amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-03-29 PINETOWN 3 ZAMAGUTLE GREGORY SITHOLE AM5991/97 ATTACK AT THE POINT, DURBAN BEACHFRONT https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54112&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200329pi.htm CHAIRPERSON It seems as though there are no matters on the roll for today, so shall we adjourn and call it a day and go down to Cape Town? MS MTANGA Chairperson, if I might just apologise for my absence. We are waiting for the lawyers for the applicants. They are on their way. CHAIRPERSON But there was a lawyer for the applicants this morning, early this morning already, in the one matter. MS MTANGA She just asked to shortly consult with her client before ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well we've adjourned until 9 o'clock and we're due to start at 9 o'clock and she didn't ask us or approach us to ask for the matter to stand down. Could you kindly find out and ask her to come in and she should come and explain why. MS MTANGA She's on her way, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Could the representatives kindly put themselves on record. MS DE KLERK Chairperson, I'm Adv de Klerk, I appear for both applicants in this matter. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell your surname? MS DE KLERK D-e K-l-e-r-k. MS MTANGA Chairperson, I'm Lula Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Commission. CHAIRPERSON Could you perhaps give us a background? I see there are three persons sort of figuring as applicants, but there's an application for one of them, Mr Howmore Ngcobo(?). What is his position? MS MTANGA Chairperson, I'm not understanding your question, Mr who? CHAIRPERSON Howmore - if you ... MS MTANGA Oh yes. Mr Howmore Ngcobo has not been notified at all because he never stood for trial, he was found to be incompetent to understand the proceedings. CHAIRPERSON And as far as we know that is still the position? MS MTANGA That's still the position, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Right. MS MTANGA So he's not part of these proceedings today. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and as far as notices are concerned, what's the position? MS MTANGA As far as notification is concerned in respect of the victims, we managed to locate about four to five people and then an advertisement was put in the paper. I don't have the exact date, but it was either the 1st of March or at the end of February, but the office will come back and confirm with me because the copy I have does not have the date. But I'm certain it was done early. I instructed so, and I was involved in the notifications as well. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And was it published in a local newspaper here in Durban surrounds? MS MTANGA That is so, Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN In which newspaper, Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA Chairperson, I'm not exactly sure because what I have here is display ...(indistinct), but I will find out from the office. It must have been either the Natal Witness or another English paper, because all the victims were white people who are English-speaking. ADV BOSMAN Not in a national newspaper? Because some of these victims I gathered were holiday-makers. As a matter of fact I personally know of a victim who was a holiday-maker. Would this have come to their notice? MS MTANGA Chairperson, according to the addresses that we had of them, they're all in Durban, so the assumption that was made by the office was that they're local people and therefore the advertisement was placed locally. CHAIRPERSON Are we still waiting for the applicants? MS MTANGA Chairperson, the applicants are here and I think they can take the stand, with the permission of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Are they sitting here? MS DE KLERK Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well could you kindly invite them to come and sit next to you. Mr Sithole and Mr Tembe, kindly take a seat there. Ms de Klerk, who would you like to call first? MS DE KLERK Mr Sithole. CHAIRPERSON And would he be giving evidence in English or Zulu, or what language would he prefer to give evidence in? MS DE KLERK Zulu. ADV SIGODI Could you give us your full names? ZAMAGUTLE GREGORY SITHOLE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MS DE KLERK Mr Sithole, how old are you? MR SITHOLE I'm 33 years old. MS DE KLERK Where are you currently residing? MR SITHOLE I'm incarcerated in Westville Prison. MS DE KLERK Why are you in prison? MR SITHOLE It's because of an offence I committed in 1990, where I was part of a group that stabbed and killed some white people. MS DE KLERK Do you have any children? MR SITHOLE I have one child. MS DE KLERK Are you married? MR SITHOLE No. MS DE KLERK Were you employed prior to you going to prison? MR SITHOLE I was a casual employee. MS DE KLERK Where were you a casual employee? MR SITHOLE At Mike Bailey Carpets and Curtains. MS DE KLERK Did you support your child prior to you going to prison? MR SITHOLE Yes, I did. MS DE KLERK And what education did you have prior to going to prison? MR SITHOLE I had completed matric. MS DE KLERK Where did you complete your matric? MR SITHOLE At Emzuwele High School in KwaMashu. MS DE KLERK What education do you have now? MR SITHOLE At present I'm doing my final year in a BA in Communication Science. MS DE KLERK Are your parents still alive? MR SITHOLE I was born to a single parent, so my mother is still alive. MS DE KLERK What work does your mother do? MR SITHOLE She's a domestic worker. MS DE KLERK Why do you think that your mother is a domestic worker? MR SITHOLE As far as I know it is the result of the political situation that existed in our country, that is the apartheid policies. MS DE KLERK Have you ever been convicted of a criminal offence other than the one that you've been convicted for now? MR SITHOLE No, I've never been arrested nor convicted. MS DE KLERK Let's talk a bit about your political affiliation. Where were you living before going to prison? MR SITHOLE I resided in Mduzuma. MS DE KLERK How long did you live there? MR SITHOLE I think about six or seven years. MS DE KLERK In the time that you were living there, did you belong to any political party? MR SITHOLE Initially I was just a supporter of the PAC, but I eventually joined as a full member. MS DE KLERK When did you join as a full member? MR SITHOLE I think it was around the end of 1988, or the beginning of 1999. MS DE KLERK How old were you when you joined the PAC? MR SITHOLE I could have been 21 or 22 when I joined as a member. MS DE KLERK Why did you join the PAC? MR SITHOLE There are many factors that prompted me to join the PAC, one of which was the fact that around 1987 I read in a newspaper and in that newspaper there was an article on Mr Motsopeng(?), who was the leader of the PAC. Mr Motsopeng was a very militant person and he explained what the PAC was about and I believed that they were the best organisation to join towards the road to liberation. MS DE KLERK So did you agree with the PAC's political philosophies? MR SITHOLE Yes, I did. MS DE KLERK Did you have any reservations about the PAC's political philosophy? MR SITHOLE I did not have any reservations. MS DE KLERK As a youth when you were in school, did you play an active role in the PAC? MR SITHOLE When I was still at school I was not yet a member of the PAC, but I would take part in demonstrations. For instance, when Griffiths Mxenge died in 1985, I was part of the people who protested and demonstrated against the death of Mr Mxenge, as well as taking part in other demonstrations that were held. MS DE KLERK What was your role in the PAC? MR SITHOLE I was an ordinary member of the PAC, but since I was interested in recruiting persons to join the PAC, that's what I did in my area. CHAIRPERSON Was there a PAC branch for instance in your area, or wasn't it a structured organisation in the sense of having branches and chairpersons and that kind of thing? MR SITHOLE There was no formal structure in my area, that is why I had initiated attempts to recruit people so that we could formalise a structure and have a branch, a formal branch in our area. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS DE KLERK How were decisions made within this informal structure? MR SITHOLE We would meet and discuss as PAC members and we would analyse the situation in the country and decide, discuss around which roles, what we could do to assist in the struggle towards liberation and the destabilisation of the apartheid government. MS DE KLERK How did you - who introduced you to the PAC? How did you become a member? MR SITHOLE Initially I was just a supporter of the PAC, until such time that I met Howmore who gave me details of contact persons in the PAC. He is the person also who got me PAC literature such as Manifestos and Constitutions. He advised me to join if I was interested, and join formally. MS DE KLERK So did you honestly believe that Howmore was a representative of the PAC? MR SITHOLE I believed him to a member of the PAC because he confirmed everything that I had heard about the PAC. MS DE KLERK Tell us a bit about the political instability in the area in which you lived, okay. Were people killed on a regular basis? MR SITHOLE The situation was very serious in the area, people were killed and there was ongoing conflict between ANC and IFP supporters. They would launch counter-attacks against one another. As such quite often people could not even sleep at night. ADV SIGODI Sorry, I didn't hear you. Was there ongoing conflict between what? Which parties? MR SITHOLE It was between the ANC and IFP. MS DE KLERK How did your branch, if I may call it a branch, react to these killings? MR SITHOLE We viewed this conflict between the ANC and the IFP as a result of a campaign by the apartheid government who we believed were responsible for destabilising the black community, therefore we did not necessarily criticise the two organisations involved in the conflict, but we were critical government. MS DE KLERK Now tell us about the incident on the 9th of October 1990, where one person was murdered and six other people were injured, okay. Did you know these people? MR SITHOLE You are referring to the people who died? MS DE KLERK The one person died and six others were injured, did you know these people? MR SITHOLE No, I did not know them. MS DE KLERK And yet you attacked these people. MR SITHOLE Yes, we did. MS DE KLERK Why did you attack these people? MR SITHOLE We were of the belief that all whites in this country played a role in the exploitation of black people in this country because in all areas at their places of employment, people were complaining about the exploitation that they suffered at the hands of white people, so that from the top to the bottom everyone implemented the policy of apartheid because they created problems for black people in every sphere of their lives. That is why I believed that they were all responsible for the exploitation and the suffering that was experienced by black people. MS DE KLERK So I take it then that this attack was inflicted on any white persons. MR SITHOLE That is correct. MS DE KLERK So you weren't specific in your attack at all? MR SITHOLE We were not specific on who we attacked, we were just after the oppressors. MS DE KLERK And the oppressors were? MR SITHOLE The white people I've just referred to who were responsible for ensuring that the black person is oppressed and exploited. MS DE KLERK Who decided that this approach should be adopted? That is the killing of white people. Who decided? MR SITHOLE It was Howmore's idea that we should take a stand and do something because there was a population group that was content with the situation because they were the exploiters, therefore we also had to take a stand and react to the situation so that they realise that we are feeling the pain. MS DE KLERK Was it Howmore's personal decision or was this decision made by higher authority within the PAC? MR SITHOLE I communicated with Howmore, he's the person who discussed the matter with me, but there are other PAC members who took part in this discussion. MS DE KLERK Where did this discussion take place? MR SITHOLE The campaign to destabilise the apartheid government was a matter that was discussed daily, but there were instances where we met specifically for that reason. But this matter was an issue that was discussed very often, that we were being victimised. We would sometimes meet at my home, sometimes when we went to football camps we would also discuss these matters and we decided that we had to fight. CHAIRPERSON As I see it, that was the general discussion, but when was this particular operation planned and decided on? MR SITHOLE We were at my home. Prior to this discussion we had held various discussions with PAC members as well as with Howmore. On the 8th of October, Howmore arrived at my home in the company of other PAC members and that was where the plan was finalised that we were going to attack. MS DE KLERK Did you say that the meeting was held at your home? MR SITHOLE Yes, the meeting that finalised everything, and we also left from that meeting to go and launch the attack, but the decision had already been taken prior to the date, that is between myself, Howmore and other PAC members. My home was the place from which we left to go and launch the attack. CHAIRPERSON Could you kindly tell us about the meeting where the decision was taken. You say the decision was taken, you were there and Howmore was there and other PAC members, could you perhaps inform us more in detail about that meeting and who were present and who proposed what and were they leaders of the PAC or were they supporters or members? Who attended this meeting and who decided on the operation? MR SITHOLE As I mentioned before, the meeting was held at my home, I called other supporters of the PAC to my home and we waited for Howmore and other PAC members who were interested in taking part in the attack. When they arrived it had already agreed upon that we were going to launch the attack. So they arrived and we discussed the matter. We were of the opinion that we could not take weapons with to go and launch this attack from that spot because we might be disturbed by forces within the government. It was therefore decided that we would acquire whatever weapons on our way. We then held a prayer and then thereafter left on that mission. MS DE KLERK Who was in control of the meeting? MR SITHOLE It was Howmore. MS DE KLERK And you've told us now what ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Ms de Klerk, we'll have to have more detail, a full disclosure about the people who accompanied him, who had the meeting, who decided. MS DE KLERK Who else was at the meeting besides Howmore and yourself? Do you know any of the other members' names? MR SITHOLE I do know some but I did not know the names of the people who were approached by Howmore. One of the people who were present was Ntlantla Mdema and Thembiso Zulu, as well as Sgorra Zulu, as well as Du Zulu who is now late, as well as another Ntlantla whose surname I've forgotten. MS DE KLERK Are you familiar with these people who attended this meeting? MR SITHOLE The people I've just mentioned were all very familiar to me, but Ntlantla Mdema was not very close to me, but the rest were the people I normally discussed issues with. MS DE KLERK Exactly what was discussed at this meeting? MR SITHOLE I should just clarify that before this meeting I had discussed with other PAC members and we had agreed on launching the attack and I had also explained to them that Howmore had come up with this idea and it was generally accepted. So that when we went to my home it was just to meet and finalise everything and leave for the attack, but agreement had already been reached on the attack prior to this meeting. CHAIRPERSON Ms de Klerk, in order to avoid coming back matters, whenever he refers to "we decided, we did this", he should give us the names of people who decided because otherwise we'll have to come back later and ask the same questions over and over, so kindly clear this up before he goes about he's trying to tell us. MR SITHOLE The people I'm referring to, those whose names I've just mentioned, that is Thembiso, and Sgorra and Du Zulu as well as Ntlantla Mdema ...(intervention) ADV SIGODI Can I just interpose here and get clarity on this. Your applicant, Mr Rodney Tembe, has his name been mentioned here? Is he known as Thembi Zulu too? Was he present at the meeting? MR SITHOLE I do not recall seeing him at home because I first started to know Mr Tembe after our arrest. Possibly he could have been one of the people who accompanied Howmore, or who was known to Howmore, but I did not know him at the time. ADV SIGODI And can you just give us an indication of how many people attending the meeting at your home? MR SITHOLE All in all, including those who came with Howmore, I would estimate them to be around 12 or 15 but I do not have the exact figure. ADV SIGODI Thank you, Ms de Klerk, you may continue. MS DE KLERK When you keep on speaking about an attack, what attack are you speaking about? MR SITHOLE The attack that was going to be directed against the oppressors who were white people. MS DE KLERK What type of attack? MR SITHOLE We were going to use knives to launch the attack. MS DE KLERK Was it only knives that was agreed on, or was it any weapon that could be used? MR SITHOLE It was only knives that we had agreed upon. MS DE KLERK For that specific attack on the 9th of October or for any other attack that came thereafter? MR SITHOLE It was with regards to the attack on the 9th, that is where we had agreed on using knives because those were the only weapons accessible to us, we did not have firearms. MS DE KLERK So at the meeting held at your home, was it agreed that - sorry, did you make a decision in the relation to the attack on the 9th of October, or a blanket decision that you would attack white people? MR SITHOLE We made a decision about the 9th, that was the date on which we had agreed to launch the attack. CHAIRPERSON Right thank you, could we now proceed. People left your house, did you leave together and where did you go? MR SITHOLE Please repeat that question. CHAIRPERSON You've decided now on the attack and you were meeting at your home, did you leave all together, going down to the city or where did you and what happened as a result of the decision you've taken? MR SITHOLE After we had finalised everything, Howmore gave me the responsibility of security a vehicle that would transport us to the beachfront. I went out to the streets and a white vehicle approached and I stopped it. I then requested from the driver to take us to the Point area. He enquired how many we were and I gave him the number of 13 and he said he wanted money. I agreed to pay him R50. Thereafter he transported us to the Point. MS DE KLERK When you got to the Point, what happened then? MR SITHOLE We alighted from the vehicle and just walked about and proceeded towards the beachfront. There was an area where there were benches on which we just sat and just played soccer and in the meantime we would just discuss and also pray to give us strength. MS DE KLERK What time did you get to the beachfront? MR SITHOLE I think it was about eleven, quarter past eleven. MS DE KLERK The night before the incident on the 9th? MR SITHOLE Yes, it was. MS DE KLERK So what did you all do that evening? MR SITHOLE We were just relaxing and we had a soccer ball which we played and we would use this as a decoy so that the police would not take much interest in us. We were also firm believers in prayer, so we would pray and try to encourage one another so that we are strong and brave to carry out the mission. We were even prepared to die, so we were motivating one another. MS DE KLERK Tell us about the incident on the 9th of October now. What was your role? MR SITHOLE The following morning we then went to a shop - I omitted something earlier. When we arrived there the night before we then stayed around the area, but Howmore, myself and two other comrades went around the area to investigate the shops from which we could good knives, so that on the following day we already knew which shop we would target. So we went to a shop, bought something to eat and thereafter we went to this shop we had targeted where we would get a knife. Howmore went inside and pulled out a shelf where the knives were kept. That was when we went in. I personally took two knives, one which I put around my waist and the other I carried in my hand. When I went out, Howmore had already left the shop and I saw him in front of me. At that time I saw him stabbing the first white person and a young woman approached and I stabbed her. From there I proceed and towards the corner there was a boy who was selling newspapers, who stepped aside. As I turned the corner another white woman approached and as I carried the knife in my hand in that fashion, she bowed her head and I stabbed her on the neck. INTERPRETER As the applicant indicated. MR SITHOLE I could feel that the knife did not really go in that deep. Thereafter I heard gunshots and I went behind Checkers where there was a truck parked. I took the knife and threw it under that vehicle and ran towards the lift in the Checkers store. Thereafter I went out of the lift and proceeded towards the Post Office. On my way I met Mr Tembe and we just walked slowly, so that we do not attract any attention. That is why we decided to walk very slowly. We stopped next to the Post Office, we went inside and came out again. At that time I had the knife that was around my waist. We went towards a park. As we were in that park policemen approached and they stopped us. They ordered us to raise our hands and they found the knife that was on my waist and that was when I was arrested. MS DE KLERK Why did you keep the one knife on you? MR SITHOLE I knew that the white people could have noticed us and they could have followed us, so it was important to keep the knife so that if they do approach I am able to use it to make my way through. MS DE KLERK When you say make your way through, do you mean defend yourself? MR SITHOLE Yes, to be able to defend myself and find my way out. MS DE KLERK How did you feel about the incident that had just occurred? - what you had done. How did you feel about it? MR SITHOLE Are you asking me how I feel about it now? MS DE KLERK No, after you had stabbed these white ladies, how did you feel about it? MR SITHOLE I was satisfied that I had played some role in expressing my anger towards the exploiters. I was satisfied because even my forefathers had died for this cause for this country, so I did not care what happened to me. MS DE KLERK Did you know that what you had done was wrong? MR SITHOLE What I did I did because the government was illegitimate, therefore I did not regard myself as falling under any, or being governed by any laws that were passed by that illegitimate government. Therefore, I did not look at it as being wrong. But when you look at it in human terms, yes, it could be regarded as wrong, but at the time I was fighting against the oppressor and that is how I viewed it. MS DE KLERK You say that you were fighting against the oppressor, but you stabbed innocent white people, how do you reconcile the two? MR SITHOLE As I explained before, apartheid was not only being implemented by the government at the top or the police and the military only, for it to succeed it was necessary for white people to implement apartheid at workplaces, that is why people were always suffering at the hands of white people at their workplaces, and they were being exploited by the very same people who were alleged to be innocent. All white people were responsible for ensuring that the white government succeeds in exploiting and oppressing people. When I grew up I would do odd jobs in white people's homes. When you get there you would be made to feel that you are nothing, even the child in that house would know that you are basically nothing and you would be treated as such. Therefore, there was that education that went around in the white community to enforce apartheid, so that we as black people feel it in every sphere of our lives and therefore I viewed them as having been, all of them being responsible for the suffering that we felt. MS DE KLERK Did you receive any compensation for your part in the stabbing? MR SITHOLE The only compensation that I received is the liberation that we enjoy today. MS DE KLERK Did you participate in the stabbings out of any malice, ill-will or spite? Personal malice, personal ill-will, personal spite. MR SITHOLE A person who has a history of exploiting you, oppressing you, is generally viewed as not being good, but the overall intention was to build up this country. MS DE KLERK What happened after the incident? You were arrested were you not, as you've told us? MR SITHOLE Yes, I was arrested. MS DE KLERK Were the stabbings reported to the National Branch of the PAC? MR SITHOLE After this incident we were taken to CR Swart and I am made to understand that PAC leaders would come and request to see us, but they were not permitted to do so, but after while some did arrive and they were permitted to see us and they would bring us things like toiletries and such. MS DE KLERK What was their reaction to this course of action that you and Howmore and the other members had embarked on? MR SITHOLE When they arrived they were very happy and they chanted slogans and they informed us they were in the process of securing attorneys for our case and they're going to take up our case. ADV SIGODI Can you give us any names of key people who came to see you and undertook to assist you? MR SITHOLE At the time it was Eunice who came, as well as another gentleman whose name I do not recall, as well as another young lady, but I knew Eunice. ADV SIGODI Did she occupy any particular position at the PAC? MR SITHOLE She was employed by the unions at the time, I'm not sure whether it was NACTO(?) or not, but she was also a member of the PAC. I am not certain of her position within the organisation, but I would normally find her at PAC offices. ADV SIGODI Thank you. Ms de Klerk, you may continue. MS DE KLERK What was the reaction of the community to this incident on the 9th of October? MR SITHOLE I would not be able to comment on that because I was already incarcerated, but what happened is that after we did this, some AWB members from Empangeni came looking for us and when they did not find us they shot at a bus where many people were killed. That was the only reaction that I got to know of. MS DE KLERK How do you know that these AWB members were looking for you specifically? MR SITHOLE It was mentioned in the media and I also heard about it when they appeared before the Truth Commission, that they were indeed looking for us. MS DE KLERK So do you feel that these stabbings on the 9th of October, that it achieved its objective? MR SITHOLE For the reason is liberated today, I believe that yes, it did achieve the objectives that were intended, that is to destabilise the apartheid government and show everyone that that government could not even protect their own and in that manner they could be able - that would make way for a democratic government. MS DE KLERK You were criminally charged for your role that you played in this incident, is that correct? MR SITHOLE That's correct. MS DE KLERK Who represented you at the trial? MR SITHOLE At first it was an attorney by the name of Mavundla, when we were still at the Regional Court. When the case went to the Supreme Court we were represented by Adv Phoswa. MS DE KLERK Who paid for your legal representation? MR SITHOLE It was the organisation, the PAC. MS DE KLERK How many others stood trial with you? MR SITHOLE It was myself, Stembiso next to me, Ntlantla Mdema as well as Duduzi Buthelezi, as well Sgorra Zulu and Du Zulu, who has since passed away in prison, as well as Ndodo. CHAIRPERSON Could you perhaps refer to page 64 of the bundle, 12 names are appearing there and they were your co-accused I presume. MR SITHOLE About 12, ja. CHAIRPERSON No, not about 12, exactly 12. MR SITHOLE Yes, I do see it. CHAIRPERSON Were they all convicted or were some of them acquitted? MR SITHOLE The only people who were convicted was myself and the co-applicant. MS DE KLERK What was your defence at the trial? MR SITHOLE I personally did not testify in Court, it was the advocate who put forward a defence. CHAIRPERSON I see according to the indictment that Howmore was about 40 years of age, so he was far older than all of you? Or at least there's one other one, number one, Stembiso Johannes Zulu, he was also about 36 years of age, the rest of you were in your 20s and teens, is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, although I do not know his age, Howmore was older than us. CHAIRPERSON And Howmore couldn't stand trial because he was mentally ill, is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, that is what was said in Court. CHAIRPERSON Do you know when he became mentally ill, or did he behave in the same manner as he behaved right through from the first time you've met him? MR SITHOLE I only heard about his mental illness over the radio, but I was not aware that he was ill. And also for the fact that we used to have discussions with him and we would communicate effectively. He would also tell us that the enemy was white persons, not fellow Africans, so I did not regard him as a mentally unstable person. He had never mentioned anything to me that indicated that he was ill. CHAIRPERSON Have you seen him since? MR SITHOLE No, I've not seen him because he is in Medium A and I'm in Medium B. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS DE KLERK How long were you incarcerated as an awaiting trial prisoner? MR SITHOLE I was arrested on the 9th of October 1990 and I was only convicted on the 15th of May 1992, and I spent all that time incarcerated. MS DE KLERK Was Howmore also incarcerated at the same time as you? Was he arrested on the same day, on the 9th of October? MR SITHOLE Yes, I received reports that he had sustained injuries after being shot but he was under police guard in hospital. MS DE KLERK So as far as you know - sorry, was Howmore, after he recovered from his injury, was he then placed in awaiting trial prison, the same as you? MR SITHOLE No, he spent some time in hospital and after he recovered we were able to meet, see each other. Sometimes he would be taken back to the hospital and sometimes he would be with us. MS DE KLERK So was he also an awaiting prisoner? Was he not granted bail? MR SITHOLE Yes, he was not granted bail, just like the rest of us. CHAIRPERSON Is that your evidence-in-chief? MS DE KLERK No, there's just one other little aspect. How do you feel now about the incident on the 9th of October? MR SITHOLE My feelings and thoughts are gravely influenced by the political situation, so that today I would not be in a position to do something of that nature because the political situation has changed, but it is not something that I would have done had it not been for the fact that white people were behind black people slaughtering one another. MS DE KLERK What do you think were the consequences of the killing and the stabbings of the deceased's family and the victims' families? MR SITHOLE A person who has lost a loved one or who sustained injuries feels pain, that is a natural process, so I do know that those who lost their loved ones felt pain and were emotionally affected. MS DE KLERK Do you have anything to say to these people or to their families? MR SITHOLE Yes. What I can state is we should all be grateful that the government of the day is doing its best to reconcile everyone in this country. So what I would say to them is, let us strengthen the democratic order that is prevalent so that we can all reconcile and be able to live with one another. And I will also apologise to them and say it was the result of the government's actions that the incident took place. MS DE KLERK In terms of this offence you were sentenced to imprisonment, how long, how many years were you sentenced to? MR SITHOLE I was sentenced to 12 years imprisonment. MS DE KLERK How many years have you served of your sentence? MR SITHOLE I have served my sentence from 1992, May, up to today, that's about seven years and eight months, I'm not certain. MS DE KLERK What were the consequences of your imprisonment for your family and your dependant? MR SITHOLE That is an unfortunate bit because we are not rich people, so that the situation became worse and life became very difficult for my family because when you are incarcerated your family also incurs a lot of expenses. So they have suffered quite gravely because of that. MS DE KLERK Why are you now seeking amnesty? MR SITHOLE It is because I believe that my actions were motivated by the political situation and I am prepared today to be able to live in harmony with the people who were my political rivals at the time. MS DE KLERK If you were granted amnesty, what would you do? CHAIRPERSON Really that is not a requirement of the Act, if you could tell us which requirement of the Act you're referring to in leading the evidence, then it would be relevant for us on the issues we've got to decide. I know for reconciliation purposes it is perhaps necessary to lead evidence about the sufferings he had and the apologies to victims, but it's not requirements of the Act for amnesty. MS DE KLERK Mr Chairperson, Mr Sithole has specifically asked if he could say something to the victims. CHAIRPERSON Well he's said it now. MS DE KLERK That is the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS DE KLERK CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Questions? Is there anybody representing any victims, or are you representing the victims? MS MTANGA Chairperson, as far as I know I will be assisting them and I was about to ask the Committee for a five minute adjournment so that I can consult with them because they were not yet present when we started the hearing, so I have not had the opportunity to speak to them. CHAIRPERSON Would five minutes suit you? MS MTANGA I would think so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Okay, let us know as soon as you are ready and try to be punctual. MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We'll adjourn for five minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ZAMAGUTLE GREGORY SITHOLE (s.u.o.) MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson. If I may just indicate for the record, the only victim in this matter who has attended the hearing is Ms Aden Pearce. I have passed around the statement that she made to the Human Rights Violations Committee. I'm not sure if the Committee has got that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Sithole, I have very few questions to put to you, the first one is a personal question from Ms Pearce, who is the victim of this incident, she's sitting right next to me here. She would like to know what were you wearing on the day of this incident. On the 9th of October, what were you wearing? MR SITHOLE I was wearing something red, it was a T-shirt or a sweater with long sleeves, red in colour, and then underneath that red T-shirt I also had another PAC T-shirt. MS MTANGA Do you know if any person was wearing a peach T-shirt? Or when you say red, do you mean led like the lights on this or something that's closer to being peach? MR SITHOLE It was almost red, but it was blood red, almost like what I'm pointing here. A long-sleeved T-shirt. MS MTANGA The reason that I'm asking you is Ms Pearce is of the view that the person who attacked her on that day was wearing a peach T-shirt and in your evidence when you mentioned that you attacked a young lady, she seems to believe that you are the person who attacked her, and it's been important for her to know who was her attacker on that day. Do you remember her face by looking at her? MR SITHOLE I'd be lying if I can say I can recognise her. I cannot recognise her. CHAIRPERSON Wouldn't it be perhaps of assistance if Ms Pearce could tell us where she was wounded, where she actually was stabbed? MS MTANGA Chairperson, must I allow her to speak? CHAIRPERSON Ja, or you could ask her and tell us, or she could tell us if she wants to. MS MTANGA Chairperson, Ms Pearce is indicating that she had a superficial wound on her head and then a second serious stab wound was on her left leg and then it came out to the upper part of her thigh and that this stabbing took place just outside Lonsdale Hotel. CHAIRPERSON But the applicant testified that he stabbed at somebody, as I understood it, behind the neck. MS MTANGA That was - I think he was referring to the old lady, that's the second victim, the first victim was a young person. I don't specifically recall his evidence about how that person was stabbed. CHAIRPERSON No, I don't think he told us about that. MS MTANGA Mr Sithole, can you please - are you able to recall the first victim, whereabout did you attack here? That is, the place. MR SITHOLE Below, I will say below her body. CHAIRPERSON And do you know whether that occurred near to the Lonsdale Hotel? MR SITHOLE I didn't take notice of the hotel, therefore I wouldn't know near which hotel it occurred. I only know about this now that it happened near the hotel, but I didn't take notice of any hotel. CHAIRPERSON Where exactly, vicinity-wise, did you stab the first woman? Near to the shop? Which shop, could you still remember? MR SITHOLE I am not familiar with Point area, therefore I wouldn't be able to say near which area. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but it was near the shop where you got the knives, wasn't it? I understood you to say you came out of the shop, saw Howmore already stabbing a person, proceeded ...(indistinct) and the first person you saw you stabbed. MR SITHOLE It wasn't nearby, but it was in the vicinity of that shop. ADV SIGODI Could you not perhaps assist by telling us whether you recollect what the victim was wearing? MR SITHOLE No, I cannot, I cannot remember what they were wearing. MS MTANGA Okay, just my last assistance to you, Mr Sithole, Ms Pearce is indicating that the Lonsdale Hotel is next to the shop where you got the knife and secondly, she was carrying a surfing board, a silver surfing board. That is the board used by people who are swimming. Do you recall that? MR SITHOLE Yes, I do remember a surfing board, I think it was white, but I do remember seeing a surfing board. I do remember that. MS MTANGA I won't pursue this question any further. Chairperson, it does appear that in all probabilities the applicant may have been the person who stabbed Ms Pearce. CHAIRPERSON Well we're not called upon to make a finding on who stabbed who because we're not in a criminal trial now, we're dealing with the opposite actually. MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson, I understand. CHAIRPERSON But I think at least it may bring some certainty to the victim. MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson, thank you. Mr Sithole, your co-applicant, Mr Tembe, do you - I'll put my question this way. At the time you arrived at Point, did you have further discussions about the attack that you went to carry out the next day, that was on the 9th of October? MR SITHOLE As I've already mentioned, when we left home we had already discussed about the attack and when we arrived there all we did was to encourage each other and to be brave, and we also decided that only the few of us will go. It was myself and two other comrades. We went to this shop to buy knives. That's what happened. And we found a certain shop which had knives, so we decided to go buy those knives there. MS MTANGA If I understand your evidence well, are you saying that the purpose for your going to Point on that day was to carry out this offence on the following day? MR SITHOLE As we arrived on the 8th, we were going to launch the attack on the 9th. The 9th was the date which we planned to launch the attack, but we arrived at the beach on the 8th. We looked for a shop which was selling knives. We were preparing for the following day. MS MTANGA You also indicated in your evidence that there were other comrades from other places whom met you at the Point area, how many people were these people, how many were they? MR SITHOLE I wouldn't be able to say with certainty the number, but what I can say is that when I was home, Howmore came together with other comrades. I think they were ...(intervention) MS MTANGA Mr Sithole, if I may come in there. Your evidence on that, you said the total number that was at your house, including the number that Howmore brought totalled to about 12 to 15 people, am I correct? That left your home to Point. MR SITHOLE Right, right. MS MTANGA And now what I'm asking you is, when you got to Point, were there other comrades waiting for you there besides these 12 to 15 people that you came with? MR SITHOLE Yes, there were, they arrived there. MS MTANGA And then my question was, how many people were there that you found at Point when you arrived with your group of about 12 to 15 people? MR SITHOLE No, I didn't count them. We arrived there at night, we met at the beach, but I didn't count them. But it was a group. MS MTANGA This group or the other group that you found there, where were they coming from, do you know? MR SITHOLE Howmore told me some of them were staying in town in the flats. MS MTANGA Were they aware of the purpose for meeting at Point on that day? MR SITHOLE Since Howmore had already mentioned that there were the other group which was going to meet with us, I think, in fact I'm certain that he had already communicated with this other group. They knew because they met with Howmore and Howmore also came to me and told me that they were prepared to go ahead with the plan. So I think to my knowledge, we were all there for one purpose. MS MTANGA Okay. On the 9th of October, do you recall an incident where some white people were attacking black street hawkers? MR SITHOLE I didn't see that. As I've already mentioned, I left home knowing very well why I was going there, but I didn't see any whites attacking anyone. MS MTANGA The reason that I'm asking you this, Mr Sithole, is that on page 45 we have an affidavit of your co-applicant, Mr Rodney Stembiso Tembe, that's the typed version. The first paragraph is paragraph 4, the third-last line. It reads as follows "This meeting had nothing to do with what happened the next day, that is the committal of the offence, but we were discussing some other issues of the organisation." That's what Mr Tembe says, that at the meeting on the 8th that took place for the whole night, had nothing to do with the incident that took place the following morning. I want you to take note of that. Secondly, he goes on and he says in paragraph 5 - "On the day of the offence, the 9th October 1990 at about 9, we were coming from the said meeting, walking in a group with my comrades, when we were at the corners of West Street and Point Road, we noticed certain white people in civilian clothes assaulting some black white(sic) street hawkers with sjambocks. This annoyed us and we intervened. We went inside a certain neighbour shop and armed ourselves with knives. We attacked every white we met in the vicinity and in this struggle one was killed and several other injured. I do not know their identity." There is no-one who - on paragraph 6, page 46 he goes on and he says - "There is no-one who specifically gave us orders but we all acted on our own initiative." What do you say to this, Mr Sithole? MR SITHOLE As he is saying that no-one gave orders he's referring to the black street hawkers who were assaulting blacks. He's talking about something else and I have no idea about that. I am referring about the incident in which I took part. I left home knowing very well why I was going to the beachfront and I prepared for that and I also looked for a shop where I can buy knives. I did this on the 8th, knowing very well that I was going to do that on the 9th, not that I was going to assault whites who were assaulting hawkers. No whites did this to me. I prepared this prior to the 9th, to show that I knew very well why I was in Durban and why I was at the beachfront. MS MTANGA Was the purpose of your presence at Point on the 9th, communicated to other comrades that you found at Point, Mr Sithole? MR SITHOLE As I've already mentioned, on the 8th in the meeting we planned about this and we were saying that the day which we were going to do this was the following day. We were encouraging each other and I think everyone knew about this. In fact, according to my knowledge everyone knew because we also left there to look for knives. It was because the aim was going to assault whites. They knew that. MS MTANGA When you went looking for a shop where you could get knives, that is the night before, was Mr Tembe amongst that group that went looking for knives? MR SITHOLE The only group which left was the one which went to look for a shop in order to take knives, and I don't remember seeing him. We were four. CHAIRPERSON At the prayers - you prayed that night for courage, did everybody attend the prayers there? All the members of the group. MR SITHOLE Everyone who was there and who came to that place for that, therefore we prayed all together because we were talking to each other. I didn't see any other person and we were doing one thing, all of us. Even when I went to look for a shop which had knives, I was doing that because we didn't want to jeopardise our chance. Maybe somebody left and couldn't hear the whole plan. MS MTANGA Mr Sithole, I find it very strange and difficult to understand why, if there was such a meeting at all where prayers were involved, trying to strengthen people for an operation to be carried out the next day, why would someone like Mr Tembe know nothing about that kind of preparation if there was such a preparation? Can you help me understand why? MR SITHOLE It doesn't confuse you alone, I'm also confused about that. Maybe he left for a while but I'm not sure. It is difficult for me to explain, maybe he will explain. MS MTANGA Okay, I'll move on Mr Sithole. In your application you mention that the incident by Barend Strydom where he attacked black people, influenced you to carry out this offence, can you explain how did this influence you? MR SITHOLE The incident about Barend Strydom is one of the things which boers and whites used to do to the Africans in their own land. Yes, it was another incident which we used to elaborate to other comrades, to illustrate to them as to how cruel whites can be and we used to say whites hate us to the extent that these white men took a gun to the streets and just shot at blacks. And we told each other that we were in the war, not that we were just fighting them, but they were also fighting us. These were the things we used to talk about. We used to use what Barend Strydom had done as an example to other comrades. MS MTANGA One of the important requirements for the Act is that an act that a person applies for must be an act where a person is furthering the political objective of his organisation, or the struggle of his organisation, how would you say this attack on white people by stabbing them, furthered the political struggle of your organisation, the PAC? MR SITHOLE My organisation had an aim to liberate Africans from the oppressors and for one to be able to liberate his people, you're supposed to attack the oppressors because they are the ones who are oppressing you. Whites are part of the oppression or they were part of the oppression, therefore if you wanted to remove this oppression you were supposed to attack the oppressors. In fact, you were supposed to attack them so that they know, it becomes clear to them that the government cannot protect there, therefore they will doubt that government. In that way you would be able to recruit most people to look for another government, so that they can trust that government. Once they lose trust in that present government then they will look for another government, or once they realise that their trust is not on the right place, then they will turn against that government. MS MTANGA In your evidence you've made it clear that you took orders or you were instructed by Howmore Ngcobo to carry out this operation and it was planned by him, what made you accept orders from Howmore Ngcobo? MR SITHOLE Howmore is a member of the PAC, everything he said it was according to the PAC policies and another thing, he came and he helped us, he showed us that he can help us all the way because sometimes he will contact PAC offices, he will bring documents from PAC offices for us to read, and T-shirts. We had so much trust in him. We trusted him a lot and we realised that he taught us one good thing that we should never, not even by mistake, kill someone who is also an oppressed like you are. MS MTANGA Do you know at which branch did Mr Howmore Ngcobo join the PAC? MR SITHOLE No, I don't know in which branch he joined, but he will go to different offices and different regions, sometimes in Johannesburg and he will bring T-shirts and documents. It is difficult for me to know which branch he joined as a member. MS MTANGA Did he ever show you his membership card? MR SITHOLE Yes. MS MTANGA Do you know any PAC person who is well known, that he was communicating with? Or liaising with at that time. MR SITHOLE Bennie. I don't know if you know Bennie, Bennie Alexander. Sometimes he will go and see him in Johannesburg, Motsamai as well, and sometimes he will sleep over at Motsamai's home because they were students in UDW, both of them, University of Durban, Westville. CHAIRPERSON Was one of the members who gathered with you, wasn't he the bodyguard of Mr Makwetu? MR SITHOLE Some of the comrades who were there with us I didn't know their jobs. CHAIRPERSON So you don't know whether the bodyguard of Mr Makwetu was included in the group? MR SITHOLE No. MS MTANGA Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MS DE KLERK There's just one. On the day of the incident when you stabbed these two white females, how did it happen, how did everything happen? Was it quick, was it slow, did it happen over a long period or a short period of time? How did it happen? MR SITHOLE It was quick. It was too quick. MS DE KLERK So you didn't really have a chance to take special notice of any particular things? MR SITHOLE No, I couldn't because it was too quick. In fact, it was so quick that one wanted to continue going to the next victim, two, three victims, and then run away. MS DE KLERK That's all, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS DE KLERK ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Any questions? Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Could you then call the next applicant? MS DE KLERK I call Mr Tembe. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, it seems as though we're in time for the short adjournment. Could we start at - I think we're a bit over time, shall we make it twenty past. Thank you. We're adjourning till twenty past eleven. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS