amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-03-27 PINETOWN 1 JOEL MACORD MAKHANYA AM6627/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54103&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200327pi.htm MS MTANGA The next matter would be Joel Macord Makhanya, that's reference number 6627/97. CHAIRPERSON Who is appearing for the applicant? Mr Khweza. Are we ready to proceed with that one? MR KHWEZA Could you kindly put on record what we've done, what the Amnesty Committee has done as regards the notices to victims and implicated persons? MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson. The victim concerned in this matter is a policeman. In the application the name was not given by the applicant because he was unaware of the details and in our investigations we discovered that the name of the policeman involved was Fanie Groenewald. We also further discovered that this Fanie Groenewald had since left the Police Services in KwaZulu Natal and he left and he is apparently somewhere in Gauteng. An advertisement was put up in the paper on the 7th March. I've got it here, a copy of the tear off sheet of the advertisement where he was advised about the hearing and notified about the date of the hearing but we have not heard from him. Further to that we also asked the witness protection unit in our office, the head Mr Mike Barnado to assist us trace him through Police Services and that also has not come up with anything so Mr Fanie Groenewald has not contacted us at all. CHAIRPERSON That's strange because usually an ex-policeman would receive some sort of pension or whatever and he should be on record because if he left the police he will still be liable to be called up as a reservist but it seems as though you've done everything in your power to try and trace him and we've had no response? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson because the first stage of the tracing started at the police station and our contact person there was Inspector Shange who had given us all the details about Mr Fanie Groenewald and from there they were unable to assist us about the address where - his first address in Gauteng, they were unable to assist us on that. ADV BOSMAN May I just ask which newspaper the advertisement was placed in? MS MTANGA ...(inaudible) Star. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes he might have been a reader of the Beeld rather than the Star but - right are you ready to call the applicant? MR KHWEZA The applicant is here, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, he would give evidence in which language? MR KHWEZA He prefers Zulu, Chairperson. JOEL MACORD MAKHANYA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR KHWEZA ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. MR MAKHANYA I remember that it was in July 1991 although I do not recall the exact date. I was at my home in Umkomaas when I was telephoned by a comrade by the name of Bobbie Matabata. He was in Port Shepstone in Gamalaki. He requested that I should go collect them, he was in the company of two other persons. I proceeded to Gamalaki. CHAIRPERSON Just a moment, can you assist us here? You said you've been phoned by a comrade. Who was this comrade? MR MAKHANYA Bobbie Matabata. CHAIRPERSON And you referred him as a comrade. Did you belong to any political party? MR MAKHANYA Yes it was the African National Congress. CHAIRPERSON And he, was he also a member of the African National Congress? MR MAKHANYA He was also in the ANC as well as a member of uMkhonto weSizwe. CHAIRPERSON Where did you meet each other, how did you know each other? MR MAKHANYA I knew him because the guerrillas from the Umgababa area were based at my home. CHAIRPERSON Right, thank you. MR KHWEZA And you say the said Bobbie phoned you and what did he tell you? MR MAKHANYA He requested me to collect them from a certain house in Gamalaki but I do not recall the exact house but it was somewhere in Gamalaki. I collected them and on our way back we were stopped by the Police. MR KHWEZA You say Bobbie was with two other people. Do you know who were they? MR MAKHANYA It was Sonny and Dumakaba. MR KHWEZA Apart from telling you to fetch them did they say anything? MR MAKHANYA No they did not tell me any other thing. MR KHWEZA Proceed? MR MAKHANYA On the way back I was stopped by a policeman. I stopped and ...(intervention) MR KHWEZA Before we come to that did Bobbie and the other two gentlemen have anything in their possession? MR MAKHANYA They had bags. MR KHWEZA How many bags? MR MAKHANYA There were two. MR KHWEZA Then proceed? CHAIRPERSON Do you know what was in the bags? MR MAKHANYA Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON Did you know at the time when you picked them up what they carried in the bags? MR MAKHANYA Yes I did. CHAIRPERSON What was in the bags? MR MAKHANYA There were firearms, AK47s as well as handgrenades. MR KHWEZA Do you know what they were going to do with the bags? MR MAKHANYA As freedom fighters I knew that they would do whatever they were ordered to do with those firearms. MR KHWEZA Did you know where they got these bags from? MR MAKHANYA No I did not know because they would get these bags from time to time, maybe they had been given by some commander. MR KHWEZA And did you know where they were coming from, these bags? MR MAKHANYA They were from Gamalaki. MR KHWEZA To do what there? MR MAKHANYA They must have been involved in some activity that they were doing as guerrillas. MR KHWEZA Then proceed when the policeman asked you to stop, what did happen? MR MAKHANYA The policeman stopped me and requested to search the vehicle. He asked me to open the boot which I did. MR KHWEZA Who was driving this vehicle? MR MAKHANYA I was the driver. MR KHWEZA Who was the owner of the vehicle in question? MR MAKHANYA It was mine. MR KHWEZA The policeman stopped you and you got off the motor vehicle and what happened? MR MAKHANYA I stepped out, he requested to search the vehicle and asked me to open the boot. MR KHWEZA And at that time where were the other three gentlemen? MR MAKHANYA They were seated inside the vehicle. MR KHWEZA What type of vehicle was that? MR MAKHANYA It was Ford 3 Litre. MR KHWEZA Was it a van, was it a kombi or was it just a private car? MR MAKHANYA It was a private car. MR KHWEZA So when this policeman was searching the boot or was looking at the boot, the other three gentlemen were remaining, sitting inside the vehicle? MR MAKHANYA Yes they were inside the vehicle. MR KHWEZA And what happened? MR MAKHANYA I then opened the boot and there was nothing in there except for a cylinder head. I then closed the boot. He then proceeded towards the front door. MR KHWEZA Then what happened? MR MAKHANYA As I was the closing the boot I heard a gunshot going off. MR KHWEZA What happened thereafter? MR MAKHANYA Then Bobbie ordered me to drive, proceed. MR KHWEZA Do you know who shot this policeman? MR MAKHANYA Yes, it was Bobbie Matabata. MR KHWEZA What happened to the policeman when he was shot? MR MAKHANYA I did not see, I just saw him stepping backwards at which point I got into the vehicle and drove off. MR KHWEZA And proceed, what happened? MR MAKHANYA I then drove towards the direction of Durban and certain cars started chasing us. MR KHWEZA Proceed? MR MAKHANYA We encountered a road block somewhere near ...(indistinct) when we did not stop and the police started shooting at us. MR KHWEZA Who fired the shots at that stage? MR MAKHANYA The police shot at us and the people inside the vehicle exchanged fire with the police. MR KHWEZA Proceed? MR MAKHANYA We drove on and as we approached Umtwalomi the car was hit by a shot so we could not proceed anymore. MR KHWEZA Then what happened? MR MAKHANYA We then alighted the vehicle and ran towards the sugar cane fields. We then took separate directions and that was the last time I saw them. MR KHWEZA Do you know what happened to Bobbie and the other two gentlemen? MR MAKHANYA I learnt that Sonny Majosi was arrested and that Duma was shot and killed from a helicopter. Bobbie was shot and injured, he was taken to King Edward where his legs were amputated. MR KHWEZA And the other gentleman, what happened to him? MR MAKHANYA Sonny was arrested. MR KHWEZA Do you know the outcome of ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think you've given us Sonny's surname a moment ago, what's his surname? MR MAKHANYA Majosi. MR KHWEZA You understand that he was later apprehended and do you know what happened to him eventually? MR MAKHANYA I just heard recently that he has been released. MR KHWEZA When was he released? MR MAKHANYA I think it was around December last year. MR KHWEZA Did Bobbie and the two gentlemen tell you on the day in question as to what they were going to do? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before we come to that, while we are dealing with him being arrested, he was then charged and convicted, is that correct? MR MAKHANYA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was he the only accused or was Bobbie also charged? MR MAKHANYA He was taken to hospital and he was under police guard but he escaped. CHAIRPERSON And what sentence did Sonny get? MR MAKHANYA I'm not certain but I think it was around 30 years imprisonment. MR KHWEZA Now coming to the contents of the bag in question, did you know what Bobbie, Sonny and the other gentleman were going to do with this bag? MR MAKHANYA I would say they normally had firearms so that they would be able to execute whatever duties they were ordered to. MR KHWEZA You told the court that prior to this incident you were staying with these three gentlemen. Since when did you stay with these gentlemen? MR MAKHANYA Since 1990. MR KHWEZA Why were you assisting these gentlemen to escape after they had shot the police officer in question? MR MAKHANYA I was aware that the police would be after us therefore we had to flee and the people were still returning from exile and it was proper that we should leave the scene. MR KHWEZA At the time when this incident took place you were a member of the ANC. Did you understand the position of the ANC regarding the armed struggle? MR MAKHANYA Yes I did although I cannot recall exactly whether at that time the armed struggle had been suspended or not but I think it had not been. MR KHWEZA Did you know who had given the orders to Bobbie, Sonny and the other gentleman to carry out the operation in question? MR MAKHANYA Bobbie was in charge of those guerrillas and he reported to somebody I did not know but he was the person in charge of the other persons. MR KHWEZA And as a person who was staying with these gentlemen what was your specific role in the whole set up? MR MAKHANYA I had also been trained inside the country. As an older person I used to transport them to wherever they needed to go. MR KHWEZA If you were to be specific, what goal were you aiming to achieve with this operation, what objective were you aiming to achieve? MR MAKHANYA We were still fighting for the liberation of our country when this incident took place. MR KHWEZA When this incident took place did you regret what you were doing? MR MAKHANYA No, I did not have any regrets. MR KHWEZA Why? MR MAKHANYA Because at the time we were still oppressed and the police were still harassing, shooting at us. MR KHWEZA So what did you want to achieve with your act? MR MAKHANYA We were fighting for our liberation. MR KHWEZA I have no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KHWEZA CHAIRPERSON Any questions? MS MTANGA I have no questions thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Questions from the Panel? ADV BOSMAN Yes thank you Chairperson. Mr Makhanya, on page 1 of your application form where it's asked from you if you are or were an officer, officer bearer, member, supporter of any political organisation, you wrote ANC/MK/SDU. Were you a member of an SDU, an MK member? MR MAKHANYA I was a member of MK. ADV BOSMAN And who was your commander, was it also Bobbie? MR MAKHANYA It was Bobbie. ADV BOSMAN And then on page 8 of the papers, if your legal representative could perhaps show it to you, paragraph 4, you state that, in the last two lines "They jumped in the car with some bags which I did not bother to find out what they were carrying. I drove back to Umgababa." Did you know that these were firearms at that stage? MR MAKHANYA Yes I did know. ADV BOSMAN When did you become aware of it exactly? MR MAKHANYA I knew that when they carried bags that there would be firearms in them, nothing else. ADV BOSMAN So the reason why you did not ask was because you knew, is that what you are saying? MR MAKHANYA Yes I did know it. ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. ADV SIGODI Was your car found after you ran away? MR MAKHANYA Yes it was found. ADV SIGODI Then was this your own car that registered in your name? MR MAKHANYA Yes it was registered in my name, I had recently bought it in Hillcrest. ADV SIGODI Now why were you not arrested together with the others? MR MAKHANYA I escaped and I hid under a bridge. ADV SIGODI No but surely the police would be able to trace the owner of the car back to your own address? Why were you not arrested? MR MAKHANYA The police were looking for me, I skipped the country. ADV SIGODI So after this incident you left the country. Where did you go to? MR MAKHANYA I went to Transkei and I was transported there by some attorney. I remained in Transkei until 1996. ADV SIGODI Okay thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you remember that you've made an affidavit on the 25th January this year? MR MAKHANYA Yes. CHAIRPERSON You've been referred to that affidavit and I wish to refer you to paragraph 4, page 8 and I'm asking you this question because you told us that the other people were staying with you for almost a year before the incident, is that correct? MR MAKHANYA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now why did you state in this affidavit "I can only remember one by the name of Duma who died on the scene of this incident which will be discussed below." MR MAKHANYA When I wrote the affidavit I had not as yet learnt their full names because at the time we used to call them by their code names but now I do know their full names were Sonny Majosi and Dumaklaba. CHAIRPERSON Who told you about their full names now, in this preceding two months? MR MAKHANYA I heard from comrade Sithole. CHAIRPERSON And another thing "I did not see who was shooting but I saw this white traffic officer taking a few steps backwards." Now you've told us that it was Sonny who fired the shot - not Sonny, it was Bobbie who fired the shots. How did you come to know that at this stage? MR MAKHANYA I realised that it was him because the policemen opened the front door where he was seated. CHAIRPERSON But why didn't you realise that on the 25th January when you made the affidavit? MR MAKHANYA I do not recall that I did not mention it. If that is the case I must have missed it but with regards to who fired the shots, I assume that it was Bobbie because he was the person who was sitting in front. CHAIRPERSON Right, perhaps I should address this to your attorney. You're only applying or your client is only applying for amnesty to assist them to escape, he is not applying for attempted murder? MR KHWEZA Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON It's your contention that what happened there was unforeseen, he didn't associate with it and he didn't foresee that a policeman could be wounded or killed? MR KHWEZA That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, and you're also asking amnesty for the transporting of illegal weapons? MR KHWEZA Yes that is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Any other directly connected offence with the transporting of the illegal weapons and the assisting, there's nothing else you want amnesty for? MR KHWEZA There's nothing else besides that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any further questions? MR KHWEZA I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Any further witnesses? MR KHWEZA No other witness. MS MTANGA I will not be calling witnesses, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Would you like to address us? MR KHWEZA IN ARGUMENT Thank you Mr Chairperson. This is a clear and straightforward matter. The applicant has disclosed the whole truth regarding the incident in question. Although there are some minor contradictions regarding his vive voce evidence when compared to his affidavit, the applicant did not at any stage of the proceedings fail to disclose the relevant facts in this application. From what the applicant has told this house, it is clear that the applicant knew exactly what he was doing, was associated with a particular political objective. The applicant knew that his comrades were in a political mission and therefore he saw the need to assist them in escaping after the police officer in question was shot at. Mr Chairperson, it's my submission therefore that the applicant has complied with all the requirements as set down in the Act and I submit therefore that the applicant is a suitable candidate to be granted amnesty. Those are my submissions, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Anything you wish to add? MS MTANGA No Chairperson, I'll leave the matter in your hands. NO ARGUMENT BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Any questions from the Panel? Thank you Mr Khweza, we will in due course let you know what we've decided to do. Thank you. Alright, is that the roll for the day or is there anything that we could carry on with? MS MTANGA That's the roll for today, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I see, I think it's the members of - what are they called, the Correctional Services? We're proceeding tomorrow, would you be in a position to have the applicants here at 9 o'clock tomorrow? Would it be possible? Anybody here from Correctional Services? Ask them whether they'll be in a position to have the applicants here tomorrow by 9 o'clock. Would it suit us all if we could start at 9 o'clock tomorrow? We're adjourning until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. WITNESS EXCUSED