amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-03-27 UMTATA 1 NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA AM6534/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54105&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200327um.htm CHAIRPERSON Good afternoon everybody. This afternoon we'll be commencing with the amnesty application of Mr Siqhola, Nkosinathi Siqhola. Before we proceed, I'll introduce the Panel to you. I did it this morning, but for those of you who were not here, I'll do it again for your benefit. On my left is Mr J B Sibanyoni, he's a Member of the Amnesty Committee and he is an attorney and he comes from Pretoria. On my right is Mr Ilan Lax, also a Member of the Amnesty Committee, also an attorney and he comes from Pietermaritzburg. I am Selwyn Miller, I'm a Judge of the High Court, and I come from Umtata and I'm attached to the Transkei Division of the Court. I'm also a Member of the Amnesty Committee. As you can hear, these proceedings will be simultaneously translated into isiXhosa. Before we proceed, I'd request the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record. Mr Dukada? MR DUKADA ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER The speaker's mike. MR DUKADA I'm Sorry. Thank you, Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Nceba, N-c-e-b-a Dukada, I'm a member of the local bar. I've been briefed by the State Attorney to represent the applicant in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Dukada. MR STOFILE My name is Lungisile Stofile, I'm an attorney of the firm L L Stofile and Company, I represent Mrs Nomonde Matoti in these proceedings. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Stofile. MR MGIDLANA I'm Thandewefika Mgidlana, I'm appearing for the victims, as well as the implicated persons. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Did you say victims and implicated persons? MR MGIDLANA And some of the implicated persons, yes. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, which implicated people are you appearing for? MR MGIDLANA As they appear in the list referred to by the applicant. CHAIRPERSON And there won't be any conflict? MR MGIDLANA It does seem there won't be any, Chair. MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson. My name is Zuko Mapoma, I'm the Evidence Leader for the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Mr Dukada, are you going to call the applicant? MR DUKADA Yes, thank you. Mr Chairperson, I understand Mr Mgidlana to be representing the victims and he says some of the implicated persons. I don't know whether all of them, if he can just clarify that Chair, before I lead the witness. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mgidlana? MR MGIDLANA Is the question that Chairperson, all of the implicated persons or some of them? CHAIRPERSON Well that's what Mr Dukada wants to know. MR MGIDLANA In particular I'm appearing for Col Jekem, however I also received instructions in respect of the other people that are implicated. May I indicate that the attitude that I adopted was that because on the application itself it is not clear to what extent the applicant is going to implicate all these people. I've just received an affidavit now which seems to be setting out the extent of the implication. However, the position is so far that we would listen and after he has given his evidence, it's then that we'll make up our mind as to whether I can be able to appear for all of them. CHAIRPERSON What we don't want to arise, Mr Mgidlana, is for us to pick up a part-heard matter. You know if it comes like halfway through you can't represent people and then they've now got to get another attorney and then that would mean - we don't want to pick up a part-heard, it's extremely for the TRC to rearrange hearings, getting the same Panel together, getting the same legal representatives together, it's not easy. It's far more difficult than postponing a matter in Court, the logistics involved are far greater. So we don't want that sort of situation to arise. Which victims are you appearing for? MR MGIDLANA It's all the people that were tortured by the applicant, as well as the Jafta family whose property was destroyed and who were also tortured by the applicant. MR LAX Sorry, may I just enquire. You say all the people, do you agree with the list referred to at paragraph 12 of this affidavit which has just been handed to us? Excluding of course, the people that Mr Stofile represents? MR MGIDLANA Yes, the person that is represented by Mr Stofile, who is Nomonde Matoti. MR LAX That's at G, yes. Thank you. MR MGIDLANA I hold the instructions in respect of all the others. MR LAX Okay. Alright you carry on and then I'll ... MR MGIDLANA May I also indicate that there was also the view that probably the matter could be postponed till tomorrow, so that the question of the representation of the implicated persons could be addressed, because it does seem that they got to know when they appeared here, that they were not going to be represented, it was only one person that I was instructed to represent initially. And from the application it seems then that there wasn't much mention of him except that he had issued orders of which we thought we would have clarified and then it could be clear as to whether or not there would be any instructions - any conflict of interest insofar as the application is concerned. But I had indicated earlier on to the other implicated police officers that probably it might be better for them to try and find whether or not the office of the State Attorney could not send somebody else. CHAIRPERSON Well you see as far as I know the practice is that implicated people, their representation isn't paid for by the TRC. MR LAX Not necessarily. CHAIRPERSON No, but that's the rule, unless there's a exceptional circumstance, then that will have to be considered but generally speaking, the legal representation is no longer paid for by the TRC, of implicated people. So it's not a question of getting hold of the State Attorney to appoint a representative. It might be if they were policemen and it's done through that, but not through the TRC, they don't pay for implicated people's legal representation, just for applicants and victims. MR MGIDLANA In fact as I understand it, the instructions will be coming from the office of the State Attorney, because they were members of the Police Force outside the TRC legal aid instructions. MR LAX Just one last question, not to you but to Mr Mapoma. Just in terms of our statute, 19(4) notices were obviously sent to various people, the people mentioned in this affidavit at paragraphs 15.3, 15.4 and so on, 15.2, they are people who are mentioned in other places in the various documentation. Did they receive 19(4) notices? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, I will not be able to say offhand that all these people whose names appear in this document at this point, have been given Section 19(4) notices, but all I can say Chairperson, is that all the persons who are implicated in the documents that were in the possession of the TRC as at the time we prepared this matter, have all been given Section 19(4) notices. I may as well point out Chairperson, that I did speak to one of the implicated persons and explained, as the Judge has just said, the question of their representation by the TRC, and I have even made it clear to them that this Committee will not necessarily make a finding concerning themselves. All that they were notified is that they have got a right to be present here to the extent that they may be implicated and then make whatever representations they want to make, having heard what has been said by the applicant and the extent to which they are implicated. And Chairperson, if I may move further, I suggest at this point in time that we proceed with the application in-chief and representation and in the meantime the implicated persons will be here to consider their rights, and in the event of legal representation having to be made on their behalf, then I will take it upon myself to assist them in securing whoever may represent them. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Dukada, can we proceed now, are you satisfied? MR DUKADA Thank you, Mr Chairperson. We are ready to proceed in the application. Mr Chairperson, this is a preliminary, the applicant in his official application form made a statement and subsequent to that there were certain requests for further details to the statement and he also prepared individual affidavits to some of the issues raised by the member of the Committee who put questions in writing to the witness. The affidavit which I handed to the Committee and the various legal representatives, is no more than a consolidation of various responses emanating from the affidavits. May the witness first be sworn, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Dukada. NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Dukada. EXAMINATION BY MR DUKADA Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Is it correct that you are a Captain in the South African Police Force and Acting Station Commissioner for the district of Qumbu? MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA You have made an application for amnesty before this Committee. MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA And just to get your background, Mr Siqhola, if you look at paragraph 4 of your affidavit, can you just read that paragraph. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I think Mr Dukada, before you proceed, you're referring to the affidavit that was handed in this morning, I think for purposes of the record, we'll call that Exhibit A. MR DUKADA Exhibit A, yes thank you. CHAIRPERSON So this affidavit that we received this morning, deposed to by the applicant, is Exhibit A. MR DUKADA Thank you, Chairperson, Honourable Members. Mr Siqhola, can you read from paragraph 4 of Exhibit A. MR SIQHOLA "I was born and grew up at Mvumelwano administrative area, in the district of Qumbu. I attended my primary and higher education at Mvumelwano Primary School and Qumbu Village respectively. Throughout my upbringing in the district of Qumbu, I was not exposed to any political education, nor did I belong to any of the then lawfully recognised political parties in the former Republic of Transkei. All forms of unofficial political activities were banned in Transkei. Trade unions were also prohibited." MR DUKADA Yes, thank you. And you passed your standard 10 examinations in 1979, is that correct? MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA And then you joined the then Transkeian Police Force on the 13th June 1980. MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA And you underwent your training at the Transkei Police College in Umtata. MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA And did any persons come to recruit you to join the Security Branch whilst you were undergoing training? MR SIQHOLA What kind of a group? INTERPRETER Will you please repeat your question. MR DUKADA Sorry Mr Siqhola, my question was, at the time you were undergoing training as a police recruit, did any members of the Transkeian Security Branch approach you and recruited you to join the Security Branch? MR SIQHOLA Yes. MR DUKADA And are you able to remember the names of the two persons who came to you whilst you were at the training college? MR SIQHOLA Yes, I can still remember their names. MR DUKADA Will you tell the Committee the names of those persons. MR SIQHOLA The first one was Gen Gladile, the second one was Gen Lavis. Those were the two people. MR DUKADA And then after you completed your police training, there was a pass-out parade in Umtata, is that correct? MR SIQHOLA Yes. MR DUKADA Did anything happen to you on the day of the pass-out parade? MR SIQHOLA Yes. MR DUKADA Yes, could you please elaborate that to the Committee. MR SIQHOLA After leaving the stadium I was taken to the security offices on the first floor of the Botha Sigcau building. When I arrived there with other members we were given some documents with three pages. This document looked more like an affidavit or an oath that was supposed to mean that we were joining the South African Police Force. MR DUKADA No, no, sorry, I don't think the interpretation is accurate. The witness is saying that they were joining the Transkei Security Branch, not the South African Security Force. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR DUKADA Will you please confirm that Mr Siqhola, is it correct that you were told that you had joined the Transkei Security Branch? MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA And can you read from paragraph 7.1 of your affidavit. MR SIQHOLA "During 1981, I attended security lectures at 6th Floor, Botha Sigcau building, Umtata. These lectures were conducted by a certain Capt Smith of Zimbabwe. At times Gen Lavis would lecture us. At the lectures we were told about communism and its danger to South Africa and Transkei, in particular we were told that the African National Congress was a security threat to Transkei and South Africa." MR DUKADA And can you just proceed with paragraph 7.2 as well. MR SIQHOLA "Our lectures concentrated on ...(indistinct) tactics and strategies of combatting communism, countering of strategies of all banned organisations and exterminating all revolutionary forces in the Transkei and the Republic of South Africa, particularly the African National Congress, which we were told was waging war against the people of Transkei and South Africa. We were also shown political video material, some videos showing the burning of human bodies by a tyre, in the townships of South Africa. We were told that these were some of the atrocities which were committed by the ANC in its struggle for revolution in South Africa. During the lectures we were asked to make all endeavours to combat the activities of the African National Congress, which was then regarded as a serious threat to Transkei and the Republic of South Africa. One of our lecturers, Mr Smith, already referred to above, would even cry during lectures and urged us to hate the ANC in particular. I became convinced that what we were told in the lectures was correct. I began to hate the ANC immensely." MR DUKADA Captain, is it correct that the Transkei Security Branch had a number of offices throughout the ...(indistinct) of Transkei? MR SIQHOLA Yes. MR DUKADA Each office in each district was headed by a Branch Commander. MR SIQHOLA Yes. MR DUKADA And in the Transkei Police Force, particularly the Security Branch, you served in the districts of Port St Johns, Lebote(?), Lady Frere, Tabankulu and Umtata. MR SIQHOLA Correct. MR DUKADA Was there any political activity in the districts of Port St Johns, Lebote, Lady Frere, Tabankulu? MR SIQHOLA No. MR DUKADA Do you recall arresting or ill-treating any person whilst stationed in these districts other than Umtata? MR SIQHOLA Not at all. MR DUKADA Is it your evidence before this Commission that your duties in these districts was simply to keep surveillance of certain suspects who had been identified to you by your seniors as a serious threat, as well as screening applicants for firearm licences? MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA Now Captain, is it correct that your first encounter with ANC activists was in 1984, when you were transferred from Tabankulu to the Umtata security offices? MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA And you served under Brig Dengana, at offices which were situate in Norwood suburb in Umtata. MR SIQHOLA Correct. MR DUKADA And is it further your evidence that there were several other senior policemen there, including Col Sifumba, Col Booi, Col Jekem, Capt Jushu, Capt Sabantu(?), Lieut Tonenge and many others you cannot recall at this stage? MR SIQHOLA Correct. MR DUKADA And what was your rank at the time you were in Norwood security offices? MR SIQHOLA I was a Constable. MR DUKADA And is it correct that at that stage the rank of a Constable was the most junior one in the Security Branch of the Transkei? MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA And who would give you instructions concerning your duties as a member of the Security Branch? MR SIQHOLA The senior officers including the Branch Commander, would give me instructions. MR DUKADA By Branch Commander, are you referring to the Branch Commander of the offices which were at Norwood, in Umtata? MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA And is it also correct that at times you would be summoned to the Security Headquarters in Umtata at Botha Sigcau building, and given instructions? MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA Captain, can you precisely tell the Committee exactly what was your mandate from your superiors at Norwood Security Branch? What were you asked to do? MR SIQHOLA Please repeat the question, Sir. MR DUKADA As a member of the Transkei Security Branch, what were you told to do for your seniors, concerning the activists? MR SIQHOLA My duty was to arrest per instruction through the detention(sic) warrant who was serving under Section 47, Act 13/77. MR DUKADA And you would get instructions from commissioned officers in terms of the security legislation, to arrest political activists, is that correct? MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA And as a junior policeman holding the rank of a Constable, did you have any powers to authorise any arrest? MR SIQHOLA No. MR DUKADA Okay. Read from paragraph 9.2 - towards the end, Honourable Committee - the sentence starting with "My duty". I'll just read what you've deposed to here. You say "My duty was to arrest a person and hand him or her over to a head of prison for detention, thereafter I would report to my immediate senior handling the matter. On a number of occasions I would be instructed to go and arrest a person by means of a warrant, being virtually ignorant about the circumstances leading to the arrest and detention of such person." CHAIRPERSON Do you confirm that? MR DUKADA Do you confirm that? MR SIQHOLA Yes, I do confirm. MR DUKADA In fact - just to clarify this for the purpose of the Committee, it is not that you were not aware about certain things in connection with the arrest, but on a number of occasions there would be instances where you'll be authorised simply to execute a warrant. MR SIQHOLA ...(no English interpretation) MR DUKADA There will be instances where you will be given a warrant to go and arrest an activist or a person. MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA Can you read, Captain, from paragraph 10.1 of your affidavit? MR SIQHOLA "And then he will be interrogated by all members of the Security Branch, including myself. During the course of interrogation a detainee would be assaulted by the Security Police, including myself, in order to get information regarding to the activities of the banned organisations, particularly the ANC. The interrogation would take place only in the presence of senior officers. At no stage did I interrogate any detainee alone." MR DUKADA Yes, can you carry on with paragraph 10.2, Captain, which I find is very important. MR SIQHOLA "The assault would take various forms, clapping a detainee with open hands and clenched fists, beating a detainee with a sjambok, forcing a detainee to hold a chair by both arms upwards for an inordinate period. The detainee would collapse due to exhaustion and fatigue. Letting a detainee to do physical exercises. Some of them were push-ups. Forcing a detainee to kneel against a wall for a long period. Every member of the Security Branch, senior and junior, was aware of, and in fact used the above torture methods to induce a detainee to divulge information about banned organisations, particularly the ANC." MR DUKADA Yes carry on please, Captain, paragraph 10.3. MR SIQHOLA "There was a method which was popularly known as helicopter. That is, a detainee would be handcuffed and a stick would be used to suspend him between two tables. Various detainees were victims of this practice, which was very popular in the Security Branch." MR DUKADA Yes, thank you. And then during 1986, the Security Branch introduced a further torture method of detainees. Can you elaborate on that? The one which you refer to in paragraph 11 of your affidavit as a canvass bag treatment. MR SIQHOLA ...(no English interpretation) MR DUKADA Yes, can you just read the second sentence of paragraph 11. MR SIQHOLA "A canvass bag would be filled with water and the head of the detainee would be submerged into the water, in order to suffocate him or her. This would be done until the detainee divulged the required information. Again a number of detainees were the victims of this practice." MR DUKADA Is it your evidence, Captain, that the helicopter as well as the canvass bag method were used by the Security Police in Transkei, to force detainees to give information? MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA And in paragraph 12 of your affidavit you set out a list of persons whom you assaulted, just read the list please, for the benefit of the people who are here. MR SIQHOLA ...(no English interpretation) MR DUKADA Yes, you start with Dugard Maqekeza. CHAIRPERSON I think just perhaps for record purposes, Mr Dukada, at the beginning of paragraph 12 he states that those are the people that he can recall. MR DUKADA Oh yes, he states that. CHAIRPERSON In other words, it might not be an exhaustive list. MR DUKADA Yes thank you, Mr Chairperson. Is it correct that during your performance of duties as a member of the Transkei Security Branch, you handled a number of detainees? MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA And at this stage you are not in a position to remember all of them. MR SIQHOLA I cannot remember all of them. MR DUKADA Can you read out the list of those whom you can remember at this stage. MR SIQHOLA Yes. The first one is Dugard Maqekeza, Mayekiso, Thobile Ndlaku, Njobane(?) brothers, and the other one was a teacher and the one was a civil servant. It's Manelisi Nyoka, Edgar Zote and his brother, Norman Demadut(?), Mvula Mtimkulu, Sisi Ndamasi, Boy Jafta, Mnyatheli, Tom, Toto Magwentshu, Doctor Nombi, Phambili Jizana. And the others I can only remember when I see their faces. MR DUKADA Yes thank you, Captain. In fact, Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members, J is - Boy is spelt as B-o-y, not Booi. CHAIRPERSON B-o-y? MR DUKADA That is correct. In your paragraph 13 of the affidavit, you claim that the assault and torturing of detainees was well-known by senior members of the Transkei Security Branch. END OF SIDE A OF TAPE START OF SIDE B MR SIQHOLA At times we would be given instructions to assault a person, when this helicopter method was used and clapping people with open hands and the method of the canvass bags. Even the offices that we were using were in the very same buildings. Meaning, if you were assaulting a person here in this room, the people next-door would hear what was happening. MR DUKADA In your affidavit you also claim that at times a detainee would be interrogated by senior members and brought to you already hurt. MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA Can you explain to the Committee - are you able to remember the names of officers who used to give instructions to interrogate and assault detainees? MR SIQHOLA Yes, I can still remember their names. MR DUKADA Can you just name them - in your paragraph 13 of the affidavit. MR SIQHOLA Brig Dengana, Col Sifumba, Col Jekem, W/O Ntobela. MR DUKADA In your affidavit you claim that the canvass bag method of torturing was the brainchild of W/O Ntobela. MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA Now whilst you were a member of the Security Branch there were several applications to the High Court on behalf of detainees, to restrain the Security Police from assaulting the detainees. You are aware of that? MR SIQHOLA Yes, I am aware. MR DUKADA And the police would first oppose those applications, but the majority of them will be settled out of Court. Is that your evidence? MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA Can you explain, Captain, why the actions were not defended successfully by the police? MR SIQHOLA First of all, I think that they did not want to be embarrassed in Court. Secondly, it was a sign that they were aware that the detainees were being assaulted by the Security Branch officers. If they were aware that the detainees were not assaulted, that couldn't be settled out of Court, charges would be laid against the policeman and the policeman would appear in Court, or else police would be arrested departmentally for assaulting the detainees. Therefore nothing like that happened, therefore I think it was lawfully done. That is my opinion. MR DUKADA Is it correct, Captain, that amongst the victims you've mentioned before this Committee, some of them instituted proceedings either personally or through their families, to restrain you and other members from assaulting them. MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA And just to conclude this aspect. There were also claims for damages as a result of wrongful detentions and assaults of detainees after detainees have been released, and those claims were also not contested by the police, the police paid. MR SIQHOLA I did not hear your question, Sir. MR DUKADA After a detainee has been released, some of them would institute claims against the Minister of Police for assault and wrongful detention and a number of those claims were not contested, the Minister would settle and pay. MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA Captain, whilst on this aspect, were you ever charged criminally for having assaulted a detainee or subjected to any disciplinary enquiry in the Department? MR SIQHOLA No. MR DUKADA Did you regard assault and torture as a vital weapon in the Security Branch to induce detainees to give information? MR SIQHOLA I saw that as a method that was used. MR DUKADA Captain, during 1986 you were involved in the arrest and assault of a number of detainees, is that correct? MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA And these arrests and detentions came as a result of a shooting which occurred at the local police station in Madeira(?) Street. MR SIQHOLA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA And the shooting was alleged to have been done by members of the military wing of the African National Congress. MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA And you repeat that all those you arrested or came ...(indistinct) to whilst in detention, were assaulted by you in the manner you have explained. MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA And the second incident in 1986 which involved arrests and detention, was an incident which took place in a house of Jafta family in Willowvale, do you still remember that? MR SIQHOLA Yes. MR DUKADA Can you very briefly state what had happened there. Paragraph 13.2 of your affidavit, can you just read from there. MR SIQHOLA "During or about 1986, the house of a certain Jafta family in Willowvale, was burnt by the Security Police. This was an operation by members of the Transkeian Defence Force, under the command of Lieut Mandela, Transkei Anti-Riot Unit, East London Security Branch, under the command of Capt de Lange and the task from the South African Police was part of this operation." MR DUKADA There were a number of policemen who converged there, precisely what was the reason for them to go there? MR SIQHOLA It was alleged that Mr Jafta was harbouring the terrorists, as they were called at the time. MR DUKADA And who was your Commanding Officer when you went there? MR SIQHOLA We were under W/O Ntobela. My Commanding Officer at the time was Col Fetman, a Branch Commander at the Security Branch. MR DUKADA Briefly, Captain, can you just tell the people here what actually took place there, in very brief terms. MR SIQHOLA When we arrived there it was myself, Sqhola(?), Const Themane, W/O Ntobela, Sgt Madikizela, Const Ntjali, Const Gumengu, W/O Mzinyati. When we arrived there we were actually investigating, following up the clues that we got when we were torturing Dugard Maqekeza, who told us that his brother who was also an alleged terrorist, was in Willowvale. When we arrived at Mr Jafta's place we were shot at with an AK47 rifle. We ran away. We ran out of the yard. We didn't actually leave. There was a dense forest just behind the shop, we walked around the forest because we could see that the person who was shooting was actually in that forest. We called for reinforcements in Butterworth and Umtata. Butterworth sent some soldiers under the command of Lieut Mandela. A lot of policemen came from Umtata, amongst them there were a few people that were known to me. During the day, as we were still surrounding that forest, we heard some sound and we realised that it was not a firearm, it was not a gunshot, those were handgrenades and rifle grenades. The soldiers from the anti-riot and the policemen shot at Mr Jafta's house and the shop and so much damage was done on the shop and even the groceries inside the shop were in tatters." MR DUKADA Do you know a reason why the house of the Jafta family was bombed and burnt down? MR SIQHOLA No, I do not know because the terrorists that we were looking for were in the forest or in the bushes. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Dukada, if I may just briefly interrupt. Did you yourself throw any handgrenades, fire any shots or take part in the destruction of Mr Jafta's property? MR SIQHOLA I never participated in damaging the property, but I was part of the operation. I can't even handle a handgrenade and a rifle grenade. I never participated. MR DUKADA Thank you. Are you admitting that you were part of the policemen who were at the premises of the Jafta family when the house was gutted down? MR SIQHOLA Yes, I was part of the police. MR DUKADA Though you did not physically do anything either to damage the property or cause any other harm in the family. MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA And is it correct that the Jafta family, that is the father and the mother, the son and the daughter, were also detained and taken to Norwood security offices in Umtata? MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA And Boy Jafta was interrogated and assaulted and you also took part in the assault. MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA Captain, did you personally acquire any benefit as a result of your activities in the Transkeian Police Force? MR SIQHOLA No, there was no benefit. MR DUKADA Is it your evidence before this Committee that you genuinely and bona fide believed that you were performing patriotic duties then? MR SIQHOLA I was certain that I was actually protecting my country and I was honest. MR DUKADA Now in 1987, Captain, there was an attempt to recruit you to join a notorious Security Branch, everybody called CCB. MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA And did you refuse to join the CCB? MR SIQHOLA Yes, I refused. MR DUKADA Can you turn to page 16 of your affidavit, can you read from the words "I never participated ..." CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just before you proceed Mr Dukada, I've just read this very briefly prior to starting and one thing came to mind. Are you sure it's the CCB, or was it not C10? It's just that the use of - he says that they used askaris and as far as I know, the askaris were used by C10, rather than the CCB. I don't know, maybe if your client could just clarify that. MR LAX C10, just for your information, was Vlakplaas. CHAIRPERSON C10 is Vlakplaas, it's commonly known as Vlakplaas, that was under the command of de Kock, Eugene de Kock and Coetzee at the time, in Pretoria, but they were from time to time in the East London area in particular as well. They made the use of askaris. MR DUKADA Thank you, Mr Chairperson, Honourable Member, the witness will explain the terminology. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SIQHOLA This term CCB, I do not know about it, I only knew the Vlakplaas branch that was in East London. In one farm that was East London, I also assisted the TRC to go and point out that farmhouse. When I left Umtata I was going to assist in the investigation because it was said that a so-called terrorist was arrested in East London, but when I arrived there there was no terrorist. I was then taken to a farm, it was late in the night, I was taken to a farmhouse outside town. We were driving in a tinted kombi. This kombi was full, I was sitting in a certain space, occupying a certain space, not the seat, facing the opposite direction as the kombi was going forward. I couldn't see the road ...(intervention) MR DUKADA Sorry Captain, just to make the story very brief. Is it correct that there was an attempt for you to join the Vlakplaas Police branch? MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA And you declined to join the Vlakplaas. MR SIQHOLA Yes. MR DUKADA And requested that you be returned to Umtata immediately. MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA In fact you did return to Umtata and you have absolute no knowledge about the Vlakplaas activities. MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA Yes. And you say in your affidavit that time and again you'd see a tinted minibus in Umtata, with black persons who would be identified as askaris and they were in the company of a certain van Wyk from the SAP. MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA And it transpired to you that the Transkei Security Branch had something to do with the askaris in Transkei. MR SIQHOLA What askaris? MR DUKADA No, no, what I'm saying is, just for your convenience, if you can just turn to page 16 of your affidavit, that's where you say that - you say "When I was recruited to join CCB, a certain person who had been left with me in East London, identified himself as an askari and told me about the activities of askaris and their cooperation with the SAP and Transkei Police Force." MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA And you deny having worked with any askaris or any member of Vlakplaas or the CCB in Transkei. MR SIQHOLA I never worked with any of them. MR DUKADA Right, if you can turn to page 17 of your affidavit, paragraph 17.1. Whilst you were a member of the Security Police in 1989, you also encountered two ANC detainees, Mayapi and Zambian(?), is that correct? MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA And at times you would have discussions or conversations with the two detainees about political issues. MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA And the two detainees would tell you about the exact role of the ANC in South Africa. MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA Did you become convinced by the teachings of the two detainees? MR SIQHOLA Those were the people who managed to persuade me. MR DUKADA And then you stopped assaulting and torturing detainees. MR SIQHOLA I never assaulted anyone thereafter. MR DUKADA Now in 1990 you were transferred from the Transkei Security Branch to the Head Office in Botha Sigcau building and there you stopped doing security duties at all. MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA And according to your affidavit, your duty was merely to sort out the mail in the offices. MR SIQHOLA Yes, I was sorting mail. MR DUKADA Now you enquired from the police as to the reasons why you had since been stopped now from performing security duties, is that correct? MR SIQHOLA I didn't hear the question. MR DUKADA Now when you were transferred from the Norwood Security Branch to Botha Sigcau building to sort out mail, did you enquire as to why you were transferred from the Security Branch? MR SIQHOLA I was told. MR DUKADA Is it your evidence that you were accused by your Commander of being argumentative and uncooperative at the Security Branch? MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA And later you were transferred from Botha Sigcau building to the Anti-Riot Unit in Bangaliso Police Station, where you remained until Transkei became reincorporated. MR SIQHOLA That is correct. MR DUKADA The last incident at paragraph 19 of your affidavit, page 18. During the course of consultation you explained an incident relating to the attempted coup against the then Gen Holomisa. MR SIQHOLA That is correct, I indicated that. MR DUKADA And you were told by a member of the Military Intelligence of the Transkei Defence Force, to be part of an operation which was to thwart an attempted coup. MR SIQHOLA I was not going to be involved in the coup, we were going to attack the people who were going to overthrow the government. MR DUKADA Yes sorry, Captain, to put it ...(indistinct), I intended asking a different question. Can you read from paragraph 19.3 of your affidavit. MR SIQHOLA Point 3. MR DUKADA 19.3, at page 19. MR SIQHOLA Yes. "On the night in question, at about 12 midnight, I was given an R1 rifle and driven to a quarry ..." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON That's the quarry you refer to above, that's the quarry next to the Tescor premises. MR DUKADA Yes. CHAIRPERSON It should be Tescor, with an "r" at the end, the Transkei Electricity Supply Corporation. MR SIQHOLA "The driver, instead of taking the route towards the direction of Qogolweni administrative barrier, took a turn and proceeded towards the Tescor. The security guards at Tescor drew out firearms and we surrendered. We were delayed by the security guards because they did not know us. While we were being questioned by the guards, we heard gunshots from the direction of the quarry. We did not go to the quarry subsequently. Subsequently I learnt that the minibus was damaged and people were seriously injured. Later I learnt that one of the occupants of the minibus died as a result of injuries sustained during the shooting." MR DUKADA Is it your evidence, Captain, that you don't know the names of the persons who were inside the minibus? MR SIQHOLA I was even scared to ask them their names, even those who were in my company, I couldn't ask their names. MR DUKADA And lastly, Captain, can you read from paragraph 20.1 of your affidavit. MR SIQHOLA "In retrospect I realise that I caused great harm and suffering to a number of innocent persons, including those referred to above. I sincerely apologise to those who were victims of my ill-treatment while in detention. I humbly pray the Honourable Committee to grant me amnesty." MR DUKADA Can you just read further please. MR SIQHOLA "At the time I perpetrated the deeds referred to above, I did so with a bona fide belief that the Security Branch was fighting an evil significantly. Though the time I was in the Security Branch, I did not have any political maturity, I had no idea about politics of the African National Congress and other organisations which were then banned. At the time I genuinely believed that the Transkei Security Branch in collaboration with the South African Police, were correct in combatting the activities of the ANC, which was then regarded as a terrorist organisation. I bona fide believed that at the time my conduct was justified and the detainees I assaulted, deserved such treatment because they were waging war, a war of communism to the Transkei and the Republic of South Africa." MR DUKADA Carry on, please. MR SIQHOLA "I would not have assaulted and tortured detainees if I had acquired a correct political education prior to the joining of the Transkei Security Branch. All what I did was due to my rural background, empty-handedness and acute indoctrination I'd received from the Security Branch." MR DUKADA And you regard that you have disclosed a complete picture of your role as a member of the Security Branch in Transkei. MR SIQHOLA As I have mentioned each and every detail, whatever happened that is not mentioned here, obviously happened during my absence. MR DUKADA Thank you, Mr Chairperson, Honourable Members, that's the evidence of the witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DUKADA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Dukada. Mr Mgidlana, are you in a position to ask questions now? MR MGIDLANA Chairperson, seeing that the time is almost about five to four, as well as I would like to clear some issues that were raised by the applicant, I will ask that if we could adjourn until tomorrow morning. CHAIRPERSON Mr Stofile? MR STOFILE Chairperson, as I indicated earlier on ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, you're not in a position to question. MR STOFILE I would like to reserve my cross-examination, perhaps tomorrow, probably by that time ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON To get instructions, and so you can read the papers. MR STOFILE Yes. CHAIRPERSON I see it's almost 4 o'clock now and as indicated by the attorneys who are representing the victims and others, they have indicated that they wish to have a bit of time just to take some further instructions and to be able to read the papers properly before they start questioning, so this would then be a convenient time to adjourn. We will adjourn until tomorrow morning in the same venue here. Would 9 o'clock be convenient? MR MGIDLANA It will be convenient for me. CHAIRPERSON 9 o'clock tomorrow morning in this hall we'll carry on with this matter, when questions will be put to Mr Siqhola by the attorneys representing the victims. So we'll adjourn until then. Thank you very much. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS