amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-02 WHITE RIVER 1 SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE AM5303/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54146&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200502wr.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger. MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, the next applicant is General Shoke, he too will affirm and not take the oath. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE (affirmed states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Berger. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Gen Shoke, what is your present position in the South African National Defence Force? GEN SHOKE Director ...(indistinct) MR BERGER You've heard the evidence of Gen Nyanda, the evidence he gave about the landmine campaigning in the Eastern Transvaal. Do you confirm that evidence? GEN SHOKE Positive. MR SIBANYONI Excuse me, Mr Berger. You say Director of what? His present position. I didn't get his present position. MR BERGER What did you say your present position is? GEN SHOKE Director of Personnel Acquisition. MR BERGER I think that's recruitment. GEN SHOKE Positive. MR BERGER Gen Shoke, you've also made an application for amnesty, Your application, if you will confirm, appears in the bundle from pages twenty-one through to twenty-seven, with an annexure at 28 and 29, is that correct? GEN SHOKE Positive. MR BERGER And you've also submitted a statement, which appears in the bundle from page thirty through to page 36, is that correct? GEN SHOKE Positive, although some few corrections. MR BERGER Yes, I was going to get you to say something more than just positive, because I'm now going to ask you, there are certain corrections that you'd like to bring to the statement, the first is at page 33. If you could just indicate the corrections. GEN SHOKE Paragraph 8 should be ...(indistinct) MR BERGER That's paragraph 8 at the bottom of page 33, you're deleting the word "urban" from the first sentence? GEN SHOKE Positive. MR BERGER And also there was a correction that you wanted to bring under paragraph 6(c) on page , the last sentence. GEN SHOKE To delete "later". MR BERGER Where it says Transvaal was later split, you say it was split because that split occurred much earlier, is that right? GEN SHOKE Positive. MR BERGER And then finally at page 35, there is a correction, in fact it's an addition, the second paragraph on that page reads that "The four landmines were planted, the information collected from reconnaissance would be accumulated and a decision to plant a landmine would be taken, based on that information." You wanted to add something there. GEN SHOKE Although it was the procedure, but it was not always the case. MR BERGER That was not always the case. Alright. Now in fact, while we're on page 35, we can deal with the command structure of Kletshwayo, which you have listed the people involved there at the top of page 35. You see that? The paragraph which reads "The structure responsible for planning and approval of landmines consisted of myself, Siphiwe Nyanda, Jabo Dumane (now deceased), Viva (now deceased) Sizwe (now deceased), Belgium (now deceased) and Little John (now deceased)." You confirm that you were part of the command structure of Kletshwayo, is that correct? GEN SHOKE That's true. MR BERGER We also know from your application that you wore different hats, sometimes at the same time. I want to ask you just in relation to Kletshwayo, because that's all that this application today is concerned with, the landmine campaign, what was your function on this command structure? GEN SHOKE I was responsible for hardware. MR BERGER What does that mean? GEN SHOKE Weaponry. MR BERGER No, no. What does it mean when you say you were responsible for hardware? What exactly would you do? GEN SHOKE That would mean when people, or when operations had to be carried out, the request or a requisition would be made to me and then I'll go to hide out, or hiding place and let them take out the necessary equipment. MR BERGER Were you responsible for providing that equipment, that hardware to the cadres, or was there someone else on this command structure who would act as an interphase? GEN SHOKE I think maybe this Committee will appreciate that we were operating on a need-to-know basis and hardware was one of the most delicate equipment to be handled and if you just give it direct to the individuals, you were exposing yourself to a serious danger. MR BERGER So you wouldn't hand it straight, directly to the cadres? GEN SHOKE No. MR BERGER Who was the person who would interphase between you and the cadres? GEN SHOKE In our structure, actually, I was liaising very closely with Viva. MR BERGER Viva being the Chief of Operations? GEN SHOKE Exactly. MR BERGER And then as far as operations were concerned, did you have any knowledge about the exact operation, when, where, or was that left to the unit on the ground? GEN SHOKE As much as, actually like I said earlier on, we were operating on a need-to-know basis, what I think I want to make clearer in this Commission, that I take responsibility for all operations that took place while I was there, whether directly or indirectly. MR BERGER When you say directly or indirectly, can you explain what the difference is? GEN SHOKE Indirectly in a sense that I was part actually of the command structure, and therefor I was part of the collective that made decisions and indirectly in the sense that I might have provided the equipment to carry out that particular operation. MR BERGER In the sense that, when you talk about indirectly, you mean not physically involved in planting the landmine at the scene. GEN SHOKE Positive. MR BERGER But nevertheless, you don't dispute your involvement in the entire operation? GEN SHOKE We were a collective. MR BERGER And for that you take responsibility? GEN SHOKE Positive. MR BERGER For all the landmine explosions that occurred under the command of Kletshwayo? GEN SHOKE Positive. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Berger. Ms Mtanga, any questions? MS MTANGA I have no questions Chairperson, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Panel? ADV SANDI Just one, if I may. General did you give any specific order or instruction to the third applicant, Mr Mkhonto? GEN SHOKE No, not directly. ADV SANDI Did you know him as a member of one of your units? GEN SHOKE Very well. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Chair. MR SIBANYONI I've got no questions, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON During which period were you involved in this particular operation, this campaign? GEN SHOKE Ever since its inception, until I think the beginning of 1988. CHAIRPERSON Would the inception have been in 1985? GEN SHOKE Towards the end of 1985. CHAIRPERSON End of 85? GEN SHOKE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any knowledge of incidents that might have involved the persons that are listed on page 3 of the application papers as victims? You can just have a look at that. Have you got any knowledge of any of those people, possible incidents? GEN SHOKE I might not have knowledge of their names, but like I said, I take responsibility because it would be difficult for me to remember the names as to who is who. CHAIRPERSON So your position is, if these people were injured in incidents that fell within the campaign, then you take responsibility in respect of those? GEN SHOKE Positive. CHAIRPERSON I'm not sure if you do refer to that in your statement, so I won't rely on my recollection, I'll just ask you, General Nyanda refers to six incidents on page 17 of the papers. Do you confirm those as incidents that fell within this campaign? GEN SHOKE Positive, although actually like I say, that I take in fact responsibility for all the incidents. There might be others that are not listed here. Gen Nyanda left early in Swaziland, while I was still there. CHAIRPERSON But just so as to be able to identify more concretely some incidents, these one here you do confirm, these six on page 17? GEN SHOKE It's difficult to maybe single out incident by incident here, because these things happened a long time ago, but I move from premises that we were responsible for the landmines in the Eastern Transvaal. CHAIRPERSON And on the basis of Gen Nyanda's evidence, let's assume that this was, as he testified, this was part of the campaign. On that basis you would take responsibility for that as well? GEN SHOKE Exactly. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BERGER Chairperson, just for the record, you're looking for a statement in Gen Shoke's statement, at page 35 there's just the sentence, just before paragraph 13 "I do not know how many incidents took place but I accept that the ANC is responsible for all landmines planted during that period." CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes, I've got it, thank you Mr Berger. Yes, you do confirm that Gen Shoke. GEN SHOKE Exactly. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes thank you. Mr Berger. MR BERGER I have no re-examination thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Gen Shoke you're excused. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson, the last applicant is Sgt-Maj Dick Mkhonto.