amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 2000-05-08 MIDDELBURG, MPUMALANGA 1 RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE AM5788/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54155&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200508mi.htm CHAIRPERSON It is Monday 8th May 2000, it's a sitting of the Amnesty Committee held at Middelburg in Mpumalanga. The panel is presided over by myself, my name is Denzil Potgieter. I'm assisted by Advocate Sandi and Mr J B Sibanyoni. The matter before us is the amnesty application of R N Mahlakaone, amnesty reference AM5788/97. For the record on behalf of the applicant? MR KOOPEDI My name is Brian Koopedi. I appear for the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. Leader of Evidence? MS MTANGA Lulama Mtanga, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Yes Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, we are ready to proceed and may the applicant be sworn in? RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Mr Mahlakaone, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter which involves the killing of a policeman at an attack at a police station in Ntwengeni? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes. MR KOOPEDI Now the document I'm showing to you, Chairperson, page 1 of the bundle of documents. Is this your application form? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes. MR KOOPEDI And on page 8 of the same bundle of documents, this document is signed. Is this your signature? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes it's my signature. MR KOOPEDI Now at the time of this incident were you a member of a political organisation? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes I was a member of the MK. MR KOOPEDI I take it you would also have been a member of the ANC? MR MAHLAKAONE I was a member of the ANC. MR KOOPEDI When did you join the ANC? MR MAHLAKAONE I joined the ANC in 1982. MR KOOPEDI Where? MR MAHLAKAONE I joined the ANC in Zambia then I proceeded to Angola where I was doing training in military. MR KOOPEDI Did you also go to the GDR? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes after training at Angola I went to GDR. MR KOOPEDI And was this for further training? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes I was doing further training in military. MR KOOPEDI Now when were you infiltrated into South Africa? MR MAHLAKAONE I was infiltrated into South Africa in 1989. MR KOOPEDI Where were you to operate in South Africa? MR MAHLAKAONE My first mission was to operate in the North West. MR KOOPEDI And did you have occasion to come to the Eastern Transvaal? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes, after that I was sent down to North Eastern Transvaal. MR KOOPEDI You were sent down - I didn't get that? You were sent to the Eastern Transvaal? MR MAHLAKAONE I was sent to the Eastern Transvaal. MR KOOPEDI Who sent you? MR MAHLAKAONE I've been sent by the late Comrade Chris Hani. MR KOOPEDI What did he want you to do in the Eastern Transvaal? MR MAHLAKAONE In the Eastern Transvaal I was sent to come and format operational units so that we must operate effectively and so that I must even command the units. MR KOOPEDI Okay, now when you were in the Eastern Transvaal did you form this unit? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes I did form the units in the Eastern Transvaal. MR KOOPEDI Did you also train them? MR MAHLAKAONE I trained them I used them to operate in the Eastern Transvaal. MR KOOPEDI Now the attack in Ntengweni Police Station, why was this police station attacked? MR MAHLAKAONE The question of Ntengweni Police Station was that during my operation in this province I got the information that Ntengweni Police Station was used as one of the police stations which are used by the askaris to hide or to put their weapons in the area because that is part and parcel of the missions, of my mission in the Eastern Transvaal to go around and look for some of the members of askaris, especially one person who was a defected member from the MK. MR KOOPEDI And then? MR MAHLAKAONE Then I decided to launch an attack but the attack was not to harm anybody, it was only to go and confiscate the weapons that were used by the askaris. I managed to go to the police station and do some sketch, then I go back to one of my unit that actually I trusted them, especially in operations. Then I came down to Machadasdorp with the unit. During my arrival at the police station, with the orders that I gave to the members of that unit, we got to the police station. It was around 11 o'clock - midnight, or 23H00 where one member who was supposed to go through to the police station in the charge office was shot. I jumped over the fence at the back of the police station. During that time I heard a shot which was a pistol shot and I started becoming aware that no, there's somebody firing and during that time the lights of the police station was off because all my members were not having pistols, they were using machine guns, semi-machine guns and machine guns. Then I ran straight to the charge office. I found one of my members lying in front of the charge office. So then I started firing inside the charge office because one of my members was lying down who was shot. During that time there was an exchange of fire and I called one member who was a driver because the vehicle was parked in front of the police station at the gate to cover me up because I was experiencing some shots again. Unfortunately, I didn't even manage to pull off with my member who was shot. Then the member who was driving was shot on the hands again. He shouted to me, he said "I was shot". Then I kept on firing alone and then during that time there was no more, any firing from the police station when I retreated. I took the gentleman who was the driver to the vehicle. Then we drove off the scene. MR KOOPEDI Where did you go from the scene? MR MAHLAKAONE From the scene I drove to where I was having my ...(indistinct) where I put my weapons, then I drove to Jurick where I met with Comrade Hani. I informed him about the issue. Then he said to me I have to go back to Zambia in order that I must go and settle a little while. MR KOOPEDI Did you go out of the country? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes, I did go back to - I go straight to Botswana and Zimbabwe and Zimbabwe I drove to Zambia. MR KOOPEDI When did you come back to South Africa again? MR MAHLAKAONE In 1991 I came back to South Africa. MR KOOPEDI Were you arrested or was there any threat to arrest you for this incident? MR MAHLAKAONE Actually on my arrival because I came with a plan. On my arrival at the airport there started a problem where the police were running behind me but they didn't manage to get hold of me to until there was a stress intimidation between me and the police because they were already busy with my family, harassing my family. And one time I remember when I phoned a policeman in Nelspruit telling him that they must stop harassing my family because I was in hiding anyway. But there was negotiations between the ANC and the government where it was agreed that I must apprehended to the police so that they must do a test case because there was a promise that they were not going to arrest me but I must - they will give me bail and then I'll stand for a trial, I mean outside of the jail and I must apply for an amnesty. Then, during that time, the former premier of Mpumalanga, Matthew Phosa was there, Legal Adviser of the ANC. Then they brought me from Johannesburg to Middelburg Police Station where I found members of the security branch waiting for me. Then they told me that I'm under arrest. They took me to the magistrate's court here in Middelburg where I was supposed to do a statement. Then after that they took me to Belfast Magistrate's Court where I was told that I must give a bail of R1500, then the money was already issued to me, then I gave them, then they released me at the same time, yes. MR KOOPEDI Who had given you this money? MR MAHLAKAONE The money I was given by Matthew Phosa, that's from the ANC probably. MR KOOPEDI Okay, now perhaps if you could go back a little bit? The people who you were with in this attack, were they two in number? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes they were two. I was the third person. MR KOOPEDI Now who are these people, what are their names. MR MAHLAKAONE The late Comrade Solomon Lupalana Chilwane and the other gentleman was Shadrack Sakwane but he was known as Shakes. MR KOOPEDI What happened to the two gentlemen, if you know? MR MAHLAKAONE The remaining comrade during my retreat to Zambia, I gave some information that he's in the country. The last time I hear about him was that he was taken out of the country, I didn't ever see him until today. MR KOOPEDI So what you in fact say is that the one who was shot who had fell down is Solly Chilwane? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes. MR KOOPEDI Now you've told this Honourable Committee that your mission was to disarm or to rob these firearms which you knew to be in this police station. Did you ever talk about a situation where there would be resistance from the police inside? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes I gave the comrades because I was the commander of that unit, I said to them the mission of this operation is not to harm anybody but if it happened that we meet with any resistance. Any way, there was no option, it was just to shoot back or to kill people who would be resisting because during that time police were regarded as part of the repressing elements in the country. MR KOOPEDI Out of this whole exercise did you personally benefit anything? Did you get any personal gain be it material or financial? MR MAHLAKAONE That was not personal gain in any way. I know that in order to fulfil the mission of the ANC, it was not for personal gain. MR KOOPEDI So when you referred to when you said - page 5 Chairperson - on your application form that you received a benefit you actually were referring to what type of benefit? MR MAHLAKAONE The benefit that I'm talking about is for the people of South Africa because South Africa today is liberated. I worked for that, everybody now is living in a normal society. It's the benefit I'm talking about, not personal one. MR KOOPEDI As far as your memory takes you, have you told this Honourable Committee all the relevant facts relating to this matter? MR MAHLAKAONE What I've already told the Committee, I think that is what I've done, not further than that or to put some other expressions unless it may be there's other things that arise from the ...(indistinct). MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson, that will be the evidence in chief for the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA Chairperson, can I be given a minute to consult with the two policemen who were at the police station? In the evidence of the applicant there is something that contradicts what they've told me. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV SANDI Maybe they should come and sit next to you. MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, before I go on with my questions, I just want to indicate that I have consulted with the Mbata family, that is the next-of-kin of Mr Mbata who died in this incident. I have also Mr Molepi and Mr Moameye who were the colleagues of Mr Mbata and who were present at the time of this incident. The third person, Mr Maglogwane, or he was a sergeant at the time, he was notified and a notice was faxed to him. He has not attended the hearing, we don't know what his reasons are. The position of the victims is that they are not opposing this application. However, they have requested me to ask questions for clarification. CHAIRPERSON Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Mr Mahlakaone, can you give us, the victims would like to know how - what was your plan? You said you went there not to attack the people inside the police station but to disarm them, that is avoiding loss of life. How did you plan to do this? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes actually, as I was saying, the plan was not to harm anybody, it was only to disarm the police. Unfortunately it happened that we ended up in a conflict or in exchange of fire due to the fact that during the time I jumped the fence I went into the area, I heard a shot. That shot, it sounded like a pistol and I said no, my members doesn't have any pistols as far as I know. We had some semi-machine guns and a machine gun. Then I move round the building, I go straight, I find while I approached the entrance, I find that my member is lying next to the door. So I realised that this person was shot. Then I didn't retreat, I go straight because of one member, has lost his life, I have to really go in firing. MS MTANGA Mr Mahlakaone, did you do a reconnaissance of that police station? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes I did do reconnaissance MS MTANGA When did you do that? MR MAHLAKAONE It was a month before the attack because I have done the sketch and I go back to the unit, I planned with them, I showed them all the possibilities of going through to the police station. MS MTANGA And what were your observations of the police station? You said in your reconnaissance obviously you tried to avoid loss of life, you would have planned it accordingly. So what were your observations of that police station? MR MAHLAKAONE My observation was that I was expecting to get one person on the main entrance or right where they use as a charge office so that after we're holding up, I know exactly where was the safe, where they put weapons so that the person must be driven to weapon's safe and unlock the safe so that we must take all the weapons. That was the planning but it didn't happen like that. MS MTANGA Were you aware that there were other policemen who slept in that police station? MR MAHLAKAONE I was aware because I've done that reconnaissance first because there was a place where the policemen were sleeping, where they used to sleep. MS MTANGA And in your opinion, how were you going to avoid any crossfire from their side in the event that you held up this one person at the charge office? MR MAHLAKAONE As far as my knowledge is concerned is that I know that the weapons that I was having were more powerful than the weapons that they used in the police station because they were using pistols as the reconnaissance that I've done, I know that they were using pistols. That's why I took the heavier weapons. MS MTANGA You said you planned to hold up the person who would be at the charge office? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes. MS MTANGA On that day the person who was working in the charge office was Mr Mbata who died in that incident. How were you going to go about holding him up? MR MAHLAKAONE I didn't see who is that person and I don't know who that person was in the charge office. The only fact that I know is that we will find that person in the charge office. MS MTANGA How were you going to hold him up, what was your plan? MR MAHLAKAONE To hold a person up is to - you point the person with a weapon so that he must not get a chance to produce his weapon. MS MTANGA Was this done? MR MAHLAKAONE It was not done because the people who were in the police station they shot my member first. It was not done. MS MTANGA Who went into the police station first amongst your group? MR MAHLAKAONE It was the late Comrade Solly Chiwane. He go straight with the main entrance where he find that person who was - I don't know whether he was right in the charge office because I jumped over at the back of the fence. MS MTANGA You now, Mr Mahlakaone, the position of the evidence of the two policemen who were there is that one of you, one of your members, approached Mr Mbata and asked for water for their vehicle saying that they had a problem with the vehicle overheating. What I want to know, if the intention was to hold up Mr Mbata, why was it not done if the intention was to really hold him up, why was it not done at that point when they spoke to him because he was alone at the charge office? MR MAHLAKAONE So after the sum up of everything, the late Comrade Solly, if he did ask some water, unfortunately that was not the order as such. Maybe it was his initiative in order to get the person in the right place at the right corner but the fact was that he must hold him up so that I came in, we drove the person to the weapon safe. That was the only orders that I gave them. MS MTANGA Another aspect that the two policemen would like to raise with you is that they had Mr Mbata who was at the charge office and the two of them, that is Mr Maonye and Mr Malopi were sleeping and they both had no weapons with them and now they have a problem understanding your evidence that there was a shooting from their side because they believe that when Mr Mbata left to attend to this one person who needed water, somebody fired shots at him and then they heard the shots being fired at Mr Mbata. What do you say to this? MR MAHLAKAONE As I've said before that even if that person is firing from a very far point, the way I've been trying - that's why I realised that the weapons that they've used is a pistol. A pistol and a machine gun, the sound is not the same. I hear exactly that this is a pistol, it's not a machine gun. If it was my member who shot first, actually I think I've heard it the right way but I heard this is a pistol that is shooting. So fortunately now I said no, we don't have any pistol in our possession. MS MTANGA Did he get the weapons that you went to rob? MR MAHLAKAONE We didn't. MS MTANGA I have no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Have the panel any questions? ADV SANDI Yes just a few here. Mr Mahlakaone, whose vehicle was this? MR MAHLAKAONE The vehicle that was used it was a hired vehicle from some other agency in Johannesburg. ADV SANDI Did you take that vehicle back to the agency? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes I did take that vehicle back. ADV SANDI Were you expecting this gentleman at the gate to be the one who would be keeping the keys for the safe? MR MAHLAKAONE With my information he's the person who got everything while he is on duty in the charge office whatsoever. ADV SANDI Where did you get that information? MR MAHLAKAONE It is from my sources because I was engaged really in the war of brains where I have to infiltrate to each and every corner, that was my task so in order to do the right thing at the right place I have to get proper information. ADV SANDI Your reconnaissance, how did you go about conducting this reconnaissance? Did you personally go to the police station to inspect what the situation was there? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes, I did go personally because people in the area they know me as a journalist probably. Actually they know me as a journalist, that is why I managed to go in because I did have all the relevant documents. ADV SANDI Were you in fact a journalist? MR MAHLAKAONE I was not, it was my cover story. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Chair. ADV SIBANYONI Mr Mahlakaone, you said you reported to the late Comrade Chris Hani. Was he in the country or did you leave the country first before you gave the reports? MR MAHLAKAONE No, I was in the country. ADV SIBANYONI In Johannesburg? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes. ADV SIBANYONI Then again, this operation, the attack on the police station, it was an initiative of your own unit or was it an order from the above structures? MR MAHLAKAONE It was an order plus my initiatives. ADV SIBANYONI Can you explain that? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes, because one, the police station at Ntwengeni was not part of the mission that was stipulated but due to the fact that there was - Ntwengeni ended up being part of the place that is implicated to what we are looking for. That is why I decided to go to it because while I was looking for a - there was a member who was a member of the askaris and he defected from the ANC. They were using the place as part of the place where they put their weapons. So in order to get them right I decided that the weapons must be taken away from that police station. ADV SIBANYONI Otherwise the main aim of establishing units in the Eastern Transvaal, what was then the Eastern Transvaal, what was the purpose? MR MAHLAKAONE The purpose was that I have to establish units so that if - because the area of Eastern Transvaal itself was the most problematic area because it's on the front line, so that we have to gear up ourselves, units must be always ready if there's any problem in the region. ADV SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Koopedi, any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Just one area, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Okay, go ahead? MR KOOPEDI When you went to this police station, where did you get off the car? I mean did you get off the car at the gate or at some place? MR MAHLAKAONE Okay, when we - I get off the car not on the gate because the police station was on the outskirts of that place of Ntwengeni so at the back opposite us just a main road. So I get off at the main road, I directed the other members to go straight to the gate because I give them orders, I showed them on the sketch where I have to park the vehicle. MR KOOPEDI And where were they to park the vehicle? MR MAHLAKAONE They were supposed to park the vehicle in front of the gate so that when we managed to take the weapons it must be easier for us to put them in the vehicle and we go away. MR KOOPEDI And after getting off the vehicle, did you say you jumped a fence into the police station? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes. MR KOOPEDI Now when Solly or one of your guys went inside and allegedly asked for water, were you anywhere near them? MR MAHLAKAONE I was not near them, I was at the back of the building, at the back side of the building because I was moving along the wall. MR KOOPEDI And that is why you would not know whether or not they asked for water and why you won't know why he wasn't held up at that stage? MR MAHLAKAONE Yes. MR KOOPEDI No further questions, thanks Chairperson. MR MAHLAKAONE Thank you Mr Koopedi. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Mahlakaone. WITNESS EXCUSED MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, we have no further evidence to tender and that's the case for the application, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Ms Mtanga, any evidence? MS MTANGA No evidence, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Koopedi, have you got submissions on the merits of the application? MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT A very brief submission, Chairperson. Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, it's my submission that the applicant before you has complied with the requirements of the Act in his request for a grant of amnesty. It's my submission that this applicant has fully disclosed all the relevant facts in this matter. It is also my submission that this applicant has not benefited anything personally out of having taken part in this attack. I also submit that the attack on the police station be it for disarming or robbing the firearms at the police station or even killing or shooting at police was or should be seen as a politically motivated action in that the police were at that stage perceived and seen to be part of the apartheid machinery. And finally, I wish to submit and perhaps refer the Honourable Committee to page 16 of the bundle of documents. This is an affidavit by one of the victims who has not come and where he states that he in fact used his firearm, his work firearm to shoot and perhaps this is said in response the two other gentlemen who says they did not have firearms and did not shoot. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Mtanga, any submissions? MS MTANGA Chairperson, I have no submissions but I have been asked by the Mbata family. Mr Alfred Mbata is the family of Mr Mbata. I also have Mrs Mbata, the mother and the wife of Mr Mbata. The family's position is that they are not opposing but they would like the Commission to compensate them in some way. Mr Alfred Mbata indicated that when the applicant intended to destroy the system, he did not only destroy the system, it destroyed his family because as a family they depended on Mr Mbata, he was their breadwinner, he supported them. Without him they've really struggled and Mr Mbata left a son who is now 18 years old. The mother is not working and they're using their pensions to support this child. That is all Chairperson. ADV SANDI So that is, as I understand it, that is basically a request to declare those people you've mentioned, victims in terms of the Act? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson. ADV SANDI We'll have to get full names and details for R and R purposes? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson, I do have the names. May I place them on record? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MTANGA The father is Alfred Mbata. The mother Themba Koiye Mbata. The deceased's wife is Witness Tolagelis Tolye, she's unemployed. And the son, that is the son of the deceased is Obias Menze ...(indistinct) Mbata, who is 18 years old and is doing Standard 10. And the two policemen, it's Mr Simon Peter Maonye and the second policeman is Medius Malope. That is all Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Koopedi, your client is not in custody, is he? MR KOOPEDI No Chairperson, he is not in custody and in fact since he paid bail in 1991 he was never called to court or anything. He is not in custody he is employed with the South African National Defence Force, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So there's no pending, immediately pending court proceeding? MR KOOPEDI To his knowledge there isn't, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Thank you. Yes? ADV SIBANYONI According to the document he is not certain whether he eventually got indemnity? MR KOOPEDI That is so. According to my instructions is that he in fact applied for indemnity at that time when he went out while he was at Zambia, he was never told anything. He came back, he was arrested, nothing came forth on the indemnity so he's not sure whether he did get it or not or whether the fact that no prosecution ensued comes from the fact whether he got amnesty. He doesn't know. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, thank you Mr Koopedi. That concludes the formal part of the proceedings. The panel will consider the application, the evidence and other material that has been placed before us and we will present a decision on the application as soon as the circumstances permit. We have noted the facts which Ms Mtanga has placed on record in regard to the next-of-kin of the late Mr Mbata and appropriate steps would be taken in that regard. So under the circumstances the judgement would be reserved in the matter. Mr Koopedi, we thank you for your assistance and Ms Mtanga. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We will excuse you if you don't any further business here? MR KOOPEDI No, I do not. CHAIRPERSON Yes, then we will excuse you and we also thank the other interested parties for having attended and for having participated in the proceedings. Ms Mtanga, what is the position with the next case? MS MTANGA Chairperson, for the next matter we have three applicants, the Phashas. They're all in custody at Barberton. They were notified. We are experiencing some difficulties because we don't know what's going on. I asked the office to try and phone the prison and find out what is going on because they have not yet arrived. CHAIRPERSON They haven't arrived yet? MS MTANGA And also, the families, the Phasha family did received notices, I've got acknowledgement of receipt of our notice but they also have not attended. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MTANGA So if the Committee can adjourn and then I'll make a follow up to my - I'll telephone. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we'll adjourn and then you will inform us what the position is with that application? MS MTANGA Yes I will, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Very well. We then adjourn. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Mtanga the Phasha matter is formally still on the role. What is the position in regard to that? MS MTANGA Chairperson, in the Phasha matter we've discovered that the three notices that were supposed to be sent to the prison authorities are for the applicants to be brought to the hearing, we actually sent to the lawyer, Mr Tony Richard. Having received these notices, Mr Richard wrote a letter to Cape Town asking what must we do with them but that was never responded to and apparently they didn't discover this mistake. So what we've done now, in actual fact the prisoners have not been notified so the applicants could not attend. We've been advised that one applicant is at Witbank, the second one is at Baviaansport in Pretoria and the third one is at Barberton. The two, that is Pretoria and Barberton will take very long for them to come here so it will be impossible for us to hear them today, all three applicants. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes, well we're not sitting tomorrow? is that correct? MS MTANGA No we're not. CHAIRPERSON So under those circumstances we will have to deal with those applications on Wednesday. MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I assume that the applicants will be present by then? MS MTANGA Yes, we'll try and have them brought to Witbank to join the third person who is here in Witbank, that is the one applicant who is in Pretoria and the other one is in Barberton, they'll be brought to Witbank, all of them. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Mr Richard, yes, we must apologise for the mix up with the arrangements for the applicants. So we trust that it would be possible to get that together for Wednesday and then we can hopefully dispose of the matter then. MR RICHARD ...(inaudible) for the 8th until the 11th for the hearing and if need be, I can continue onto Friday. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR RICHARD My only request is that on Wednesday the prisoners be brought here at 8 o'clock so I'll have a brief moment to talk further with them. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RICHARD And I believe my learned colleague has a similar request regarding the victims. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Yes, we have noted that through Mr Richard, for you as well. So Ms Mtanga will you please attend to that? We would also like at least to start the proceedings at a decent time on Wednesday. MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson, I can attend to the request for the prisoners to be here but it's going be impossible for us to arrange for the victims because most of them are in rural areas and they don't have telephone numbers so it's impossible for us to supervise their movements. We won't know exactly what time they'll be here if they are coming at all. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes very well, we will see how the matter develops. But in any event, at this stage then we will adjourn the Phasha applications until Wednesday morning when we will reconvene at 9 o'clock in this venue. CHAIRPERSON We're adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS