amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-03-30 PRETORIA 3 CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS AM5001/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54121&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200330pt.htm CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Deetlefs, you are the applicant in this matter, during which Mr Mosiane and three others were abducted from Swaziland. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And within the prescribed time you have submitted an application to the TRC, which appears in the bundle. Your application is from page 15 to 17, and the facts pertaining to the matter can be found from 18 to 21, and then the political background from page 22 onwards. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Do you confirm this as correct as it appears before you? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO At that stage you were the Branch Commander of Ermelo, when this incident took place. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And as a result of your activities in Swaziland, you had informers within Swaziland itself. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Did you also have an informer who was linked to the Swaziland Police? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And did this informer provide information to you regarding the victim, Mr Mosiane, and three others who were to be detained at this specific police station? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Did you convey this information to Brig Visser? MR DEETLEFS Yes, at a later stage I conveyed it to him. MR PRINSLOO And was a decision taken to take action and did you receive an order from Brig Visser to take these persons from that place? MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And what was the purpose with this? MR DEETLEFS To obtain information, because at that stage we were aware that these four persons were members of the so-called Special Operations group of MK. They had come together on a large-scale in Swaziland. To my opinion there was a large-scale offence which was being planned, which would include acts of terrorism and bomb attacks within the RSA, and I believed that it was vital for us to apprehend these persons in order to obtain information so that we could determine what exactly they were planning on doing within the RSA. MR PRINSLOO Do you confirm the evidence given by the previous applicant, Mr Pienaar? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And with this abduction so to speak, from Swaziland, did you create the impression with the applicant that he would be killed should he not cooperate? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, it was my intention in the vehicle. I threatened to shoot him because the intention was to intimidate him so that he would be quiet and not offer any resistance. MR PRINSLOO And he was tied by Mr Pienaar. MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And after that he was detained. MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And you left Swaziland without a passport. MR DEETLEFS Yes, we crossed the border fence without a passport. MR PRINSLOO Into the Republic of South Africa? MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And you then apply for amnesty for abduction. MR DEETLEFS Correct. MR PRINSLOO Incorporated with that would be assault. MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And then you also apply for the fact that you left the Republic of Swaziland illegally and that you entered the Republic of South Africa illegally. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And you also then apply for the illegal detention of the applicant in South Africa. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Therefore you apply for any offence which may emanate from the facts as set out within your application. MR DEETLEFS Correct. MR PRINSLOO As well as for any delictual accountability which may emanate from this. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Did you do this out of malice, this abduction? MR DEETLEFS No, I did not draw any personal advantage from this incident. MR PRINSLOO And this was for the benefit of the South African Police and the government of that time. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Prinsloo. Ms van DER Walt, any cross-examination? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Richard. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you. Sir, Mr Mosiane informs me that when he was arrested by the Swazi Police, he found that he was one of 12 MK operatives in the Manzini cells. Would your informers have let you know that bit of information as well? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson, I know that at a stage a large group of them was detained throughout Swaziland, so it is possible that he may have originally also have been detained at Manzini, but I don't know about it directly. MR RICHARD Now he and the three others were removed from Manzini and moved to this particular police station near the South African border, was that also within the information conveyed to you by your informers? MR DEETLEFS No, I simply the information that they were being detained in Bunja, I did not know that they had been detained at another police station. MR RICHARD But it is common cause that when you arrived at the police station approximate to the South African border, the Swazi Police man, the single one, offered no resistance at all in handing the four cadres to you. MR DEETLEFS No resistance was given by the Swaziland Police whatsoever. MR RICHARD Indeed there was co-operation. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I wouldn't be able to say because I did not liaise with this person at all, this police officer, so I wouldn't say that there was co-operation, I just believed that he was intimidated and due to this, did not resist at all. MR RICHARD Now do you recall Mr Mosiane's physical condition when you took him from the Swazi Police? MR DEETLEFS I cannot recall it that specifically, I cannot say whether he was assaulted prior to the time, I would not be able to tell you. It is possible, but I cannot tell you definitely. MR RICHARD Wouldn't it have been a matter of concern that if he had been injured, that it was documented so that in due course you and the men working with you couldn't be blamed for it? MR DEETLEFS I beg your pardon, due to the noise outside I couldn't hear the question quite properly, could you repeat it please. MR RICHARD Isn't it so that if a person is taken into your care who is injured, it's prudent and wise and good practice to document his physical condition, so as to prevent the implication that he suffered the injuries while in your care? MR DEETLEFS Yes, in terms of Section 29 he would have to be examined by a physician and any injuries that he had incurred would have to be documented. MR RICHARD Do you know when you was examined by a physician? MR DEETLEFS Most probably due to the fact that this incident took place on the Saturday night, if I recall correctly they were detained in terms of Section 29 on the subsequent Monday, so it would have been on the same day that they were examined by the physician. MR RICHARD However, there is no dispute from your evidence as I understand it, that you and your colleagues behaved and said things to Mr Mosiane that were intended to make him believe that if he did not cooperate and do as you wished, he would, as he says in his affidavit, vanish, disappear. MR DEETLEFS That was the intention with the threat. MR RICHARD And there's also no dispute about the fact that the rope was tied round Mr Mosiane's neck and tied to the handbrake of the car. MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Richard. Mr Steenkamp, any questions? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Honourable Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Adv Sandi? ADV SANDI No questions, thank you Chairperson. MR MALAN No questions, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Deetlefs, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, I omitted to apply amnesty on behalf of Mr Pienaar, as far as any delictual liability is concerned. Would that - I move this ... CHAIRPERSON Well it flows from the actions taken. If he gets amnesty on the others, then obviously any other offence and delictual actions would flow from that. MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Mr Chairman. That concludes the evidence of the two applicants I intend calling, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Prinsloo. MS VAN DER WALT Chairperson, I call Mr Visser.