amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-03-30 PRETORIA 3 FREDERICK JOHANNES PIENAAR AM5014/97 ABDUCTION OF CHRIS MOSIANE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54120&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200330pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning everybody. Today we are hearing the matter of the abduction of Mr Chris Mosiane. My name for the record is Motata, from the TPD. On my left I have Mr Malan from Johannesburg and on my right I have Adv Sandi from East London. I would request the legal representatives who are involved in this matter, to place their names on record. I'll start from my left. MR PRINSLOO As it pleases, Mr Chairman. Harry Prinsloo on behalf of the applicants, Pienaar and Deetlefs. MS VAN DER WALT Louis van DER Walt, Chairperson, for Mr S J Visser and Mr H W van Zweel. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Richard. MR RICHARD I apologise, Chairperson. My name is Tony Richard, Johannesburg, I represent Chris Mosiane. ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Honourable Chairperson. My name is Steenkamp, I will be the Evidence Leader. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Are we ready to commence? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, I'm calling the first applicant, Mr Pienaar. He is Afrikaans-speaking, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I'll ask Mr Malan to administer the oath. FREDERICK JOHANNES PIENAAR (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Malan. Mr Prinsloo. EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, you are an applicant in this applicant in the matter of the abduction of Mr Mosiane. MR PIENAAR That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And within the prescribed time you handed up an application to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, as it appears in the bundle from page 30, is that correct? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And the facts are explained in your application, do you confirm the contents thereof? MR PIENAAR Yes, I do. MR PRINSLOO As well as the political background which is given? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And previously with other applications, Annexure A which explains the background of the South African Police. MR PIENAAR That's correct. MR PRINSLOO And do you ask that this be incorporated into your application? MR PIENAAR Yes, I do. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, you on instruction of Brig Visser, following up on information from your fellow applicant, Mr Deetlefs, went to Swaziland and there you abducted the victim, Mr Mosiane and three others. MR PIENAAR Chairperson, I actually went on instruction of Mr Deetlefs and he and Colonel - I met Colonel Visser and Mr Deetlefs at the border post and then we went to Swaziland. MR PRINSLOO And from there you went to this specific police station? MR PIENAAR That is correct, that is the Bunja Police Station. MR PRINSLOO And there these four persons were detained. MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And with the breaking out of these persons, was any violence used against the Swazi Police? MR PIENAAR No, no force was used. MR PRINSLOO And after you had removed these four persons from the police station, did you place Mr Mosiane in your vehicle along with another person? MR PIENAAR That is correct, Chairperson. I think the other person was James, I'm not entirely certain. Mr Mosiane was with someone else in our vehicle, with me and Mr Deetlefs. We did find Mr Mosiane with leg-irons at the police station and we took him away with the leg-irons. We also attached a rope to his neck and attached it to the vehicle's handbrake, in order to prevent him from escaping because we were driving through a forest. We crossed into the RSA, crossing over a fence, the border fence. MR PRINSLOO So you left Swaziland illegally without going through the border post? MR PIENAAR We went into Swaziland through the border post and we came out not using the border post, that's correct Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And while Mr Mosiane was in the vehicle and the other person, was he told that he would be shot if he did not cooperate, or anything to that effect? MR PIENAAR That is entirely possible, yes. MR PRINSLOO And Mr Deetlefs said that he would kill him and drop him right there next to the road. MR PIENAAR That is possible, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And was Mr Mosiane then taken to Piet Retief Police Station? MR PIENAAR Yes, he was taken to Piet Retief Station, where later he was detained under Section 29. MR PRINSLOO As well as the other person? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO What happened to Mr Mosiane afterwards? MR PIENAAR After his detention in Piet Retief he was taken away by head office. I don't know where else he was detained, but he later ended up at Vlakplaas, where he worked in C1, under Col de Kock. MR PRINSLOO Did you at any stage take him to a place in the East Rand? MR PIENAAR Yes, Chairperson. I think it was the following day after we broke them out of Swaziland, Mr Mosiane took myself and Mr Deetlefs to Springs, where he allegedly would have pointed out a weapons cache point. The first afternoon he could not find the place, but the following morning he pointed out the place to us, where the dead letter box had been established, allegedly by Mr Klaas de Jongh and someone by the name of Pastoors. We took the weapons, it included components for two vehicle bombs which were meant for a military operation in Boksburg and another one in Springs itself. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, under these circumstances you apply for amnesty for abduction, that you had removed Mr Mosiane against his will and detained him against his will, is that correct? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO For unlawful detention. MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And that you had also intimidated him, which might form part of the assault. MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Did you do this for any personal gain? MR PIENAAR No, not at all. MR PRINSLOO Did you do this out of malice? MR PIENAAR No, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Did you do this in the interest of the South African Police and the government, who you served at that stage? MR PIENAAR Yes, I did. MR PRINSLOO And it has slipped my mind now, you also apply that you had entered the Republic unlawfully and had left Swaziland unlawfully. MR PIENAAR That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Prinsloo. Ms van DER Walt, any cross-examination? MS VAN DER WALT No cross-examination. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Richard. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you, Chair. Sir, would you be able to describe Mr Mosiane's physical condition when you found him in the police cell in Swaziland. Was he injured or uninjured. MR PIENAAR As far as I can recall he was not injured, Chairperson. MR RICHARD And if he were to say that he had already been assaulted by the Royal Swazi Police, would you dispute his allegation? MR PIENAAR I cannot dispute that. MR RICHARD The second point is, is it not correct that the method by which he was restrained in the car was that a rope was tied round his neck and the other end to the handbrake of the car. MR MALAN That was his evidence, Mr Richard. MR RICHARD Now my last question. You used the word "possible", you do not dispute that in Mr Mosiane's mind he formed the belief and conviction that if he did not cooperate with you and do what was wished of him, he would, as he says in his statement, disappear. MR PIENAAR That is possible yes, Chairperson. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Richard. Mr Prinsloo, before you have any re-examination, I propose that the Panel should also put question, that your re-examination should be fully encompassed in that respect. MR PRINSLOO As you please, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Adv Sandi, any questions? ADV SANDI No questions Mr Chairman, thank you. MR MALAN Just a brief follow-up on the last question. I think it is not only that you will not dispute it that he would form the impression that he would disappear, but that you had the intention to create that impression with him. MR PIENAAR With the words that were possible said that "we will shoot you if you do not sit still". MR MALAN Yes. MR PIENAAR Yes, Chairperson. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON And further that if he didn't want to cooperate with the Security Forces of South Africa, that he would have been also probably charged, if not removed entirely. MR PIENAAR Correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO No re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Pienaar, you are excused. MR PIENAAR Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED VOORSITTER "Is u nou aan die woord, mnr Prinsloo." MNR PRINSLOO Ja, Edelagbare. VOORSITTER Dankie. MR PRINSLOO The next applicant Mr Chairman, is Mr Deetlefs.