amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-04-17 PRETORIA 1 FRANS KLOKWE MASERUMULE AM6217/97 ATTACK ON SADF UNIT https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54137&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200417pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, indeed we are ready to proceed. The applicant is before you and he is ready to be sworn in. JUDGE MOTATA What language does the applicant wish to testify in? MR KOOPEDI The applicant will be testifying in English, Chairperson. FRANS KLOKWE MASERUMULE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members. Mr Maserumule, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter? MR MASERUMULE It is correct, Sir. MR KOOPEDI Where are you employed at the moment? MR MASERUMULE I'm in parliament. MR KOOPEDI Is that in Cape Town? MR MASERUMULE Yes. MR KOOPEDI Now at the relevant time, at the time of this incident, were you a member of any political organisation? MR MASERUMULE I was a member of the ANC and uMkhonto weSizwe. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, this incident occurred in 1982. We were hoping to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Let's find out from him. When did this incident occur? MR KOOPEDI It occurred in 1982. CHAIRPERSON Are you not able to be more precise? MR MASERUMULE I can't be more precise, ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Now when did you join the ANC? MR MASERUMULE I actually left the country in 1979 but I joined the ANC in 1980 in Mozambique in Matola. MR KOOPEDI Did you receive any military training? MR MASERUMULE I did receive military training in Angola in 1981. MR KOOPEDI After receiving the military training were you given any instructions, were you infiltrated into that country or given any missions? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) that we are aware of the existence of uMkhonto weSizwe. Did you become a member of that wing of the ANC? MR MASERUMULE As I said earlier on, I joined the ANC as well as uMkhonto weSizwe. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MR KOOPEDI After receiving the military training, were you given any other tasks, were you infiltrated into the country or were you given any missions? MR MASERUMULE Yes we were a unit of 17, we were given a mission to go and clear a route from Swaziland into Tonga. There was a military base of anti-insurgents units in Tonga. According to information we were given, when the unit was being grouped. CHAIRPERSON Maybe I'm going to get confused. Tonga, where is that? MR MASERUMULE Tonga is ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Oh, alright. Yes? MR KOOPEDI Now you say you were a unit of about 17? MR MASERUMULE That's right. MR KOOPEDI Would you name the people or the members of this unit? MR MASERUMULE I cannot exactly mention the names but the people who I can mention were the commanders because they had already been called by a code name then. Our senior commander then responsible for Northern Province. Asiti was Northern Transvaal, Durban was Comrade Mancheck and the commander for the actual operation was Comrade Peter Malada. MR KOOPEDI Do you ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Could you just spell that name please? CHAIRPERSON The commander. MR KOOPEDI The overall commander was Mr Mancheck, which is spelt M-A-N-C-H-E-C-K and the commander for the specific operation was Peter Malada. Malada is spelt M-A-L-A-D-A. CHAIRPERSON Before you carry on, can you tell us exactly what this operation was? You said to clear the way to Tonga? MR MASERUMULE Well it was clear to the way into the country, the unit was Tonga so it was ...(indistinct) I'm getting to that now. JUDGE MOTATA Are you not saying, Sir, that Tonga is in KwaZulu Natal? MR MASERUMULE Yes, Sir. JUDGE MOTATA Wouldn't that be in the country? MR MASERUMULE Yes, Sir. JUDGE MOTATA Now which way were you clearing within the country because you're now in the country because Tonga is in KwaZulu Natal? MR MASERUMULE ...(inaudible) so we couldn't get into the country before we ...(indistinct) moved there, the unit, military ...(indistinct). CHAIRPERSON In Tonga? MR MASERUMULE In Tonga, yes. The anti-insurgency unit of the SADF. JUDGE MOTATA Thank you Mr Koopedi, you may proceed. MR KOOPEDI Now if I understand your evidence to be correct and please confirm this, you were part of a unit that was responsible for clearing the way by attacking this unit of the SADF, is that correct? MR MASERUMULE Yes, Sir. MR KOOPEDI Now would you briefly tell this Honourable Committee where was this operation planned? MR MASERUMULE The operation was planned in Mozambique in Matola after information was made available to us but there was an anti-insurgency unit which established a temporary base in Tonga. Actually it was from Namibia then, that unit. So after that information the unit was grouped and I was responsible for preparing the unit physically, to prepare them physically for the operation. MR KOOPEDI Please proceed to explain the operation after the physical preparation? What then happened? MR MASERUMULE After the preparations we moved into Swaziland in Matzapa, Manzini, to wait for further instructions because a reconnaissance was supposed to be made, on the spot the reconnaissance was supposed to be made before we could move in for the attack. So we had to wait in Swaziland for the on the spot reconnaissance to be made before we could move in. We were grouped again in Swaziland. MR KOOPEDI What happened thereafter? MR MASERUMULE Thereafter a date was set, a date and time was set and then six bakkies were made available for us to get into South Africa. MR KOOPEDI Who made them available? MR MASERUMULE Our head office, our regional head office in Mozambique. MR KOOPEDI Okay, go on? MR MASERUMULE Then a time and a date was set. We moved into the country in Tonga. The on the spot reconnaissance, the information that was made available to us, on our way to Tonga, was that there was also a police station next to the camp. Then we arrived on the spot we were divided into two groups. A group of three people went into the police station, the rest of us, the ...(indistinct) of us went into the camp and then the operation started. It was in the early hours of the morning around ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR MASERUMULE Yes, that's right and the other one went into the camp and then the actual attacks started. It was in the early hours of the morning around - between 1 and 2. CHAIRPERSON What was going to happen ...(inaudible) MR MASERUMULE I couldn't hear that, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON I asked what was the plan for the police station. MR MASERUMULE Okay, the plan for the police station was also to attack. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MASERUMULE Can I proceed? After the operation was carried out, we then proceeded ...(indistinct). CHAIRPERSON We would like some details about the operation, how it was carried out. MR MASERUMULE Your actual operation, Chairperson, I will ...(indistinct) in the manner in which it was ...(indistinct) in line with what the operation was ...(indistinct) Bazuka with six shells. There was one light machine gun and the rest was AK-47s ...(indistinct). CHAIRPERSON What was - were you going to use Bazukas directed at these targets or what was going to happen. MR MASERUMULE Chairperson, the Bazukas were going to be directed at the target. CHAIRPERSON Both? MR MASERUMULE After both of them, the three of them? CHAIRPERSON Yes, I mean both targets. MR MASERUMULE No, no, as I said ...(indistinct), the other people were ...(indistinct) police station ...(indistinct) AKs. The rest of us ...(indistinct) Bazukas, light machine guns and AK-47s. Then the ...(indistinct) was carried out after a command was given with a Makarof pistol and the actual attack started. By the time we left the spot the camp was flat to the ground. MR KOOPEDI What weapon did you have personally? MR MASERUMULE Personally I was carrying a Bazuka with six shells. MR KOOPEDI Did you fire your Bazuka? MR MASERUMULE All the shells. MR KOOPEDI And directed them at the ...(intervention) MR MASERUMULE At the target. MR KOOPEDI At the target meaning the camp? MR MASERUMULE The camp, yes. MR KOOPEDI Do you know if your other comrades used the weapons they had with them? MR MASERUMULE Yes, I can prove that because after the operation we have to check as to how much ammunition was still available. That was how we could verify. We actually wanted to verify as to whether anybody had died inside the camp or anybody was injured but there was an exchange of fire, somebody was, somebody who we didn't know where that person was hiding from, there was an exchange of fire, we had to retreat again. MR KOOPEDI What time did you say this operation took place? MR MASERUMULE It took place in the early hours of the morning between 1 and 2. MR KOOPEDI 1 and 2 and you said this was in 1992? MR MASERUMULE 1982. MR KOOPEDI But you cannot recall the date and the month? MR MASERUMULE I cannot recall the month. MR KOOPEDI Now after attacking the camp and there was this return of fire, you say you retreated. What does that mean? Did you retreat just on that scene or did you go back to Swaziland? MR MASERUMULE Well we actually scattered in the bush in our retreat because everybody was trying to run for cover and we had to regroup again where the cars were parked. MR KOOPEDI And what happened thereafter, after regrouping? MR MASERUMULE Then we drove back to Swaziland, same morning. MR KOOPEDI And were you ever arrested for this incident? MR MASERUMULE I was not arrested for this incident, I was arrested for something else. I was arrested and charged for terrorism, not for this incident in particular. MR KOOPEDI Now in terms of regarding to what you have said and referring you in particular to this operation which is an attack on a unit ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Were you convicted of this incident? MR MASERUMULE I was ...(inaudible) incident. MR KOOPEDI With regard to this incident do you think you have told this Honourable Committee the whole truth, thereby complying with the requisite full disclosure? MR MASERUMULE I think I have everything to benefit, Sir, from telling the truth. MR KOOPEDI So you think you've told the truth? MR MASERUMULE I think so. MR KOOPEDI Now ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON It's not a matter of thinking that he told the truth, either he did tell the truth or he didn't. MR MASERUMULE Yes, your Honour, I told the truth. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Now, was there any personal benefit? Did you benefit anything personally financially or otherwise for having participated in this operation? CHAIRPERSON I notice what you said in your written application. Let me explain the purpose of that question. The Act says that you can't get amnesty if you behaved in a mercenary way when committing this act. I see in your written application you say that you became more brave and more committed and perhaps even more committed to the cause. I don't think that's what the Act envisaged. The Act envisaged maybe you were paid or you were given a house or car or whatever, something like that. Did you benefit in that way in committing this ...(intervention) MR MASERUMULE Your Honour, if I may explain something to you? If I understand the question, if I'm allowed? I belonged to the liberation movement. It is ...(inaudible), so it's not ...(inaudible), it's not political. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's what I've explained, I don't think the Act was talking about any political benefits or mental benefits, they're talking about actual mercenary benefits which doesn't seem to be the case when you answer all these questions here. I just thought it fair to you to explain the purpose of the question. MR MASERUMULE I did not benefit anything material. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. We had prepared on that aspect. And finally, do you regard this action as having been politically motivated? MR MASERUMULE Yes, I regard it as being politically motivated because as we would understand, all of us, there was puppet system which was supposed to be fought and we carried out this operation, was amongst other things that we have ...(indistinct) was reaching the - where we have reached today, that is politically. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, that would be the evidence from the applicant. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI MS MTANGA I have no questions, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA ADV SIGODI This terrorism incident that you were arrested for, were you convicted for it? Did you serve time for it? MR MASERUMULE Yes I was sentenced for thirteen and a half years ...(indistinct) imprisonment. I served only six years. ADV SIGODI But you have not applied for amnesty in respect of this? MR MASERUMULE Oh, I couldn't because I was charged and convicted and served a sentence for those things, there was no point in that. CHAIRPERSON Whatever the reasons are, the question is you did not apply for amnesty in respect of those incidents? MR MASERUMULE ...(indistinct) terrorism. CHAIRPERSON That for which you served sentence? MR MASERUMULE Can you rephrase the question again, Sir? CHAIRPERSON We want to know whether you applied for amnesty in respect of the offences for which you were convicted and served a sentence of six years? MR MASERUMULE When I was released from prison I was indemnified. ADV SIGODI Indemnity. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR KOOPEDI And perhaps if I may answer that question for him, the answer is no, he is not applying for amnesty for any of those incidents that are listed on the SAPS-69. We realised that we had not put that in the application form and if we were to bring it now it would be an ovation so we agreed that amnesty is only being sought only on this instance that he has testified on. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi, has he made any other application for amnesty in respect of those offences? MR MASERUMULE No Sir. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) Mr Koopedi, you're going to have to help me here. I see in answer to question 9(b) - I think you are better equipped to answer the question than your client. We're not too sure for which offences he is applying? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, this application is based or is intended for a single action. This is an action that occurred in 1992 - I'm sorry, in 1982 at a place called Tonga in Kwa-Zulu Natal. CHAIRPERSON Our difficulty is knowing what he is applying for, either murder or attempted murder or arson or whatever? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, the applicant's understanding at that time of commission and now was that there were a number of people, 45 people, who were supposed to have been at that camp according to the information they had and his instructions to me and in fact this is what the evidence is that when they left the scene they had flattened everything. His belief would then have been that people, many people, 45 people could have been killed or injured. However, since he had immediately after the operation fled back into Swaziland, he has no knowledge as to the nature of the casualties that were there. It appears from the bundle of documents that we have that according to the SANDF, they believed that there were no casualties which is something that stands in contrast with what he believes. CHAIRPERSON I don't know if you were informed of an attack by the SADF on an ANC camp, I think in Angola, where they bombed a whole city where there was nobody in the city? MR KOOPEDI Yes, yes. That is probable, but what I'm trying, what we're trying to explain here is that we are therefore unable to say did we kill on that day, if we killed who did we kill? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR KOOPEDI It also appears that, you know, there are no records from the Police. However, applicant says he was part of a group that attacked an army base. CHAIRPERSON It would not be out of order to, if we are going to grant amnesty, to grant it in the following terms. For an undetermined number of attempted murders, because we don't know how many people were there, if there were any people, arson of that camp. Now before we do that, we need to find out also what the camp was made of. Was it structures or tents or whatever, but we'll come to that. Then there would be unlawful possession of explosives in contravention of the Explosives Act and unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition and perhaps we can add a rider, any offence that may arise out of the commission or those activities committed on that day at this incident which may cover any murder may have occurred. MR KOOPEDI I agree, I think that would be the way to look at a possible draft order. CHAIRPERSON You can't blame the applicant for not being able to tell us whether there were casualties or not by the nature of the attack. Would you agree with that? MR KOOPEDI I concede that. CHAIRPERSON Arson by it's very nature, arson by it's definition, the requirements thereof must be the burning of a structure, that is not a loose structure, fixed structure. We don't know whether that camp was made of fixed structures or tents or whatever. Maybe we can be told what it is, because if it wasn't fixed structures then it's not arson, that is malicious injury to property, I suppose. Do you follow what I'm saying? MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Now Mr Maserumule, the camp that you attacked, what type of a camp was it? MR MASERUMULE As I mentioned earlier on, Sir, I said it was a temporary base. Obviously that's made of tents and there was razor wire around. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) it was made of tents. Now, the attack on the police station, although you didn't go into the police station are you able to tell us, even from reports that you received thereafter, what happened there, was it an attack on the building of the police station or only the police in this police station or what? What was the position there? MR MASERUMULE Well I can't say what the position was about but we later received ...(inaudible) and the intention was only to attacking those people, if they were killed. The intention was to make it impossible for them to react ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON So you wanted to negate any possible defence by them in the attack on the camp? MR MASERUMULE Pardon? CHAIRPERSON You wanted to negate ...(intervention) MR MASERUMULE That's ...(inaudible) what I'm saying. CHAIRPERSON So you are in no position to say whether they were injured or they were killed? MR MASERUMULE I'm not ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON And you are unable to say what happened to that police station? MR MASERUMULE Well I can't say, I was not part of that ...(inaudible). CHAIRPERSON When you ran away, when you retreated, did you not see what happened or the results of what was happening? MR MASERUMULE You couldn't, Sir, as I said we were running for cover because there was an exchange of fire. CHAIRPERSON Oh, okay. And when you reached Mozambique were there no reports on what happened to the police station or at the police station? MR MASERUMULE The person who was supposed to be briefed was the commander, not all of us. CHAIRPERSON Okay. I don't know whether the attack on the police station falls within the ambit of this application and if it does, to what extent any offence was committed there. We don't know. Nothing may have occurred there. MR KOOPEDI It is indeed so, Chairperson, that the three people who went into the police station went there not to kill, most probably only to make sure that there is no action on their part to protect the police station and it is also so that this applicant does not know what happened in there and it would then not be expected of this Committee to consider giving him amnesty for an attack on the police station. There is no application for that attack. Whatever that happened in that police station should not have been an attack on people. If people were attacked, this would have been most probably outside the instructions and they're not party thereto. JUDGE MOTATA No, but when this attack on the camp, the temporary structure, was it not an agreement in the unit that - so this portion of the unit goes to the police station? It's an agreement within the 17 that you immobilise the police? So once the others attacked the camp, those are immobilised. MR KOOPEDI I wouldn't say it was an agreement. The applicant was part of a group that was commanded by one Mr Malada. My understanding is that after - when they were on their way to Tonga, the underground reconnaissance information came back to say that there is also a police station. Then there was that order by the commander that we split, it wasn't like, you know, it's an agreement where we can say people should take some form of shared responsibility. The commander ordered these others to go to the police station and the applicant was part of a group that went to the camp and not the police station. It maybe arguable that the applicant may be guilty of a common purpose if any charges were to be brought against the three other comrades but I believe that for the purposes of this application, he is not applying for amnesty for anything that happened in that police station particularly because he does not think that anything happened, he didn't see anything happening to the police station, he did not even get a report that these things went out of hand and we had to shoot or kill a policeman in there. ADV SIGODI But did he not reconcile himself with the consequences of that which could happen at the police station? MR KOOPEDI I'm not sure I understand the question, particularly because my argument in this instance is that this applicant was commanded, was ordered to go to a particular place and carry out a particular mission. He was not ordered to go to the police station. ADV SIGODI In other words you are saying that it's only the senior commander or their commander who would be responsible for that decision of going to the police station? MR KOOPEDI Yes, if my understanding is that if we had all the participants and the commander as applicants, this applicant would only appear as an applicant on the one incident, then perhaps the commander would appear on the other incident together with the three other people. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi, is there anything else you want to add to your argument? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, just something very briefly. My submission, Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, is that this a straightforward application. It's my further submission that this applicant has given full disclosure. It is noted that he cannot recall the date and the month of the incident but however, he has tried according to best of his memory to give you full disclosure. It's my further submission that this applicant received no personal financial gain out of the operation and my final submission is that an attack on this unit, the soldiers, was an attack on what one could call a military target and was politically motivated and it is against those submissions that I will ask the Honourable Committee to grant this applicant amnesty in the lines we've been discussing about. Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER ARGUMENT BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga, is that the roll for today? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We will reserve the decision in this application and adjourn the hearings until tomorrow, nine thirty. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS