amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 2000-05-03 METHODIST CHURCH, PRETORIA 16 NICHOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN AM4358/96 ATTACK ON TRANSIT HOUSE IN BOTSWANA ON 11 DECEMBER 1988 - (PART-HEARD) https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54148&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200503pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Anybody care to tell us why we're starting late? Anybody want to venture? No. It's probably an act of God, seeing that we're sitting in the church. Where are we now? MR VAN DER MERWE Mr Chairman, may I assist? CHAIRPERSON Ja. MR VAN DER MERWE At the last stage when we adjourned this hearing, my client, Mr Hoffman, had finished his evidence and his re-examination and I think the Committee was in the process of asking one or two questions. As you will notice in the transcript, pages 157, I think it finished at 1567. The transcript, not the ... CHAIRPERSON Just repeat that number. MR VAN DER MERWE The transcript indicates that at the stage when we adjourned, Mr Chairman, yourself and Judge Khampepe were asking certain questions in clearing up certain issues with my client and at that stage it transpired that there was a victim that wasn't notified, but everybody, all the attorneys present had already cross-examined Mr Hoffman. JUDGE KHAMPEPE I think I had exhausted my questioning. ADV BOSMAN I have no questions to put to Mr Hoffman, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I can't even remember if I had. He's excused. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chair. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VAN DER MERWE Mr Chairman, that concludes my clients for this hearing. CHAIRPERSON Who's next? MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair, Cornelius for the record. I call N J Vermeulen. NICHOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairman. I've been given to understand that I might be brief in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Excuse me? MR CORNELIUS He's one of the footsoldiers, so I'll be pretty brief in leading his evidence. Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Normally they haven't got much to say. EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Quite correct. You prepared your application according to Section 18 of the Act, and you gave your cooperation to the Investigative Team of the TRC, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS You were an employee of the South African Police, as defined in Section 29(2)(b) and (2)(f) of the Act, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is. MR CORNELIUS You were seconded to the C-Section of which de Kock was in charge. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, yes. MR CORNELIUS You confirm your amnesty application as it appears in the bundle, concerning the general background and the political motives thereof. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, yes. MR CORNELIUS You followed the instructions of de Kock and worked on a need-to-know basis. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, yes. MR CORNELIUS And you acted at all times within the service of the police. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS You are an explosives expert, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS You manufactured an explosive device, which was used in this specific incident in Botswana, is that correct? ...(transcriber's interpretation) CHAIRPERSON Could I ask the following question? I do not want to be funny, but we all know what happened in the country in the past, the knowledge that you had about explosives, was it to manufacture bombs, to identify bombs or to defuse bombs that were found? MR VERMEULEN Chairperson, I was an Inspector of Explosives. CHAIRPERSON What I would like to know is, what did your tasks entail, was it to manufacture bombs for the purpose, for example, in this case or was it for when they find bombs, to then inspect and identify them, or to say what they were? And thirdly, that if they found something, for example, in a shop, that you would then diffuse this bomb? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, the last two that you mentioned is correct. CHAIRPERSON And the manufacturing of bombs was just a later aspect of your tasks, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN That is. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. You mention in your application that you carried a "platter", could you explain to the Committee what a "platter' is. MR VERMEULEN Mr Chairperson, it consists of a plastic pipe, the cover which I can estimate would be about 20cm, the length would be approximately 30cm, and I would say at the front of this pipe it had a round piece of metal that fitted into the pipe and then at the back the pipe was full of explosives and then it was detonated mechanically or electrically from the back. MR CORNELIUS Very well. And this specific device, did it have an electrical detonator? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS And what was the length of the cord? MR VERMEULEN The platter itself was taken to the target, it was mounted with a detonating device, in order to give it a safe distance and at the end of the detonator device we would then add a spring charge and then detonate it from there. CHAIRPERSON What type of problems could this bomb cause? If I could put it as such. MR VERMEULEN It can result in major damage. The platter or the metal in the front is quite heavy and it will then forced out at a high speed. CHAIRPERSON You describe the bomb that was used to damage or destroy this house MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You saw this house? MR VERMEULEN The night that we went there, yes. CHAIRPERSON It could have been described to you before you made this bomb. MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON How did you then know how big this bomb had to be then to create the necessary damage? MR VERMEULEN Quite a while before that - we were not specifically tasked to partake in this operation, at the last moment I was involved, or I became involved. I experimented with the explosive devices, because you can use different devices for example, for a car bomb. CHAIRPERSON So you prepared this beforehand and you could then just take what you needed for an operation. MR VERMEULEN That's correct. CHAIRPERSON So you did not manufacture a bomb specifically for an operation. MR VERMEULEN No, this bomb was not made specifically for that operation. CHAIRPERSON How can I say, did you place it in a cupboard and then use it when necessary? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS Just to clarify it for the Committee, I understand in consultation you said that you tested this bomb at the mines. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS And that you then found that it was sufficient. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Can you just explain to the Committee in short. You went to the scene, what happened then? MR VERMEULEN We crossed the border in the evening. It was quite a distance from the building. We came together there. I think Mr Ras carried the bomb up to the house. We took out the cortex. There was a problem with the electrical wiring, it was in a crow's nest and we could not place it at a safe distance. The bomb was then quickly detonated. MR CORNELIUS You are now talking in general, can you give more specifics. Did you try to lay the wire down and then it became entangled. CHAIRPERSON And you knew what the operation was about, you received your instructions "bring a bomb along, we are going to do something"? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And when you arrived there you realised what you had to do. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you agreed with it. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You knew that this bomb could kill somebody. MR VERMEULEN Yes, I did. MR CORNELIUS And you also knew that this was a transit house and it was for purposes of the ANC, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS When you couldn't get the wiring set out, what did you do then? MR VERMEULEN I took the open ends of the wiring, I connected the battery and an explosion occurred. MR CORNELIUS You were quite close to it and you were then covered with dust and gravel. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS What happened then? We understood from the evidence that the walls of the house collapsed. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And after the bomb was detonated, what did you do then? MR VERMEULEN We then moved back to the house, I moved around the house. I did not see anyone. I heard shots being fired ...(intervention) MR CORNELIUS Can I just assist you. You submitted evidence to the Committee, that behind the ANC facility there was a round rondawel with a thatched roof, was that the lapa that you are referring to in your application? MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS You set it alight. MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS Did it have walls? Did it have reeds or clay? MR VERMEULEN As far as I know it had a very low wall around it, but it was not up to the ceiling. MR CORNELIUS It was mentioned that it could have been a cooking place. MR VERMEULEN Yes, I assumed it was a cooking facility. MR CORNELIUS Did you see anybody in this rondawel? MR VERMEULEN No. MR CORNELIUS How did you set the thatched roof alight? MR VERMEULEN There was a candle there, I kept it up to the ceiling and it caught alight. MR CORNELIUS Did you then take part in the shooting afterwards? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You did not ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE May I interpose, Mr Vermeulen. Why was it necessary for you to set this lapa on fire, you've just testified that there was no-one inside this lapa. MR VERMEULEN The only reason why I did it was because it was the ANC transit facility and I decided that while we're destroying it, I can destroy the rest of the buildings as well. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Was it part of the instruction that you had received from Mr de Kock, that you should destroy any property? MR VERMEULEN Nobody gave me an instruction to destroy the rondawel, I did it on my own. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Was it not against the instruction that you, the general instruction that you had been given? MR VERMEULEN Not as far as I am concerned, no. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Why not, because your instructions were to destroy the main building with a detonator? MR VERMEULEN That's correct. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And your instruction was not to destroy any property using ...(indistinct) MR VERMEULEN Well I felt - as I said, I took it on my own to destroy the rondawel, because it was used as a transit facility to make food, so that's why I destroyed it. I didn't get any instruction to do it, I did it on my own. JUDGE KHAMPEPE What about the other building that was left standing? That was not destroyed. MR VERMEULEN I don't know, I didn't even - to tell you the truth, I didn't even know there was another building, Mr Chairman. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you. Mr Cornelius. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Judge. There were no disciplinary actions taken against you because of the fact that you destroyed this rondawel, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You believed that you acted in accordance with the country's interest, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS And to prevent any further infiltration of ANC members. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS After you detonated the bomb, did you then leave the scene and go back to South Africa? MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS Except for the salary that you received, did you receive any other bonuses or any incentives to do this work? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You did not get any personal gain? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You had no personal feelings of hate against the victims? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you make a full disclosure of all the facts, according to your knowledge? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And you then ask for amnesty on two incidents of murder and all offences under the Act on Explosives, and whatever may result out of it, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON The blowing up of the house, would that not be arson? MR CORNELIUS It will be arson as well. I've actually included it in the malicious damage to property, but arson would be quite correct, to include arson. Thank you, Mr Chair. MR NEL I've got no questions for Mr Vermeulen. Thank you, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL MR JANSEN No questions, Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN MR VAN DER MERWE Van der Merwe on record, Mr Chairman. No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE MR LAMEY No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO(?) Thank you, Mr Chairman, just two aspects. Mr Vermeulen, evidence was given that after this operation occurred, you received merit certificates, did you receive such a certificate? MR VERMEULEN I cannot remember, Mr Chairperson, certificates were handed out but it was given out within a wide spectrum. I cannot remember if it was for that specific operation. MR HUGO Those were the certificates that were signed by Gen van der Merwe, and were handed out to the members. MR VERMEULEN Yes, it could have been. I did receive some of them, but I cannot remember if it was concerning this specific incident. MR HUGO And then just the last aspect. Evidence was given that this operation was mainly handed over to Mr Ras, that he did the planning, the preparation etcetera, and that Mr de Kock came in at a later stage, on an operational level. Is that also how you experienced it? MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO CHAIRPERSON Mr Maribana. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARIBANA Thank you, Mr Chairperson. J C Maribana on behalf of the victims. Mr Vermeulen, I've got just a few questions for you. Firstly, I just want to find out how far the charge was put from structure Y. MR VERMEULEN Mr Chairman, that I won't be able to answer because I didn't place the charge itself, I was just the person that ignited the electric detonator. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Vermeulen, you are free to respond in your language. You can use Afrikaans in your response. MR VERMEULEN Thank you, Mr Chair. MR MARIBANA Okay, the other aspect I would like clarity from you on, I just want to find out from you Mr Vermeulen, would you be able maybe to tell this Committee as to - if you can remember, when you detonated the charge, did someone order you to do that or you just did it on your own? MR VERMEULEN At that stage somebody would have said to me that the detonator is set, because I wouldn't have been able to detonate it with the electric wiring if somebody was close to the main detonating device, I had to get the instructions to go ahead. CHAIRPERSON Or some kind of sign? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, yes. MR MARIBANA And the other thing - okay, as you have just indicated that you remember setting the rondawel alight, will you be able maybe to remember as to how did it come that structure X, that is the family house, how did it catch alight? MR VERMEULEN Mr Chairperson, I cannot say. When I set he rondawel alight I just saw that the flame started burning properly in the rondawel itself and that then we withdrew from the scene. I was about 500m away and when I looked back I saw the roof of the rondawel itself burning. I did not see that the big family house was burning at that stage. MR MARIBANA Okay Mr Vermeulen, there's evidence before this Committee, I can't remember exactly whether it was from Mr Ras or from Mr Hoffman, that at a certain stage when you looked back you could see that the family house was on fire. Do you remember maybe seeing the family house on fire on that day in question? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson, all that I can remember is that I saw the rondawel alight. MR MARIBANA And now just one question more. About the structure Y, when you detonated the bomb, did that charge destroy this structure completely, or how was it destroyed actually by that bomb? MR VERMEULEN As far as I can recall, the wall - I would say it was number E, that wall was completely destroyed, the roof or the ceiling fell in at that side. I did not enter the house itself, so I cannot say what it looked like inside, but I know that the wall E was completely destroyed and the ceiling was, or the roof was completely collapsed in. MR MARIBANA And what about the other part of the structure where it was written ANC and then it was B1 next to it? Did it fall or what happened actually? MR VERMEULEN That I don't know, Mr Chair. It was dark and I didn't check there. As I said, the only thing that I know for sure was that the roof and the wall marked E, that was completely destroyed. MR MARIBANA And did you - as you about that other structure where it was written B, when you got near the structure, or you'd been proceeding towards the rondawel, was that structure still intact? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Mr Chair, I can't say because I didn't look at that structure. MR MARIBANA Mr Vermeulen, I've got instructions that even structure B was completely destroyed on the day in question, what is your comment on that? JUDGE KHAMPEPE Structure B? MR MARIBANA I mean this one - excuse me, Madam Chair, structure Y. On that other part the witness has just indicated that he can't remember ... MR VERMEULEN I won't deny that, but as far as my memory can allow me I can say the first structure, that is number 2, that was destroyed, the rest I don't know, I didn't look, I didn't enter that building at all. MR MARIBANA Okay. JUDGE KHAMPEPE By that you mean you don't know whether structure X was destroyed or not? MR CORNELIUS Judge, sorry to interrupt. He's referring to structure B, that is the ANC facility. Judge, do you have a copy? JUDGE KHAMPEPE I don't have a copy, but I do recall the structure. It's just that it's a little bit confusing because we've got two structures, structure X and structure Y, but he's referring to the side on structure X. MR CORNELIUS He's referring to these two over here. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. MR MARIBANA Madam Chair, if I can just put the Chairman in a better light. Mr Vermeulen has just indicated that on structure Y, what he can remember is that that part which is marked E, it was completely destroyed. I just wanted to find out from him about this other part, not about structure X. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes, it was a little bit confusing because he referred to that side as a structure and not the wall or the side in structure Y. MR MARIBANA Thank you, Madam Chair. And then lastly, did that charger maybe have an effect on structure X? MR VERMEULEN Just repeat that question. MR MARIBANA Okay. The detonating of the charger, did it have any effect on structure X? MR VERMEULEN I won't be able to comment on that because I didn't see that building, Mr Chair. MR MARIBANA And I've got instructions that the walls of that structure, for structure X, were destroyed as well. What is your comment on that? CHAIRPERSON Is that possible? MR VERMEULEN Not from the detonation or the detonating of that explosive, it would not have been able to destroy X. CHAIRPERSON But I think you wouldn't have said that it was because of the explosion. Do you have knowledge, of the fact that maybe that building was damaged? MR VERMEULEN No, I did not even see that building. CHAIRPERSON No. So you cannot say? MR VERMEULEN No. MR MARIBANA If I may just ask you, do you remember any weapon, except the charger, which could be able to destroy the wall of that other building? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chair. MR MARIBANA As it pleases. I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARIBANA MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chair, I have no questions for the witness. NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL MR CORNELIUS I've no re-examination, thank you Mr Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS JUDGE KHAMPEPE I have not questions for Mr Vermeulen. ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you're excused. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vermeulen, you can be seated. You said that you were applying for two murders, offences pertaining to the Explosives Act, as well as arson. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON In that building which was blown up, I understand from previous evidence that there were two persons who were at least injured, and it appeared that they were dead at that time. What about them? MR CORNELIUS If I may interrupt. That will obviously include two attempted murder charges then as well. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I just want to ask all the legal representatives to, even now, consider what they're going to ask amnesty for at the end of the day, just to list it even if your client has already testified. I just want clarity on that before we finish with this matter. MR CORNELIUS As the Chair pleases. WITNESS EXCUSED MR LAMEY Chairperson, the next applicant is Nortje. I just beg leave to call him.