if he was going to be able to get those people he was looking for. JUDGE DE JAGER And on another aspect, when you arrived at this house, was the door standing open or was it closed, but unlocked? What was the position as far as the front door, the sitting-room's door was concerned? MR MABUZA As I mentioned before I was the last one in line, so when I entered the door was already opened. JUDGE DE JAGER Ja, that would have been so, you entering, but you should have seen. Approaching the house, was the door open or was it closed and Chauke turned the handle and walked in or what was the position? MR MABUZA I would say Mr Chauke opened the door. JUDGE DE JAGER And there was nobody else in the house? MR MABUZA No. JUDGE DE JAGER Not even a baby? MR MABUZA No. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you go back to the house after you've killed him? MR MABUZA No, we did not. JUDGE DE JAGER You threw stones at him, is that correct? MR MABUZA Yes, I did. JUDGE DE JAGER So the stones were lying there in the sitting-room. MR MABUZA ...(no English interpretation) JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, I couldn't hear the answer. MR MABUZA Yes, they were left there. JUDGE DE JAGER The stones were left there in the sitting-room? MR MABUZA Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER So everybody could see that the killing actually took place in the sitting-room? There must have been blood there, is that correct? MR MABUZA Yes, there was blood there. JUDGE DE JAGER And you didn't try to remove the blood spots or the stones which had blood on them? MR MABUZA No, we only removed the deceased. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Are you sure that there was no-one else in the house? MR MABUZA I am not certain because I did not go into other rooms. CHAIRPERSON See we have a statement from somebody who says he was sitting in the kitchen at the time and saw what happened. MR MABUZA Did he see me? I do not understand the question. CHAIRPERSON I was just seeking to confirm that there was no-one else there, because we have been given a statement from a man who says he was sitting in the kitchen at the time. MR MABUZA I do not know about that. JUDGE DE JAGER And this man actually says that Andrew spoke to him. MR MABUZA I do not know about it. JUDGE DE JAGER And asked him for a pliers. - after the killing. MR MABUZA I do not know about that. CHAIRPERSON He's an old man of 75 years old, Solly Lekubu. MR MABUZA I do not know him. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson, that will be the case for this applicant. We beg leave to call in the last applicant in the matter, Mr Simelane again. WITNESS EXCUSED MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, Mr Chauke would like to leave the table to answer a nature's call. Would it be appropriate for him to do so? He has given his evidence and I believe he does not need to be recalled. Just so as to make sure that we do not stall these hearings unnecessarily. CHAIRPERSON Very well.