amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-03-20 PRETORIA 1 REGINALD JABU SIMELANE AM6500/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54093&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200320pt_pre.htm ON RESUMPTION MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, Mr Simelane is ready to be sworn in. ADV SIGODI What language is he going to speak? MR KOOPEDI He wishes to speak in Zulu. REGINALD JABU SIMELANE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson, we will proceed. Mr Simelane, I will refer you to page thirteen of the bundle of documents which I am showing to you now. On page thirteen of this bundle of documents there's an application, is this your application form? MR SIMELANE Yes. MR KOOPEDI On page 19 of the same bundle of documents there is a signature, is that your signature? MR SIMELANE Yes. MR KOOPEDI Now you have prepared a brief statement to support your application or to be your evidence-in-chief, is that correct? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, perhaps we could mark that Exhibit B, that would be the statement of Jabu Simelane. Would you then read to this Honourable Committee your statement. MR SIMELANE "My name is Reginald Jabu Simelane. I confirm that I was during 1986, a member of COSAS and Student Representative Council. I confirm further that I became a member of an underground unit commanded by Andrew Chauke. I confirm what Andrew had said, and confirm in particular that I participated in assaulting and killing Rambo Ban Masinga. I had a stick with me which I used on him. I also assisted in dragging him to Kabo Primary School." That's all. MR KOOPEDI Now Mr Simelane, your evidence together with what was said by your co-applicant, which you confirmed, do you think that you have fully disclosed to this Honourable Committee what your role and status was at that time? MR SIMELANE Yes, that is the truth. MR KOOPEDI Now did you receive any financial or personal benefit out of attacking and killing the deceased? MR SIMELANE No. MR KOOPEDI Would you regard this action as having politically motivated and also having a political objective? MR SIMELANE Yes, this offence was politically motivated. As indicated in my statement that I was an activist at school and I was a member of COSAS, so that everything that I did, we all did this as people who were fighting the then government, so that we were fighting the enemy of the community. ADV SIGODI Could you ask him to speak a little bit slower, for interpretation. Thanks. MR KOOPEDI Would you repeat what you've just said. MR SIMELANE The objective of killing the deceased was political, there was no financial motivation. I was a member of COSAS at the time. I was also a member of the Student Representative Council at school, and we did everything that we did fighting the then government and this included attacking the police and State apparatus. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson, that will be the evidence-in-chief of this applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI MR NYAWUZA Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Reginald Simelane, is it correct that on the day in question you held a meeting, an SRC meeting with Andrew Chauke, Ruben Mabuza, Clement Modau, Alfred Simelane and Joseph Motsepe? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MR NYAWUZA Can you kindly tell this hearing how many of you comprised, made up the SRC. MR SIMELANE Are you referring to this one particular meeting or are you referring to the membership of the SRC? MR NYAWUZA I'm referring to the membership of the SRC. MR SIMELANE To answer this question I would say there were six of us on the day of the attack, but the entire SRC Committee comprised thirteen members. CHAIRPERSON Thirteen? MR NYAWUZA 13. So in meetings of - what formed the quorum for an SRC to hold a meeting as there were thirteen members. How many of you would form a quorum and say "look the decision that we're taking here today will be binding on the other members who are absent today"? MR SIMELANE There were six of us SRC members and at the same time we were members of the underground movement that had been formed. The thirteen members does not necessarily refer to the SRC members but it refers to the general Committee of the SRC. MR NYAWUZA So, I'm not able ...(intervention) INTERPRETER May the speaker please repeat the answer. MR SIMELANE There were thirteen of us members of the SRC that was at high school and on the 19th there were sixteen(sic) of us SRC members. MR NYAWUZA And were you representing the underground movement on this particular day, or the SRC? MR SIMELANE We were an underground movement. MR NYAWUZA So in essence this was not an SRC meeting, it was an underground cell meeting, is that so? MR SIMELANE On those particular days we used to hold meetings and other comrades had not yet arrived. On that day we had a meeting convened for the SRC, but other members had not yet arrived. MR NYAWUZA Mr Simelane, on this particular day were you holding a meeting for the SRC, or for the underground movement, or for both? MR SIMELANE On that day our underground movement was planning an operation with an intention to burn the house of our target. MR NYAWUZA And who was your target on this particular day? MR SIMELANE Burning the house of a policeman. MR NYAWUZA Who was this police officer whose house was going to be burnt? MR SIMELANE Sithole who resided as Siso. MR NYAWUZA How far is Siso from where you held the meeting? MR SIMELANE In terms of kilometres I would say more-or-less four kilometres. MR NYAWUZA I am not so good with distances, but if you can - we're now at Visagie and Andries, how far from here to Church Street? Do you go beyond Church Street or is it the other side of Church Street? MR SIMELANE Yes, you'd go past Church Street. You'd go as down as the taxi rank. MR NYAWUZA So where you waiting for other comrades to pitch up or the six of you were okay? MR SIMELANE We were waiting for other comrades to arrive. MR NYAWUZA And did you see this Linkie come in and call Andrew? MR SIMELANE No, I only heard someone call him, but I didn't see that person. MR NYAWUZA Where was Andrew at the time of Linkie calling him, was he with you in this meeting or was he in the kitchen? Where was he? MR SIMELANE He was in the meeting with us. MR NYAWUZA This meeting, were you holding this meeting in a house that's divided into separate rooms or you were holding it somewhere else? Can you just put us in the vicinity of the meeting? MR SIMELANE There was a shack on the premises, that is where we held this meeting, in this shack. JUDGE DE JAGER Was that at the house of one, Gilbert? MR SIMELANE That was Andrew Chauke's parent's place. MR NYAWUZA How long had you known Andrew Chauke? MR SIMELANE I had known him from school. I think it was about two years since I had known him. MR NYAWUZA Where was he resident at all times? Did you know where he was resident? Sorry. MR SIMELANE Andrew Chauke used to reside at Serote, where he resided with his grandmother, but he was originally from Tembisa. MR NYAWUZA So in the two years that you had known Andrew Chauke, will I be correct in saying he had been residing at his grandmother's house at Serote? MR SIMELANE I knew him from school because we were both activists. MR NYAWUZA My question Mr Simelane is, in the two years that you've known him, when both of you were attending the same school, would I be correct if I say he was staying at Serote? MR SIMELANE As I have explained that he came from Tembisa, but he used to visit his grandmother at Serote. MR NYAWUZA Mr Simelane, Andrew Chauke is from Tembisa, that is what you're telling us today. MR SIMELANE Yes. MR NYAWUZA And is it correct that you and Andrew were attending school in Saulsville? Is it Saulsville or Saulsridge? MR SIMELANE Saulsridge yes, that's correct. MR NYAWUZA And then is it further correct that Andrew Chauke stayed with his granny during his years of schooling at Saulsridge, is that so? MR KOOPEDI That has not been the evidence, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Are you putting this to him? MR NYAWUZA Chairperson, the evidence of Andrew Chauke was that he'd been staying at 35 Serote Street for three months. Mr Chauke, in the two years that you had known ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, you're not addressing Mr Chauke now, you're addressing Mr Simelane. MR NYAWUZA Mr Simelane, excuse me. Mr Simelane, in the two years that you had known Mr Chauke, of common cause is that he was from Tembisa, of further common cause is that both of you were attending at Saulsridge High or, but you were attending school in Saulsridge, Pretoria, and of further common cause is that he was staying with his granny at 35 Serote Street, is that so? MR SIMELANE As I have explained I had known him from school, we were both activists, but he only used to visit his grandmother at Serote Street, but whether he was resident there permanently or not, I cannot say. MR NYAWUZA So you in essence ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I don't think it's correct to say that was common cause, that was your version and it has not been to by the applicant. MR NYAWUZA I withdraw that, Mr Chairperson. Mr Simelane, how far were you resident from 35 Serote Street? MR SIMELANE From my home it could have been more than fifteen houses, I can say it was about fifteen houses away from my home. MR NYAWUZA So in terms of minutes walk, you'd walk about five minutes to where Andrew was resident? MR SIMELANE Yes. MR NYAWUZA And then in relation to the other co-applicants, would you regard the distance that you were staying from Andrew as closer or further than the others? MR SIMELANE No, the distance is not the same. MR NYAWUZA Ja, I'm saying in relation to yours, would you say you were nearer or you were further than some of them? MR SIMELANE Andrew was closest to me. MR NYAWUZA So would you on occasion - how often, to put it, did you go to Andrew's granny's place at Serote? MR SIMELANE As I have mentioned before, we were at his place when we held the meeting. We were not close friends, such that we could visit him all the time, but our association was political because we were activists. MR NYAWUZA So he was ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before you go on. Was this house, the house in Serote Street, was that his grandmother's house? MR SIMELANE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Not his parents' place? MR SIMELANE His parents' home was at Tembisa. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I take it you'll be some time. MR NYAWUZA I think we can adjourn, Honourable Chair. CHAIRPERSON Till when shall we adjourn? MR NYAWUZA When the Committee's ready. CHAIRPERSON What time do you think? MS COLERIDGE I suggest one thirty or quarter to two. CHAIRPERSON Well shall we say one thirty if we are ready at one thirty, I don't know what arrangements have been made for everybody, including all the applicants. If we are ready, one thirty, otherwise quarter to two. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, I don't know if it would be unreasonable to try and suggest to the Committee, my learned friends and the people supporting us, that there are only two other applicants left who have very short evidence, wouldn't we rather perhaps finish that and take the lunch adjournment when we're finished? I don't know what's the feeling of other people. MS COLERIDGE Chairperson, it's a bit more complicated than that, our Logistic Officers would obviously by now have arranged lunch for victims and all of us, so it would probably be a convenient time to adjourn. CHAIRPERSON Very well, we'll take the adjournment now. MS COLERIDGE All rise. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION REGINALD JABU SIMELANE (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA (Cont) Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Simelane, you stated that Andrew was called by this woman that you didn't see and then he went out, is that so? MR SIMELANE That's correct. MR NYAWUZA ...(inaudible) spoke to this girl and came back. MR SIMELANE She called him outside and then he returned into the house later on and informed us on what had transpired. MR NYAWUZA And then what did he tell you, what did Andrew tell you? MR SIMELANE When Andrew returned he informed us that we were no longer going to carry out the original operation because another more important operation had arisen. He told us that Rambo was in the neighbourhood, that is why we had to change and do that operation. MR NYAWUZA And you then took a decision to attack Rambo instead of taking the previous operation, is that so? MR SIMELANE That's correct. MR NYAWUZA What steps did you take after he had told you? What is it that you in actual fact did, what happened? MR SIMELANE After he had told us of Rambo's presence, we then planned on what to use, and I'm referring to weapons that we could use to attack the target. We then managed to get an axe and sticks as well as the petrol bombs that we had intended to use in the original operation. JUDGE DE JAGER Coming to that, this was a policeman, a notorious policeman, didn't he carry a weapon, a gun? MR SIMELANE We all know that police officers carry firearms, but on that day we did not know whether he had it in his possession or not. JUDGE DE JAGER So you went to kill him without yourself having a gun. MR SIMELANE That's correct. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you know that he was asleep? MR SIMELANE As I've already mentioned, Andrew went out to check what the situation was like and he returned, so we planned on surprising him. JUDGE DE JAGER He said what? What did he report back to you after he went to investigate? MR SIMELANE He informed us that the policeman was indeed in the house and he was alone. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, the policeman was? INTERPRETER In the house. JUDGE DE JAGER Did he say the policeman was asleep or what did he say? MR SIMELANE He said he was seated at a table, but did not explain whether he was asleep or doing any other thing. JUDGE DE JAGER And was the light burning in the room? MR SIMELANE It was dark. JUDGE DE JAGER So how did he see the man there, how did he know he was in the house? MR SIMELANE I am referring to the instance when we went into the house to attack him, it was dark then. JUDGE DE JAGER Right. When did it become dark in the house? Did somebody switch off the light? MR SIMELANE I do not know when the lights were switched off. MR NYAWUZA So you're in essence saying when you attacked this Rambo, you attacked him in darkness, is that so? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MR NYAWUZA Before we get into this house you are at Andrew Chauke's house, he tells you this, you arm yourselves, what did you specifically have as armoury? MR SIMELANE I had a stick. MR NYAWUZA And will I be correct if I say this house was facing next-door to the house that you were at? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MR NYAWUZA So you went across the street to this particular house where this Rambo was. MR SIMELANE That's correct. MR NYAWUZA How many of you were there, were there the six of you or you had other comrades, since you alluded to this Committee that you were waiting for some comrades as well? MR SIMELANE When we went into the house there were four of us. There were six people altogether, but the two had other tasks, one was supposed to stand guard outside and the other went to get reinforcements, so the four of us went to the house. MR NYAWUZA Which two stood outside? MR SIMELANE Joseph was keeping guard outside, Clement went out to look for reinforcements. CHAIRPERSON Where did he go? MR SIMELANE He went to call other comrades. MR NYAWUZA So you walked into this dark house and in what position did you find the deceased, was he seated, was he asleep, was he sitting on a sofa or on a chair like the one that you're sitting on? Give us the scenario. MR SIMELANE He was seated on a chair. He had his back on the chair. MR NYAWUZA Since it was darkness I don't want to be unfair to you, but would you perhaps have seen as to whether he was asleep or not? MR SIMELANE When we went into the house, Andrew was in front therefore I could not tell whether he was asleep or not because as we got into the house, Andrew was in front and he attacked first. MR NYAWUZA So you're saying Andrew attacked and then the rest followed, the three of you? Since you said there were six of you and two kept guard but like Clement went to call for some reinforcement, so the four of you that went into the house, Andrew started to hit first and what did you in particular do, were you the second one to hit or the last one to hit and what did you do in particular? MR SIMELANE I was the second one, Alfred was behind me and we took turns in assaulting the deceased. MR NYAWUZA Did you know this Rambo before, had you seen him? MR SIMELANE I had never seen him before. MR NYAWUZA So you were attacking someone you didn't know, how sure are you that you never killed the wrong Rambo? MR SIMELANE The attack was discussed prior to it taking place, that was after Andrew had been informed by the girl and the issue was discussed and it was confirmed that he was the correct target. MR NYAWUZA Had this girl not come to you and said Rambo is here, he's at her home, will I be correct if I say Rambo would still be alive today? MR SIMELANE I do not know about that because as was explained before, Rambo was notorious, so I cannot be certain whether he would still be alive today or not. MR NYAWUZA But if this girl hadn't come to you and told you that Rambo is in the house, he wouldn't have been killed on that particular day, am I correct in saying this was just an impromptu decision, that let's attack Rambo? MR SIMELANE That's correct. MR NYAWUZA Were you aware of any tiff, you know, a problem between Rambo and his wife, the so-called Rambo and his wife? MR SIMELANE No, I did not know anything about that. MR NYAWUZA Did you know Linkie before this incident? MR SIMELANE No, I did not. MR NYAWUZA No further questions, thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE Thank you, Chairperson. In relation to Clement, in your statement to the Investigating Officer and to another statement you made that I'd read out previously, you said that Clement hit the deceased with the axe, what is your comment today? MR SIMELANE After the incident, Andrew Chauke was arrested first and he then made a statement to the police. When I was arrested I was told by the police to sign that statement that Andrew had made, that statement alluding to the fact that Clement has assaulted the deceased first. MS COLERIDGE So that's why you stuck to the same story? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS COLERIDGE Tell me, do you know a Gilbert that also lives close to ...(intervention) MR SIMELANE No, I do not. MS COLERIDGE Because in the inquest where all of you had testified, as well as Linkie, she stated that she went to Gilbert to inform him that the deceased was a problem and that Andrew probably overheard it and he said that he would assist her. Do you know of anything like that, or any conversation regarding that? MR SIMELANE No, I do not known about that. MS COLERIDGE Tell us, did you see Linkie that night of the incident? MR SIMELANE No, ...(no English interpretation) MS COLERIDGE And the inquest, did you see her there as well? Did you see her there? MR SIMELANE I first saw her at the inquest. MS COLERIDGE And what did people tell you about Linkie at the inquest? What is your recollection of what Linkie had stated at the inquest? MR SIMELANE What I recall her being questioned on was how she knew Andrew. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you know Linkie before that? MR SIMELANE No, I did not. JUDGE DE JAGER Have you ever spoken to her before the incident? MR SIMELANE No. JUDGE DE JAGER You've never seen her before the incident? MR SIMELANE No. JUDGE DE JAGER The first time you saw her was at the inquest. MR SIMELANE That's correct. JUDGE DE JAGER Was there a baby in the house that evening when you killed Rambo? MR SIMELANE No, when we went into the house to kill the deceased everything happened quickly, but I did not see a baby. JUDGE DE JAGER Any other person present? MR SIMELANE No, he was alone. JUDGE DE JAGER How did you know, did you go into the other rooms to have a look whether other people were present? MR SIMELANE I am referring to the room that he was in, I do not about the other rooms because we did not investigate, we did not check. MS COLERIDGE You said that Clement, at the incident, Clement was actually sent out to go and look for other comrades in a sense, did he come back with more support? MR SIMELANE Clement left and by the time we finished the operation he had not returned. MS COLERIDGE What was your role in the incident, what exactly did you do? Can you just describe that to us. -at the house. MR SIMELANE I assaulted the deceased with a stick and I also dragged him from the house to the school, where he was burnt. MS COLERIDGE And did you have any stones as Mr Chauke had stated? MR SIMELANE No, I had a stick. MS COLERIDGE So Mr Chauke's evidence is incorrect, is that right? MR SIMELANE What are you referring to? MR SIMELANE No, it's not that material, but Mr Chauke said that you had stick and stone as well and that's how you assaulted the deceased. MR SIMELANE No, I only carried a stick, it was the others who had stones. MS COLERIDGE Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR KOOPEDI Nothing in re-exam, thank you Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI JUDGE DE JAGER Did somebody cut the fence? MR SIMELANE I think it was cut, but I do not recall who did. JUDGE DE JAGER With what did he do the cutting? MR SIMELANE I do not really recall whether when we went into the house it was already cut, or somebody came and cut the fence. ADV SIGODI When you entered this house were all the lights switched off or was it just a room where the deceased was sleeping, which had its lights off? MR SIMELANE The sitting-room is directly in front of the gate, so we just went straight into the sitting-room where the deceased was seated, therefore I did not notice whether other rooms had their lights on or not. ADV SIGODI Was this an ordinary four-roomed house in the township or was it a different house? MR SIMELANE It was a four-roomed house that had been extended in the front. ADV SIGODI But were you not in a position to see if there was any light coming, say from the kitchen or from the other rooms? MR SIMELANE The gate into the house is directly in front of the sitting-room and that is where we went and for you to be able to see into other rooms you would have to turn around the house. ADV SIGODI No, but surely if you are inside the sitting-room there are other doors leading from the other rooms into the sitting room. Were those doors closed or were they open? MR SIMELANE They were closed. ADV SIGODI So was it completely dark inside this room? MR SIMELANE It was not completely dark because there was an electric pole outside which shed some light. ADV SIGODI So you had light from the pole outside inside into the sitting-room, that is how you could see where the deceased was? MR SIMELANE Yes, it was not very dark, you could see where he was. ADV SIGODI But he could not be in a position to see who you were? MR SIMELANE His back was towards the door, so he could not have seen us. ADV SIGODI In other words, whoever switched off the lights may have done so with the purpose that whoever got inside would not be in a position to be identified. MR SIMELANE I do not know about that. ADV SIGODI How long did it take you to plan before going inside to kill the deceased? I mean, what was the time difference from the time that Linkie left you and the time that you went into the house, how long did it take you to plan the murder of the deceased? MR SIMELANE I would say this happened in the space of one hour. ADV SIGODI So after Linkie had told you that, or had told the first applicant that here's a policeman in the house and it's Rambo, it took you a whole hour. Now what was the conversation between the six of you within that hour? What were you discussing? MR SIMELANE We got delayed because we did not have weapons, we only had the petrol bombs at our disposal, that is what consumed a lot of time. We also had to discuss the roles that would be played by different individuals in the group. ADV SIGODI So this was a well-planned operation? MR SIMELANE I would say so. ADV SIGODI Where did you get the weapons from? MR SIMELANE We all went out to look for whatever weapons we could find. CHAIRPERSON Where did you go to to look? MR SIMELANE I went to my home and collected that stick and the others went to various different places. ADV SIGODI How far is your home from Mr Chauke's home? How long did it take you to get there? MR SIMELANE About five minutes. ADV SIGODI Right. So you went to your home and all you fetched was a stick? MR SIMELANE That's correct. ADV SIGODI At all times your intention was to kill the deceased, the only weapon that you went to fetch was a stick. MR SIMELANE Our intention was to kill the deceased, that is why we all went out in different directions to look for whatever weapons we could find. ADV SIGODI Why couldn't you get a more lethal weapon? MR SIMELANE That was the weapon I felt was suitable because it was not easy to use, to take weapons such as an axe from my home because they would have enquired as to what I was going to do with those. ADV SIGODI Alright. Now you have assaulted the deceased and you've dragged him out, were there people outside in the township who heard maybe the noise that somebody was being attacked? MR SIMELANE We did not see anyone. ADV SIGODI So there was no-one outside in the streets? MR SIMELANE We did not see anyone in the street. ADV SIGODI Now tell me, why was it necessary to burn the deceased? MR SIMELANE We were of the opinion that if we burn him it would send a clear message to everybody else including the community, that we were serious about what we were doing. ADV SIGODI So in other words, it would have sent a message that this was a political killing and not an ordinary killing, is that what you're saying? MR SIMELANE Ja, I could put it that way. ADV SIGODI Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now you've made various statements, do you remember that? MR SIMELANE Yes, I do remember. CHAIRPERSON Would you look at page 52 of the bundle please. Have you got that in front of you? MR SIMELANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now in the sixth paragraph you say "Ek het hom opgetel". "I picked him and took him to the toilet of the school. Andrew arrived there with petrol and threw it on him and told Appie that he must light it and we ran away." Do you see that passage? MR SIMELANE Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Now who is Appie? MR SIMELANE Ruben Mabuza. CHAIRPERSON Appie is who? MR SIMELANE Ruben Mabuza or Robbie Bongani Mabuza. CHAIRPERSON And you go on to say "When we came to the same house we took the mat near the door and threw it away." See that? MR SIMELANE Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Now which house was it that you were talking about there? MR SIMELANE The house in which the deceased was attacked. CHAIRPERSON And you then say "Another girl gave Andrew water and washed the blood off." MR SIMELANE Yes, I see that. CHAIRPERSON Who was this other girl? MR SIMELANE As I mentioned before, the police came to me with statements that we already made and told me to sign them. CHAIRPERSON So you're saying this was a police invention? MR SIMELANE That's correct. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you throw away the carpet, or the door mat? MR SIMELANE I did not see a mat. JUDGE DE JAGER But you went back to the same house? MR SIMELANE After we'd burnt him we fled. JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, maybe I understood you wrongly. I thought in answer to the question of the Chairperson, you told us that you went back to the same house and he asked you "which house was that?" and you said the house where the murder took place. Am I wrong? MR SIMELANE The Judge was reading a statement that was allegedly made by me. As I've just explained, these were prepared by the police and I was told to sign it. CHAIRPERSON But I asked you "Which was the same house." and you said - "I was talking of the house where the deceased was attacked." MR SIMELANE I was confirming the statements that the Judge was reading, not to say that I agree with the content of the statement. CHAIRPERSON I asked you what it meant and you explained what "dieselfde huis" was, now you're trying to change that, are you? Now you're saying you don't know, it's not what you meant to say. MR SIMELANE I am not trying to change because I mentioned that when we completed burning the deceased, we fled, we did not go back to any house. And I do not know anything about the mats. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, that will be the evidence and the case for this applicant. We would then beg leave to call the next applicant who is Robbie Bongani Mabuza.