amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-03-29 PINETOWN 3 MBEKISENI MDUDUZI DLAMINI AM4246/96 MURDER OF MR NICOLSON AND ROBBERY https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54116&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200329pi.htm CHAIRPERSON Perhaps for the sake of the record, we're now proceeding with the amnesty application of Mr Mbekiseni Dlamini, application number 4246/96. The Panel remains the same, consisting of myself, Chris de Jager, Adv Sigodi and Adv Bosman SC. Could the representatives kindly put themselves on record. MR PANDAY Thank you, Mr Chairman. I confirm my appearance on behalf of the applicant, Mr Dlamini. My name is Mr S Panday from the firm ...(indistinct) Panday and Associates. CHAIRPERSON Yes, could we proceed? Have you something to put on record? MS MTANGA No, Chairperson, we can go ahead. The victims, the next-of-kin of Mr Nicolson is here, his name is Derek Bertram Nicolson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Panday, could you continue. MR PANDAY Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Your client, would he give evidence in Zulu or? MR PANDAY In Zulu. MBEKISENI MDUDUZI DLAMINI (sworn states) MR PANDAY Thank you, Mr Chairman. May I proceed? CHAIRPERSON Yes please. EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY Mr Dlamini, is it correct that you apply for amnesty for the murder of Mr Nicolson, as well as the robbery committed on the 27th of August 1991? MR DLAMINI Yes, that's correct. MR PANDAY Is it also further correct that you are currently serving a life term of imprisonment for murder as well as 6 years for robbery, in the Nkome(?) Prison? MR DLAMINI That's correct. MR PANDAY Mr Dlamini, did you at the time belong to any political organisation? MR DLAMINI I was the supporter of AZAPO. MR PANDAY And when did you join AZAPO? CHAIRPERSON No, he said he was a supporter, he didn't say he joined them. I don't know whether there's a difference. MR PANDAY If I may rephrase the question. Mr Dlamini, can you recall from which year you began supporting AZAPO? MR DLAMINI I've been a supporter since 1985. MR PANDAY Can you recall how old you were approximately then? MR DLAMINI I was 15 years old. MR PANDAY Mr Dlamini, do you recall when you were born? MR DLAMINI Ja, in 1968. CHAIRPERSON The 2nd of September? MR DLAMINI Yes, the 2nd of September. MR PANDAY Now would you agree that from '68 to 1985 you're approximately 23 years old? CHAIRPERSON I don't think so, I'm not sure. Either you or he or me should go back to school. MR PANDAY Sorry, Mr Chairman. Mr Dlamini, if you're born in 1986, would you agree that your approximate age should be about, I think it's 17 years old, in 1985? MR DLAMINI Yes, I will agree with you. MR PANDAY Okay, and there's obviously an error in the disclosing of your age in your application form. CHAIRPERSON No well in his application form he stated that he was born on the 2nd of September 1986, so we've got that. MR PANDAY As the Committee pleases. Now Mr Dlamini, what standard of education do you have? MR DLAMINI Standard two. MR PANDAY Now I'm going to take you to the date that you had committed the crime of murder and robbery. Can you please explain to the Committee as to why you had committed this offence. MR DLAMINI It was because of political reasons. MR PANDAY Now what were the political reasons for committing the murder and robbery? MR DLAMINI The organisation of which I was a supporter, didn't have enough money. We needed money in order to proceed with our activities, political activities. MR PANDAY And the killing of Mr Nicolson, what was the reason for killing him? MR DLAMINI Also it was because of political reasons. MR PANDAY Now what was the political reason, can you explain to the Committee. What did Nicolson do or not do that caused you to kill him? MR DLAMINI He didn't give a black person any rights. MR PANDAY What sort of rights do you refer to when you say he did not give a black person any rights? MR DLAMINI For instance, he didn't give blacks a place or a decent place to stay and also he didn't give them enough salary. MR PANDAY What else did he do to the blacks? MR DLAMINI He used to harass and torture blacks. Sometime he will beat them. MR PANDAY Did you know if he had any reason for torturing and beating blacks? MR DLAMINI His reasons I would basically say it was because of oppression, he was oppressing them because he never wished anything good for blacks. MR PANDAY Did you know if he belonged to any political party? MR DLAMINI No, even though I have no proof as him being a member of any political organisation but I perceived him as an AWB member because of the way he treated blacks. MR PANDAY Is that the only reason that made you believe him to be an AWB member? MR DLAMINI He was also involved in the activities of the AWB, like beating blacks, harassing them and just meeting a black person in a street and just beat and leave that person lying on the road. CHAIRPERSON Could you give us an example where Mr Nicolson beat a black person and left him lying in the street? Where did this happened? Where was this street and which town? MR DLAMINI Even though I didn't see him beating a person on the street, but he was always together with AWB members who were doing those things, therefore I perceived him as one of them. And sometimes AWB members will meet a person in the street hitchhiking and they will swear at that person and sometimes beat that person. CHAIRPERSON But you've just told us that he was involved in beating people and left them lying in the street, now even if he didn't do it himself, I had the impression you're indicating that, but can you tell us where he was present when another person beat somebody and left him lying in the street? MR DLAMINI There was an incident where two AWB members, one was Ronnie and the other one was Michael, they met two females, I was also on the road, and they were beaten and they didn't have their clothes on and when I asked them what happened to them, they told me that they met AWB members and they had beaten them and took their clothes. CHAIRPERSON Where was this, which town? MR DLAMINI Underberg. ADV BOSMAN How did you know that these two people, Ronnie and Michael were AWB members? MR DLAMINI These were white people whom I knew very well because they were also from the farm, they usually come to the farm. And also, police will come and visit them and we will enquire how come police usually visit these white farmers and the domestic workers will tell us sometimes that these were AWB members and these were their activities, like meeting people on the street and beat them, sometimes take their clothes as well. ADV BOSMAN You may proceed, Mr Panday. MR PANDAY Now Mr Dlamini, you said that the police would meet them, do you know if all these people met as a group? MR DLAMINI They usually held their meetings in a farm and sometimes they would meet in a certain hotel in Underberg. MR PANDAY And how did you all get to know of these meetings? MR DLAMINI We were residents there and sometimes we will meet them and sometimes they will have braais in the farms, so we will see them. MR PANDAY Now I want to know specifically how did you know that these people were AWB members, what did they do or what did they say or what indication did they give to show that they were AWB members? MR DLAMINI Sometimes when they had their gatherings and having braais, if we were walking nearby there will be another group waiting in the gates and as we were approaching they will sjambock us like chasing us away. CHAIRPERSON Now lets concentrate on the deceased, did they have a meeting at his place? MR DLAMINI Yes, meetings were held at his farm. CHAIRPERSON In his house? MR DLAMINI Yes, in his house, because he didn't have a hall, they were meeting in his house. CHAIRPERSON And on those occasions, were there guards at the gates and were people harassed and assaulted there? MR DLAMINI No, not in his house, in his house usually there were no boers who will stand there and guard the house, in fact blacks never used to like passing through nearby his house because they were scared of him. CHAIRPERSON So this didn't happen at his house, those meetings you were talking about previously, when there were guards at the gates and people being chased away? MR DLAMINI No, not in his house, it would happen sometimes in town. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PANDAY Mr Dlamini, by killing Mr Nicolson, what did you hope to achieve politically? MR DLAMINI By killing Mr Nicolson it was a way of enlightening Africans, showing them that we can stand up to these people who were oppressing us. MR PANDAY Now you mentioned that you were a supporter of AZAPO, were there any other people in the area that supported AZAPO? MR DLAMINI Yes, but I didn't want to meet with them and to reveal to them that I had an intention of killing farmers or boers, therefore I never revealed myself to them. MR PANDAY And was there any other political party in the area besides AZAPO? MR DLAMINI Yes. MR PANDAY What was the party? MR DLAMINI Umkhonto weSizwe. MR PANDAY Now this problem that was being experienced in the area with the whites assaulting the blacks and harassing them, did you discuss this problem with anyone else? MR DLAMINI Blacks used to talk about Nicolson and his brother because they were very much aware that these two were the people who were bringing this other terrible boers to harass. CHAIRPERSON What was his brother's name? MR DLAMINI I know his Zulu name. We referred to him as Disman(?), it's probably from the word Desmond. That was his Zulu name. I'm not sure about his English name, but we referred to him as Disman. MR PANDAY Now do you recall making an affidavit? MR DLAMINI Where? MR PANDAY I'm going to show you, on pages 6 to 9 is an affidavit, is that in your writing firstly? MR DLAMINI ...(no English interpretation) MR PANDAY Sorry I didn't get the translation. MR DLAMINI Yes, I do remember the statement and it is my handwriting. MR PANDAY Yes, now there's a translation of the statement that says ...(intervention) MS MTANGA Chairperson, may I just correct something in the interpretation? He said it's his handwriting at the bottom of the affidavit. MR PANDAY If I may just rephrase the question to him. Mr Dlamini, the handwriting itself, not the signature, did you write the statement out? MR DLAMINI Somebody else was writing the statement for me. MR PANDAY Now the signature that appears on the bottom on the pages, is that your signature? MR DLAMINI Yes, it is me. MR PANDAY And the person that wrote out this affidavit for you, did you trust what they were writing out? MR DLAMINI Yes, I trusted that person because he was far much more educated than myself and we were writing this statement in a hurry because we were late, we were scared that the due date was nearby. I don't know, maybe he left or omitted other important facts because he was in a hurry. CHAIRPERSON When were you in such a hurry, how long ago was this? MR DLAMINI I think it was on the 20th of May, and I thought that if my letter didn't reach the destination, I wouldn't be able to receive forms. CHAIRPERSON Okay, let's get this clear first, the affidavit that you've now been referred to, appears on page 6 to 9 and that was written on the 16th of February this year, a month ago. Can you recollect making that statement a month ago? MR DLAMINI Yes, I do remember even though I've forgotten the month. CHAIRPERSON Ja, and on that date, in what hurry were you, where were you going to go, what was the hurry about? MR DLAMINI I was referring to another statement, the first one which I wrote as I was applying. CHAIRPERSON Ja, the first statement, I presume that's the one appearing from pages 10 to 13 - no that one was also on the 2nd of February 2000. Could you kindly help me to find the statement of the 20th of May, which he referred to? That might have been his application form. And according to his application from that was signed on the 17th of September 1996, so I can't find anything of the 20th of May, except that the 20th of May was I think, the - no, it wasn't the original cut-off date, was it? MS MTANGA It was the 10th of May. CHAIRPERSON Was it the original ... MS MTANGA It was actually the cut-off date for offences, not for applications to filed. CHAIRPERSON Ja, it was the cut-off date and not the deadline for filing applications. MS MTANGA I would think so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well on giving these affidavits, what was the hurry, what were you afraid of, why were you hurried at that stage? MR DLAMINI When I wrote the first statement it was actually the last day when I could submit an application. I received the application form quite late and I could not - and for me to be able to submit it to the prison authorities, I had to write it very quickly in the morning. CHAIRPERSON Right. Now since then you've made three other - ja, I think three other statements, were you in a hurry when you made them? MR DLAMINI No, I was not in any hurry when I wrote the others. CHAIRPERSON Right now, to which statement are you referring Mr Panday? MR PANDAY Mr Dlamini, on page 4 we have a typed version of the affidavit that appears from page 6 to 9, on pages 4 and 5, now Mr Dlamini what I want to refer you to is, on paragraph 4 or paragraph 5 on page 4, you mention that you committed this crime alone, it was your decision to act "Although there were other people when we had discussions about our black people being assaulted. They did not come up with solutions." Now with which black people did you discuss this matter? MR DLAMINI I am not in a position to recall the others, but I do recall Lapiya Mbanjwa and Ntolo, whose first name I've forgotten. MR PANDAY And did these people give you any direction as to what has to be done? MR DLAMINI No, they did not come up with any ideas but they were complaining about the situation between us and the boers, that we were being exploited and harassed by them. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nicolson lived on the farm near Underberg, is that correct? MR DLAMINI That's correct. It's a little distance away from that Underberg. CHAIRPERSON How far is Mslabatini from Underberg, or from the farm of the deceased? MR DLAMINI Are you referring to Mashlatini or Mslabatini? CHAIRPERSON I'm referring to Mslabatini, where Ntolo lived and where Lapiya Mbanjwa lived. MR DLAMINI They lived in Mashlatini, not Mslabatini. That must be a mistake. CHAIRPERSON Oh sorry, Mashlatini. MR DLAMINI Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And where is that? MR DLAMINI It is still under Underberg, but it's a rural area a distance away from the main centre. It is closer to Bolo. CHAIRPERSON Right, thank you. MR PANDAY Mr Dlamini, did you at any stage report to AZAPO about the problems you were experiencing in the area? MR DLAMINI Because the organisation was small, I was very far from the main centres, but I would liaise or I would communicate with MK members who informed me that AZAPO were in a better position to assist us in our situation and we worked very closely with those MK people. And for the reason that I had been in contact, in close contact with the white people and the boers in particular, they felt AZAPO would be a better organisation to assist us in our situation. CHAIRPERSON So is it correct that the MK wouldn't assist you? MR DLAMINI They assisted me in being able to locate the organisation of my choice, which was AZAPO. And because there was conflict between the ANC and the IFP, I could not associate myself with them because I believed that the struggle should be directed against white people and they assisted me in locating AZAPO members. CHAIRPERSON Did you tell them that you intend killing boers? The MK people, did you inform them what your problem was and that you intend killing ...(intervention) MR DLAMINI Yes, I did explain that I wanted to attack the farmers. CHAIRPERSON And did they agree with that or did they say no, they can't help you, they refer you to AZAPO? Or did they assist you? MR DLAMINI They encouraged me greatly, they said I should try by all means to attain my goal. CHAIRPERSON But you never joined them? MR DLAMINI Even though I may have been interested in joining MK because of their ideas, I might have been interested in joining them, but because of this conflict between the two of them and the IFP, I decided against joining them because I strongly believed that black people should not fight amongst themselves. MR PANDAY Now Mr Dlamini, what was the purpose in you stealing money from the Nicolson residence? MR DLAMINI That money was going to be used to acquire firearms and other materials that we could use to further our objective of taking the struggle to the white people. MR PANDAY And you mentioned that you wanted to acquire firearms, was this to place you in a better defensive position or attacking position? MR DLAMINI We would have used them for both offensive and defensive purposes. MR PANDAY Now Mr Dlamini, by the killing of Mr Nicolson, how did - or did you benefit in any way? MR DLAMINI I did not benefit anything, the only benefit perhaps would have been to be regarded highly in my organisation as somebody who has done a great dead. CHAIRPERSON Didn't you benefit about R500, which you took from the house? MR DLAMINI No, I did not benefit personally. CHAIRPERSON Then what happened to that money? MR DLAMINI I was on my way to Pietermaritzburg to contact other members of AZAPO and that is where I was arrested and the money was confiscated. CHAIRPERSON How long after the incident was the money confiscated? MR DLAMINI It was on the following day, the morning of the following day when I was on my way to Pietermaritzburg. CHAIRPERSON Who was the person that you intended handing the money to? MR DLAMINI Although at the time I did not have a specific person in mind, but I was going to meet Harry Gwala, who I would request to assist me in locating AZAPO leaders in that area. And Mr Gwala would also have assisted me in how to proceed because that was the person nearest to me. MR PANDAY Mr Dlamini, did the killing of Mr Nicolson send any message through to the black people? INTERPRETER Please repeat the question. MR PANDAY Did the killing of Mr Nicolson, send any message across to the black people in the area? MR DLAMINI I was the one person sending a message. My aim was to encourage others to follow my example, so that they further the struggle for us to be able to be restored to our land. MR PANDAY Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY CHAIRPERSON How old was Mr Nicolson? MR DLAMINI I think he was about 75. CHAIRPERSON So it was an old man? MR DLAMINI Yes, he was old. CHAIRPERSON And his wife? MR DLAMINI I do not know, I cannot estimate. CHAIRPERSON Well you didn't tell us whether you want amnesty for your attack on the wife. Did you attack her? How did you attack Mr Nicolson? INTERPRETER Please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON You didn't give us any details of how you attacked Mr Nicolson or his wife. Did you attack Mrs Nicolson? MR DLAMINI No, we believed in fighting other men, but if a female did get injured, that would be a mistake. It was unintentional. CHAIRPERSON Did you injure her? MR DLAMINI Yes, she was injured but that was more of scarring her to show me where the money was kept. It was not exactly really my aim to harm her. CHAIRPERSON Was it your aim to kill Mr Nicolson, or did you only want to scare him? MR DLAMINI It was my aim to kill him because it was part of the struggle, to kill the farmers. CHAIRPERSON Well we've heard that you've intended to go and kill him, but tell us how it really happened. Was he killed in his house, was he killed in the veld, what happened? How did you kill him? MR DLAMINI He was killed inside his house, in the kitchen. CHAIRPERSON Mr Panday, could you kindly lead the witness in this respect, how did he enter the house, did he enter the house, did he break into the house, what happened? We've got no idea. FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY As Mr Chairman pleases. Mr Dlamini, when you decided to kill Mr Nicolson, you obviously had a plan in your mind, now we want for you to explain to the Committee as to how you went about the killing of Mr Nicolson. From how you entered the house to the type of weapon you used in killing Mr Nicolson. So let's start where you arrived at the house. How did you gain entry into the Nicolson home? MR DLAMINI Mr Nicolson was outside his farm, he was near the sheep kraal, thereafter he went inside the house and I followed him from a distance. MR PANDAY When he went inside the house, did you follow behind him or did you gain access through some other means? MR DLAMINI No, I followed him to a point outside the house and I looked around as to how I could gain entry and found a window through which I entered. MR PANDAY Right, you found a window. Now this window, did you break the window or you forced open the window or was the window open? MR DLAMINI The window was slightly open and I pulled it further and then gained entry. MR PANDAY And do you know into which room this window led? MR DLAMINI It was the window into the kitchen. MR PANDAY Now after you had entered this kitchen, was there anyone in the kitchen? MR DLAMINI No, there was no-one in the kitchen and I just waited there. MR PANDAY So you just waited. Do you recall for approximately how long you waited in the kitchen? MR DLAMINI I think I was there for about 10 minutes. MR PANDAY After waiting 10 minutes in the kitchen, who came first into the kitchen, was it Mr Nicolson or his wife? MR DLAMINI They were watching TV and there were pots cooking on the stove, so I assumed that somebody will come to check on those pots and that is why I waited there. MR PANDAY Who eventually came? MR DLAMINI It was Mr Nicolson. MR PANDAY Right now when Mr Nicolson arrived in the kitchen, did he see you or did you surprise him? MR DLAMINI He did not see me when he entered the kitchen, he only saw me when I announced myself and he asked me what I wanted and I just stabbed him. MR PANDAY Okay, before you stabbed him were you hiding in any particular place in the kitchen? MR DLAMINI Yes, I was hiding. MR PANDAY Whereabout? MR DLAMINI I was leaning behind the door and when he entered the room he just entered without noticing me. I surprised him by announcing my presence. MR PANDAY Now after announcing your presence, did you immediately stab him or was there any conversation that transpired? MR DLAMINI When I announced my presence he started screaming, enquiring what I was doing there and he tried to grab hold of my weapon and at that time I started stabbing him. MR PANDAY Now the weapon you had, what sort of weapon was it? MR DLAMINI It was a sharp iron. It was a long steel iron rod. MR PANDAY And where did you get this long steel iron rod from? MR DLAMINI It was something that I had left with a certain gentleman whom I knew on that farm. MR PANDAY What was the name of this gentleman? MR DLAMINI I cannot recall his first name, but his surname was Mbanjwa. I'm not certain, it could be either Mbanjwa or Mgune. MR PANDAY When you surprised Mr ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I don't follow now. You left it with a certain gentleman on the farm, Mr Mbanjwa, is that correct? MR DLAMINI I'm a little confused with regards to the surname, it could be either Mbanjwa or Mgune. CHAIRPERSON And did you leave it with them before you killed Mr Nicolson or after you killed him? MR DLAMINI It was before Mr Nicolson was killed. I cannot really specify why I left that iron rod with him, but I had ...(indistinct) it there. CHAIRPERSON Were you living on the farm? MR DLAMINI No, I was working in a neighbouring farm. MR PANDAY Now when you went to kill Mr Nicolson, do you recall when you collected this iron rod? MR DLAMINI I collected it at about 5p.m. MR PANDAY From the person you'd left it with? MR DLAMINI Yes, that's correct. MR PANDAY Now when Mr Nicolson saw you or when you surprised Mr Nicolson, did any conversation transpire between the two of you? MR DLAMINI No, except for the fact that he screamed and he wanted to know what I was doing in his home, and I did not respond to that. MR PANDAY And when did you stab him, immediately or did you wait a while first before you stabbed him? MR DLAMINI I stabbed him immediately when he was trying to ask me those questions and he was screaming. MR PANDAY Which part of his body did you stab him on? MR DLAMINI Along the chest. MR PANDAY And do you recall approximately how many times you stabbed him? MR DLAMINI I think about twice. MR PANDAY And did you leave his body in the kitchen after you had stabbed him? MR DLAMINI I did not leave him in the kitchen. After I had stabbed him I hurried to his wife so that she would not get a chance perhaps to get a weapon or firearm. Mr Nicolson followed me and I grabbed his wife and started running away with her. MR PANDAY When you say running away with his wife, did you leave the property or were you still on the premises? Did you leave the premises or were you still in the premises? MR DLAMINI It was inside the house, it was around the different rooms in the house. Mr Nicolson was after me, but he also wanted to go towards the phone but he fell along the way and could not reach either me or the phone. MR PANDAY Now after you had grabbed Mr Nicolson's wife, did you have any conversation with her? MR DLAMINI The wife enquired what happened, what was the problem and I said she should enquire from her husband. ADV SIGODI Sorry, just to come in there. Did the Nicolson's know you personally? MR DLAMINI Yes, they did. ADV SIGODI How did they know you? MR DLAMINI They knew me from around the farms because I was working in the neighbouring area and we would visit on weekends. ADV SIGODI Had you worked for them before? MR DLAMINI No, not for them, I used to work for his brother. ADV SIGODI Where? MR DLAMINI It was at a neighbouring farm, at Mr Disman's place, but by that time I had stopped working for that person. ADV SIGODI Thanks. Continue, Mr Panday. MR PANDAY Now after you grabbed Mrs Nicolson, you said that she wanted to know what is happening and you asked her to question her husband, did you do anything to Mrs Nicolson? MR DLAMINI No, I just asked her to open the safe for me. MR PANDAY And did you use force on her or did you threaten her in any way? MR DLAMINI Yes, I did use force to scare her into doing what I was asking. MR PANDAY What sort of force did you use on her? MR DLAMINI I threatened her with the instrument that I had and stabbed her on the hand. MR PANDAY Was that the only sort of force or assault you used on her? MR DLAMINI Yes. MR PANDAY And did she eventually give you any money? MR DLAMINI Yes, she did give me some money, about R5-600. MR PANDAY And did you take anything else from the property? MR DLAMINI No, I did not. MR PANDAY And what did you do with Mrs Nicolson after you had finished robbing the place of the money? MR DLAMINI I took her and tried to lock her in a bedroom but I could not find the key, so I just left her there and fled. MR PANDAY You didn't assault her after taking the money? MR DLAMINI No, I did not. MR PANDAY And what was the purpose of taking the money from the property? MR DLAMINI It was my aim to secure firearms, I thought that I could use the money to buy a firearm so that I would use it when I go on attacks. MR PANDAY Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY CHAIRPERSON You only stabbed at Mrs Nicolson once and you wounded her in the hand, is that correct? MR DLAMINI That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Didn't you stab twice at her and also inflicted a wound in her shoulder? MR DLAMINI When I stabbed her on the hand she tried to grab the iron rod and that was - and then at that time her hand went towards her shoulder. I saw her blouse becoming red and I assumed that she had not been injured but maybe perhaps blood has spilt onto her shirt on her shoulder. CHAIRPERSON Anything further? MR PANDAY Nothing, Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Dlamini, how much money did you obtain from the farm of Mr Nicolson? MR DLAMINI About R600. MS MTANGA In your application on page 3, you were asked did you benefit in any way, financially or otherwise. MR DLAMINI I did not get any other benefit. MS MTANGA At the time you were arrested, do you remember how much money the police recovered from you? MR DLAMINI I do not know because at the time I had not even counted it, I just heard in Court that it was about R600. MS MTANGA Where were you arrested, Mr Dlamini? MR DLAMINI In town, in Underberg. MS MTANGA If you turn to page 17 of your application, on the police document there, SAP62, paragraph (c), it is indicated there that the amount of money that you obtained from the farm was R550 and only R255 was recovered from you the following day. Can you tell this Committee what happened to the rest of the money? MR DLAMINI I do not know about that because when they arrested me I had not gone anywhere. I cannot be certain of the amounts because I myself was informed by the police of the amount that they recovered. I had not had an opportunity to sit down and count the money. MS MTANGA When I asked you how much money you obtained from the farm, you said you obtained about R600, am I correct? MR DLAMINI Yes, I did say that. That was the information I received from the police. MS MTANGA At the time you were at the farm didn't you count the money that you had obtained? MR DLAMINI No, I did not count it, I thought that I would count it when I was far away from the scene of the crime. MS MTANGA So would you say Mrs Nicolson lied to the Court when she said she gave you R550 in cash? MR DLAMINI I do not know, she must be sure of the amount because she's the person who gave it to me. MS MTANGA About your AZAPO membership, how many people in the Underberg area were AZAPO members, that you knew of? MR DLAMINI There was no-one who belonged to AZAPO. Even those who were there did not do so in the open because even in our discussions there were people who used to complain about the treatment that we received from the boers, but I did not enquire from them the political membership that they had. MS MTANGA If people did not disclose their AZAPO membership in Underberg, how were you in contact with AZAPO member? You yourself outside Underberg. MR DLAMINI Had they ...(intervention) MS MTANGA Mr Dlamini, you're not answering my question. I'm asking you, how were you as Mr Dlamini, as a mamber of AZAPO, how were you in contact with the AZAPO that you were a member of? MR DLAMINI It was the ANC people who I was in contact with. Because of the reason that I did not have money, it was difficult for me to contact AZAPO members, but I would communicate with MK people on my desire to meet AZAPO comrades. MS MTANGA Where were these AZAPO comrades that you would want to contact? MR DLAMINI It was Patrick Mkhize who was in Durban. That was the person I wished to see, but it's just that we were a distance apart. MS MTANGA During the time before this incident and after this incident, is there any AZAPO member that you came into contact with? MR DLAMINI Yes, although I do not know his address, it was somebody I had contacted through ANC members and that person was found at an area called Ncgumeni. He came to see me and we discussed very briefly because he seemed to be in a hurry and I did not pursue the matter at the time because I felt I would see him some other time through the ANC. MS MTANGA Mr Dlamini, can you tell this Committee what AZAPO means? MR DLAMINI Although I did not have full information on that organisation, but I admired their philosophy that they were fighting for the restoration of Africa to Africans, but unfortunately I did not get to meet and sit with them, discuss issues with them at length. MS MTANGA Mr Dlamini, where do you get that AZAPO was fighting for restoration of Africa to Africans? MR DLAMINI I got that from ANC comrades because I enquired from them what the AZAPO stand was on the liberation of African people, and they explained that AZAPO's stand was that the land should be restored to Africans and not shared with white people, and that was what I also felt was correct. MS MTANGA In the Underberg area, was there any person who knew about your AZAPO membership? Was there a person who knew about your membership? MR DLAMINI I kept my affiliation very secret because if you were involved in politics, the boers would beat you very badly, even to the point of driving you away from the area because of the influence you would have on the other people. I thought that if my membership was known, I would also be placed in that situation where I would be harassed. CHAIRPERSON Now I don't understand it, you tell us the boers would have chased you away, but you went into a house, killed the man, confronted his wife whom you've told us they knew you, you were working on the next-door farm, what did you think, wouldn't they tell the people "listen, there's the murderer"? Wouldn't she tell the people and wouldn't they chase you away then? MR DLAMINI At that time I knew and I was prepared for that, that she was going to inform others on what I had done, so that the people would also know the stand that I had taken, and at that time I thought that they would not be able to get hold of me because I was then on my way to the organisation. And for her to disclose that information, it would have encouraged others to follow in my footsteps and join AZAPO. ADV BOSMAN I am a little confused. You said that you were a supporter of AZAPO, now when did you become a member? You have now started to speak of your membership. MR DLAMINI I was a supporter. Although I wished to join formally, there were no political organisations in my area and even if there were that existed, they operated covertly. If I had not been arrested, I am certain that I would have joined or even established a branch in Underberg. ADV BOSMAN So you were not a member then. I think you must speak of you being a supporter and not a member, it's very confusing. MR DLAMINI Yes. MS MTANGA Mr Dlamini, I have a problem with your evidence in that it appears here that you carried out this offence of killing Mr Nicolson and robbing their money without having even had - you say you did all of this for the AZAPO, your organisation, but it appears to me, according to your evidence now, that you had not had contact with AZAPO on the day of this offence, you were still going to make contact with them and hence you were taking the money to the organisation. Am I correct to say this? MR DLAMINI Yes, at the time I was not a member, I was just a follower, a supporter. The interest was there because I wanted to launch attacks on boers and bring about the restoration of our land. I grew up under the hardship of boers and I also didn't have money to go and meet other AZAPO members in their offices, that is why it looked like I wasn't a member or a supporter. But I was on my way, that is why I was going to them, I wanted to inform them what I had just done. MS MTANGA If that is the case, then you didn't get an authority from AZAPO to carry out this offence, that is to kill Mr Nicolson and rob their money? What do you say to this? MR DLAMINI Yes, I didn't get any authority from AZAPO, but I knew that it was their way that we should attack boers and take their firearms and money to use to pursue our liberation. MS MTANGA How did you know that it was their way that you should people and get firearms, when you were not in contact with them? MR DLAMINI MK members or Umkhonto weSizwe members told me so and as soon as they told me this, I realised that this was the way. And they also encouraged me to pursue my interests, and I was encouraged and I was brave that whatever I was about to do was going to be successful. MS MTANGA Mr Dlamini, I put it to you that it is a bunch of lies that you were ever a member of AZAPO and that you committed this offence ...(intervention) MR PANDAY Sorry Mr Chairman, before we go any further, if my learned friend could use the word "supporter". CHAIRPERSON Ja, he admits that, or he stated that he wasn't a member. MS MTANGA I put to you, it is a bunch of lies that you carried out this offence as a supporter of AZAPO and that you therefore carried it out to further the political struggle of AZAPO. What do you say to this? MR DLAMINI I had the interest and aim. If I wasn't arrested I was going to pursue my interests. I did this because I was interested in AZAPO and also for the fact that there was an organisation in place which supported that idea. MS MTANGA In your affidavit on page 4, paragraph 5, you refer to a person by the name of Lapiya Mbanjwa of Mslabatini, can you tell this Committee how well do you know Lapiya Mbanjwa and where do you know him from. MR DLAMINI I used to work with Lapiya Mbanjwa under a certain farmer called Ronnie, and his nickname was Makajoni. That is where I know Lapiya. MS MTANGA Did Lapiya know Mr Nicolson? MR DLAMINI Yes, he knew him. MS MTANGA Would you say he knew about the allegations that you made about Mr Nicolson here today? That he ill-treated black people and he was an AWB member and he influenced other white people in the area to ill-treat black people? MR DLAMINI Yes, I will say he knows how the boers used to ill-treat blacks in the area, but I don't know if he knows that Mr Nicolson was a member of AWB. We were working together, but we never conversed to that extent. MS MTANGA In the same paragraph, that is paragraph 5, you stated that "Although there were other people when you had discussions about our black people being assaulted, they did not come up with a solution, to me they appeared to be afraid. These were one, Mtoli of Emakuzeni, in the locality of Mslabatini and Lapiya Mbanjwa of Mslabatini and others." So if you say there were such discussions or if you agree with what this paragraph is saying, there were discussions about the assaults that were being carried out on black people, am I correct? You did discuss the assaults with Lapiya and Mtoli and other people. MR DLAMINI Yes, we used to talk in general about those things, more especially about the treatment we received from the boers. And also we used to discuss about solutions, but then no-one ever suggested any solution. Even though I had an idea which was my solution, but I never voiced that out to them, we used to just talk in general about the treatment we received. MS MTANGA My understanding of your evidence today is that the cause of these assaults and ill-treatment was the AWB, or the AWB people were the people who were behind these assaults on you and that Mr Nicolson was the leader of the AWB in the area. If that is the case and taking into account also the evidence that you gave here that it was well known - it was a common experience in Underberg, that blacks would be ill-treated by these AWB people, would I be correct to assume that - to expect Mr Lapiya to know about the AWB assaults on you? And further, that Mr Nicolson was an AWB person and a leader of the AWB in the area. MR PANDAY Sorry, Mr Chairman, I stand to be corrected but I don't recall him saying that Mr Nicolson was the leader of the AWB, it was more his association with the AWB. MS MTANGA If you read the affidavit, page 4, paragraph 2, it's stated that he was a leader of the AWB. MR DLAMINI Yes, I took him as a leader of the AWB, because AWB used to frequent him and I will say they were doing these things under his direction. And also, some boers used to say so, that Mr Nicolson was the one who was giving them those instructions to ill-treat blacks. CHAIRPERSON Who were the whites that gave you that information, that Nicolson was the one who instructed them to ill-treat the blacks? MR DLAMINI They were contractors which used to come in the area. I approached him because I was looking for a job. CHAIRPERSON Who was this contractor? Where could we get hold of him? MR DLAMINI The first one was under the supervision of Mr Barnett. Mr Barnett together with other whites, they came and they've spoken to him and later we will realise our salary is being decreased and when we enquired about this we were told that Mr Nicolson told them to reduce the salaries. And also that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Now these contractors - let's stand still at the contractor, I only want to have the name of this contractor and you said it was Mr Bennet, is that correct? MR DLAMINI Yes, the first contractor was Mr Barnett. CHAIRPERSON Okay, was it Barnard? MR DLAMINI Barnard, ja. CHAIRPERSON Barnard. And what kind of work did he do? MR DLAMINI He was building a hospital in Underberg. CHAIRPERSON So he was a builder there? MR DLAMINI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And he told you, am I correct, that Mr Nicolson instructed him that your salary should be reduced? MR DLAMINI Even though he didn't say it was Mr Nicolson, but since Mr Nicolson came and spoke to Mr Barnard, we knew when Mr Barnard told us he had been instructed to reduce our salaries, so we knew that it was Mr Nicolson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. So did Mr Barnard work for Mr Nicolson? How could he instruct Mr Barnard to reduce the salary of workers working for him, that's for Mr Barnard? What authority did Nicolson have to instruct Barnard? MR DLAMINI ...(no English interpretation) CHAIRPERSON Could we have the translation please. MR DLAMINI I think Mr Barnard was afraid that he could lose his contract if he didn't obey Mr Nicolson's order. CHAIRPERSON I see. Would this perhaps be an appropriate time to adjourn, or do you wish to carry on? I don't think we'll be able to finish today, it doesn't look like it. MR PANDAY This would be an appropriate time, Mr Chairman. I'm just checking my diary for tomorrow, just to advise what time we can kick off tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON Well we'll advise you what time we're starting. MR PANDAY Well, we try and strike the balance, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON We're starting at 9 o'clock, Sir. MR PANDAY That just gives me enough time to phone the Courts and just tell them that I'm tied up here, to not wait for me. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We're adjourning until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. MS MTANGA Chairperson, can I? Mr Nicolson is the son of the late Mr Nicolson, he would like to raise his concern about him not being able to attend tomorrow. MR NICOLSON Is it possible for me to make a short statement to the Commission, Mr Chairman, before we adjourn? I won't be long. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it's sort of unusual because we wouldn't have the full story, but you've heard his story ... END OF SIDE A OF TAPE START OF SIDE B OF TAPE CHAIRPERSON Could we have a five minute adjournment and then perhaps Ms Mtanga you could consult with him and let's have his evidence and see how far we could get. Could you ask the other staff whether they'll be prepared to sit, say until half past four. MS MTANGA That will be fine, Chairperson, but I don't think he'll be long. I have spoken to him earlier on, he won't be long. CHAIRPERSON And would he be in a position to give it straight away? MS MTANGA Let me just check with him now. He's prepared to go ahead now, Chairperson, without us adjourning. CHAIRPERSON Okay, we'll take a very short adjournment for five minutes and then we'll proceed with Mr Nicolson. We'll allow the interpreters to have a break and get out of those cubicles and then we can proceed again. MR NICOLSON Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CROSS-EXAMINATION OF MR DLAMINI BY MS MTANGA STANDS DOWN FOR MR NICOLSON TO GIVE EVIDENCE ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nicolson, could you kindly rise. DEREK EDWARD BETRAM NICOLSON (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Nicolson, before we start I have something that wasn't clear to me, could you perhaps help us. Who is Ronnie? MR NICOLSON Ronnie would most probably be Ronnie Brey of the farm Lamington, because I know that his Zulu name was Makaton. CHAIRPERSON Of the farm Lamington? MR NICOLSON Correct. CHAIRPERSON And who would be Michael? MR NICOLSON I've no idea who Michael is. CHAIRPERSON Right, thank you. And just before the adjournment we've heard about a Barnard, do you know anything about him? MR NICOLSON It's not Mr Barnard, it's Mr Dave Barnett, who runs a construction firm in the Underberg district and is still resident in the area. CHAIRPERSON Yes, kindly proceed. Would you lead the witness please. EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Nicolson, will you please give your full names for the record. MR NICOLSON Derek Edward Betram Nicolson. MS MTANGA Can you please tell this Committee how you are related to the late Mr Nicolson and Mrs Anna Nicolson. MR NICOLSON I am the son of the late Mr Nicolson. MS MTANGA Did you live with Mr Nicolson? MR NICOLSON I lived in the same homestead as Mr Nicolson. MS MTANGA You have heard the evidence of the applicant that your father was an AWB member and a leader, what is your view about this? MR NICOLSON This is totally incorrect, I would have been aware if he was an AWB member because I lived in the same home as him and grew up in the same home. I am absolutely sure that he was a member of the United Party and never changed his political affiliation. MS MTANGA You heard that there were meetings that were at times held at Mr Nicolson's home by the AWB, do you know of these meetings? MR NICOLSON I'm totally unaware of any meetings held by the AWB in that homestead. MS MTANGA Are you aware of any AWB meetings being held in the Underberg area? MR NICOLSON I'm totally unaware of any AWB meetings or AWB members in the Underberg area. MS MTANGA Mr Nicolson, do you know the applicant, Mr Dlamini? MR NICOLSON No, I don't know the applicant. MS MTANGA Did your family know the applicant? MR NICOLSON No, if my family had known the applicant, my mother would have immediately identified him to the police and we would have known who we were looking for. MS MTANGA What was the relationship between your father and Ronnie, that the applicant has been referring to? MR NICOLSON No relationship at all, he was a distant neighbour, about three farms away. MS MTANGA Were they not probably members of the same party, the United Party? MR NICOLSON I'm unaware of Ronnie Brey's political affiliations. MS MTANGA Is there anything else you'd like to say about this application, about the applicant and this application? MR NICOLSON Yes, I would like it to be recorded before the Amnesty Committee, that we have forgiven Mr Dlamini for the crime he has committed against us as a family, because we are Christian folk and we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and we are called as Christians to forgive others for the offences they commit against us. I'd also like to state that my father was very well disposed towards the black people in our area, as could be confirmed by two of my farm labourers, Manduna and his relative who are sitting in this hearing today. He helped many black pensioners obtain their pensions and was always willing to assist them. I'd like also to state that I'm unaware of him attending any meetings in the Underberg Hotel. And also to reiterate that this man was a total stranger to my father. I'm also convinced, having read his submission, that it is a pack of lies and that there was no political motive to this crime at all. I'm convinced that he entered my father's home to rob my mother and father and when confronted by my father he murdered him and he then proceeded to stab and rob my mother. I therefore must state on behalf of my family that we cannot support this application because it is totally untruthful. Whilst we do forgive the applicant for the crime he committed, we as a family believe that when one murders somebody, one must pay the price. That is all I have to say before the Committee. MS MTANGA One last question, Mr Nicolson. Were you aware, that is in 1991, of political activism by AZAPO or MK people in the area of Underberg? Were you aware of such activities? MR NICOLSON I was totally unaware of any activities in the area at this time. I was aware of activities in the Transkei area and the Eastern Cape area, but totally unaware of any activities in the Underberg area. MS MTANGA Were you aware of incidents where farm labourers were assaulted by the farmers? MR NICOLSON I'm sure, as in any area, there were instances that took place, but I'm unaware of them and unable to state where they actually took place. And I must reiterate that they did not take place on our property, we never purposely tortured or beat anybody on our property. MS MTANGA I have no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Where were you on the day of the incident? MR NICOLSON I was at a meeting, a committee meeting at the Underberg school, which is 18 kilometres away from the farm. CHAIRPERSON At what time of the day did this happen, approximately? MR NICOLSON It must have been about half past six/seven in the evening. CHAIRPERSON And your mother couldn't identify the attacker or the perpetrator at that stage? MR NICOLSON I think if she had have known him, she would have immediately have alerted the police as to his identity, but at that time she could only describe his appearance but she did not know his name or where he worked, and I don't think she'd ever seen him before. CHAIRPERSON There was evidence that his weapon was left with a worker on the farm, I think it was Mr Mbanjwa, do you know Mr Mbanjwa? MR NICOLSON I don't know of any Mr Mbanjwa that the weapon might have been left with, he might have left it with some of our labourers in the compound because he certainly was a stranger on our property. CHAIRPERSON Were there any labourers staying on the farm except for those staying in the compound? MR NICOLSON Yes, we have other staff members who are resident in their particular homesteads, of which there are about, I think, six homesteads on the farm. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps he could clear up whether he left it at a homestead or where he left it. Could you perhaps find out where he left this weapon of his? MR PANDAY Mr Dlamini, you mentioned in your evidence-in-chief that you had left the weapon with either a Mr Mbanjwa or a Mr Mgwena, I'm not too sure of the names, now these people that you left the weapon with, were they on the Nicolson farm or on the farms around the Nicolson farm? Did they live on the farm at the Nicolsons or around the Nicolson farm? MR DLAMINI They were residing in the compound, Nicolson's compound. MR PANDAY Would you be able to know which compound or which area this compound was in, which direction? CHAIRPERSON Well I think there would only be one compound on a farm, usually that's the situation. You don't know any, or you can't recollect ...(intervention) MR NICOLSON It was the only one compound. CHAIRPERSON You can't recollect people with those names working for you at that stage? MR NICOLSON I have people belonging to the Mguni clan and the Mbanjwa clan and the Dlamini clan, working for me on my property. They are the dominant clans that have been on the farm for many, many years. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything you would like to draw our attention to? MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson. On the judgment, page 29, that's from paragraph 20 - third paragraph, line 21. It says here "According to him (that is according to the applicant) he visited one Mazanza on the farm of the deceased on the day in question and he had a conversation with Mazanza, who offered him dagga to smoke." I would like to ask if my witness knows this Mazanza. MR NICOLSON These people who work for us tend to give many different names. That name doesn't ring a bell. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY Yes please. Mr Nicolson, you mentioned that the that people work on your farm tend to give many names, so do you accept the possibility that the person the applicant refers to, he may have known him by another name, save for the name that you know him at? MR NICOLSON Absolutely. MR PANDAY Mr Nicolson, you mention that your father was not an AWB member, let's accept that for the time being. Now do you accept that your father may very well have associated with people that were AWB members? MR NICOLSON No, I wouldn't accept that at all. MR PANDAY Why do you say that, Mr Nicolson? MR NICOLSON Because of the fact that my father's political beliefs were very much of promoting Africans into Parliament, and these were stated quite openly at public meetings. He believed in taking hands and working together. These are not the beliefs of the AWB. MR PANDAY Mr Nicolson, do you accept that not all of the farmers were as open-minded as your father? MR NICOLSON I accept that, not everybody is as open-minded as my father was. MR PANDAY Do you also accept that a few members of the white community in the area and/or alternatively, farmers, belonged to the AWB? MR NICOLSON I'd have to say it is very unbelievable, I couldn't think of anybody in the area who would belong to the AWB. MR PANDAY But can you say that for certain? MR NICOLSON I think I can say that with great certainty. MR PANDAY Mr Nicolson, would you accept that the applicant may have very well perceived people in the area to be AWB members, based on the ill-treatment they may have received, or others may have received from these persons? MR NICOLSON That would be the applicant's perception of farmers in the area. No doubt he might have been stirred up politically to believe that, but it would not be my perception. MR PANDAY So you do accept that in his political frame of mind this was the impression created and he was obviously acting on this impression? MR NICOLSON No, I can't read the applicant's mind or his state of mind, so I cannot make a statement on that matter. MR PANDAY Now Mr Nicolson, you continuously go on to say you are not aware of persons being AWB in the area, but that itself does not confirm that there were AWB persons in the area. MR NICOLSON I'd like to say to you that the AWB is a very active and open organisation, Mr Eugene Terre'blanche has fallen off his horse on a number of occasions in public. I'm sure if the AWB were operating in our area, they would have been very visible. MR PANDAY And you mentioned that your family did not know the applicant, but at the same time you can't be sure that the applicant was not known, at the very least, to your father. MR NICOLSON My father being dead, I cannot say that he was not known to my father or my father did not meet him shortly before his death. MR PANDAY Mr Nicolson, to put it to you finally, if in the applicant's mind he believed there to be a political problem in the area, in that there were AWB members that actually ill-treat, harass and oppress the blacks and he carried out this act on that belief, would you then accept that in his frame of mind that was a justified political act? MR NICOLSON First of all I must state as a Christian, I cannot condone any act of murder or taking of another person's life, whether political or just plain criminal. But answering your question, I do not know what the applicant's state of mind was or what was going on amongst the black people in the area politically, I was unaware of it, so I cannot really answer that question for you. MR PANDAY Finally Mr Nicolson, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON On that basis, would there be any possible ground, and I want you to frame it very widely, that anybody could form a reasonable perception that your father, even if he wasn't a leader of the AWB, that he in some way or other associated with them or their policies? MR NICOLSON I don't see how anybody could possibly form that perception. MR PANDAY Mr Nicolson, if I may just phrase it a bit differently, just taking off of the question Mr Chairman has put to you, do you accept that in the are there were farmers that ill-treated the workers? MR NICOLSON I accept that because there are farmers in every area who mistreat their workers. MR PANDAY Now do you accept further that farmers per se as their career, would obviously collude at times to either discuss various issues, not necessarily political issues? MR NICOLSON There were always meetings of the Underberg Farmers Association, which is a farmers organisation which discussed matters pertaining to farmers. MR PANDAY Now would your father attend such meetings? MR NICOLSON He hardly ever attended them because he was not in a position of authority there, his brother Desmond was more in a position of authority in the Underberg Farmers Association. MR PANDAY I accept that he may not have been in a position of authority, but would he be at time seen at this meeting, not necessarily frequently, but he would have at some time attended these meetings? MR NICOLSON He would have at some time attended those meetings, but as the applicant states these meetings took place in our farmhouse, well the Underberg Farmers Association always meets at the farmers' hall, never in our farmhouse or at the Underberg Hotel. MR PANDAY And was there any meeting that took place where there was a congregation of known white farmers at your premises, not necessarily for farmers meetings, but for a very ...(indistinct) social gathering or any other particular gathering? MR NICOLSON I'm totally unaware of such a meeting. CHAIRPERSON Did they sometimes attend for instance, your father's birthday, or people coming visiting you? MR NICOLSON Well I should I think that these are common gatherings which take place at every farmstead, but there was never any organised political meetings as such. MR PANDAY Right, thank you Mr Nicolson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY ADV SIGODI Mr Nicolson, how old was your father when he was killed? MR NICOLSON He was 76 years old. ADV SIGODI Is your mother still alive? MR NICOLSON Yes, she's still alive and she still resides in the same farmhouse. ADV SIGODI Thanks. CHAIRPERSON And she was about 71? MR NICOLSON I think she would have been round about 73, but I could be incorrect. CHAIRPERSON Anybody else wanting to ...? ADV BOSMAN May I just ask, Mr Nicolson, was your father a frail person or was he a strong healthy man? MR NICOLSON My father was remarkably fit for his age. ADV SIGODI Also, was it just the two of them staying on that farm or were there other people staying with them? In the actual house. MR NICOLSON It was just the two of them staying in there at the time. CHAIRPERSON Where did you stay? MR NICOLSON I was staying with my wife in a homestead which is about 800 metres away. I was married in 1981. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Anybody else who wants to pose a question? Thank you, Mr Nicolson, thank you for attending and taking the trouble to be here and thank you for giving evidence in this case and for the attitude of forgiving the applicant although you're not supporting his application. MR NICOLSON Thank you, Mr Chairman. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We'll now adjourn until tomorrow morning 9 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS