amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-03-23 PRETORIA 3 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54100&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200323pt.htm CHAIRPERSON: We now resume the hearing of the application of Andrew Chauke and three others. The Committee and the legal representatives remain the same, save that they have become a little extended in that we have requested Linkie Matlala Mokgokong to give evidence and she has a legal representative. Could you put yourself on record please? MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. It's Anthony Richard, Johannesburg. CHAIRPERSON We have all been given and I take it you have also, copies of two statements made by the witness, two statements taken from her and we've also seen in the records a further statement which unfortunately will not photostat, it is very light print. If anybody wishes to read it, it is available. It accords almost entirely with the first statement we have been given, the longer statement. Are you going to call your client? MR RICHARD I call the client. May she be sworn. CHAIRPERSON What language will she be speaking? MR RICHARD Northern Sotho. LINKIE MATLALA MOKGOKONG (sworn states) MR RICHARD Thank you Chair, may I proceed? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RICHARD Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Ma'am, do you recall where you were on the evening of 19 April 1986? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I do. MR RICHARD At whose house were you then? MS MOKGOKONG It was at ...(indistinct) parents' house. MR RICHARD Now who lived in that house? MS MOKGOKONG My aunt and her husband and my grandfather. MR RICHARD Now when you describe this person as your aunt, what blood or marriage relationship did she have to you? MS MOKGOKONG On my mother's side. MR RICHARD Was she your mother's sister? MS MOKGOKONG My mother is her elder sister. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now to whom was this aunt married? MS MOKGOKONG Benjamin Masinga, Chairperson. MR RICHARD And for how long, as at April 1986, had they been married? MS MOKGOKONG They had some years, but I don't remember how many years. MR RICHARD Now were there problems in the marriage? MS MOKGOKONG There were times when they had problems. MR RICHARD And what were those problems? MS MOKGOKONG I would not know what kind of problems they had because when elder people talk about problems, we would just hear on the periphery that they were fighting, but we would not understand the content of their problems. MR RICHARD ; Now, at that weekend, the 19th of April, according to the documents before me, was a Saturday. Where was your aunt? MS MOKGOKONG She was at Soshanguve. MR RICHARD ; Why was she at Soshanguve and not at her home with her husband? MS MOKGOKONG She ran away from her husband. MR RICHARD Why did she run away? MS MOKGOKONG They were not living peacefully, that is why she decided to go to Soshanguve. MR RICHARD Why were you at that house? MS MOKGOKONG She requested me to stay behind so that her property would be safe. MR RICHARD From when did you start staying at that house that time? Was it the Friday, the Thursday, the Saturday? MR MOKGOKONG During the course of that week. MR RICHARD Now where was the deceased, Benjamin, from when you started staying? MS MOKGOKONG There were times when he would come and he would leave. MR RICHARD Now you said your grandfather stayed there as well. Is your grandfather Solly Lukubu? MS MOKGOKONG Correct, Chairperson. MR RICHARD And where was he staying then? Was he in the house as well that period? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Now, when did you see the deceased on the Saturday the 19th for the first time? MS MOKGOKONG Around past nine in the evening. MR RICHARD Would you please describe how it happened that he came back and what was special about his presentation to you? MS MOKGOKONG He came just to survey the house and then on that day he did not behave well. He was drunk and shouted at me. MR RICHARD And what did he say to you? MS MOKGOKONG He said to me we made his wife to run away, therefore I must be his wife because he's married, he cannot sleep alone. MR RICHARD And what was your reaction to that? MS MOKGOKONG I was scared, then I waited for him to sit down, then I ran away. MR RICHARD Where did he sit down? MS MOKGOKONG In the dining room on the chair. MR RICHARD ; What did he do whilst sitting down there? MS MOKGOKONG It seemed that he's becoming more drunk. MR RICHARD Where was your grandfather, Mr Lukubu at that time? MS MOKGOKONG At the time he went to prayer meeting at the funeral. MR RICHARD Did he come back that night? MS MOKGOKONG Correct, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Now at the time that you left the house, was your grandfather in the house yet? MS MOKGOKONG No, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Now you say you ran away from the house. MS MOKGOKONG That is correct, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Now where did you go to? MS MOKGOKONG I ran to Maluga Street at Gilbert's place. MR RICHARD And what is Gilbert's place? MS MOKGOKONG ; It was a shebeen. MR RICHARD Did you go there alone? MS MOKGOKONG I was together with my child. MR RICHARD And how old was your child at the time? MS MOKGOKONG Do you mean now? MR RICHARD Then. MS MOKGOKONG My child was two years old. MR RICHARD Now what did you want from the shebeen? Did you speak to Gilbert or anyone else? MS MOKGOKONG I wanted to talk to Gilbert. MR RICHARD Did you get to talk to him immediately? MS MOKGOKONG No, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Who did you speak to when you arrived? MS MOKGOKONG It was his grandson. MR RICHARD ; Do you remember the grandson's name? MS MOKGOKONG Lawrence, Chairperson. MR RICHARD ; Now what did you want from either Gilbert or Lawrence? MS MOKGOKONG I wanted Gilbert to help me or to accommodate me or accompany me first to go at my grandparents' home and lock and come back and be accommodated at his place. MR RICHARD And did you communicate that to Lawrence or to Gilbert? MS MOKGOKONG No, Chairperson. MR RICHARD What did you tell either one of them? MS MOKGOKONG I told them that Benjamin is pestering me and insulting me. MR RICHARD And what did they say to you? MS MOKGOKONG He called Gilbert and then when Gilbert arrived he said I should stay somewhere, then he would come back to me. MR RICHARD And for the sake of the record, what job did Benjamin do? MS MOKGOKONG He was a police officer? MR RICHARD Did either Lawrence or Gilbert know that? MS MOKGOKONG They were supposed to know. MR RICHARD How far away from your aunt, the deceased's house, is the shebeen that was run by Gilbert? MS MOKGOKONG It would be a difference of 200 metres. MR RICHARD What happened next, while you were waiting at the Shebeen? MS MOKGOKONG Andrew Chauke came to me. MR RICHARD Now did you know Andrew Chauke? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I did. MR RICHARD For how long had you known him? MS MOKGOKONG Years, because all of us grew around that area. MR RICHARD Did you know whether he was politically active at the time? MS MOKGOKONG I did not know, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Now what did Andrew say to you? MS MOKGOKONG He called me, then I went to him, then he said to me: "Who is at the house?" Then he said: "With whom is he?" Then I told him that he's alone. Then he told me that they were looking for that person for a long time, then he asked me as to why am I there, then I said: "I ran away from him", then he said: "There's no problem, we'll help you." JUDGE DE JAGER Would you go a little bit slower please? MR RICHARD Please repeat that. You said to Mr Chauke that you had left the house. Repeat. MS MOKGOKONG That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was that the first time you had seen Mr Chauke that evening? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR RICHARD ; Now Mr Chauke, did he know the deceased? MS MOKGOKONG That's correct, Chairperson, because we were neighbours. MR RICHARD Now in the statement I have before me, Mr Chauke described the deceased and used certain words about the fact that they were looking for him. Do you remember those words? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct, Chairperson. MR RICHARD What did Mr Chauke say? MS MOKGOKONG He just told me that they were looking for him. MR RICHARD He didn't say something to the effect that they had been looking for that dog for a while? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, he stated that he was looking for that dog. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Actually she used another word too, Mr Interpreter, didn't she? INTERPRETER Yes, fucking dog. MR RICHARD Now when you heard Mr Chauke describe the deceased in those terms, what did you think? MS MOKGOKONG Maybe they had a dispute. Because I was not staying there, I didn't know what happened before. MR RICHARD Now, what happened next? What did Mr Chauke say to you? MS MOKGOKONG We left - He informed me that: "If you can reveal what we're going to do, we're going to necklace you." MR RICHARD Now did he ask you anything about the house where the deceased was? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct, Chairperson. MR RICHARD What did he ask you? MS MOKGOKONG He asked me as to whether - who was in the house - as to whether Benny was alone in the house or not. MR RICHARD And what was your answer? MS MOKGOKONG I told him that it's only Benny who was in the house. MR RICHARD Now, did you and Mr Chauke go back to the house together? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Now for how long had you been away from the house? MS MOKGOKONG Approximately 20 minutes. MR RICHARD Now when you got back to the house, what did you find? Did you find Benjamin alone or were there other people there? MS MOKGOKONG He was alone and then later my grandfather arrived. MR RICHARD And where did your grandfather go to? MS MOKGOKONG He went to the kitchen. MR RICHARD Did you talk to your grandfather? JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry Mr Richard, she said she went with and went back to the - I know we've missed out a period of time, because her grandfather - what happened in the meantime to Andrew? MR RICHARD Thank you Chair. For how long were you and Mr Chauke back in the house? MS MOKGOKONG We did not take a long time. MR RICHARD Now was your grandfather there when you got in with Mr Chauke? JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry. Did Mr Chauke enter the house with you? MS MOKGOKONG He stayed at the door. JUDGE DE JAGER And when you went into the house, what happened? MS MOKGOKONG He went to the gate where he was staying. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now when you went inside the house, was there anyone else inside it? Had your grandfather come back yet or not? MS MOKGOKONG There was no person except Benjamin. I'm not too sure as to whether my grandfather found us in the house or we found him. MR RICHARD Did you talk to your grandfather? MS MOKGOKONG No, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Didn't you tell him that Andrew Chauke and the comrades were on the way back to the house? MS MOKGOKONG I did not tell him, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Then why, when you made the statement to the police, at paragraph 9, did you say that on your arrival you found that your Oupa, that's Solly, "en Johannes en Angelina Boyie" were in the kitchen and then you carry on to say INTERPRETER We don't have an Afrikaans interpretation, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Sorry, I'll continue translating. And you then said to your Oupa that Andrew Chauke and the comrades were on the way to the house. Do you remember that narrative in the statement you gave to the South African Police in 1986? It's a long time ago. MS MOKGOKONG I do remember, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That statement was 1988, wasn't it? MR RICHARD I beg pardon, Chair, it's my error. It's 1988. MS MOKGOKONG I remember Chairperson. MR RICHARD Now would you be able to tell us now who in fact was in the house when you came back and Mr Chauke waited outside? MS MOKGOKONG It is Angelina and her husband and my grandfather. MR RICHARD Did you speak to your grandfather? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I talked to him, but I forgot. MR RICHARD What did you say to him? MS MOKGOKONG I told him that Andrew said he's coming together with the comrades, they are looking for Benjamin. MR RICHARD Now do you have any reason why it wasn't clear when I first asked the question? Very well. MS MOKGOKONG I don't understand. MR RICHARD When I first asked the question, I was not clear of your answer and it didn't appear to be the same as what you've now said. Is there any reason that you can give us as to why...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Could I assist you Mr Richard? When Mr Richard asked you whether you spoke to your Grandfather, you said no, you didn't speak to him and now you told us that you in fact spoke to him. Why didn't you tell us in the first place that you spoke to him? MS MOKGOKONG I'm not changing my statement, because this thing happened a long time ago I forgot. If I stated that I did speak to him, therefore I did. MR RICHARD Thank you. Then where was Andrew while you were talking to your grandfather? Where was Mr Chauke? MS MOKGOKONG He was not present, Chairperson. MR RICHARD And what happened then? MS MOKGOKONG Andrew came and he called me. We were at the verandah and then he instructed me to take the child and go to the bedroom. Then I went to the bedroom. He followed me, then he went to the bedroom and switched off the main switch. MR RICHARD Now I heard you used the word "stoep", was I correct? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I mentioned verandah. MR RICHARD Right. Now did you notice anything in Andrew's - Mr Chauke's hands while he was on the stoep? INTERPRETER May you please repeat the question? MR RICHARD Did you notice anything as to what was in Mr Chauke's hands or in his possession when he was on the stoep with you, on the verandah? MS MOKGOKONG He had an axe with him. MR RICHARD And what did you gather from what you saw? What did you infer? MS MOKGOKONG That is when I started to be scared that they were going to kill him. CHAIRPERSON You say they, was there anyone else with Andrew? MS MOKGOKONG Some of his group were at a distance and then he kept on saying "we", not "I". MR RICHARD Now did Andrew say anything to you while you were standing talking to him on the verandah? Did he ask you any questions? MS MOKGOKONG I only remember that he told me that I should take the child and go to a room. MR RICHARD Were there any other people around the house, besides your grandfather and Angelina and her husband? MS MOKGOKONG No, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Did you expect to find all those people when you arrived back at the house after the trip to the Shebeen? MS MOKGOKONG I did not expect to find them in the house, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Now, just to go over it, when Mr Chauke saw that you had seen him with the axe, what did he say to you? MS MOKGOKONG He did not say anything in regard to the axe he had on his person. MR RICHARD Now, you went into the bedroom. Was the house lit or dark, were the lights on or off? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Which were they? Were they on or were they off? MS MOKGOKONG They were on, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Now at what stage did the lights go off? MS MOKGOKONG After I went inside the bedroom, then in the kitchen there is the main switch. MR RICHARD So do I understand you correctly that while you were in the bedroom the lights went off? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Now the bedroom door, was it open or shut? MS MOKGOKONG It was open. MR RICHARD Did you hear anything? MS MOKGOKONG I heard the stone falling down on the ground. MR RICHARD Did you hear anything else? MS MOKGOKONG No, I did not. MR RICHARD For how long were you in the bedroom before anything else happened? MS MOKGOKONG It can be about 15 minutes. MR RICHARD And then what happened? MS MOKGOKONG And then Andrew switched on the main switch. MR RICHARD Yes, and then? MS MOKGOKONG Then I went out of the bedroom and I found blood on the floor in the dining room. MR RICHARD And did you see the deceased? MS MOKGOKONG No, I did not. MR RICHARD And where was Mr Chauke at that stage? MS MOKGOKONG He was in the dining room. MR RICHARD Was he alone or with others? MS MOKGOKONG He was with the others. MR RICHARD Did you know any of the others? MS MOKGOKONG No, I did not know them. MR RICHARD Now tell me, where was Angelina and her husband and your Grandfather? MS MOKGOKONG They were in the kitchen. MR RICHARD And what happened then? MS MOKGOKONG Andrew asked for a bucket and then he said he wanted to clean the floor. He was helped by Angelina. He also asked for a spade, so as to remove the blood on the street. MR RICHARD Now, when you left your house that evening to go to the shebeen to find Gilbert, earlier that evening, did you have any plans to ask people to come back and do any injury to the deceased? MS MOKGOKONG No I did not have that intention. MR RICHARD Did you know where comrades, Self Defence Unit members, MK members might have been meeting that night? MS MOKGOKONG I did not know. MR RICHARD Now, did you ever go to a place where they were meeting and ask for Mr Chauke? MS MOKGOKONG No, I've never attended such a meeting. MR RICHARD I'm going to rephrase that. I never asked whether you attended such a meeting, I asked whether you ever went to a place where they were meeting and asked for Mr Chauke. MS MOKGOKONG No, I haven't. MR RICHARD Now did you know ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, I'd like to put it to you, Mr Chauke said that they were busy having a meeting at his place which was near or next to, or in the same yard where Mr Gilbert's place is, and that you came there and called him out of a meeting they were holding there, the six of them. Could you remember that, or can't you remember it? MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember that. JUDGE DE JAGER He said that happened on that very same evening. MS MOKGOKONG No, that did not happen. MR RICHARD Did it happen on any other evening? MS MOKGOKONG No. MR RICHARD Now, did you see Mr Chauke when you arrived at Mr Gilbert's shebeen? MS MOKGOKONG I did not see him. MR RICHARD Did you see - did you know why he came to the shebeen? MS MOKGOKONG I did not know. MR RICHARD ; But he came there and spoke to you after some 15 minutes after you arrived? Is that not correct? MS MOKGOKONG He called me while we were on our way, we did not talk for about 15 minutes. MR RICHARD You've misunderstood the question. How long were you at the shebeen before Mr Chauke came to speak to you? MS MOKGOKONG It could have been about 20 minutes. MR RICHARD And I repeat, when you arrived, was Mr Chauke there? MS MOKGOKONG He wasn't there, I did not see him. MR RICHARD And to repeat my other question, do you know why he came to the shebeen? MS MOKGOKONG I don't know why he came to the shebeen. MR RICHARD Very well. Now ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON There is a matter which I, perhaps in the interest of all parties should raise now, this is this other statement that you've not seen. Do you remember you've made a statement tot he police on the 23rd of September 1987? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I do remember. CHAIRPERSON And there you said "On the way to Gilbert's house, I went past Andrew Chauke, also known as Eddie's house. I noticed that he and five other black men were sitting on the stoep of his house. I immediately recognised Andrew Chauke where he was with the other men. I don't know who the other men were. I didn't go to Andrew Chauke and the other men and went directly to Gilbert's home." Do you remember saying that in your statement? MS MOKGOKONG I do remember. When I was asked who I saw and then I said I saw people with Andrew but I did not know them. CHAIRPERSON No, but do you now remember that on the way to Gilbert's, you passed Andrew and some other people sitting on the stoep of his house? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I saw the people on the stoep, but I did not know them. CHAIRPERSON No, but Andrew could equally well have seen you going to Gilbert's, the shebeen, is that not so? MS MOKGOKONG It can happen that he saw me. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR RICHARD Did you talk to Mr Chauke when you passed his front verandah? MS MOKGOKONG I did not talk to them. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now, the next day, did you see either the first applicant, Mr Chauke, or any of the other applicants? MS MOKGOKONG I saw Andrew Chauke. MR RICHARD And what did he say to you? MS MOKGOKONG He said to me they have killed Benjamin and they wanted transport so that they could take him from the toilet and take him to another place far away. MR RICHARD Where did they find Benjamin's body? MS MOKGOKONG His corpse was found by the police in the school toilet. MR RICHARD Was it burned or unburned? MS MOKGOKONG They said it was burned. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now what - did Mr Chauke say anything about what you should say to anyone or not say to anyone? MS MOKGOKONG He said to me I shouldn't tell anybody anything. MR RICHARD Now do you remember that some time later there was a formal inquest into the death and that you gave evidence? MS MOKGOKONG I do not remember. MR RICHARD Do you remember going down to Court and giving evidence about what you knew about the death of the deceased, Benjamin? MS MOKGOKONG ; Yes, I do remember. MR RICHARD Do you remember what you said to the Magistrate on that occasion? MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember well what I said. MR RICHARD Do you remember talking about whether your Grandfather was at the house or not, because according to the record of that hearing there you said something, do you remember? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I do remember. MR RICHARD ; What do you remember telling the Court? Do you remember telling the Court whether your Grandfather was there or not there? MS MOKGOKONG I remember telling the Court that he was there. MR RICHARD That he was there? MS MOKGOKONG Yes. MR RICHARD Isn't it correct that you told the Court that he wasn't there, at that first Inquiry? Because that's what the record says. JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Richard, that's rather leading. I think you should leave it there and the other people might have the opportunity to ask her about that. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now, the next question is, did anyone benefit from the death of the deceased, Benjamin? MS MOKGOKONG His wife got his money. MR RICHARD Did anyone else besides his wife get money? JUDGE DE JAGER What's the relevance hereof, Mr Richard? MR RICHARD Chair there is, I am informed, ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER ...(indistinct - mike not on) think it's relevant. MR RICHARD ... an intimation that there was a conspiracy between the witness and her aunt to cause the death of the deceased by informing on him to the comrades and my final question on this particular approach, before I conclude my examination ... JUDGE DE JAGER ...(indistinct - mike not on) MR RICHARD Thank you. Now I think the last question was, did anyone other than your aunt benefit by the deceased's pension or estate? MS MOKGOKONG I do not know. MR RICHARD Did you? MS MOKGOKONG No, I did not. MR RICHARD Now did you mother or your other aunt? MS MOKGOKONG They did not. MR RICHARD Did you know that night when you went to Gilbert's shebeen to ask for assistance, a place to stay with your young two year old, that if Benjamin died your aunt would benefit, or did you even think about it? MS MOKGOKONG I did not know about that and I did not think about that. MR RICHARD Had it ever been discussed with you? MS MOKGOKONG No. MR RICHARD I believe that's as much as I need to cover. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON I don't know in what order you want to ask further questions now. Would you like to start? MR KOOPEDI I would, Chairperson, although I also would have liked to have a look at the other statement, if it's possible, the one that we did not get. I don't know where that takes us really. CHAIRPERSON Could we take the short adjournment now then and I'll make that statement available to you. MR KOOPEDI I'm indebted Chairperson, thanks. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR KOOPEDI I have also returned the statement to your table, Chairperson. We could not make copies, I just read through it quickly. LINKIE MATLALA MOKGOKONG (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Now, Ms Mokgokong, you've said in your evidence that on this day, after Mr Masinga had come to your house, you then left and went to Gilbert's place. Now what I need to know is, when you arrived at Gilbert's place, who did you find? Who did you first talk to? MS MOKGOKONG I first spoke to Lawrence. MR KOOPEDI Where was Lawrence? Where did you find him? MS MOKGOKONG Inside Gilbert's house. MR KOOPEDI Do you remember whereabout in the house? MS MOKGOKONG In the kitchen because I didn't go further from the kitchen. MR KOOPEDI There is - in one of the statements that you have made to the police, the statement is dated the 27th January 1988 at 17h30, you stated that Gilbert was asleep and he was with another black man. Chairperson this is on page 2 of that statement, the second paragraph. "Gilbert was asleep and was with Lawrence." Do you remember saying anything like that? MS MOKGOKONG I remember that I spoke to Lawrence. MR KOOPEDI No, I'm referring to the police. Do you remember saying that when you were making the statement, the one I've referred you to, do you remember saying that Gilbert and Lawrence were asleep? MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember, Chairperson. JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, sorry. CHAIRPERSON She doesn't say that, does she? MR KOOPEDI Perhaps, Chairperson, that's my poor understanding of Afrikaans and I'll appreciate some interpretation. JUDGE DE JAGER Gilbert was, according to what Lawrence told her, Gilbert was asleep. MR KOOPEDI ; Thank you, Chairperson. I thought that both of them were asleep. Now, you said in your evidence-in-chief here that you wanted them to accommodate you and perhaps to also accompany you to go and lock at the house, is that correct? Did I hear you correct? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct, Chairperson, but I hadn't stated that to them yet at that time. MR KOOPEDI Now did anyone suggest that you sleep at Gilbert's house? MS MOKGOKONG At that time I hadn't yet requested that accommodation. MR KOOPEDI Yes, I understand that you had not done that, but what I'm asking you is, had anyone suggested - did Lawrence for instance, suggest to you that: "Why don't you sleep here"? MS MOKGOKONG No, Chairperson, I don't remember. MR KOOPEDI Well, in one of the statements that you have made, you state that Lawrence suggested that you should sleep there and you refused saying that you could not do that because you wouldn't want to leave Masinga alone in the house, do you remember that? MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember well, but before all these things happened and even before I spoke to Gilbert to request him for that, I left. MR KOOPEDI Now something is not clear in my mind. On this day, while on your way to Gilbert, did you or did you not see Andrew, let alone a group that you saw, but Andrew as a person, did you see him? MS MOKGOKONG I saw a group. MR KOOPEDI You did not see Andrew? MS MOKGOKONG I saw that group but I didn't see him being part of that group? MR KOOPEDI Is there a reason why you would have then told the police that you saw Andrew and you in fact immediately identified him? MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now another area which is a little hazy to me is at that time, did you know that Andrew was politically active or was a so-called comrade? MS MOKGOKONG I did not know, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Are you certain about that? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Well, I'm asking for certainty because in one of your statements, the one we don't have copies of, paragraph 14 thereof Chairperson, the witness states in that statement that she knew very well that Andrew was a comrade. Do you have a comment to that? MS MOKGOKONG Because during those years everybody was regarded as a comrade. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you yourself regard him as a comrade? MS MOKGOKONG No, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI I put it to you that the evidence you have given is not correct in the sense that you in fact went to Andrew's house and told Andrew that Benjamin Masinga is in the house, because you knew that Benjamin Masinga was a policeman and Andrew was a comrade. Is that not correct? MS MOKGOKONG No, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now, let's go back to ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry. While you're on that, in this same document, the affidavit given after the Inquest, you also said after you stated that you knew that Andrew was a comrade, you also stated that you knew that Benjamin Masinga's wife reported him to the comrades and told them that Benjamin harassed her. Did she report him to the comrades? MS MOKGOKONG That was known to the police because they told me that that thing happened, but I did not know. Benjamin informed them that his wife reported him to the comrades, I did not know that. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Now you've also stated in that other statement that Masinga told you that the people in that block wanted to kill him. Do you remember that? Do you remember saying so? CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Now you've also stated in that other statement that Masinga told you that the people in that block wanted to kill him. Do you remember that? Do you remember saying so? MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now here's another thing. You've stated that after leaving Gilbert's house, you went to your house, in the company of Andrew. Is that correct? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now, in paragraph 9 of the statement which is on the table, you state that Andrew parted ways with you. Andrew went to the group of the 5 other people and you went home. Which is the correct version? MS MOKGOKONG We left from Gilbert's place together and when I entered the gate at my house, he went to his house. MR KOOPEDI Did he not come - get into the same yard with you - your house? MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember entering the yard together. MR KOOPEDI Do you not remember seeing him standing at the kitchen door when you were inside the house? MS MOKGOKONG I used the dining room door, that is where he was standing. MR KOOPEDI When was he standing at this door? MS MOKGOKONG Whilst I was in the house when he ...(indistinct). MR KOOPEDI Now when you - did at any stage, that is before getting into the yard, did Andrew order you to close yourself up in the bedroom? MS MOKGOKONG He informed me, whilst I was in the house, when he came to call me. MR KOOPEDI And did you do what he said you should do? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI That is, did you go into your bedroom and close the bedroom door? MS MOKGOKONG I did not close the door, Chairperson, but I entered the bedroom. MR KOOPEDI Now from where you were sitting in the bedroom, could you see what was happening in the dining room? MS MOKGOKONG I was obscured, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Did you see, that is whilst you were in the bedroom, did you see anyone in the dining room? MS MOKGOKONG ; It was dark and then I sat still in the bedroom. MR KOOPEDI So you didn't see anyone? MS MOKGOKONG I was not able to see, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Well, the door leading to the kitchen, from the dining room to the kitchen, is there a door, or was there a door? MS MOKGOKONG There was a door, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Do you remember if the door was open or closed? MS MOKGOKONG That door was open. MR KOOPEDI From where you were sitting in your bedroom, did you see that door? MS MOKGOKONG I was not able to see clearly, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI I'm just not sure whether - I would understand if the visibility was poor, it would not be clear to see, what I want to know is from where you were sitting, could you not, or could you see the door? MS MOKGOKONG I was not able to see that door. MR KOOPEDI Now the main switch in the house, where is this main switch situated? MS MOKGOKONG Inside the kitchen. MR KOOPEDI Now how do you know that Andrew went through that door into the kitchen and switched off the main switch? MS MOKGOKONG I saw him because that is the only door that was open, from the dining room to the kitchen. The kitchen door was closed, so he entered through the dining room door. MR KOOPEDI So what you're actually saying is you could actually see from your bedroom, through the door that was open, is that what you're saying? MS MOKGOKONG From the bedroom, you'd be able to see the person clearly in the kitchen. MR KOOPEDI After the main switch was switched off and you heard what you heard, you said that - who switched on the main switch? MS MOKGOKONG It was Andrew. MR KOOPEDI So did you see him go and switch it on again? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI In paragraph 10 of the statement, the one we don't have copies of, you state that you had obeyed what Andrew said, you went into your bedroom. Well, let me rephrase. You say in your statement that you unlocked the front door as Andrew had instructed you and you went into your bedroom to sit. In paragraph 10 you say after about 5 minutes the front door opened and you saw the light in the sitting room go off. Now, do you remember saying this? MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember Chairperson because the dining room door was open all the time. MR KOOPEDI I don't understand. So the dining room door did not open while you were in the bedroom, or inside the house? MS MOKGOKONG It was open all the time. JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry to interrupt. Paragraph 9 she stated "I've done what he told me to do and the front door of the house was left unlocked." She didn't unlock it, it was left unlocked because it was unlocked before. That's a small difference. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, I'm indebted. My question was, this door, when you were in the bedroom, was this door open or closed? ADV SIGODI Which door, Mr Koopedi? MS MOKGOKONG That door was open all the time. MR KOOPEDI I was referring to the dining room door, the one leading into the house from outside. ADV SIGODI Okay. MS MOKGOKONG That door was opened. MR KOOPEDI I believe on that statement, you say that you heard this door open and you could clearly hear this door open in that it hit against the wall. Do you remember anything like that? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct, Chairperson. At the time when the stone fell on the ground, because that stone hit the wall. MR KOOPEDI No, that was before you could hear any other thing, before stones could fall, you did not hear the door open and hit against the wall? MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, could I ask you something now? You've talked about a dining room door. Is that a door that opens to the outside of the house? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is there also a front door? MS MOKGOKONG The front door refers to the dining room door. CHAIRPERSON Is it next to the dining room door? Is it a separate door? Same door. MR KOOPEDI Same door. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. Whilst you were in the bedroom you heard something, what exactly did you hear, other than the stone? MS MOKGOKONG I heard some sounds which showed that a person is assaulted. MR KOOPEDI And did you also hear a sound like a person is being pulled on the floor out of the house? MS MOKGOKONG I was afraid at that time and therefore I lost my concentration. MR KOOPEDI Is there any reason why in that statement you told the police that you heard, that is after something fell, you heard a sound as if a person is being pulled out of the house? That is in paragraph 10, Chairperson. MS MOKGOKONG I could have said that, maybe I forgot, because this thing happened a long time ago. MR KOOPEDI ; Is there anything that you clearly remember about this matter? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, there are other issues which I remember clearly. MR KOOPEDI I'm asking this, you know, with no disrespect, I get confused by the many contradictions I see in the statements and your testimony. Perhaps just to wrap up, did you have any arrangement with Andrew that he will come and tell you what to do or to close the door after they had completed their mission? MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember that, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI I didn't get that answer. MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember that, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Well, in paragraph 11 of that statement on the table, you state that you waited for Andrew to come and tell you to close the front door and no-one came. You then went out, you switched on the light in the dining room and Benjamin was not there where he was sitting on the table, but the door was open. Do you remember any of this? MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Well I will, for finality, then put it to you that there is a lot you do not remember and my instructions are in fact that you are deliberately misleading this Honourable Committee. What's your response to that? MS MOKGOKONG I'm not misleading them, but what I don't remember, I don't remember and what I remember, I remember. MR KOOPEDI I also put it to you that you in fact knew that Andrew Chauke was a so-called comrade at that stage, a member of the SRC and a very active political person in the area. MS MOKGOKONG I did not know because I've already stated that at that time I was not staying there, I only came there at that particular time. MR KOOPEDI Where were you staying? MS MOKGOKONG I was staying in Soshanguve. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, I don't want to pursue this. No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Before we embark on any further questions, I have a proposal to make to the gentlemen here, I'm afraid it's not as helpful to the ladies. It seems to me that we're enjoying a summer's day in Pretoria and if you wish to take you jackets off, please feel free to do so. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Any questions? MR NYAWUZA Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'm only going to ask a few questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA Ma'am you've stated before this Committee that you'd been away, it's only during this week that you were around. Can you tell us, for how long had you been away from this area? MS MOKGOKONG It was a couple of years that I left at the area because I was staying with my mother and at that area I was visiting my grandmother. MR NYAWUZA So you'd been away for years from this place, is that so? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct. MR NYAWUZA To take the question further, Ma'am, you might not have know that Andy, as you referred to him in Court, was a comrade, is that so? MS MOKGOKONG I did not know. MR NYAWUZA And you can't deny that during your absence he might have been a comrade, is that so? MS MOKGOKONG That is possible. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am, during this week of the event that led to the killing of this chap, for how long had you been here at that place, days, let's say two or three, or two weeks or so? MS MOKGOKONG It was days. MR NYAWUZA How many, if you were to approximate? MS MOKGOKONG It can be three days before the incident. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am there's been mention before this Committee that the deceased was referred to as Rambo. Do you perhaps know of such a name or is it because, if you don't, is it because of your absence? MS MOKGOKONG I don't know that name. MR NYAWUZA You don't know the Rambo name. MS MOKGOKONG I know another Rambo in Mamelodi. MR NYAWUZA The Rambo that you know in Mamelodi Ma'am, who was he? Was he a police officer, or he was a clerk, or he was a Councillor, or he was an attorney, or he was a doctor? What was he? MS MOKGOKONG No, I just heard that there was a person called Rambo who was shooting people, but I didn't know his career or his job. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am, what kind of people was he shooting? Was he shooting ordinary people, or people who were in the political struggle at that time? Perhaps might you have known of that? MS MOKGOKONG He would just shoot even his neighbour, if you enter, he will just shoot you. JUDGE DE JAGER You don't know whether this could have been Benjamin Masinga? MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember him staying in Mamelodi. JUDGE DE JAGER Oh, so that referred to a person in Mamelodi and not a person staying, where was this house of your Grandfather? Atteridgeville, or where? MS MOKGOKONG Well, I don't know his family, I only know Pelindaba. JUDGE DE JAGER No, but this house where the incident happened, in which township was that? MS MOKGOKONG That is Pelindaba. JUDGE DE JAGER Pelindaba. MS MOKGOKONG That's correct, Chairperson. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am do you still maintain that Andrew Chauke approached you and you did not approach him? Do you still maintain that? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, he's the person who called me. MR NYAWUZA And Ma'am, towards the completion of your testimony in chief you stated that Andrew came back and requested a bucket to clean the blood, do you still maintain that after the chaos that was in the dining room and some silence thereafter, Andrew did come back to the house? Do you still maintain that? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, he came back. CHAIRPERSON While you're on that, am I correct, is that when you said Angelina helped him to clean up when he came back? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, she was with him in the dining room and she had a cloth in her hand, helping him. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am to take the evidence further, who is Angelina and who is Johannes? How are they related to you? MS MOKGOKONG They were husband and wife and they were renting a room at the back in that yard. MR NYAWUZA What was Johannes's career? What was he, was he a police officer or was he a doctor, or attorney? MS MOKGOKONG Well, I don't know. MR NYAWUZA Then as regards your relationship with your grandparents, you stated that you were the related to the deceased's wife through your mother. Where was your mother resident? MS MOKGOKONG At Soshanguve. MR NYAWUZA Can you perhaps advise us to - was she married? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, she was married. MR NYAWUZA And then what was her husband's career? MS MOKGOKONG He was a truck driver. MR NYAWUZA Then, there's been evidence before this Committee that there's a certain Mr Mashishi who was staying at his house, who was a police officer. Can you put us in the know how as regards that? Do you perhaps know this Mr Mashishi? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I know him. MR NYAWUZA How do you know him? Who was he? MS MOKGOKONG He was also married to my other aunt. MR NYAWUZA Married, in the same house that the whole incident happened? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am I understand they had at some stage been away from the premises, but during this same week, would you perhaps know as to whether Mr Mashishi was still resident there? MS MOKGOKONG They had their own house at U Section. MR NYAWUZA Further Ma'am, not trying to be unfair on your part, for how long had they been staying at the U's, a week, two weeks, a month, a year? MS MOKGOKONG It could have been about three years. MR NYAWUZA So in essence these people had been away for quite some time, is that so? MS MOKGOKONG Yes. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am as regards the corpse and Andrew coming to you regarding transport, telling that they wanted transport to take the corpse away, how did it happen that the corpse was found by the police officers, or whoever found it? How did it happen? Do you perhaps know? MS MOKGOKONG I don't know. MR NYAWUZA How far is this school from yourself? Do you perhaps share the same fence or it may be at the stage there? How far is it from you, the school? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, it can be the same distance that you refer to, that is from here to that wall at the back. MR NYAWUZA Which wall at the back? Behind Andrew and company, or at the stage? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, at that place where they are sitting, just a few, few metres behind that wall was the school fence. MR NYAWUZA And Ma'am ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON There is a photograph available showing the scene. MR NYAWUZA Thanks for that, Mr Chair, I won't be taking it ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON It would appear to be considerably further than the witness has just said. MR NYAWUZA I wouldn't be taking that very much further. Ma'am you've stated before this Committee that the deceased was troubling you. In actual fact he wanted to go to bed with you. In your assessment of what ultimately transpired, would you have said it was more harsher than you expected, the dealing with him - as regards the dealing with him? MS MOKGOKONG I think it was a very cruel thing that happened, I didn't expect that. MR NYAWUZA The help that you sought from Gilbert and/or Lawrence would have been that you either put up at their place, or you referred to locking the house, were you going to lock the deceased in the house and put up at Gilbert's place, or what did you have in mind as regards locking the house? MS MOKGOKONG I would lock him inside the house and had I done this, this wouldn't have happened. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am, you have been at this place for a few days, as you've stated. During the few days that you were at this place, you know in this area, not necessarily confined to the address at which the whole thing happened, were there any attacks on police officers in that area that you know of? If you don't know you say, you know: "I don't know of any attacks on police officers" or "yes, I do know. A, B, C happened." MS MOKGOKONG I don't know. MR NYAWUZA No further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA MS COLERIDGE Thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE Can you tell me whether Gilbert and Lawrence, were they aware of the fact that ...(intervention) INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not activated. MS COLERIDGE Thank you. Sorry about that. Did Gilbert and Lawrence know that Benjamin was a police officer? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I think they knew because they were not staying far from that place where we were living. MS COLERIDGE And did you think that Andrew knew that Benjamin was a police officer? MS MOKGOKONG He should have known because he would see him when he was going to work. MS COLERIDGE Was that when Benjamin was living there previously? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, that's correct. MS COLERIDGE ; But was Andrew living there when Benjamin was living there? MS MOKGOKONG That's correct. MS COLERIDGE How do you know that? MS MOKGOKONG When I was coming to visit that place, I would always see Andrew. MS COLERIDGE At which stage did Andrew inform you that you shouldn't tell anything about the incident and that he would necklace you? At which stage was that? Was it after the incident? MS MOKGOKONG He told me before the incident. MS COLERIDGE And did he tell you what he was going to do to the deceased before the incident? MS MOKGOKONG He did not tell me. MS COLERIDGE Did you ask him anything? Did you ask him: "What are you guys going to do?" etc. MS MOKGOKONG I did not ask him. MS COLERIDGE Why didn't you ask him? MS MOKGOKONG I didn't think about that and I was confused because he wanted him for something that is known to him. MS COLERIDGE And did Andrew tell you that he was looking for Benjamin for a long time? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, he told me that. MS COLERIDGE And did he tell you why he was looking for him? MS MOKGOKONG No, he did not. MS COLERIDGE And then I just want to refer the Committee to the statement made by Ms Mokgokong on 27th January 88 that, at paragraph 7 on page 2, you stated that Andrew asked you whether Benjamin had his weapon with him, his firearm or weapon, whether he had any weapons on him and so forth, can you remember that? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I do remember. MS COLERIDGE And what did you tell him? MS MOKGOKONG I said he had his own weapon. I said he had his weapon. MS COLERIDGE Because in the statement you say you don't believe that he had his weapon, now which version is correct now? Shall I repeat the question? MS MOKGOKONG Please Ma'am. MS COLERIDGE You stated now that you told Andrew, just when I asked you the question, that he had his weapon with him, but in the statement that you made to the police in 1988, you said to Andrew that you didn't believe that he had his weapon, so can you see the contradiction in that? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I do recognise that. MS COLERIDGE So what is the position? Did he - what did you tell Andrew? That he had his weapon, that you believed he had his weapon, or he didn't have his weapon? MS MOKGOKONG What I told Andrew is that I thought he did not have his weapon with him and what is written there is what I told the police. What I'm saying now, is because I've forgotten some aspects of my testimony to the police. MS COLERIDGE ; Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE CHAIRPERSON Can we now - I'm afraid I should have done it earlier, call this statement that you have just referred to as Exhibit E, the other statement made on the 7th of July 1988 as Exhibit F and then we have the statement that has not been copied, if we're going to keep that, we'll call it G. Right. Re-examination? MR RICHARD No further questions. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD ADV SIGODI On page 95 of the bundle we have a plea which was tendered in the Magistrate's Court and in the plea there is evidence, there was evidence of Andrew Chauke. In his evidence he stated, I mean in the plea he stated that you came to him and told him that there is a police official in your house and that he must come and kill this policeman. Do you know that? MS MOKGOKONG I don't know that. ADV SIGODI And thereafter you left and then you went to his shebeen and then a few minutes, about 10 minutes later he followed you to the shebeen. Do you know that? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I know about that. ADV SIGODI Did he follow you to the shebeen? MS MOKGOKONG He found me at the shebeen. ADV SIGODI Alright. Because further on he says he called you and then you came and then you told them that there were no people, now did you tell Andrew that there were no people in the house, whilst you were at the shebeen? MS MOKGOKONG I told him on our way to the house. ADV SIGODI So was he asking you about the situation in the house as to how many people were there in the house, did he ask you about that? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, he did. ADV SIGODI Why do you think he wanted to know how many people there were in the house? MS MOKGOKONG I didn't think about that then. ADV SIGODI But what led to the conversation, to him asking you how many people are there in the house? What led to that? MS MOKGOKONG I don't know why he asked me that. ADV SIGODI Did you ask him to help you? MS MOKGOKONG No, I did not. ADV SIGODI Did you tell him that there was a policeman in the house? MS MOKGOKONG I did not tell him. ADV SIGODI Are you saying that you did not say to him that there was Benjamin Masinga in the house? MS MOKGOKONG I told him that Benny is at the house, but I did not mention anything concerning the policeman, but I think because he knew Benjamin was a policeman. ADV SIGODI Did you tell him that Benjamin was troubling you? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I did. ADV SIGODI What did he say to you? MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember well what his answer was. ADV SIGODI Did he offer to help you? MS MOKGOKONG He said to me he has been looking for him and he also told me that I shouldn't be worried because he'll help me. ADV SIGODI So what did you understand him to be saying when he said he was going to help you? MS MOKGOKONG I didn't understand anything about that. ADV SIGODI So when you went back with him, you left Gilbert and Lawrence at the shebeen, you went back to the house with him with the hope that he's the one that was going to help you, is that so? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I trusted that he will help me. ADV SIGODI So he asked you how many people there are in the house? MS MOKGOKONG That's correct. ADV SIGODI And you told him that there were no people in the house? MS MOKGOKONG Yes. ADV SIGODI Did he, did you then say to him that you are going to go into the house and then you are going to switch off the lights? MS MOKGOKONG I didn't say that. ADV SIGODI Because that is what he is saying in his plea explanation. Because he is saying that you said you are going to go in and switch off the light because the police official was in the sitting room and he was sitting on a chair and he was sleeping. MS MOKGOKONG I did not say that to him. ADV SIGODI But did you tell him that Benjamin Masinga was sitting on the chair? MS MOKGOKONG I might have told him that, but I don't remember well. ADV SIGODI Where else would he have had the information from? MS MOKGOKONG From Andrew's gate, you are able to see through the dining room at this house. ADV SIGODI But it was late at night, was it not when this whole thing took place? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, it was at night, but when the house is lit you are able to see through. ADV SIGODI Because it goes on further and says, I mean in this plea, it goes on to say that you told him that he was sleeping. MS MOKGOKONG That is correct. ADV SIGODI You told him that? You gave him that information? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, I did. ADV SIGODI Why did you give him this information that he was sleeping, that he was sitting on a chair, there were no people in the house? What did you expect him to do? MS MOKGOKONG I wasn't expecting anything from him. ADV SIGODI And then he goes on further to say that you switched off the light and then you went to call them. MS MOKGOKONG That is not correct. ADV SIGODI Alright, I'll leave that aspect. Now what I want to find out, during the time that you were staying at your grandparents' house, those few days when you were there, did Benjamin Masinga come home on any of those days? MS MOKGOKONG ...(indistinct) number one, he did come. ADV SIGODI He did come. Did he sleep over at your grandparents place during those days when you were there, during that short time? MS MOKGOKONG I don't remember well, but if he wanted to sleep over, he would. ADV SIGODI As far as you know, was the relationship between him and his wife on an on and off basis or how often would he come home? Let me ask you like that. MS MOKGOKONG He would take time before coming. Sometimes he will come during the day and go back. ADV SIGODI And other times? Would there be a period of say a day between his coming or would it be a month, or would it be a week or so, do you know? INTERPRETER Chairperson, it seems as if we have a problem with the earphones. ADV SIGODI Have you heard the question? Okay. Alright. Now I'm asking what would the interval be between his coming in and his going away? Would it be a day, would be two days, would it be three days or so? MS MOKGOKONG While I was there sometimes he'll come twice a day for instance, sometimes he would not come for a day and I didn't understand his way of life, actually. CHAIRPERSON Can I interrupt at this stage? You have just told us, as I understand your evidence, that you don't remember if he slept over, but if he wanted to he would. Do you remember? MS MOKGOKONG Yes. CHAIRPERSON Was there a bedroom there available for him? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Nobody else using it? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct. ADV SIGODI Okay, the last aspect. Now the last aspect that I want to clarify with you is when Mr Chauke came back after the incident on that same night, when he asked for a spade to cover the blood, was he with the other applicants here, or was he alone? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, he came with the others. ADV SIGODI How many of them were here? MS MOKGOKONG Well, I did not recognise their number. ADV SIGODI But did you know if it's the same people who were with him? MS MOKGOKONG Well, I did not take recognisance of that. ADV SIGODI Did they say anything when they came back when they were asking for water? What did they say to you? MS MOKGOKONG The others did not talk to me, I only talked to Andrew. ADV SIGODI What did he say? MS MOKGOKONG He asked for a bucket and a spade and he went to the street. ADV SIGODI And what else? Did he tell you what he had done? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, he did. ADV SIGODI What did he say he had done? MS MOKGOKONG He said to me: "We have killed him." ADV SIGODI And the following day when he came to ask for transport, why did he come to you to ask for transport, or to your home to ask for transport, do you know? MS MOKGOKONG He wasn't asking me, he was just telling me that they are still looking for transport. ADV SIGODI Okay. Thanks Chairperson. JUDGE DE JAGER There's one aspect perhaps I should ask you about. I could imagine the lights shining, you sitting in your bedroom, you saw Andrew going into the kitchen and switching off the lights, is that correct? MS MOKGOKONG That is correct. JUDGE DE JAGER But where was your grandfather at that stage? Was he sitting in the kitchen? MS MOKGOKONG He was in the kitchen. JUDGE DE JAGER Where were Angelina and Johannes? MS MOKGOKONG They were in their room that they were renting, I don't remember them being in the kitchen at that time. JUDGE DE JAGER Didn't your grandfather ask him: "But why are you switching off the lights now?" MS MOKGOKONG No, he did not. JUDGE DE JAGER And then you had darkness in the house. How could you then see that Andrew was the one switching on the lights again? MS MOKGOKONG After he had switched on the main switch, I could see, it was lit so I could see him. JUDGE DE JAGER So you saw him coming out of the kitchen again? MS MOKGOKONG Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. ADV SIGODI Sorry, one other aspect. You say that Andrew knew Ben Masinga, is that what you said? MS MOKGOKONG Yes, he could have known him. ADV SIGODI Are you saying he could have known him, or are you saying you know that he knew him? MS MOKGOKONG Because he would see him everyday it could have happened that he knew him. CHAIRPERSON How did it come about that Angelina came out of the room that she was in with her husband, to come and help clean up? You've just told us when the lights were switched off, Angelina and her husband were in the room they rented. What made her - how did she come to come out with a dishcloth and start helping clean up? MS MOKGOKONG I don't know, I just saw her. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR RICHARD Nothing further. CHAIRPERSON Right thank you. Thank the witness for having come forward to give evidence and assist us and we thank you for your assistance to. MR RICHARD ... be excused just at this juncture? CHAIRPERSON Certainly. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is there any further evidence that has to be led, or shall we get onto addresses now? MS COLERIDGE No other evidence to be led, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI No evidence from our side, thanks Chairperson. MR RICHARD Thank you I have no address. NO ARGUMENT BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON You have of course addressed us one. If there is anything further you wish to say, please do so. MR KOOPEDI Very briefly Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT My submission will simply be that I would request the Honourable Committee to reject the evidence of this witness. It is my submission that the evidence of this witness is contradictory to the extreme. It may well be that this is a matter that happened a long time ago. I submit that the contradictions are just too stark to be ...(indistinct) by the fact that this happened a long time ago. Chairperson, this witness started by contradicting her statement which we have marked E, denying that she ever spoke to the grandmother. It took Mr Richard to read the statement for her to start remembering and connecting things. It is my submission Chairperson that this was not a truthful evidence. Chairperson, I also see no reason why this witness could have told the police that she knew Andrew to be a comrade and she told the police this many years ago, but today she says that she did not know this fact. My submission is that this is not the truth also, Chairperson. It's my submission that this witness is attempting to cleanse herself, if one can so say, from having called the people who then killed Mr Masinga. My submission is further that it would be dangerous to even consider accepting parts of her statement. I submit that her evidence should be rejected in total. I also submit that her evidence in terms of the application by the applicants before, her evidence does not really suggest that there was any personal gain on their part, it also does not suggest that there was no political motive. Her evidence only suggests that there might not have been full disclosure on the part of only one of the applicants, who is Andrew, but I submit that the evidence she has given to support the theory that there might not have been full disclosure, the evidence is false. Chairperson, it's my submission that it is not normal, one could say, it would be crazy for anyone and particularly an activist at that time, to have returned to this house after they had assaulted this man, had him bleeding, dragged him away, burned him, then returned to the scene. I see no sense in that and it's my submission that that could not have happened. It's also my submission that it will be crazy again for Andrew or any of the applicants to have gone back to this witness and told her that: "You know we killed Masinga." It is my submission that this could not have happened. JUDGE DE JAGER But if she knew about it and, on their version, sort of invited them to come and kill the man or attack the man, why shouldn't they go back and clean the place so that she wouldn't be under suspicion? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, the allegation or perhaps the evidence of this witness is that after having dragged this man outside, you were given, you were told that the reason why this person would be taken to this public place was for people to know and see that a policeman has been cornered and killed, but the point I'm making now is I do not think that any normal person would have, after accomplishing this mission, after everything has been accomplished, go back, put himself at risk and say that, you know, we killed this person, in the first place, I submit it wouldn't be normal. I also submit you would not go back and say: "I want to clean here" because you do not want to be found at this place. CHAIRPERSON But you don't want the whole thing to be tied up to you, do you? You don't want the police to arrive, as they did, following blood stains, trails and immediately start questioning the girl who brought you to the house in the first place, who will immediately name you, that's what you're trying to avoid, aren't you? MR KOOPEDI Well perhaps that may have been the case, but one is making the submission, not in isolation. I am grouping together the fact that he would have told her that they killed him. He would go back to clean, he would go back to ask for transport. This is a compilation of facts Chairperson, which makes me come to the conclusion that it would not have made sense for any person to have gone there and put himself in that position. But be that as it may, Chairperson, my submission is that her evidence in totality, perhaps only deals with one aspect of the requirements of amnesty and also on one of the applicants. ADV SIGODI What about the statement which was made by Reginald Similane on page 52, where he stated that they went back to the same house and took the mat next to the door and threw it away. Then another woman gave Andrew water to wash the blood. This statement was made on the 29th of January 1988. What do you say about that corroborating here version that the applicants did in fact go back to the house to clean the blood ...(indistinct - mike not on) they deny? MR KOOPEDI I would say that when these accused persons made the statement, this has been after there have been arrests. This is after people have been interrogated and listened to what the police have to say. I am not sure whether this statement was done before or after the Inquest, but my submission is that when this statement was done, all the accused persons or all the people who had been arrested by then, were in the hands of the police who would have told them all sorts of things. I heard one of the applicants, I cannot remember which one of the applicants, during his testimony, a statement similar to that, I can't remember on what aspect he was asked as to why would he say so, you know, why would he say yes, it referred to Clement Mudau. Why would he put Clement on the scene? How did he know that Andrew had done that? The answer was a very clear answer which said: "The police told us that. The police told us that Andrew is going to say that", or "Andrew is saying that", so my submission is whatever might be in the statement, came after people had been arrested, came after Andrew had been arrested and the police interrogated him. MR NYAWUZA Thank you Mr Chairman. My address will be as brief as possible. MR NYAWUZA IN ARGUMENT My point of departure is on the name Rambo. Linkie is a very close relative of the deceased. He is married in the family. She doesn't know the name Rambo. The Rambo that she knows is somebody who stays in Mamelodi and from her testimony, the Rambo that she knows didn't choose who he killed. This might as well tell us that during that period, comrades did not necessarily deal with police officers, they also dealt with the outcasts, you know, people who were terrorising the community. Are we here saying - has there been evidence that Andrew, because Andrew says he's the one who spoke to Linkie, the other applicants never at any stage spoke to Linkie and that's the testimony here, the question that comes to mind is: Did Andrew distort the fact when he spoke to his co-applicants? Did he tell them that: "The Rambo that we're going to kill is the notorious Rambo of Mamelodi, or he said: "We are going to kill a police officer"? The other factor is, a lot has been denied by the applicants. They denied having gone back to the house to clean their mess. They also deny that Andrew approached Linkie. They're saying that Linkie approached Andrew and the testimony before us today is that they approached him, so what we're going to state here is that, be that as it may, the motive for killing this chap might not have been that he's a police officer. On the part of the other applicants it might have been so. They might have been told that they're dealing with somebody else, but Andrew denies knowing the deceased, whereas testimony before us today tells us that Andrew grew up in that area, he should have known him very well. He denies knowing him, he even goes further to state that when they went into this house, when I asked him as to whether the right Rambo was killed, he said: "We went into that house knowing that we're going to kill Rambo", whom, he says, he didn't know at that time. How possible is it that you stay opposite to a person and during those times police officers were picked up by vans when they went on their shifts. I know so because I stayed with a police officer. They were picked up by vans from their residences and taken to work. He should have known that person. He's been a resident at that place, so my submission is that there hasn't been full disclosure. There are some facts that are being trampled on. There are some facts that did not come out clearly, that the applicant should have stated. What those facts are, I don't know, but the holes in their testimony tells me there's something missing, so my submission is that the application by the applicants be dismissed. Thank you. MS COLERIDGE IN ARGUMENT Chairperson, I concur with my learned colleague, Mr Nyawuza in relation to Mr Andrew Chauke, because he was the Commander of that group and he was the only person on the evidence, that actually had contact with Linkie in the instance, Chairperson. The problem with Andrew Chauke's evidence is that he failed to take the Commission into his confidence which is - the facts aren't that material in a sense at the end of the day. He actually failed to just take us into his confidence and give us the full picture and the full story. His evidence is too full of blank spaces, Chairperson. It's just, someone approaches him, he goes into the meeting, says: "Look, we've got our target, the policeman" and an hour later they have their weapons and they go into the house. It just seems that to arrange an operation like this, there had to be some form of planning and it seems clear, Chairperson, that yes, Mr Andrew Chauke did go to that house, he did speak to Linkie, he knew exactly who was not in the house, he knew that the deceased probably didn't have his weapon with him that evening, and he failed to let us know about these small, simple details. And therefore, Chairperson, I concur with my Learned Colleague in relation to Mr Chauke's evidence, that he does not make full disclosure in the instance, Chairperson. And there's just one other aspect which is regarding Reginald, which Adv Sigodi had pointed out, that there was evidence that they went back to the house and Andrew also failed to inform us of that and Reginald in his statement also states that they actually did go back to the house, Chairperson, so we ask ourselves whether Reginald is also not disclosing all the facts, which is also material in terms of full disclosure. And then there's just the other element of Clement. Ms Linkie couldn't assist us very much, but I remember her saying and in her statement that Andrew did actually have an axe when she saw him at the door and then the others had other weapons. The fact that Reginald stated that Clement hit the deceased with the axe, in his statement, as well as Andrew Chauke in the Inquest Statement, that Clement also hit the deceased with the axe and there are the two conflicting stories and then at the Commission here they're saying that's not the case, Andrew was the one that hit him with the axe so in terms of that as well, there's still some discrepancy, Chairperson. And therefore, just whether Reginald also is probably siding with Mr Andrew Chauke and also changing his evidence in a sense, Chairperson., we also have to take that into account. And those are my submissions. Thank you Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, may I reply? CHAIRPERSON Do you wish to reply? MR KOOPEDI IN REPLY A very brief reply, Chairperson. Chairperson, with regards to what perhaps my learned friend, the Evidence Leaders, has just said, by saying that the applicant Andrew Chauke has not taken the Committee into his confidence, I submit that this inference is drawn from the testimony of the last witness and if that is the case my submission is that the inference is wrong. I believe that there are other people whom the Evidence Analyst would have called, who would perhaps strengthen that story, people such as the Gilberts, the Lawrences, the Angelina and the Johanneses. It is therefore my submission that because such people were not called and this witness was very contradictory, it is not correct to make such an inference. With regard to what my learned friend Mr Nyawuza has said in terms of this Rambo question, he started off by saying that Linkie was a close relative of Masinga. I submit that cannot be correct. Linkie is a daughter of the sister to Masinga's wife. Linkie also did not stay in this house, she stayed at Soshanguve Chairperson. My understanding of her testimony is also that she was not always in the company of Masinga and would therefore not be a person who can be qualified as one who would know whether Masinga was called Rambo or not. She says in her evidence that Masinga could have slept at this house on that day if he wanted to because he had a bedroom. She does not seem to know that at that stage Masinga had about three months separation from his wife, in fact he wasn't staying in this house and the only reason why he told his brother he would be at this house, would be to collect his things. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That concludes this hearing. MS COLERIDGE Thank you Chairperson. All rise. HEARING ADJOURNS