amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-03-30 PRETORIA 3 SCHALK JAN VISSER AM5000/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54122&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200330pt.htm SCHALK JAN VISSER (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Malan. Ms van DER Walt. EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Visser, you are the applicant in this matter and your amnesty application has been embodied in the bundle, from page 1 to page 14, do you confirm the application as such? MR VISSER Yes, I do. MS VAN DER WALT You have heard the evidence given by Messrs Pienaar and Deetlefs, do you confirm their evidence as correct? MR VISSER Yes, I confirm it as correct. MS VAN DER WALT Is it also correct that you gave the order for Mr Mosiane and the three other persons to be abducted? MR VISSER That is correct, I gave the order. MS VAN DER WALT After the abduction took place, did you inform Head Office Police about the abduction? MR VISSER Yes. MS VAN DER WALT And what was the reaction by the Police Headquarters? MR VISSER While the persons were being detained in the Piet Retief cells, Gen Steenkamp and Brig Willem Schoon arrived there the following morning and informed themselves regarding the circumstances. MS VAN DER WALT Did they approve of it? MR VISSER Yes MS VAN DER WALT And did you feel that the abduction was necessary during that time, in order to combat the acts of terrorism which were being committed at that stage? MR VISSER Yes, it was necessary. MS VAN DER WALT Did you draw any personal advantage from this abduction? MR VISSER Absolutely not. MS VAN DER WALT Did you have any feelings of personal vengeance towards Mr Mosiane or the other three? MR VISSER No. MS VAN DER WALT Do you also then apply for amnesty for abduction? And did you also cross the border fence illegally? MR VISSER Yes, I did. MS VAN DER WALT Do you then also apply for the fact that you crossed a national border illegally? MR VISSER That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT As well as the illegal detention of Mr Mosiane until his detention in terms of Section 29? MR VISSER Yes, I apply for all these things. MS VAN DER WALT Along with any other offence or delictual accountability which may emanate from the facts of this case. MR VISSER Yes, I apply therefore. MS VAN DER WALT Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms van DER Walt. MR PRINSLOO No cross-examination, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Prinsloo. Mr Richard? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you. Simply one point. Was there any other information that you had at your disposal, other than what Mr Deetlefs and his informers had conveyed through Mr Deetlefs to you? MR VISSER The action was exclusively arranged as a result of the information which was conveyed by Mr Deetlefs, but over and beyond this I was aware of other planning regarding terrorist activities within the RSA during that period of time. MR RICHARD Now Mr Mosiane is still surprised that no force or over-show of force was required to show the Swazi Police to hand him and his colleagues to you, was there a reason for that the fact that no threat or force was required? MR VISSER I was under the impression with our action there, that the Swazi policeman was completely overwhelmed or surprised and that due to this he did not offer any physical resistance. MR RICHARD Now you've heard the evidence of the previous two applicants, and as I understand it you did not travel in the same car as Mr Mosiane. MR VISSER No, I travelled in another vehicle, me and the next applicant. MR RICHARD However, you would not dispute that they behaved and made utterances designed and intended to persuade Mr Mosiane to believe that if he didn't cooperate and do as the police wanted, he would disappear or vanish. MR VISSER I cannot dispute it, I wasn't present. MR RICHARD Do you recall anything about Mr Mosiane's physical condition? MR VISSER Not in particular, he was indeed within a position to enter the vehicle himself, but I cannot recall any particular details pertaining to his physical condition. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Richard. Mr Steenkamp. ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Honourable Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Malan. MR MALAN Chairperson, just to follow up on the question put by Mr Richard. You have heard that Mr Richard states that Mr Mosiane was completely surprised that the Swazi Police did not offer any resistance. Perhaps we should have put this question to Mr Pienaar or to Mr Deetlefs, do you have any knowledge of who the informer among the Swazi Police was? Was it perhaps somebody who occupied a high rank, who could make such an arrangement after he or she had received the information to transfer Mr Mosiane to the cells near the border post and also then to ensure that there would be only one policeman there, so that this person would cooperate? MR VISSER I do not have any specific knowledge of any particular person who may have conveyed information. I did not handle such a person and I'm also not aware that any special arrangements were made. My impression was that our action would hold the elements of surprise and that is why no Swazi resistance was offered. MR MALAN Did you identify yourselves to the Swazi policeman? MR VISSER No, we walked in there as four white men and made certain demands and the persons were released. I did not identify myself. MR MALAN You state that you put certain demands. MR VISSER We were under the impression that he was simply removed from the cells. MR MALAN Yes, well I just want to know whether or not you said anything to the policeman. MR VISSER I do not recall whether I said anything to him personally. MR MALAN Can you recall whether anything was said to him? MR VISSER I cannot recall specifically whether anything was said to him, most possibly I accept that we could have asked that the persons who coincidentally were held in the cells, be removed. MR MALAN I don't think that you will be able to assist us regarding Mr Mosiane's concerns. Thank you, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO I want to point out that Mr Deetlefs has just informed me that he's prepared to write the name of the informer on a piece of paper and make it available to the Committee, and also that the person concerned was a relatively senior person in the police, the hierarchy of that particular Police Station. MR MALAN Chairperson, with your permission. I don't know whether or not we should obtain it on the record from you, but is it also your instruction that this person, according to his rank, would be capable of arranging for such a transfer? Could you determine this because I think that will assist Mr Mosiane and will not have to recall the witness. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, as far as the applicant can take it is that this particular person was relatively senior in the Swazi Police and he's prepared to make his name available and it's possible that that person could have made some arrangement to move them to that particular place. He doesn't have that information, he can't give that evidence. That's how far I can take it. MR MALAN Thank you very much, Mr Prinsloo. CHAIRPERSON We are indebted to you, Mr Prinsloo, for that. Adv Sandi? ADV SANDI Thank you Chair, I don't have any questions to ask. MR RICHARD Chairperson, may I with your leave, ask one last question which didn't occur to me because it didn't appear relevant? CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly Mr Richard. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD The question is, were firearms exhibited when you went into the police station? MR VISSER We were armed and I believe that the firearms were visible, that our firearms were indeed visible. MR RICHARD Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Other than the firearms Mr Visser, being visible, did you physically take them out or you just showed that "we are armed"? MR VISSER We took out the firearms and displayed them on a visible level. CHAIRPERSON Ms van DER Walt, any re-examination? MS VAN DER WALT No re-examination, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Mr Visser, you are excused. MR VISSER Thank you, Sir. WITNESS EXCUSED MS VAN DER WALT The following applicant, Chairperson, is Mr van Zweel.