amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-03 PRETORIA 16 LAWRENCE JOHN HANTON AM4076/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54150&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200503pt.htm LAWRENCE JOHN HANTON (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NEL Mr Hanton, is it correct that you're an applicant in these proceedings and your application is correctly filed in the bundle found on page 56 on onwards? MR HANTON That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR NEL In your application you've referred to the submissions of erstwhile, Gen van der Merwe, and you ask that these submissions be incorporated as part of your application. MR HANTON That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR NEL At the time of this incident were you a member of Vlakplaas, obviously in the South African Police? MR HANTON I was, Mr Chairperson. MR NEL And you were under the command of Col de Kock. MR HANTON That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR NEL Dealing with the incident of ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON If it wasn't so obvious that it was of the South African Police at the time. MR NEL I beg your pardon. CHAIRPERSON They denied it existed. MR NEL As it pleases you, Mr Chair. You were however a member of Vlakplaas. MR HANTON That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR NEL If I may deal briefly with the incident. Mr Hanton, is it correct that you were part of a group of people who planned a particular operation to be executed in Botswana? MR HANTON Correct, Mr Chairperson. MR NEL Is it correct that your task was simply to be part of, what you would refer to as a support team, who remained inside South Africa? MR HANTON That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR NEL You never entered Botswana at all. MR HANTON No, Mr Chairperson. MR NEL You were aware of the fact that people could be killed in Botswana, and indeed people did die there. MR HANTON That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR NEL And do you also admit that your action signifies some form of common purpose with those members who went into Botswana? MR HANTON That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But did you make common purpose with them? You agreed with they did? MR HANTON I agreed with them, Mr Chairperson. MR NEL For your participation in this operation, did you receive any reward? MR HANTON No, Mr Chairperson. MR NEL Is it then correct that you apply for amnesty for the offences of conspiring to murder; two counts of murder; two counts of attempted murder ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How did you contribute to this? MR HANTON Mainly in a support capacity, Mr Chairperson. I remained at the base inside South Africa ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON At the border? MR HANTON No, at the base where we worked from at the dam where we were camped. CHAIRPERSON Ja. How would you contribute to this operation? MR HANTON I was in - I would say in order to help the others on their return, that is all I've actually done. CHAIRPERSON Was your contribution essential to the success of the operation? MR HANTON No, Mr Chairperson. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Were you not part of the planning of the operation? MR HANTON I was, yes, Mr Chairperson, but I merely - I stayed at the base ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, but you were part of the planning. JUDGE KHAMPEPE You planned the whole operation. MR HANTON I was part of the planning, yes. CHAIRPERSON In the hope that it would be successful. MR HANTON That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you exactly knew - isn't that your contribution then, that you were party to ...(intervention) MR HANTON That would be my contribution, Mr Chairperson. MR NEL Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Do you confirm the correctness of the application and also the political motive set out in your application found in the bundle? MR HANTON I do, Mr Chairperson. MR NEL And as I was saying, you ask for amnesty for conspiring to murder; two counts of murder; two counts of attempted murder, and also arson. MR HANTON That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Will you just repeat that slowly please. MR NEL Conspiring to murder; two counts of murder; two counts of attempted murder, and arson. That is the evidence. Thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chairperson, van der Merwe on record. I have no questions for Mr Hanton. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE MR JANSEN Thank you, Chair, Jansen on record. No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Chair, Cornelius on record. I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR LAMEY Lamey on record. No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY MR HUGO I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman. I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARIBANA Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've got just one point I would like clarity on from Mr Hanton. Mr Hanton, on page 59 of your application, the top paragraph which starts with "After", on the last sentence you've said: "From what I've understood from what they said, the operation was only partially successful." Will you be able maybe just to explain, what do you mean "from what they said, the operation was partially successful"? MR HANTON By that I mean, Mr Chairperson, that it didn't go according to the original planning, that things went wrong. MR MARIBANA What went wrong actually? MR HANTON The fact that instead of just having the explosion, other things happened. MR MARIBANA Other things like what, Mr Hanton? MR HANTON Mr Chairperson, as explained by the other applicants, the shooting of people at the target. MR MARIBANA Thank you Mr Chair, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARIBANA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Mr Hanton, you've stated in your application to us that you are in fact an Inkatha supporter, could you confirm whether you were in fact an IFP supporter at the time that this incident took place? MR HANTON No, Mr Chairperson, at the time I was a supporter of the National Party. MS PATEL Alright. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Any further questions? MR NEL I've got no re-examination, thank you, Mr Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL JUDGE KHAMPEPE I have no questions for Mr Hanton. ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you, you're excused. MR NEL Thank you, Mr Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is that all the applicants? Anybody going to call any witnesses in support of the applicants' cases? Mr Maribana, what do you propose to do? MR MARIBANA Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, at this stage, on behalf of the victims I've got instructions from two of the victims, Mr Chairperson, that they would like to give testimony before this Honourable Committee. Just ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, call them. MR MARIBANA Firstly, I will call Funi Steven Lesole. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Won't you just spell that for us, Mr Maribana. The surname as well as the name. MR MARIBANA Funi: F-u-n-i, Steven: S-t-e-v-e-n, and Lesole: L-e-s-o-l-e. CHAIRPERSON L-a? MR MARIBANA L-e, Mr Chairperson, Lesole. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Lesole. MR MARIBANA That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE Excuse, Mr Chairperson, before we proceed we need earpieces if he's going to give evidence in his native language. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lesole, which language would you prefer to use? MR LESOLE I'll speak Setswana. CHAIRPERSON Very well. FUNI STEVEN LESOLE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR MARIBANA As it pleases, Mr Chairman. Mr Lesole, it is correct that in 1988 you were a member of ANC. MR LESOLE That is correct. MR MARIBANA And it is correct that on the 11th day of December 1988, you were in Botswana at Ramatlabana. MR LESOLE It was on the 10th of December. I was at Diratapeng. MR MARIBANA Mr Lesole, let us say in December, or more particular, at the time of the attack, were you at that place that you have just mentioned, Diratapeng, in Botswana? MR LESOLE That is correct. MR MARIBANA And there is an incident which took place, whereby you were attacked by the Security officers, do you still remember that? MR LESOLE Yes, I do. MR MARIBANA And it is correct that you were one of the people who were in structure Y on that day, or in the evening of the attack. MR LESOLE That is correct. MR MARIBANA And during consultation you indicated that you would like to put some of the things before this Honourable Committee, which you feel that they might be important to help the Committee when it makes a finding, is that so? MR LESOLE That is correct. MR MARIBANA And just to confirm that it is correct that you don't dispute or put in dispute the fact that the said where you were on the day in question, was used as a transit house. MR LESOLE That is correct. MR MARIBANA And there are a few things in order for us to put this thing clearly. I want us to tackle these things in category - I mean in categorical order. Firstly we'll start with the herd boys. Do you still remember the names of the herd boys in this particular incident? MR LESOLE I knew only one boy and the other one who came to visit this young boy. MR MARIBANA And then what is the name of the boy who came to visit at that place? MR LESOLE His name was Rapula. MR MARIBANA And this Rapula, how can you tell this Honourable Committee about his role in politics? MR LESOLE On our side as members of the ANC, he did not give any assistance to us, so we just saw him as a visitor at that house. MR MARIBANA So if one understands you correctly, that he wasn't involved in politics? MR LESOLE He was never involved in politics. MR MARIBANA And is this boy, Rapula, the one who was killed in the attack? MR LESOLE That is correct, he was killed. MR MARIBANA Okay. Now let us go back to the herd boy you said you know, what is his name? MR LESOLE His name was Kuntakana(?). MR MARIBANA And then, what was his role at that time? As far as politics are concerned. MR LESOLE We used him to send him to go and have a look for us at what was happening near the borders. MR MARIBANA Okay. And then there was this woman who was seen at the transit house, what is her name? MR LESOLE Her name was Matiko Anna Lesole. MR MARIBANA What was her role as far as politics were concerned at that stage? CHAIRPERSON Was she family to you? MR LESOLE She was my mother. MR MARIBANA And then my questions was, what role did she play at that particular time? MR LESOLE Her duty was to welcome the people and assist the people who were coming from Zimbabwe, into South Africa. MR MARIBANA Okay. Now let us go to the events which took place in the evening on Sunday. How many ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE May I interpose, Mr Maribana. By reference to people, are you referring to ANC activists? MR LESOLE Yes, that's correct, I'm referring to the people who were coming from the training from other countries and coming into South Africa. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you, Mr Maribana. MR MARIBANA Thank you, Madam Chairperson. So I was just saying you know, let us go to the events which took place, Sunday in the evening. How many MK members or ANC people were in structure Y? MR LESOLE We were three in that structure. MR MARIBANA And do you still remember their names and if so, may you be able to give their names to this Honourable Committee? MR LESOLE It was Moshengu, Sidwell and myself, apart from Kuntakana. CHAIRPERSON You, Moshengu and ...? MR LESOLE And Sidwell. MR MARIBANA And during our consultation when I explained to you the evidence before this Honourable Committee, that there was evidence which says one person went out to urinate, do you still remember who was that person? MR LESOLE It was myself. MR MARIBANA And may you be able maybe in your own words to tell this Honourable Committee that from the time when you went out, what did you observe and what have you done? MR LESOLE When I went outside to urinate I saw white people outside, amongst them one of them said "there he is, let's get him." He was saying that in Afrikaans. The other one patted me on my shoulder. I shouted and I was informing the people who were in the house, I was making them aware. I was not dressed at that time. Then after he has patted me on my shoulder, I ran into the house. I had an AK47 in my room and I went to fetch that AK47, and I peeped through the widow at the side facing the dam. I realised that they were lighting torches and then I shot towards that light and I told Kuntakana to ran with me. We ran outside together with Kuntakana and we fled. After that, I realised that the people who were in the main house, that is my mother and my father, were standing at the door. I shouted at them, I told them that we are being attacked by the whites, and they also started shooting with bazookas. That is white people. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And where were you when they started shooting with bazookas? Were you outside the two-roomed structure which has been referred to as Y? MR LESOLE I was outside, just next to the main house. I also started shooting at them, but I only had one magazine with me at that time because my other bags were in the other room where Moshengu and others were sleeping. So I didn't have time to run into that room. As I was shooting at them - I continued shooting at them, enabling the people who were in the main house to run away. But these people were shooting with other guns, very powerful guns that I didn't know which types of guns they were, but they were very powerful. Then I realised that Rapula was scared and he ran towards the house again. When he ran back to the house, they continued shooting at him ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON To which house? MR LESOLE He was running from the family house and he ran back to the family house again. After I finished my magazines they were continuing shooting, but at that time they had not yet demolished the house and the other group entered the house and the other group was also attacking the other part of the house. Then from the main house I could hear Rapula shouting. I heard two shots from the main house. ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE Did you hear what he was saying as he was shouting? MR LESOLE He was just screaming. He wasn't saying anything, he was just screaming. And the other one entered the house in which I was sleeping and he continued shooting there. He shot three times in that house. ...(intervention) MR MARIBANA And at that stage, how far were you from the premises, structure X and Y? MR LESOLE I was next to the place that we used for cooking. MR MARIBANA Okay, you may proceed. And then? MR LESOLE And then I saw the main house burning, the thatched house burning. When I realised that I ran back. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Was the main house made of thatch? MR LESOLE That is correct. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And was there also a rondawel just behind the main house? MR LESOLE That is correct, there was also a rondawel which we used as a kitchen. JUDGE KHAMPEPE When you first saw the main house burning, what was the state of the rondawel? Was it also burning at the about the same time? MR LESOLE No, it was not yet burning. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you. MR LESOLE And after that I heard the bomb from the house in which we were sleeping. After that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Wait now before you carry on. You ran back to the main house, then what happened? MR LESOLE No, I did not run back to the main house, I was just next to the two structures and I was watching as all these things were happening. JUDGE KHAMPEPE During this period of the shooting, where was Moshengu and Sidwell? Did you have an opportunity to observe whether they actually ran out of the Y structure? MR LESOLE They did not manage to escape, because I only heard them cocking their firearms but I didn't see them going outside and I only saw the white people running into that house where they were sleeping. MR MARIBANA Okay you heard the bomb and then the structure in which you were sleeping was destroyed. Do you still remember as to what happened to the people, more in particular Sidwell and Moshengu who were still there? MR LESOLE In that room where I was sleeping I only heard three bullets, so I don't know what happened to Sidwell and Moshengu. After the white people had left, I went back and that's when I realised what had happened to them. When I came back I saw Sidwell, he was still inside the house next to the door. And then I went back to the house that caught fire, and in that house I could see a person, but he was already burnt. I could see that it was a person who was lying there, and the other girl who was present showed me Moshengu. I removed all the bricks which were on top of Moshengu and I realised that he was still alive at that time. From there I went to get the donkey cart so that we could run away, because I was afraid of the Botswana soldiers. CHAIRPERSON What happened to Moshengu, you took him with? MR LESOLE Yes, I did take him with me. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Have you been able to establish the identity of the person who was burnt beyond recognition inside the main house? MR LESOLE Yes, I later learnt that it was Rapula, and I knew that he ran into that house. He used to sleep with the parents in that house. MR MARIBANA Thank you, Mr Chairperson, that is all from the witness, Mr Lesole. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARIBANA CHAIRPERSON Have you got any questions? MR NEL I've got no questions for the victims. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Mr van der Merwe, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE Yes, Mr Chairperson, just one or two. Mr Lesole, your mother and father, as the people who this property belonged to - I take it this was their house. Am I correct in saying that? MR LESOLE It belonged to a person who was working there. That is my father. MR VAN DER MERWE Was your mother and father active supporters of the ANC at that stage? MR LESOLE My parents were supporters of the ANC. My mother came to work with that man there and my mother used to stay with my father in Mafikeng and then she went to Botswana to stay with a certain man there and work with him. MR VAN DER MERWE Did they move there with the express intention of assisting in the struggle at that stage? Is the reason why she moved there to assist in the struggle? MR LESOLE That is correct, Chairperson, they moved with the intention to help the ANC with its struggle, until the whole family moved out there after this operation, then they went back to Mafikeng. MR VAN DER MERWE The herd boy, Kuntakana, was he family of yours of how did he fit in, where did he come from? MR LESOLE He was not a family, but he was a son to a man who was working there. MR VAN DER MERWE So was he a South African citizen or a Botswana citizen? MR LESOLE He was a Botswana citizen. MR VAN DER MERWE Your mother and father obviously realised that taking part in the struggle in the way that they assisted the struggle at that stage, that their lives were in danger and at risk, cooperating like this and making this transit facility available to the ANC and their cadres at that their stage. Am I correct? MR LESOLE I would not know and again, I would not speak on their behalf, but I believed they knew because when they participated in the struggle they knew that they were enemies to the white people. MR VAN DER MERWE Well let me put it this way. You expected attacks on that facility earlier already, am I correct to say that? MR LESOLE No, Chairperson, I did not have any expectation for an attack because we did not hope to be attacked in Botswana, but we knew that we would be attacked in South Africa. MR VAN DER MERWE The premises - whenever there were cadres from Umkhonto on these premises, there would be firearms and weapons, am I correct to say that? So the people were always armed when they came through there, or most of the time. MR LESOLE They did not come armed, but I would be the one who would be armed, then I would hand over the arms to them when they arrive. MR VAN DER MERWE So you were the source of supplying them with weapons and arms as they entered South Africa, am I correct to say that? MR LESOLE No, Chairperson, I would not give them to enter South Africa, they would only use those arms to guard the house and when they infiltrate South Africa I would not give them those arms. Those arms were only used to protect the premises. MR VAN DER MERWE So you had arms specifically assigned to yourself to protect the premises and just the transit facility. They would be given the instructions(sic) inside South Africa, so they infiltrated South Africa without arms? CHAIRPERSON Mr van der Merwe, where are we going with this? They went back to Botswana. MR VAN DER MERWE No, we're not going back to Botswana. If you look at the application or when it started, there were various attacks or - initially on transit houses. This is not what's worrying me, but at the moment to make it clear to the Committee that everybody who was present at in this house was part of -or the people who participated in the operation were part of the government and you cannot say then that some are innocent and others are more innocent. If a Defence Force attacks another country's Defence Force, you do not draw a circle around the chefs and say, we are not going to attack the chefs and only attack the soldiers. That is the point that I would like to make. But I will it there, I won't take it any further. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr van der Merwe, I personally wouldn't like to be seen to be curtailing your cross-examine, if what you are saying is intended to assist us, I would have thought that you would have limited your cross-examination on Rapula, because I don't think any other person who actually fell under the attack of the applicants, was any person other than an ANC supporter, member or activist. I think it's quite clear, that is not in dispute. I mean, from the evidence of Mr Lesole himself. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Madam Chair, I am moving in that direction. Mr Lesole just to assist in, specifically the application of Mr Hoffman in this matter, these premises I take it at night, was it well lit, was it dark, what was the situation regarding light? MR LESOLE Do you mean in the house or just around the premises? Inside the house or just in the premises? MR VAN DER MERWE Let's say both, describe both to us. Tell us how much light there was inside the house and outside the house. CHAIRPERSON Well let's put it this way ...(intervention) MR LESOLE There were no lights in the premises because it was in a rural area, so at night it would dark. So there would be no lights outside the houses. CHAIRPERSON Rapula you say was a friend of the herdsman. MR LESOLE Yes, he was a friend to Kuntakana. CHAIRPERSON Did he come there often? MR LESOLE That is correct, I used to see him at that place, though he would not come on a daily basis. CHAIRPERSON Age-wise, was he in the same age range more-or-less, as the herdsman? MR LESOLE I am not able to testify on the age groupings. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) similar? More-or-less. MR LESOLE Yes, that is correct, Chairperson, on my observation they would be on the same age. ADV BOSMAN More-or-less how old were they? MR LESOLE I would estimate their age, 14 to 15 years old. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON And do you know whether Rapula knew that Kuntakana went to have a look out for you at the border? MR LESOLE I don't think he knew, because I instructed Kuntakana that it should be a secret. CHAIRPERSON And what time of day did this incident occur? MR LESOLE I don't understand, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What time of day or night did this attack occur? MR LESOLE It would be around ten past twelve. CHAIRPERSON Now I don't know if I heard you correctly, did you testify that Rapula slept at that homestead sometimes? MR LESOLE Yes, he used to sleep there sometimes because he used to visit there. He used to stay at Klapeng, which is quite a distance from the place of the incident. CHAIRPERSON Would he sleep at the main house or at the house that you occupied? MR LESOLE They used to sleep at the main house. At that particular day I requested Kuntakana to sleep at that house because there were some people. So he went to sleep at Kuntakana's(sic) room. CHAIRPERSON I see. Would you say that Rapula, in the circumstances that prevailed there that night without lights, could have been mistaken for Kuntakana? MR LESOLE I'm not sure, Chairperson, it could have happened because they were of the same age. CHAIRPERSON Similar builds? MR LESOLE Yes, they were similar in height and it was dark, that you would be able to make a mistake. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And usually Mr Kuntakana used to sleep in the main house. MR LESOLE That is correct, Chairperson, Kuntakana used to sleep at the main house. CHAIRPERSON Are there any other questions, Mr van der Merwe? MR VAN DER MERWE No, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Mr Jansen, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN A few, thank you Chair. Mr Lesole, what is your present age? MR LESOLE I'm 35 years old, Chairperson. MR JANSEN Can you remember when you joined the ANC? MR LESOLE I started working with the ANC from 1984, then I went for training in 1986. In '84 I was working with the ANC, without training, helping my mother to help the ANC members, and then I was supposed to go for training in 1986, then I trained in 1986. MR JANSEN Am I correct, I'm not exactly sure of your birthday, but in 1984 you would have been round about 18 or 19 years old? MR LESOLE I don't remember how old I was at that time. MR JANSEN What year were you born? MR LESOLE I was born in 1965. MR JANSEN In 1984 were you helping your mother with the infiltration of ANC members into South Africa? MR LESOLE That is correct, Chairperson, I was helping the ANC members to infiltrate the members of the ANC, because there were those who were not able to communicate in Setswana, therefore I would help to infiltrate them during the night with routes I identified to go through Mafikeng. MR JANSEN Now you mentioned another man who was living in the main house, can you remember what his name was? MR LESOLE Yes, that is Mr Tabane(sic) MR JANSEN Just to avoid any confusion, he was not your father, was he? MR LESOLE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JANSEN Do you know a first name, can you remember what his first name was? MR LESOLE Yes, that is correct, I knew his first name. MR JANSEN What was that? MR LESOLE That Tawana Molema. Molema is the surname, Tawana is the name, the first name. MR JANSEN Was that his ordinary residence, or did he also have another place where he was ordinarily resident? MR LESOLE That was his house, and again he had another house in Mafikeng. MR JANSEN Did his wife live in Mafikeng, in the house in Mafikeng? MR LESOLE His wife has since died, because when I started working with them I found him not having a wife. MR JANSEN But who was living in the house, was other family of his living in the house in Mafikeng? MR LESOLE It was myself and Mr Tawana and Kuntakana and Kuntekana's brother who were staying in that house. But I knew that he had three children and they were staying in the house in Mafikeng, they were not staying in Botswana. In Botswana he was staying with Kuntakana only. MR JANSEN Do you recall, or were you at any stage informed that Kuntakana had been arrested or had been interrogated by members of the South African Security Forces? MR LESOLE I remember, Chairperson, because after he was detained he later informed me that he was arrested and then he was beaten by white people and he was told to work with them. MR JANSEN Yes. Now you surely, at that stage, must have realised that there is a very good chance that the South African Security Forces were observing that house ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Jansen, does it really matter whether this witness realised that or not? In terms of the Act. MR JANSEN Well, Mr Chair ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Let's assume that the worse scenario for your case is that he didn't know, as he's testified, that he was in danger, does it really matter? MR JANSEN Mr Chairman, I will obviously argue that it does not, so I'm afraid that there might be - I would like to also argue a further point, is that from an objective point of view, there was a danger that was known to the inhabitants of that house and ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well does it matter that they knew or not? MR JANSEN Well I think it assists my - I don't think it matters at the end of the day, Mr Chairman, but I think it does assist my case if they did know. CHAIRPERSON I think my colleague, Ms Khampepe, made it quite clear to Mr van der Merwe what the position was. MR JANSEN ...(indistinct), Chair ...(indistinct - no microphone). Sorry, Chair, if it's not of crucial importance, I will not proceed with that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I don't want to sound like I'm stopping you, but ...(intervention) MR JANSEN No, I accept that. CHAIRPERSON ... it's rather - one doesn't know where this is going to, given the evidence before us already and what has been conceded. In fact, all this has been conceded in your case. MR JANSEN Yes. No, I accept that, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, that is my last question, I don't think it's inadmissible, so maybe if he can just answer it because I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON I hope that's not your case that fell there. Have you got any questions, Sir? MR CORNELIUS I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Just one or two questions, Mr Chairperson. Mr Lesole, the arms and - the AK47s, the arms that you kept at the premises, and I think you also mentioned handgrenades, is that correct, that you kept there for protecting the transit facility - did I understand your evidence correctly? MR LESOLE That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Now where were these arms and handgrenades kept in that facility? MR LESOLE I kept them at the house where I would put these people to sleep in. I would inform them that they should have those arms to protect themselves whilst they were still in the transit house. MR LAMEY But in what did you keep it? Was it ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well Mr Lamey, he says at the house, does it matter whether it was in a cupboard or under a bed or wherever? MR LAMEY Alright. You mean - I don't know whether you've seen the sketch plan here, do you mean the structure Y, not the main house? JUDGE KHAMPEPE I think his evidence-in-chief was that it was kept in structure one, and to be precise, in the room that was used on that night, by Sidwell and Moshengu. MR LAMEY And the arms and handgrenades were continuously kept in that structure, is that correct? MR LESOLE Yes, we'd have them there all the time. I would only remove them there when I go to Lebatse or in another place, but if there are people in that house, I would just leave them there for them to use them to protect themselves and the structures. MR LAMEY Now what prevented a visitor to those premises, like Rapula, who often visited the premises, to enter structure Y? JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Lamey, what is the purpose of this line of cross-examination? We have already I think, suggested what is of trouble to the Panel, and that is the justification for the killing of Rapula, and not the manner in which Rapula was killed. And that's the only issue which I think can be traversed by the legal representatives acting on behalf of the applicants. Otherwise I don't think there is anything which is in dispute, because the evidence from the victims is supporting the applicants' case. MR LAMEY No, I fully appreciate that and I do - I also just wanted to try and establish also perhaps knowledge which Rapula himself had about what was going on at that transit facility. But if it doesn't take it any ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey, perhaps, I think in - and I don't want to sound subjective, I think you'd do your case a disservice and a disfavour if you traversed that line, because you may just get the wrong answers. It's dangerous territory you're traversing. You've heard what my colleagues have to say. But I leave it in your hands. MR LAMEY Well as it pleases you, Chairperson, I won't take the matter further. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr Hugo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman, just two aspects. Mr Lesole, you testified that you're a trained MK soldier, and I take it that when you referred to a bazooka, can you just give us some explanation of what your understanding is of a bazooka. Let me rather try and shorten the situation. There was a dispute about an RPG7 that was taken ostensibly to go and plant it at the scene of the accident, is your understanding that the bazooka and the RP7, that they're the same thing? MR LESOLE Yes, they are the same, Chairperson. MR HUGO And your recollection is that there was a bazooka or an RPG7 that was used during this incident. MR LESOLE It was the bazooka which was lying on the ground. MR HUGO Ja, but you testified that they started shooting with the bazooka, so your recollection is that they actually used it to shoot during the incident? MR LESOLE Yes, they used only bazookas during the incident, then they used other kinds of firearms when they entered the structures. MR HUGO And then just one last aspect, which is really more an interesting point. The death certificate in respect of Mr Rapula, makes mention of the fact that he died due to asphyxiation or suffocation, did you notice any bullet wounds on him afterwards? CHAIRPERSON The body was burnt, isn't it? MR LESOLE How would I see the bullet wounds whilst he was burnt. I would not be able to see bullet wounds on the chest, body. MR HUGO Very well, no further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination ... MS PATEL Honourable Chairperson ... CHAIRPERSON Oh I'm sorry, I keep on forgetting you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL That's fine. There's just one curious aspect that I think baffles me in this case, Mr Lesole, do you have any idea how the main house caught alight? Did you happen to see how that happened? MR LESOLE The way these people used the bombs, I think the fire was started by the bombs. I'm not sure what kind of bombs were used. MR HUGO Ja, absolutely, alright. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Any further questions, Mr Maribana? MR MARIBANA No further questions, Mr Chairman. JUDGE KHAMPEPE I have no questions for Mr Lesole. ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I just want to know the full names of all the victims please. You are Funi Steven Lesole. MR LESOLE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Where can we contact you? Have you got an address? MR LESOLE Yes, I do have an address. CHAIRPERSON Can you give it to me please. MR LESOLE Zone 2, T60, Galeshewe, Kimberley. CHAIRPERSON Spell it. MR LESOLE Galeshewe: G-a-l-e-s-h-e-w-e. CHAIRPERSON Any other victims? Your mother. MR LESOLE My mother is staying Mafikeng, in Motlapeng Section. CHAIRPERSON Well what's her full names? MR LESOLE Matiko Anna Lesole. CHAIRPERSON What's her address? MR LESOLE She's staying in Motlapeng village. I don't have her full address. CHAIRPERSON Are you willing to accept a postal address at your address on her behalf? I understand that we do have her address. What is it? MS PATEL Honourable Chairperson, I'll just check the record, we've got full details of all the victims, I can supply it to you later if you so wish. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Then you are excused. MR JANSEN Mr Chairman, if I may interrupt, sorry. There was mentioned by this witness of a girl that was also on the scene, I'd forgotten to ask the name of that girl, because it may be relevant for the portion of our seeking amnesty in respect of the attempted murder charges. CHAIRPERSON What is the name of the girl that was there that you referred to? MR LESOLE Keitumetse Moroke. CHAIRPERSON Spell it please. MR LESOLE K-e-i-t-u-m-e-t-s-e, that is Keitumetse - Moroke: M-o-r-o-k-e. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you, you're excused. MR LESOLE Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Maribana, have you got any more witnesses who may add to what this witness - I'm hoping though that you call nobody that's just going to repeat what he said. MR MARIBANA Mr Chairperson, I've got one witness, Moshengu. It is my instructions that he just wants to clear the air, because it was published in the media that died on the day of the incident. CHAIRPERSON He wants to prove that he's alive. MR MARIBANA That is correct, Mr Chairperson. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And assuage the guilt of the applicants. CHAIRPERSON Ja, show the applicants they did such a bad job. What is his name? MR MARIBANA Steven Bahumi, and then is nickname, or MK name is Moshengu. Bahumi: B-a-h-u-m-i. CHAIRPERSON Bahumi? MR MARIBANA Bahumi. That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Mr Bahumi, what language would you prefer to use? MR BAHUMI English. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objection to the taking of the oath? STEVEN BAHUMI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. What do you want to tell us? MR BAHUMI The only thing which I want to tell the Committee, is that it is true we were - I was part and parcel of that incident, of the raid which took place in 1988. It is true it was a transit house which we were using. When we were coming from other countries we were passing through in infiltrating the country, yes. But the only thing like my attorney said, that I only wanted to clarify the Panel, that they must be knowing that on that day, like the applicants are claiming that I've died on that scene, because I've heard that on the media. I only wanted to be informing the Panel that no, I'm still alive, there's nothing like I have died. CHAIRPERSON I think they all understand that now. Tell me, you were injured that day? Were you injured? MR BAHUMI Ja, it was braises and those rebels - my ribs were - but I went for an X-Ray in Zimbabwe. CHAIRPERSON Was it okay? MR BAHUMI Ja. CHAIRPERSON What are you doing now? MR BAHUMI I'm in National Intelligence Agency. CHAIRPERSON Here in Pretoria? MR BAHUMI No, in Free State Province. CHAIRPERSON Is that all you wanted to tell us? MR BAHUMI Ja, I only wanted to clarify that. CHAIRPERSON I hope everybody accepts that the man is alive now. Is there any cross-examination? Are there any questions? MR NEL No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL MR VAN DER MERWE No questions, Mr Chairman, except to say that I think there's still people that think it might be his twin brother. CHAIRPERSON Mr Jansen? MR JANSEN No questions, thank you Chair. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Chair, no questions. MR LAMEY Chairperson yes, I wanted to say it's hard to believe, but I won't attack his credibility. CHAIRPERSON Thank you so much. MR BAHUMI Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON It remains then for us to just go through - is that all, Maribana? MR MARIBANA That is all, Mr Chairman, but I would like to put on record that Kuntakana is available, as well as Manteko. I just want to place on record that they are present. CHAIRPERSON Fair enough. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Who was available? MR MARIBANA Kuntakana, the herd boy and Manteko ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON I just want to get a list of the context of what the applicants are. Mr Hugo, have you got a list of what your client is actually applying for? MR HUGO Yes, Mr Chairman, if you could just bear with me. CHAIRPERSON Well while you're looking - Mr Lamey, have you got any? I think you gave us that. MR LAMEY Chairperson, I've already covered that. CHAIRPERSON You also gave it. MR NEL Yes, Mr Chairman, I covered that in the evidence. CHAIRPERSON Mr van der Merwe? MR VAN DER MERWE Mr Chairman, I don't know if I gave it to you in regard to all my clients, may I just run through it for your assistance? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE ADDRESSES As far as the involvement of - let me start at the top: Johan Hendrik Tait - he just went to the fence, so I would say that his role in this matter would amount to conspiracy to murder ... JUDGE KHAMPEPE How many counts? MR VAN DER MERWE That would be - well they thought there were three people, plus possibly three more. It's very difficult to draw a distinction between structure Y and structure X. I think in the planning stages anything was possible, they didn't plan to specifically kill the people, but it was foreseen ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Conspiracy to commit an undetermined number of murders. MR VAN DER MERWE That is probably the correct way to word it, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And then two murders? MR VAN DER MERWE Two murders, two attempted murders, malicious damage to property, as well as arson. CHAIRPERSON How does an MITP come in here? MR VAN DER MERWE I'm throwing it in as part of the net, Mr Chairman. I will leave it at that, I will stick to arson. CHAIRPERSON How many counts of arson would you say there are? Three as I count them, maybe more, I don't know. MR VAN DER MERWE It's difficult to distinguish because I don't think it is actually very clear as to how structure X caught alight. The last witness, or the second-last witness indicated he thought it might have started as a result of the explosion or the explosives ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well whatever, the probabilities that it was caused as a result of the attack. MR VAN DER MERWE The actions of the members of the South African Police. CHAIRPERSON Ja. And as I recall there were three actual independent structures that caught alight, am I wrong? Three. The main house, one, the structure behind the main house and the structure in which these two witnesses were housed. MR VAN DER MERWE As I have it, and I maybe I neglected to put it, structure Y, from what I've determined, was that there was never a thatched roof on it and there was nothing in it that could burn. So it was only structure X and the rondawel that could burn. Those are the only two ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What about the main house? MR VAN DER MERWE That's the main house, structure X is the main house. Y is the facility that housed the fighters. CHAIRPERSON The actual transit house? MR VAN DER MERWE Ja. Well that's the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Was that not burnt? MR VAN DER MERWE No, that was half demolished by the explosion, but it didn't burn. CHAIRPERSON Well the explosion is arson, isn't it? MR VAN DER MERWE Well it was the bomb explosion. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say arson, but I mean I suppose if it causes a fire, that could be - it could get there. I will accept that, because I mean the last witness is a person who survived out of that building, so it's quite clear that that building didn't burn. He was taken out of the building. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR VAN DER MERWE And then the last one would be the illegal possession of firearms, ammunition and/or explosives, whichever the Committee might find. Plus then also, in this instance, Mr Tait did not cross the border, but he was assisting other people to cross the border illegally. The exact same reasons would be also for Wilhelm Riaan Bellingan, because he was also just at the border post. CHAIRPERSON Ja. MR VAN DER MERWE And then as far as Mr Hoffman is concerned, I think it will also remain the same. The difference being that he was actually on the scene and was an active member of the execution of this attack. CHAIRPERSON But then he would be, in his case, not by assisting others to cross the border, he in fact crossed the border. MR VAN DER MERWE He in fact crossed. Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Jansen. MR JANSEN Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Chair ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. MR JANSEN Sorry, Mr Chairman. I'll hand it up to you in due course, I just want to read the way I frame how amnesty is sought. CHAIRPERSON Well you might as well hand it up without reading it because that's what I'm asking you to tell me, what your client's applying for. ...(indistinct) go by that. MR JANSEN ADDRESSES Yes. It's for the murder of the two deceased, Mapua and Thika, and I have the full names here, then secondly, the attempted murder of - and initially I had the words "all occupants of the dwellings attacked by the applicants on 11 December at Diratapeng, Botswana" but I've inserted the names at the moment, so instead of all occupants of the dwellings, one can say the attempted murder of, and list the six people of whom there is evidence before the Committee. And then thirdly, I've just stated in very general terms: "All other statutory or common law offences or delicts committed during, and as a result of the planning and execution of the attack." and then just give the details of the attack. I know as far as these broad - or let me put it this way, the different or the many different offences and delicts that can flow from an incident like that, it would appear that different Committees have different ways of dealing with it. I leave that in your hands. I was also reminded that Mr Ras also did testify to an assault on Mr, it would then have been Kuntakana Molema, in the run-up to the, or in the process of the surveillance of the house at the time that he was arrested by Mr Ras. I'll ask for assault then in respect of Mr Kuntakana, during ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Was that part of his original application? MR JANSEN No, but it was part of his evidence. CHAIRPERSON Well he didn't make an application for that assault, did he? MR JANSEN Well Mr Chairman, I'll just have to check that, but as far as I remember it wasn't - that action ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well check it, that's what I'm asking you. MR JANSEN Yes. But Mr Chairman, again the way I have understood the process to have developed, is that if - as long as one can bring one's offence more-or-less within the ambit of one's original application, Committees have been willing to grant amnesty for matters which are not strictly speaking within the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Look, he didn't commit this assault on the day of the attack. MR JANSEN No, no, it was ... CHAIRPERSON So it's a separate incident, so it can't be fished out of a lake to come within the ambits of the application. MR JANSEN No, I accept Mr Chair, that at some or other stage there must be a line ...(indistinct - no microphone) JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Ja, precisely. MR JANSEN ...(indistinct - no microphone) submit that this would be sufficiently linked to the planning of the incident ... Sorry Mr Chairman. My submission would simply be that that assault would be sufficiently linked to the incident as a whole. If you disagree ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON So be it. MR JANSEN So be it, yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE I don't think it's linked, Mr Jansen, I think that you are stretching yourself too far. CHAIRPERSON Well let's leave it like that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE If I recall the evidence of Mr Ras, there was an attempt to carry out an operation with members of Special Forces, and this incident would be linked to that incident more than the incident which later transpired, but it wasn't part of the planning of this operation that Mr Thika was assaulted. MR JANSEN Not in a direct sense, but I also submit that it wasn't in a direct sense linked to that other attack, Chair, I think it was simply linked in a direct way to the process of gaining information on those structures there and ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You know Mr Jansen, when I used to practice I was told by one of my clients who claimed that he was assaulted, he said - you know he was arrested a couple of times by the Security Police in the area where I used to practice and as a matter of introduction he would get what they call "'n snop klap", isn't this what happened? Just as a matter of introduction, to show who's boss. MR JANSEN Yes, I accept that it's almost legend, yes. CHAIRPERSON And it had nothing to do with whether this transit house was a transit house and whether it should be destroyed and whatever else happened, not so? MR JANSEN No certainly it's a - one falls into that debate of what is necessary and what is not necessary and what can be regarded as political ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well I think you summed it up just now, that look, if I disagree with you, so be it, and let's leave it like that. You've made your submissions, I've heard it and you've done your duty. MR JANSEN Thank you, Chair. If I can then just - I'll hand this to you just after the ... CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius, have you got submissions on this? MR CORNELIUS ADDRESSES Yes, thank you Mr Chair. It will obviously be as far as the bomb inspector is concerned, or the bomb expert: conspiracy to murder; two murders; ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Two attempted murders. MR CORNELIUS Yes, the attempted murders I would also include all six, because we didn't know what would happen to the extent of the bomb, it could have killed anybody on the premises. One arson of the lapa area. And then I've still got a bit of difficulty with malicious damage to property. If the bomb in fact did cause the fire, then obviously it will be arson of the two other structures as well. CHAIRPERSON Well if the bomb would have even scorched the wall, then that's arson. MR CORNELIUS Yes, if that is the Committee's view, I agree with that. And then obviously: all contraventions under the Act on Explosives; all delicts - as you've indicated already. And then the illegal entering and crossing of a border. Which I think is part and parcel of my whole amnesty application. Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hugo. MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. We agree with the list that Mr Jansen has just handed up, except that - that's in respect of both Mr de Kock and Mr Radebe, Simon Radebe - I'm not sure whether defeating the ends of justice was contained in that list. We're also applying for that. Mr Chairman, and then, I suppose it's not really necessary to itemise it, but the possession of the landmine that was taken across, would also form part and parcel of what we're seeking amnesty for. CHAIRPERSON Well I was thinking of putting that under the explosives ...(indistinct). Mr Hugo, it didn't cross my mind about the defeating the ends of justice, but where was that crime, or how was that crime committed? MR HUGO Well we would argue, Mr Chairman, that there was a duty on them to disclose ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON As policemen? MR HUGO As policemen. ... to disclose that they were involved in an illegal operation etcetera, and that they were crossing ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Did they testify at any hearing or tribunal to that effect? MR HUGO Mr Chairman, amongst the issues that came to the fore with the Harms Commission, for instance. CHAIRPERSON And they denied it under oath. MR HUGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Ja, then that will ... MR HUGO Thank you. Mr Chairman, Mr de Kock has just made me aware of the fact that maybe there was another one, and that's perjury, in the sense that during the Harms Commission they were explicitly asked whether they partook in these sort-of operations. ADV BOSMAN Are you now referring to Mr de Kock and Mr Radebe both? MR HUGO Only Mr de Kock in respect of the perjury incident. ADV BOSMAN Yes, but you used the term "we" - or "they" actually. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Have we come to the stage of argument now? No more evidence. Mr Maribana, what's your attitude towards the applications? Or let me ask Ms Patel first. What's your attitude to the applications? MS PATEL Well Honourable Chairperson, in light of the concessions that have been made by the victims, I don't believe I have any argument in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Would you agree that this is a case for granting? MS PATEL Yes. NO ARGUMENT BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Maribana, have you got any argument or any reason to submit that it should be refused? MR MARIBANA IN ARGUMENT As it pleases the Honourable Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I've got instructions, more in particular from Mr Abraham Thika, the father of Rapula Thika, Mr Chairperson, to oppose amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Only on that one, or? MR MARIBANA Only on that matter, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ja, what do you have to say about that? MR MARIBANA Mr Chairperson, on reasons that Rapula Thika, Mr Chairperson, wasn't involved in politics at all, and it is my humble submission to that, that fact wasn't put into dispute by the applicants. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MARIBANA Mr Chairperson, I've just stated that that fact wasn't put in dispute by the applicants, that Rapula was involved in politics, Mr Chairperson. I won't drag it further, Mr Chairperson, I'll leave it there. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, we don't need to hear any other argument from anybody else. This matter is adjourned. All that is left for me is to thank everybody for showing interest in the process, and to thank especially the logistics people and the interpreters, who often work to exhaustion, and to those people who have provided the food for us to survive. And those who have travelled far to attend this hearing, I also wish to thank them for the effort made. MR VAN DER MERWE Excuse me Chairman, there's something that I neglected on behalf of Mr Hoffman and I just want to shortly address something to the family of Rapula, specifically. His instruction to me is - unfortunately he had to leave urgently on business - is that despite the fact that he believes that he should qualify for amnesty in this matter, he does apologise to the family of the deceased, Rapula, because of the fact that this was an innocent boy, as was rightly put by the attorney for the family, who was caught up in the crossfire in this incident, and that he wishes to express his sincere regret to the family of this boy. He cannot unfortunately take it further. He cannot make this boy come to life again, but he does wish to express his sincere condolences with the family. Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON With that then we'll adjourn this hearing. HEARING ADJOURNS