amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 2000-05-08 ETC CONFERENCE CENTRE, 1 NXHOLISEKO MBANGI, PORT ELIZABETH AM0424/96 DEATH OF MR BARNARD REFUSED https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54156&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200508pe.htm CHAIRPERSON This is a commencement of a further hearing of the Amnesty Committee, being held at the ETC Conference Centre in Port Elizabeth. As requested, we will place ourselves on our record for the benefit of those who have to prepare a typed copy. The Committee consists of myself, Judge Wilson, Judge Miller and Judge Motata. Would the rest of you please put yourselves on record. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo, I'm representing the applicant in this matter. Thank you. MR FROST May it please this Honourable Committee, Mr Chairman. I, Allan Frost, appear for the victim in this matter, Mr Petrus Barnard. MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Thabile Thabethe, I'm the Evidence Leader for the TRC. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Right, what are we commencing with? MS THABETHE Mr Chair, we are commencing with the application of Mr Nxholiseko Mbangi. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson. I was just in the meantime trying to get the frequencies for the languages. CHAIRPERSON Are your problems sorted out? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson. Chairperson, we are ready. Can Mr Mbangi be sworn in, Chairperson? NXHOLISEKO MBANGI (sworn states) JUDGE MOTATA Duly sworn in, Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, I will start and lead the applicant from page 4 of his statement which is in the bundle. Mr Mbangi, is it correct that you are 27 years of age? MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Is it correct that you joined the PAC in 1985, in Uitenhage? MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Under the Chairperson of Mr Jantjies. MR MBANGI Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO Is it correct that in 1992 you became involved in this incident because you wanted to assist the organisation in preparation for the first elections? MR MBANGI That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Is it also correct that you were also an APLA cadre? MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee when you joined APLA? MR MBANGI I joined APLA in 1985. MR MBANDAZAYO Where did you join APLA in 1985? MR MBANGI In Uitenhage. MR MBANDAZAYO Is it correct that in 1985, APLA was a banned organisation and its mother body the PAC? MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Then can you tell the Committee how did you join the banned organisation? INTERPRETER I'm still waiting on the applicant. JUDGE MILLER I think if you could just repeat your question, Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO I'll do that, Honourable Member. Mr Mbangi, can you tell the Committee how did you join a banned organisation in 1985? That is APLA. MR MBANGI I joined although it was banned, but I became a member of the APLA. MR MBANDAZAYO Were there any members of APLA in 1985, in Uitenhage? MR MBANGI The organisation was banned. Though people were members, but the organisation itself was banned. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. Can you tell the Committee about Mzawuabanthu Stokwe. Who was Mzawuabanthu Stokwe? MR MBANGI Mzawuabanthu Stokwe was the Commander, but he was coming from the exile after being trained and then I met with him. He is the one who initiated the mission. I used to receive orders from him. I would take orders from him. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee about Mxdisi Mbotjwa. MR MBANGI Mxdisi Mbotjwa knew nothing about the organisation. They were recruited by myself, but I never involved them in this mission. I did not tell them anything about the mission. MR MBANDAZAYO Is it also the case with Luyanda Mdamu? MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Now how did you manage to involve people who did not know about a mission, in a mission? MR MBANGI It was very difficult for me to tell them because they would change their minds later and they would be used by the white people. MR MBANDAZAYO Did your Commander know about this, that these people were not members of APLA, nor members of a task force? MR MBANGI Yes, he was fully aware, because I recruited them together with my Commander, and my Commander knew about me, but he knew nothing about them. MR MBANDAZAYO Now your Commander was Mzawuabanthu, is it correct according to you? MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Now if your Commander was Mzawuabanthu Stokwe, who was Mandu Befile? MR MBANGI He was his High Commander. MR MBANDAZAYO Now can you tell the Committee what happened on your arrival at Mr Barnard's farm. MR MBANGI "When we got there we were on our mission to help the organisation financially. When we got to Mr Barnard's house, he refused to surrender and we pointed a firearm at him and we shot him." JUDGE MILLER Sorry, are you saying all three of you shot him? You say "we" pointed a firearm and "we" shot him. What was the position? MR MBANGI He drew his firearm while he was already pointed with a firearm by the deceased, therefore the deceased shot him, because he had his firearm out also. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. How were yourselves armed? MR MBANGI Pistol and a parabellum. MR MBANDAZAYO How many firearms did you have on the day in question? JUDGE MILLER Sorry, are you talking about him singular, Mr Mbandazayo, or between the three of them? I think if you can just deal with them individually. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson. As the Chairperson indicated, Mzawuabanthu, how was Mzawuabanthu armed? MR MBANGI Mzawuabanthu had a firearm and the others had knives. I also had a knife. Befile had a firearm also. MR MBANDAZAYO Also Befile was present there? The High Commander you are talking about. MR MBANGI There are two Befiles, except for the High Commander, Dadasi, the one who was shot, my Commander, his name is also Befile. MR MBANDAZAYO So only one person was armed with a firearm. MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Now am I correct that when you went there to pull off this mission at Mr Barnard's farm, you were aware of the situation in the farm? MR MBANGI Yes, because we've been there before to surveil the place. MR MBANDAZAYO And you knew that there's a possibility that he was also armed. MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO And despite that, knowing that he's well armed, in any event you decided that only one person should be armed amongst you, with a pistol. MR MBANGI Yes, it was right, we thought that he was going to surrender when we arrived there. MR MBANDAZAYO Now you have already indicated that Mr Barnard was shot by your Commander, how was your Commander shot? Who shot him? MR MBANGI Mr Barnard was driving in a lorry. We were coming on foot next to the kombi. He shot him as he was in the lorry, and he fell and then he died. MR MBANDAZAYO Now you have already indicated that only one person was armed, was it only firearm which you used or? MR MBANGI Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO You were only carrying one firearm. MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO In your statement you indicated that Mandu Befile gave you two firearms, 9mm pistols. MR MBANGI We did not take the other pistol with, we only took one. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Mbangi, some of your colleagues who went to the farm together with yourself, made statements in which they deny that what you went there to do had anything to do with politics, what do you say to that? MR MBANGI That is not coming as a surprise to me, because they were used, co-opted by the boers, so that is not a surprise to me. MR MBANDAZAYO Are you saying that they made up the fact that they went there to buy a goat? The only thing they know is that your reason for going to Mr Barnard's farm was to buy a goat. MR MBANGI I dispute that, we did not go there to buy a goat. MR MBANDAZAYO Is it not correct what they are saying, because you have already told the Committee that you never told them what was the reason for them going there. MR MBANGI What we went there to do was to get weapons and money. We did not go there to buy a goat, we did not have money to buy a goat or sheep. MR MBANDAZAYO Now after the mission who did you report to? MR MBANGI It became extremely difficult because my Commander had died, but the first person was his High Commander, my Commander's High Commander, Mr Mandu. That's the first person that was visited. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I'm a little confused, can I clear up something? Maybe I didn't hear it when my microphone wasn't working. Did you have a weapon at any stage? MR MBANGI There was only one weapon, the one that was with Dadasi, the deceased. CHAIRPERSON And did you have it at any stage? MR MBANGI No. CHAIRPERSON So you did not have a weapon at any stage on that day? MR MBANGI No, I never had a weapon. JUDGE MILLER Sorry, Judge Wilson. Didn't you say you had a knife? MR MBANGI To me a weapon is something else. The firearm was with the deceased. The only weapon that I had was a knife, not a firearm. CHAIRPERSON You see in the statement that you have put up you said "Whilst we were leaving the farm, the son of the late Barnard fired some shots at us, fatally injuring Mzawuabanthu Stokwe." Is that correct? MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you then say "I retaliated, shot and injured his son." MR MBANGI Yes, I can hear that. CHAIRPERSON Did you? MR MBANGI No, Sir. I was sentenced in 1993 and I'm still in jail even now. It's impossible for me to remember exactly what happened in 1993. CHAIRPERSON Come, come, if you had shot somebody you would have remember it, and that is what you say you did. And you said this in March of this year. MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Can you explain how you came to say it? MR MBANGI As we were leaving the farm after the mission, Barnard's son shot my Commander, I also shot him back. He was in the veranda. CHAIRPERSON But a few minutes ago you told me you did not have a weapon, a firearm, now you say you did have one and you shot him back. Do you remember that you took an oath to tell the truth? MR MBANGI I only got hold of the firearm from Mr Barnard. After he was shot by Mzawuabanthu, I took his weapon. That doesn't mean that I went there with a weapon, I only went there with a knife and after Barnard was shot by my Commander, I took his firearm. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps your counsel will let you explain further if he feels he can. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mbangi, I asked you - before the Chairperson asked you the question, I asked you to tell the Committee what actually took place in Mr Barnard's farm. And as correctly said by the Chairperson, you did not mention that after you shot Mr Barnard, you took his firearm. Can you then tell the Committee exactly everything that happened on the day in question, from your arrival at the scene, at Mr Barnard's farm. MR MBANGI: I can. "We arrived there, the five of us. The three went to the kraal, the two of us, myself and the deceased we went to Mr Barnard. The three went to the kraal. When we reached Mr Barnard, my Commander pointed a firearm at him and I was there next to him, but Mr Barnard didn't want to surrender, instead he drew his own firearm as he was on the lorry. After he was shot down I took his firearm, Mr Barnard's firearm. As we left the premises his son shot from our back. We did not realise that he was there in the premises, because he was repairing the motorbikes in the garage. And then he shot Mzawuabanthu from the back. That is Mr Barnard's son. I got a shock and I shot back and I ran away eventually." JUDGE MILLER But if that is so, Mr Mbangi, then in your statement, the very last sentence on page 4, you say "We could not get away with the weapons, as they were in the possession of Stokwe." Now you said you had Mr Barnard's weapon, why then did you say you couldn't get away the weapons? MR MBANGI What do you mean when you say that we didn't manage to ...(intervention) JUDGE MILLER If you take a look at your statement, page 4 of the bundle, the very last sentence, and I'll read it "We could not go away with the weapons, as they were in possession of late Mzawuabanthu Stokwe, who was shot dead." Now you on what you've just told us now, you say you picked up Mr Barnard's weapon and you shot at Mr Barnard's son. Now what did you do with Mr Barnard's weapon then when you'd finished shooting and you'd left the farm? MR MBANGI My Commander was shot and I was chased by the police on that veld and I couldn't get to the township with this firearm. I had to abandon this firearm because two police vans were after me. That's how I lost Mr Barnard's firearm. JUDGE MOTATA Did you have the firearm when Mr Barnard's son started shooting at you, when you did not see him, whilst repairing a vehicle or a motorbike? MR MBANGI Yes, the firearm was with me at the time. JUDGE MOTATA You had already taken Mr Barnard senior's firearm by then. MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. JUDGE MOTATA You may proceed, Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson. Now Mr Mbangi, can you clarify this point for me. After you shot Mr Barnard, is it correct that you retreated, you went away? MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct, we left the place. MR MBANDAZAYO Your Commander was shot whilst you were leaving the place, is that correct? MR MBANGI Yes, after turning our backs on the farm, that's when he was shot at. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee - you have already told the Committee that your mission was to repossess firearms and money and kill Mr Barnard, but at that time you had not yet got the firearms and money, why did you go away without accomplishing your mission? MR MBANGI Because of the time constraint and things didn't go according to plan, because on your minds we thought that this was going to be a very disciplined operation, the white man was going to surrender as expected, but the white man refused to surrender and we had to run away without accomplishing the mission. CHAIRPERSON But the mission was to kill the farmer. MR MBANGI No, we didn't go there to kill the farmer. CHAIRPERSON Well let me read from your statement again "Mr Mandu Befile, our Commander, ordered us to go and rob Barnard's farm and kill him." MR MBANGI The intention was not to kill, we only went there to get money and weapons. We didn't go there to kill Mr Barnard. CHAIRPERSON "We were to take money and weapons. We did as he had ordered us, we attacked Mr Barnard's farm, robbed him and killed him." It makes it clear there that your intention and instructions were, to go there to kill him and to rob him of weapons and money. You say so. MR MBANGI We didn't go there to kill, we only went there to get the weapons and the money, that is all. It happened as an accident. CHAIRPERSON Why did you say in your statement that you prepared, that you were instructed to go to his farm and kill him? MR MBANGI We were not instructed to kill. Even my Commander didn't mention anything about the killing, but it just happened as an accident. CHAIRPERSON So your statement is false. MR MBANGI This part of the killing I don't have any knowledge suggesting that we went there to kill. JUDGE MOTATA But if you have regard to the actual application you made, that is page 2, would be 10(b) "u Motivering waarom u so danige dade versuim of misdryf/misdrywe, wat met 'n politieke oogmerk in verband staan beskou." then you say: "Skiet eienaar omdat hy blank is. Gehoorsaam slagspreuk van "Kill the farmers". MR MBANGI I do not understand you, Sir. JUDGE MOTATA Loosely translated it is that you said he was white and there was an adage, probably, loosely from the PAC, that "Kill the farmers", and you were obeying that instruction from the PAC. JUDGE MILLER And that statement is contained in the application form which you filled in when you made application. It appears on page 2 of the bundle of documents. MR MBANGI At the time the land was in the hands of the whites and we were fighting against the whites, any white person at the time, because they were also the instruments of the apartheid. JUDGE MILLER But you see, this is the whole point we're trying to get at, Mr Mbangi, you've said now that it was not your intention to kill Mr Barnard when you went to the farm, your only intention was to obtain money and firearms, whereas in your application form you say the prime intention - if one takes it as a whole, was to kill Mr Barnard, in accordance with the slogan "Kill the farmer, kill the Boer", and in your statement which you made later, the one that appears on page 4, again you specifically say "Our intention was to go there and kill Mr Barnard." now you say at this hearing, that it wasn't your intention. What we're trying to find out from you is, first of all, what was your intention, was your intention when you went there, to kill the farmer? If it wasn't, why did you say so in your application form and in your statement? That's all we're trying to get at. We're trying to resolve this confusion which you yourself have created. MR MBANGI This is the police statement, the Investigator in this case, isn't that? Isn't this a police statement, Sir? JUDGE MILLER I don't know, it's ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, you've been read now from your application for amnesty, dated the 3rd of May 1996. JUDGE MILLER And then the other statement that is referred to, is a statement that was made by yourself on the 2nd of March of this year, 2000, at the St Albans Maximum Prison. MR MBANGI What I'm saying, Sir, is that we didn't, or I didn't go there to kill Mr Barnard, please don't make me say it. I didn't go there to kill, I was just obeying the orders from my Commander, only to get weapons and the money. I was never given an order to kill, but it happened as an accident as it happened. JUDGE MILLER Yes, Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, that's the evidence of the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FROST Sir, you still haven't answered the question as to how you were recruited as a member of the PAC, will you please answer that question. MR MBANGI Please repeat your question, Sir. MR FROST Sir, you still haven't answered the question as to how you were recruited as a member of your political party. Will you please answer that question. MR MBANGI I joined APLA in 1985, I was recruited by Dadasi, my Commander. MR FROST How were you recruited, Sir? MR MBANGI He told me, he explained to me about this organisation, about the rights of the organisation. MR FROST Well can you explain to us what you were fighting for. MR MBANGI The battle was aimed at the whites, we were fighting for the land. MR FROST Sorry, to kill the whites? MR MBANGI Yes, because those were the people who were oppressing us. MR FROST Can you explain the structure of your political party? MR MBANGI Sir, I want to tell you this, I was just taking orders from my Commander. I was just fighting here inside and I was never trained in the exile. My Commander was giving orders and he also had his High Commander, but our battle was towards the whites, we were fighting with the whites. Everyone was aware of that. JUDGE MILLER Sorry, Mr Frost, if I may just intervene briefly. Mr Mbangi, was there a separate recruitment in APLA, or was your recruitment into PAC and APLA one transaction, or did you first become a member of the PAC and then later became a member of the armed wing, APLA? MR MBANGI Please explain. It's one organisation as far as I know. JUDGE MOTATA No, my colleague is asking you a simple question, that there is the political organisation which is Pan Africanist Congress and there's the armed wing, Azanian People's Liberation Army, which process took place, were you firstly recruited into the political wing and thereafter into the armed wing of that political organisation? It's a simple question. And they are different. MR MBANGI I first became the PAC member. JUDGE MILLER Mr Frost. MR FROST Sir, were you addressed by anyone other than the deceased, Stokwe, as your Commander? MR MBANGI It's only my Commander who gave me the briefing. MR FROST And other than him giving you a briefing, you actually have no idea how the PAC or APLA was structured, is that correct? MR MBANGI No-one told me anything about that. MR FROST How did you come to meet Stokwe, as a friend? MR MBANGI Yes, he came as a friend. MR FROST Now your High Commander that you referred to Defile, what are his full names? MR MBANGI We used to call him Mandu. JUDGE MILLER Do you know what his full names are, besides Mandu? MR MBANGI No, he was just a High Commander to my Commander, not my Commander. He was not my Commander, but he was just a High Commander to my Commander. MR FROST And how were you aware of this? MR MBANGI My Commander told me because he was also taking orders from his High Commander, and then he would later bring down the instructions to us. MR FROST Now you were also known as Lonki, is that right? MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. MR FROST Now I've been favoured just now with a statement from Mandu, and I want to read one of the paragraphs of that statement. Mr Chairman, it's not an exhibit at this stage, may I hand it in as an exhibit? Unfortunately I don't have copies, I don't know if - may I hand it in as an exhibit at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. MR FROST It's a statement by Sydney Kwaziso Mandu Nonje Befile. CHAIRPERSON Is it headed: "Mbangi's Application" The first page on the top right. MR FROST Yes, that is so, Mr Chairman. That is the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Exhibit A. MR FROST As the Panel pleases. Now Sir, I'm referring to the typed statement, page 1 thereof, it's unfortunately not numbered, but three paragraphs from the bottom it states: "Tatse Stokwe, their Commander with whom they went to Barnard's farm, was shot dead at the scene. Lonki is my brother, who was with the deceased." Can you comment on this? MR MBANGI It's a surprise to me that I am a brother to him, I know nothing about that. MR FROST Can you think of any reason why he would refer to you as being his brother? MR MBANGI He's a friend, but he was actually older than me and he was just a friend. Maybe that's what he meant. MR FROST So he was also a friend of yours together with Stokwe. MR MBANGI Yes. JUDGE MILLER Sorry, just while you're there, Mr Frost. In the same statement, and I just read, this is a statement made by Mandu, whose name is actually Sydney Xabiso Nonoi. He says "I was not a Commander of the APLA cadres, as has been stated by the applicant." Do you have any comment on that? MR MBANGI There is nothing to comment about. JUDGE MILLER Mr Frost. MR FROST Now Sir, the persons that went with you, with yourself and Stokwe, you recruited them you said. I refer to Mzawuabanthu Stokwe and Mbotjwa. MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. JUDGE MILLER That's the persons you're referring to, isn't it Mxdisi Mbotjwa and Ntamo, not Stokwe. MR MBANGI I recruited Mxdisi Mbotjwa and Luyanda Mdamu. JUDGE MILLER Page 4, in the middle. MR FROST Yes, thank you. Now how did you recruit them, Sir? MR MBANGI I involved them in this mission. MR FROST Was this their first recruitment? Let me rephrase that, sorry. Is this the first time ...(intervention) MR MBANGI Yes, it was the first time for me to recruit them. MR FROST So did you inform them for what purpose they were being recruited? MR MBANGI Yes, I told them about the job, the mission. MR FROST Now what did you tell them about the mission? MR MBANGI I told them that we were going to the farm, to Mr Barnard's farm and we were going there to get the weapons and the money, but killing would come by accident, and they were willing to take the job. That's how I recruited them. MR FROST You see, Sir, I understood your evidence earlier, to be that they were unaware of the fact that they were going to rob, because if they knew that they might change their minds and then they might end up co-operating with the police. That was the effect of your evidence. MR MBANGI We didn't tell them that we're doing it for the organisation. They had no knowledge about the organisation, they only knew that we're just a group of people going there to rob weapons and the money, but they didn't know that we were doing it for the benefit of our organisation. MR FROST Now can you explain to us why, after you recruited them, you did not tell them that it was for the benefit of the organisation? MR MBANGI It would be difficult for them because if -they wouldn't be willing to do it if they were not doing it for their personal benefit but for the organisation. They wouldn't do it. JUDGE MILLER Sorry, Mr Frost. What was the arrangement with them, what sort of cut would they get of the proceeds from the robbery? Would they get an equal share, would you all divide it up equally? What was the agreement? MR MBANGI They were going to get money, but they were not going to get weapons, weapons were going to be given to the organisation. JUDGE MILLER So if you got money from the robbery, would they - you say there were five of you, is that right? MR MBANGI Yes. JUDGE MILLER Would they have got one-fifth share each? If you got R1 000, would each of them have got R200? MR MBANGI We were going to give the three of them money and we'd take the remainder to the organisation. JUDGE MILLER Sorry, Mr Frost. Now there was yourself, there was Stokwe, there was Mbotjwa and there was Mdamu, who was the fifth person? MR MBANGI Dadasi. JUDGE MILLER Dadasi. What are his names? MR MBANGI Dadasi Befile Stokwe. JUDGE MILLER So was he the brother of Mzawuabanthu Stokwe? MR MBANGI Yes, they were brothers. JUDGE MILLER Yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON He was the brother of Stokwe, your leader? MR MBANGI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is he also known as Mzawuabanthu Briza Stokwe? MR MBANGI No, Dadasi Stokwe and Mzawuabanthu Briza Stokwe are two different people. MR FROST Now Briza Stokwe, who is he? MR MBANGI Briza Stokwe, that is ... MR FROST Sorry, who is Briza Stokwe? I didn't hear an answer. Mzawuabanthu Briza Stokwe. MR MBANGI That is him, that is Briza Stokwe. JUDGE MILLER Sorry, I'm a little bit confused here, because if one takes a look at page 8, there we have a person reflected as an accused person in a trial, in the indictment, is Mzawuabanthu Stokwe. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, I think the difference lies at the spelling. The other one is M-z-w-a, the other one is M-z-i-w-a. JUDGE MILLER The names are extremely close, it's just that "i". That clears the confusion, thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Frost. MR FROST Thank you. Sir, when you went to rob Mr Barnard, what was the plan? MR MBANGI We first discussed this, after that we left for Mr Barnard's farm to do the job. MR FROST Why did you choose Mr Barnard? MR MBANGI The target was suggested by my Commander, and I cannot say why did he choose Mr Barnard, but I just took the order from him. MR FROST Is it not so that what you robbed was a - or the place you robbed was an empty piece of ground with a kraal with goats and a truck standing on it? MR MBANGI What do you mean when you say it was just a piece of ground with nothing important? Please explain that. MR FROST That this wasn't a piece of ground with a farmhouse on, where the farmer, Mr Barnard, lived, it was just a place from which he sold goats. MR MBANGI There was a farmhouse next to Mr Barnard's premises. He was not in the house, he was in the kraal. There was a big yard there and there was a house next to Mr Barnard's premises and he was in the kraal, not in the house. MR FROST You see, Sir, I want to put it to you that the place you robbed wasn't a farm, it was a place constituting a piece of ground on which there was a kraal and on which Mr Barnard's truck was parked, from where he was selling goats. MR MBANGI I am not going to argue with you about that because I'm telling you that there was a farmhouse there. Mr Barnard's son came from that house. MR FROST I also put it to you, Sir, that Mr Barnard's son who is sitting next to me, will testify at this hearing that his father's farm, Mr Barnard, was some kilometres away from where he was shot and killed and that he, Mr Barnard's son was nowhere near on the day in question. MR MBANGI ...(no English interpretation) MR FROST He does have two sons. JUDGE MILLER Maybe if you can just clear it before you put that, where was the other son? MR FROST He was in Krugersdorp at the time. JUDGE MILLER Perhaps if you could just repeat what you had put, for comment by the applicant. MR FROST I want to put it to you Sir, that Mr Barnard's farm, the man that was shot and killed, was some kilometres away from where he was killed. Let me put that to you first of all. MR MBANGI I am not going to dispute that, but I'm telling you that there was a house next to Mr Barnard's lorry. JUDGE MILLER Yes, but didn't you say that you shot at Mr Barnard's son after you picked up the father's gun? MR MBANGI Yes, I said so, because he was coming out of that house. I cannot say whether it was Mr Barnard's son or not, I didn't have time to check that, but he came out of the house trying to protect Mr Barnard, and he was also a white man. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, are you now saying you cannot say if it was Mr Barnard's son or not, but up to now you have testified again and again that it was his son that you shot. Do you now say you don't know? MR MBANGI I am taking him as Mr Barnard's son who was trying to protect the father. I don't know whether he was a father or not, but I regard him as Barnard's son. MR FROST Sir, I want to put it to you that the deceased, Mr Barnard, the firearm that he had on him that day was never taken away from him, that it was recovered there from him at the scene. MR MBANGI I took Mr Barnard's firearm and I abandoned it a distance from the scene. MR FROST Sir, where were you going to get the weapons from that you went to rob? MR MBANGI We were expecting him to take us inside the farmhouse, the house that I'm referring to. JUDGE MILLER Mr Mbangi, was the first time you had been to that place? MR MBANGI It was for the second time because I had been there before and it was for the second time during this mission. JUDGE MILLER So you're saying you went there for the first time just to do some surveillance, and then you went back for the mission? MR MBANGI Yes. JUDGE MILLER Mr Frost. MR FROST Now why is it that two of your accomplices or persons that went with you - I'll refer to the statements, pages 39, 40, 41, 42, the statement of Mbotjwa and Stokwe, why would they say they went there to buy a goat? MR MBANGI That's what they said in court, because they turned against me, they became State witnesses and I was the only person who was sentenced out of five of us. That is not surprise to me when they changed the story and said that they went there to buy goats. And the three of them are not in jail, I'm the only one who is in prison, whereas the five of us were there on that mission. MR FROST So is it not so that you also denied any participation in this crime, in your trial in the High Court? MR MBANGI Yes, I suppose to deny that because that was in court and I knew that I was going to be sentenced. I had to protect myself, I couldn't say yes, I killed a white man during the days of oppression. MR FROST And after you were convicted and found guilty by the court, when you were asked with regards to the mitigation of sentence, did you not tell the court that you did this in compliance with your political organisation's orders? MR MBANGI During those days I couldn't mention such things because we were under the apartheid regime. JUDGE MOTATA But Mr Mbangi - if I may come in Mr Frost, this sentence was heard, if I'm not mistaken, if I'm looking at the record, page 33, on the 10th September 1993, and the organisations, the banned organisations were unbanned in 1990, and there was already talk about a new dispensation? Wouldn't I be right? MR MBANGI Yes, that is true, Sir, the organisations were unbanned, but we were still oppressed, we were still under this apartheid regime. JUDGE MOTATA What I'm saying is that there was talk that let's get a better South African, in other words, amongst the parties. That's what I'm saying, because if you look at it, immediately the following year there were elections, hardly a year thereafter when you were sentenced. MR MBANGI That is true. Yes, we were on our way to the elections before that, but we were still oppressed, but we were still preparing ourselves to get into the apartheid regime. JUDGE MOTATA You felt even on the 10th of September 1993, if you had said "I did what I did to obtain money to further the aims of the Pan Africanist Congress", the then regime would have come down hard on you. MR MBANGI I was afraid to mention that because the government of the day was a very bad one. I didn't want to victimise myself. JUDGE MOTATA Thank you, you may continue, Mr Frost. MR FROST Sir, on page 3 of your application, paragraph 11(a), you were asked, translated, whether the crimes that you committed that you're applying for amnesty, basically whether they were - whether someone had told you to commit those crimes. MR MBANGI No-one told me to do those things. JUDGE MOTATA Which things? MR MBANGI These that I'm talking about. JUDGE MOTATA The evidence that is before us, nobody told you to say that, or which things are you referring to? I just want some clarity, I'm now confused, totally confused. I don't know about my colleagues now. Could you explain yourself, what things are you referring to now? MR MBANGI The mission, I was involved in the mission for the benefit of the organisation. After I was sentenced, the government of the - during the government of democracy I decided to apply through the TRC for amnesty, to talk about this incident. I was not doing this for a personal gain, but I was doing it for my organisation. JUDGE MILLER But I think what the point here is, Mr Mbangi, if you take a look at question 11(a), as it appears on page 3 of the papers, it's a portion of the application form that you signed when you made application for amnesty, and question 11(a) says, or is to the effect: "Did you act on the instruction or order of any person?" Right? Your answer is "Nobody specific gave any order, I did it for the benefit of the organisation." now today when you gave evidence you said the only reason you went to the Barnard's, to Mr Barnard there, was because you received an order from your Commander, Stokwe. That is what Mr Frost is asking you. Why did you say you didn't receive any order from any specific person in your application form, but here you say that you acted under orders from your Commander. That is what he's trying to find out from you. It's not a trick question or anything, it's just two contradictory statements. We want to know what is your stand now. MR MBANGI I am saying, my Commander would identify the targets and I would obey orders from him and I would do as told. JUDGE MOTATA Do you follow the question, Mr Mbangi? Do you follow the question? You are referred to page 3, look at page 3, and what you are saying there - the question is "Did you receive any orders to commit the offence?" and you say: "No, I was only following the slogan and nobody gave me specific instructions." That's what you said on the form you signed on the 3rd of May 1996. That's the question. What did you mean by that, that you were not given orders? MR MBANGI I do not understand what is here, because I was given orders for everything that I did. I wouldn't take initiative and do anything without instructions. JUDGE MOTATA Mr Frost. MR FROST Now you've told us that the deceased was your Commander and he was the one that gave you the orders, this is what you've told us today, remember? MR MBANGI Yes. MR FROST Now if I can refer you to page 6 of the second statement you appear to have made, on the 23rd of March 2000, about the fifth paragraph from the bottom you say "We did that operation as APLA members under the orders of Mandu Befile." MR MBANGI Mandu Befile was a High Commander to my Commander and my Commander would get instructions from him and then he would further command me. I knew nothing about the High Commander, I only knew about my Commander, who would give me instructions, my immediate Commander. MR FROST The High Commander being your friend, who in his statement denies being a Commander. MR MBANGI My Commander was my friend, the deceased Mr Stokwe. MR FROST I'm talking about your High Commander, Mandu Befile, your friend. MR MBANGI Mandu was the High Commander of the deceased. MR FROST But he was your friend and your High Commander. MR MBANGI My Commander was the one who was also my friend. MR FROST Sir, just to return to your statement of the 23rd of March 2000, that same paragraph where you say "We did that operation as APLA members" what do you mean by that in your statement? MR MBANGI Which statement are you referring to Sir? MR FROST On the 23/03/2000, page 6, fifth paragraph from the bottom. It starts with "We did that operation as APLA members, under the orders of Mandu Befile." What do you mean by the "operation as APLA members"? MR MBANGI APLA was under the PAC, so it was falling under the PAC, that is APLA. MR FROST But Sir, I understood that you weren't a member, or you didn't have formal training from APLA. MR MBANGI I got my training inside, not outside, not in exile. MR FROST Sir, and once again in this statement, this latest statement of the 23/03/2000, the very next paragraph you say "We went to the nearest farm where we robbed and killed late Mr Barnard." Wasn't that your intention, to rob and kill? MR MBANGI Our intention was to rob his weapons, not to kill, but it just happened when we got there. MR FROST Sir, I want to put it to you without wasting time, that you have not made a full disclosure of the true facts. MR MBANGI Which truth do you want except for the one I have just told before the Commission? MR FROST I further want to put it to you that the act, the commission that you made by robbing and killing Mr Barnard, was not associated with a political objective. MR MBANGI You are the one saying that, but I'm saying that it was politically motivated. MR FROST Finally I want to put it to you that it was definitely not in the furtherance of your political struggle, if you belonged to such a political party at the time. MR MBANGI I did what I did to further the struggle of the organisation, not my own personal intentions. MR FROST That is what I finally want to put to you Sir, it's that what you did you did for your own personal financial gain. It may well have been that Mr Barnard died unfortunately, but the robbery at least was committed for pure financial gain for yourself. MR MBANGI I'm not going to dispute that, but what I'm saying is that we were there furthering the interests of the organisation. MR FROST Thank you, Mr Chairman and Members of the Panel, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FROST CHAIRPERSON If I could just clarify one point on this question of personal gain. In your amnesty application on page 3, the question is "Is u op enige wyse bevoordeel finansieel of andersins?" and your answer is: "Kry geld by die PAC vir moorde." The next question is: "Indien wel, verduidelik die aard en omvang daarvan." and the answer it: "Kry geld en vuurwapen vir aanval ten bedrae van R1 700." So you are there saying that you got a reward of R1 700, is that correct? Is that what you have said in your amnesty application? MR MBANGI No, that is not correct, we did not get any money. There was no chance for us to get money, so ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON But you have said there "a reward in an amount of R1 700. The definite amount you've put into your application. MR MBANGI I don't have any knowledge about that money. CHAIRPERSON Well how did you come to put it in your amnesty application? MR MBANGI This also surprises me now, this amount of money. CHAIRPERSON Well continuing for a moment, if I may, on the question of the money, wasn't the intention to rob Mr Barnard at this kraal where he went to sell goats? MR MBANGI Our intention, we went there to rob money and the weapons, but not to kill. CHAIRPERSON But it was where he sold goats, wasn't it? MR MBANGI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And you said that at your trial, in the statement you made. Didn't you? MR MBANGI Yes, this incident happened where Mr Barnard was selling the goats, all of this happened there. CHAIRPERSON Yes, he was driving a thing you called a "skaap lorrie", a sheep truck, a goat truck. That's correct, isn't it? MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Right, I'll leave that for the moment. One other point, you said that these people who were with you became State witnesses, they turned against you. MR MBANGI Yes. CHAIRPERSON That is not true, is it, they were accused people at the trial and they remained accused until two of them were found not guilty. MR MBANGI They were used by the investigators of Louis le Grange, against myself, because I was not with them at the awaiting trial, they were separated from me, they were kept at a separate place. CHAIRPERSON At the trial they were accused people, weren't they, and they gave evidence in their own benefit? MR MBANGI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And I think you have been asked, Mzawuabanthu Stokwe, Briza Stokwe and Mbotjwa, both have made statements saying they went with you to buy a goat. You came and asked them to accompany you to buy a goat. You know that, your lawyer would have shown you the statements. MR MBANGI Yes, I know, that's what they are saying. CHAIRPERSON And that is almost exactly what you said at your trial, as one can see at page 28, that you were asked to go with them to buy goats. MR MBANGI Yes, that's what I said during the trial. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Mbangi, can you explain to the Committee Members how it came about that you were chosen to do this mission? MR MBANGI My Commander, Dadasi, came to me and he said that he wanted three people, so he asked me to look for those three people and I found Mxdisi, Briza and Luyanda Mdamu, and then that's how we became to do this act together. MS THABETHE You have indicated that you were all APLA cadres, do you still maintain this? MR MBANGI Three of us were recruited by myself, Dadasi, Mxdisi, that day. MS THABETHE Wasn't that the same Commander? MR MBANGI Yes, he was my Commander. Mxdisi and Briza and ...(indistinct). MS THABETHE On page 41 of the bundle, Briza has indicated that he never took part in politics and was never recruited to be an APLA member by any party. Can you comment on that? MR MBANGI I read his statement, I read Briza's statement and Briza, they were used even before and they are free now, so I'm not surprised about what he is saying here. MS THABETHE My question is, he says he never took part in politics and he was never recruited to be an APLA member, are you disputing that? Just that fact. MR MBANGI Yes, I'm disputing that. MS THABETHE Tell me, why would Mzawuabanthu Stokwe lie about the fact that he was an APLA member or not? Why would he lie about that? MR MBANGI He even lied about myself. I am where I am today because he is one of the people that lied about myself. MS THABETHE What lie did he tell about you, because I thought in court you said the same thing? MR MBANGI We didn't say the same thing, we were put in separate places. He is the one who turned against me, he became a State witness. JUDGE MOTATA May I just interpose here, Ms Thabethe. Look at page 12 of the bundle, Mr Mbangi. We have there the following people who were charged: "The State against/Die Staat teen: Mxdisi Benjamin Mbotjwa, Mxholiseko Lonki Mbangi (which I take is you), Mzawuabanthu Stokwe, Luyanda Kenneth Madolo." This Stokwe, is it the same person you are talking about right now? MR MBANGI ...(no English interpretation) Briza. JUDGE MOTATA Is that Briza you are talking about? MR MBANGI Yes. JUDGE MOTATA You see the question is that he's charged as well, forget that he was in a separate cell to you, but he appeared and at the end he was discharged. How could he lie about you when he was charged, until when this happened - the thing we have before us is a transcript of the proceedings and this is the judgment given by Judge ...(indistinct) and he found him not to be guilty after he was charged with you throughout. How could you say he lied about you? JUDGE MILLER He certainly wasn't a State witness. MR MBANGI Yes Sir, we were all charged, the five of us were charged and one died, one was arrested on the spot, on the place of the incident, that was Mbotjwa, and Mbotjwa was the one who was sentenced three or five years suspended. Luyanda and Briza were the ones who blamed me about all this, they said that I was the one who took them to this place, but they were also charged, but they were found not guilty, even though they were not innocent because they were involved in this incident, but they were discharged. JUDGE MILLER Sorry, to get back to Ms Thabethe's question. What lies did Stokwe say at the trial? Because on your own evidence, you yourself did take them, you recruited them to take them there. If you hadn't had done that, they never would have gone to that place where goats were being sold. What lies did they tell? MR MBANGI I am here to tell the truth today, but at the court during the trial I didn't tell the truth, but now I'm telling you as it happened, but during those times I couldn't tell it like I'm telling it now. JUDGE MOTATA But according to you, Mr Mbangi, you did not tell them that the mission you were executing was for the purposes of the PAC, that is for the elections and all that, you told that you were going there to rob guns and money. Let's forget about the accidental killing. And according to you, the money would have been shared amongst the five of you and the guns taken to the PAC. Did I heard you correctly this far? MR MBANGI Yes, that's what I said, Sir. JUDGE MOTATA So they knew nothing then, and you agreed when you were asked, that the money you were going to share wouldn't be taken to PAC, they would keep it for themselves. Isn't it so? MR MBANGI We were doing this for the organisation, but they were going to get the money because they knew that we were going to rob money, but we knew that we were doing that for the benefit of the organisation. JUDGE MOTATA So if you had got R1 000, as my colleague had asked you, you'd be getting R200 each. And the others were non-members of the PAC, how were you going to benefit the PAC to get money for elections? MR MBANGI We would take that R1 000 back to the organisation. If we got the R1 000, we'd take it back to the organisation. It was not our intentions to personally gain. JUDGE MOTATA The people who were non-members and who didn't know that you were doing it for PAC, what would they get out of it? MR MBANGI We would give them something to satisfy them, and then we would give them a green light, but we would give them money and then take the remainder, take it to the organisation. JUDGE MOTATA How would PAC benefit out of the guns, because the money was for elections, how would they benefit from the guns? MR MBANGI It was going to be the PAC that was going to take the decision what to do about the money and the weapons. JUDGE MOTATA Did your Commander say that the PAC needed guns and money for elections? MR MBANGI Yes. JUDGE MOTATA And he did not explain to you what the guns would be used for, in the elections? MR MBANGI No, he didn't. JUDGE MOTATA You may proceed, Ms Thabethe. Sorry to have taken so long. MS THABETHE Thank you. It's correct, Mr Mbangi, isn't it, that it's the policy of APLA or the PAC, that when there is a mission that is going to be done, it's first planned properly? MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. MS THABETHE Did this happen with you? MR MBANGI Yes, we planned. We cannot just do something without planning first. MS THABETHE Who did you plan it with? MR MBANGI With the people that were going to do the job. MS THABETHE I'm confused, Mr Mbangi, you're saying you planned this thing with the people who were going to do the job, and minutes before you said you did not - or you confirmed the fact that you did not inform them of what the mission was going to be about, which one is true between those two? MR MBANGI What I did not tell them is that we were going to do this for the benefit of the organisation, but they knew about the mission or about what was going to be done, but we didn't tell them that we were doing this for the benefit of the organisation. MS THABETHE You are changing your story now, Mr Mbangi, do you realise that? MR MBANGI What do you mean I'm changing my story? MR MBANGI Initially you had said Mr Stokwe and Mxdisi Mbotjwa were correct in saying that you went there to buy goats, because they did not know what your mission was, now you are saying they knew what the mission was. Isn't that a contradiction? MR MBANGI They knew, but what they didn't know was that they were doing this for the benefit of the organisation, but they were aware of the job that was going to be done. MS THABETHE I won't take this any further. JUDGE MILLER Ms Thabethe, if I may just intervene while you're talking about this question of planning. You say that missions were well planned. You've told us, Mr Mbangi, that there were five of you to go and carry out this robbery, right? MR MBANGI Yes. JUDGE MILLER You've also said that amongst the five of you, you only had one firearm and that was in the possession of your Commander, Stokwe, is that correct? MR MBANGI Yes. JUDGE MILLER You also said in the statement here that Mandu had given you two firearms, but you only took one with you. Now I want to know, seeing that there's five of you going to do a robbery, you've been given two guns, why do you only take one gun? MR MBANGI What happened is, the person who took the firearm is the deceased, our Commander. He is the one who took the gun. JUDGE MILLER Do you know why only one gun was taken when you say that Mandu made two guns available? MR MBANGI I was just obeying the orders of my Commander, I was doing what he told me to do, so I had no right to dispute or to argue with him. JUDGE MILLER Yes, thank you. Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Mbangi, Mr Befile has informed us that you are brothers, in that you have the same mother, are you disputing this fact? MR MBANGI ...(no English interpretation) MS THABETHE Mandu Befile. MR MBANGI We are not brothers, Mandu has got his own mother and I have my own mother. MS THABETHE Okay. I want to go back to the list of people you went with, was Vuyani Befile there? MR MBANGI No, Mxdisi Mbotjwa was the one who was there. MS THABETHE Do you know who Vuyani Befile is? MR MBANGI Yes. MS THABETHE And are you saying he was not there? MR MBANGI He was there during the mission, but the police didn't include him. It was only the four of us who were charged. From the time that we were arrested they could not find Vuyani, so it was very difficult for us to mention him. MS THABETHE So in actual fact there were six of you, not five of you, isn't it? MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct. MS THABETHE Now on page 4 of your statement, the last sentence, you've indicated that the late Mzawuabanthu Stokwe was shot dead, do you still maintain this? MR MBANGI Yes, he was shot there. MS THABETHE But Mr Mbangi, Mr Mzawuabanthu Stokwe is still alive. JUDGE MILLER Are you sure you're not making the same mistake that I made earlier, Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE I'm sure about this, Mr Chair. JUDGE MILLER Oh, so both Mr Mziwuabanthu and Mr Mzawuabanthu, they're both still alive? MS THABETHE It's the same person, Mr Chair. JUDGE MILLER Okay, sorry. Carry on. MS THABETHE Mr Mbangi, Mr Mzawuabanthu Stokwe is still alive, are you sure it's Mr Mzawuabanthu Stokwe who was shot dead? MR MBANGI Yes, I'm sure it was Mzawuabanthu Tata Stokwe, and there is also Mzawuabanthu Stokwe. MS THABETHE So are you saying there are two Mzawuabanthu Stokwes now? MR MBANGI Yes, their names are similar. JUDGE MILLER Ms Thabethe, if you take a look at page 28 and page 4, this is what Mr Mbandazayo pointed out to me earlier. Accused number 3 at the trial is Mzwua... Do you see? Take a look at page 28. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson, I ...(intervention) JUDGE MILLER And then the one mentions - sorry, Mr Mbandazayo, the one mentioned on page 4, the spelling is different. MS THABETHE Mr Chair, the way I understand it, I stand to be corrected, is that the person who died is Dadasi Befile/Stokwe. It's not clear, but Mzawuabanthu Stokwe, there's only one Mzawuabanthu Stokwe. JUDGE MILLER Yes, but Mziwuabanthu and Mzawuabanthu are two different names? That's what I'm trying to say. If you take a look at ...(intervention) MR MBANDAZAYO Yes Chairperson, what I'm trying to get at, when somebody is narrating to you, you will get it as the same name, you will think that he's talking about Mzawuabanthu, yet it's Mziwuabanthu. That's where the difference is. JUDGE MILLER It's like Steven in English, if you say Steven or Steven, it could be spelt p-h or with a v? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson. The mistake is that someone who was taking the statement thought that Mzawuabanthu is the same person, otherwise the other one who would die, it is Mziwuabanthu. M-z-i-w-u-a, he's the one who died. Nickane: Dadasi Stokwe. Then Mzawuabanthu Stokwe, the brother, is the one who is alive, who was also charged. That is M-z-a-w-u-a. JUDGE MOTATA For my own clarification, if I may come in here. We know that there is a Mzawuabanthu who has been charged, is it Mziwuabanthu, or Mzawuabanthu who was charged with Mr Mbangi? MR MBANDAZAYO It's Mzawuabanthu, M-z-w-u-a. That's the Mzawuabanthu who was charged. JUDGE MOTATA And Mziwuabanthu is the one who got killed at the scene? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson. JUDGE MOTATA So let me get it right then. At the scene of the mission, to use Mr Mbangi's statement's wording, is that there was Mbotjwa, himself, Mziwuabanthu, Mzawuabanthu, Madolo and Befile. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes. JUDGE MOTATA Now it's clear. MS THABETHE What is that other surname, Stokwe? MR MBANGI Stokwe. MS THABETHE Not Befile? JUDGE MILLER No, the last one is Vuyani Befile I think. MR MBANGI Yes, it's Stokwe. MS THABETHE I'm asking you because earlier on you said it's Tata Befile Stokwe. Is that correct? MR MBANGI Tata se Stokwe. MS THABETHE Not Tata se Befile Stokwe? MR MBANGI No. MS THABETHE Okay. Thank you Mr Chair, I'm indebted to you. If you can bear with me, Mr Chair. Okay, you've also indicated that your intention when you went to this farm, was not to kill Mr Barnard, is that correct? MR MBANGI That is correct. MS THABETHE Now why did you kill him? MR MBANGI That just happened when we were there, because Mr Barnard didn't want to surrender, he wanted to fight back. So that's how it happened. MS THABETHE If I may go back a bit, you indicated that you had planned this mission, how did you plan to execute it? In other words, where were you going to get the weapons and the money from? MR MBANGI We were going to get the weapons and the money from Mr Barnard. JUDGE MOTATA Where? If I may come in. Where? Because now he's at this place where there are goats and in his lorry and the house is further away from there, where, when you went to him? Was he was at where he was selling goats or sheep? MR MBANGI The house was next to his truck, so we thought that Mr Barnard was going to surrender and then we'd take him to the house, but it didn't happen that way. JUDGE MOTATA So he's shot dead, why didn't you proceed to the house to get the money and the weapons? MR MBANGI It was due to time constraints, we had no time to go inside and it was not our intention to shoot at him, so that's why we decided to leave the place after that happened. MS THABETHE If you went there to rob only, and you're telling us now as I understand, Barnard's truck was parked right next to the house, is that correct? MR MBANGI That is correct. MS THABETHE Why didn't you wait for him to get out of his truck? MR MBANGI Get out how? MS THABETHE I thought you shot him while he was still inside the truck and he fell in the truck. MR MBANGI Yes, he was in the truck, he was shot in the truck. MS THABETHE "Get out" means open the door and climb out, why didn't you wait for him to do that if he had come with his vehicle to his home? MR MBANGI The door of the truck was opened, Mr Barnard was accepting money and there were sheep and goats at the kraal. He was accepting money and the door was opened, his feet were outside. His firearm was on the truck, on the ceiling of the truck. MS THABETHE So he was doing business there, selling goats. MR MBANGI Yes. MS THABETHE He wasn't parked outside his home. MR MBANGI The house was next - he parked next to the house. MS THABETHE Well if he was selling goats from his home, why did he need to park the truck there? MR MBANGI The truck was also in his land. JUDGE MILLER Mr Mbangi, could you indicate a distance how far the truck was from the house? Can you indicate a distance in the room, or is it further than this, any distance in this room? Just approximately. MR MBANGI I can say that the house is here where I am sitting and then the truck was parked next to the corner of the room. JUDGE MILLER Of the room, where you see that "No Smoking" sign in the light there? MR MBANGI Yes. JUDGE MILLER That would be 30 paces, about 30 paces. MR MBANDAZAYO I would 13 metres. I'm using the marking on the door ...(indistinct - no microphone) about 13 metres. JUDGE MILLER Do you agree? 15, say. MS THABETHE We're going to adjourn in a few minutes and I will then invite counsel to pace it off. MS THABETHE Can I proceed? Just a few. Mr Mbangi, I want to put it to you that it was not necessary for you to shoot Mr Barnard. JUDGE MILLER He said Stokwe shot him. You mean the son? MS THABETHE Yes. JUDGE MILLER What do you mean? MS THABETHE Do you mean you in the singular, or you as a group? MS THABETHE You as a group. They were all in this together and it just happened. I want to put it to you, Mr Mbangi, that there were six of you, you could have overpowered Mr Barnard and got the weapons and the money that you were looking for, it was not necessary to kill him. What is your response to that? MR MBANGI What I'm saying is, it was not our intention to kill him, but Mr Barnard drew out the weapon from the truck, so when he was doing that, it was then that we shot, that my Commander shot at him. But it was not our aim to kill him. MS THABETHE Are you suggesting now that your Commander killed him in self-defence? MR MBANGI Yes, I can say that because he was taking out a firearm, so there was no other way. MS THABETHE And should I take it that you are saying you couldn't overpower him, the six of you? MR MBANGI No, if ...(intervention) JUDGE MILLER Ms Thabethe, we heard that he said that the two of them went to the truck, the others went to the kraal. MS THABETHE Okay. I'll withdraw the question then, Mr Chair. Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON I'm not sure what arrangements are made for the various interested parties to obtain refreshments over the luncheon period, whether they do so here or whether they have to go back to the city, in which case they will take more time. MS THABETHE Mr Chair, I would like to ascertain that from Joe, our Logistics Officer, I'm actually not sure as well. CHAIRPERSON I'm wondering what time we adjourn till. It is now five minutes past, should we say quarter to two, if we aren't here by then we'll have to wait, if we are ready to go on at quarter to two, we will do so. Does that suit you? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We'll now adjourn. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION NXHOLISEKO MBANGI (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Right, shall we continue? Had you finished? CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Only on one aspect, Chairperson, only on what came out that there was a sixth person, which of course all the time we had five people. Mr Mbangi, can you tell the Committee why didn't you tell them about the sixth person? INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. MR MBANGI Accused number 6 was not found by the police, so his name was not mentioned from the start when the trial started in front of the judge. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Mbangi, didn't you come to the Commission to tell the Commission what happened on the day in question, the whole truth about what actually took place? We understand why he was not mentioned in court, because this person was not charged, but now here you said you wanted to disclose everything regarding this particular offence, why didn't you mention this person, this sixth person? MR MBANGI It is because when the trial started, the investigators did not include accused number 6, so that it why I decided not to mention his name but to mention those that were charged with me. MR MBANDAZAYO That is all, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Before my colleagues get a chance, there is one question that I would like to ask you. I think we've all seen it, but it hasn't been specifically put. You made two statements, the second statement being on the 23rd of March of this year, is that so? Page 6 and 7. You've seen it? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now on page 7, in the second paragraph you say "It must be mentioned that Mandu issued me with a 9mm pistol." MR MBANGI He gave it to the deceased, Mandu gave it to the deceased. CHAIRPERSON That is not what you say in your statement. MR MBANGI But what I know is that there was only one weapon and it was given to the deceased. CHAIRPERSON And it has been put to you that you did not take Mr Barnard's weapon and you have told us, and it also appears in your statement, that you didn't take any of the weapons or any of the loot from Mzawuabanthu Stokwe. Is that correct? MR MBANGI Yes, that is correct, Mzawuabanthu Stokwe was the one with the firearm. CHAIRPERSON Well what firearm did you use? MR MBANGI I was having a knife with me. I found the firearm in Mr Barnard's possession. CHAIRPERSON Where did you find it? In Mr Barnard's possession? MR MBANGI Mr Barnard fell down and his firearm also fell down and then I took it. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. JUDGE MILLER Just one very quick question. Was this your first operation as an APLA cadre? MR MBANGI Yes, it was my first operation. JUDGE MILLER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Any further evidence? MR MBANDAZAYO None Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Frost? MR FROST Mr Chairperson, Members of the Panel, the victim's family opposes this application and the victim's son, Mr Petrus Frederick Barnard will testify to the opposition and also to certain factual issues pertaining to the evidence of the applicant. To gainsay such factual issues. CHAIRPERSON Well as I understand the applicant's concession that he does not oppose most of what was put to him because he doesn't really know who this person was that he called Mr Barnard's son, I trust it won't take us too long. MR FROST It won't take too long, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Your full names please. MR BARNARD Petrus Frederick Barnard. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any objection to taking the oath? PETRUS FREDERICK BARNARD (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR FROST Mr Barnard, you're the son of the deceased, or one of the sons of the deceased, is that correct? MR BARNARD Yes. MR FROST Now on the 20th of November 1992, when the deceased was shot and killed, where did this take place? MR BARNARD It's on a farm just outside Uitenhage, at Rooihoogte. MR FROST Was it the deceased's farm? MR BARNARD No, it a friend of the deceased hired the farm from the man. MR FROST Can you tell us what the property looked like? Was it built up? MR BARNARD No, it was just wire kraals that were used to sell goats. There was one bush in the corner, at the corner of the border fence and the rest was just flat clean ground. JUDGE MILLER Sorry, Mr Barnard, the nearest house from those kraals, how far would you indicate such house to be? MR BARNARD It was the neighbour on the next door's farm, about 300 metres, with a gravel road in-between. MR FROST So there was an actual gravel road separating the kraals from where this neighbouring house is. MR BARNARD Ja, there's a boundary fence next to the road on the farm that my father was, and then there's another boundary fence on the other side of the road, that's the boundary fence of the fence of the next farm. MR FROST What business did your father - or if any, what business did he do on this property? MR BARNARD Every Friday morning at approximately 9 o'clock he will load the lorry with goats and sheep and then he will go up to the kraals there and sell it till say about 5 o'clock, then he will come back to the farm and the next morning round about six, then I would load the lorry up, my father will take the bakkie and then they will go up there and sell goats till 1 o'clock and then they will be coming back to the farm. MR FROST Can you tell us approximately how far was this place where your father sold goats, to his actual farm where he lived on? MR BARNARD It's round about seven kilometres away from the farm. MR FROST Now on the particular day in question, on the 20th of November 1992, did you at all visit your father at this premises where he was selling goats on that day? MR BARNARD Yes, I work at the Transnet ...(indistinct) and I left at quarter to four from my workplace and I went straight up to my father. We spoke and I drank some cool-drink with him and say about quarter past four to - round about quarter past four I left him, 'cause he was busy building a house for him and I have to take the builders back to town, and I left him that time. MR FROST Do you know whether your father was armed on that day? MR BARNARD Yes, he always a revolver, 38 revolver with him, but not on his person himself, he always stuck it away in the truck between the two front seats. MR FROST Now did you receive a report later that day that your father had been shot? MR BARNARD Yes. On my way to town when I was busy bringing the builders back to town, one of our bakkies came to me and stopped me and said my father was shot and I immediately just dropped the builders there at the spot and I went up to the kraals where my father was selling goats. MR FROST What did you find when you got there? MR BARNARD When I - there's a gate that you can drive into where the lorry was standing and I took that road, and as I approached the truck I just saw my father's feet sticking out of the door and I climbed out of the bakkie and went to him. He was lying in front of the truck. MR FROST Inside the truck? MR BARNARD Inside the truck on the front seat, and his revolver was lying on the floor next to the lorry's gear lever, on the floor. MR FROST So you confirm that he was not dispossessed of his firearm? MR BARNARD No. MR FROST Would it also be so that he got cash money for the goats that he would sell to persons while being there? MR BARNARD The only cash that he had on him was the money he kept to give the people change, a few notes and a few coins. The other money was put in a safe, like a - there was like a safe that you can throw your money through it and the key wasn't in the truck, it was left at the farmhouse. JUDGE MILLER So any money that he got from the selling of goats or sheep, was any of that taken? Did you determine at any stage? MR BARNARD No. JUDGE MILLER It was all in that safe. MR BARNARD The money was in the safe and the change that my father kept was in his pockets. MR FROST Now you also attended the trial ...(intervention) JUDGE MILLER Sorry, just before you leave the scene, Mr Frost, if I could ask a question. Did you determine or did you learn that anybody else had been shot when you were at the scene? MR BARNARD No, nobody else was shot. MR FROST Were any firearms robbed from any person at the scene or taken from any person at the scene? MR BARNARD No, the only firearm that was on the scene was my father's 38 special and then the firearm that was used to shoot my father. MR FROST Did the killing of your father have any affect on your family life? MR BARNARD Yes, it affected my mother very much, 'cause she still battles to sleep properly and for a few years after my father's death, she couldn't sleep, she was always staying awake during the night and it took her, I don't know, a couple of years to get back to her sleeping pattern, and she still battles with the death of my father. MR FROST And I presume it affected you negatively as well. MR BARNARD Yes. MR FROST Do you formally oppose the application by the applicant? MR BARNARD Yes. MR FROST That is the evidence, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FROST CHAIRPERSON Cross-examination? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson, it's not cross-examination, it's just clarity. Mr Barnard, let me first say to you that I'm sorry for what you went through during the time of your bereavement when you lost your father. MR BARNARD Thanks. MR MBANDAZAYO Now what I want to know is, where you indicated that your father was selling these goats, was there anything like a farm stall, like some makeshift house or building, which was around that area? MR BARNARD There was nothing, no building or structure near the kraals, it's just the truck, say five paces away from the kraal, where the people that buy the goats come and pay. That was all that was on that piece of land there. MR MBANDAZAYO Who was helping your father, was there any other person except your father, or were there some labourers? MR BARNARD There were, I think, if I can recall it correctly, I think there were three or four labourers at the kraals that day, plus the chap that's - the ground that we were selling from, that gentleman was there and his son was also there at the time of the shooting. MR MBANDAZAYO Will you be in a position to indicate what do they say? Are they the people maybe who returned fire after they had - or is there anything that they did? That is the other two gentlemen. MR BARNARD No-one that was there at that moment had a firearm except my father and the other gentleman that was also killed. MR MBANDAZAYO Now lastly, Mr Barnard, you have heard what the applicant is saying, that the reason why he went there was not to kill your father, but was to take money and arms and they were acting on behalf of the PAC, their organisation, as ordered by their Commander. What do you say to that? MR BARNARD If they wanted they arms and money, why didn't they just ask for it, why did they have to shoot my father? MR MBANDAZAYO As you heard, they thought that he was resisting, he tried to pull his gun and that's why they shot him. MR BARNARD Nobody tried to pull my father's gun away or had a gun. The driver's door was locked, my father was lying in the truck, nobody could get to the gun, except to climb into the lorry, and nobody did try to get into the lorry. JUDGE MILLER But I think what Mr Mbandazayo is saying is, maybe your father took out his gun when he saw this person with a gun, because you say the gun was found next to the gear lever and it normally wasn't kept there, it was kept between the seats. So how would the gun have got to be next to the gear lever, unless your father had taken it. MR BARNARD Maybe my father saw that he had a gun and took out his gun, we wouldn't know because I wasn't there at the specific time, but my father wasn't a violent man, so he didn't shoot somebody for nothing. So if the guy produces a gun, my father would presumably take out his gun and try to defend himself. That's the only thing. CHAIRPERSON Was the other person lying there dead when you arrived? MR BARNARD Ja, the one that shot my father was shot, he was lying, I think, about 20 - no, 15 paces away from the truck in the gravel road. He was lying there with his gun. JUDGE MILLER And the only conclusion is probably, although we know you weren't there, was that he was shot by your father. MR BARNARD Ja. CHAIRPERSON Did anyone examine your father's revolver and see if there was a fired cartridge in it? MR BARNARD I don't know if they examined his revolver, but his revolver was taken away for I don't know how long and it was in the police' possession, I think for over a year, so I presume they would have done tests on the revolver, Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO I'm indebted to the Committee, Chairperson. My last question will be, are you opposed to the amnesty by the applicant because you feel that it was not politically motivated, or because he had not made a full disclosure of what actually took place? MR BARNARD I oppose it because he doesn't disclose the truth. Why didn't he mention the sixth person and why did he always - there's contradiction in his statements, so I oppose the application. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Barnard. MR BARNARD Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO MS THABETHE No questions, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE MR FROST No re-examination, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FROST CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Was Mr Mostert senior present there that day? MR BARNARD Yes, Sir, he was standing next to my father, next to the truck by the door. JUDGE MILLER Is he the owner of that piece of ground? MR BARNARD He's not the owner, he hired it. JUDGE MILLER Oh, he was the Lessee. MR BARNARD Yes, Sir. JUDGE MILLER You say his son was also there. MR BARNARD Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR FROST That is the evidence for the victim. WITNESS EXCUSED MS THABETHE I have no questions, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Not questions, are you going to lead any evidence? MS THABETHE No, I'm not going to lead any evidence. CHAIRPERSON Has anybody spoken to the Mosterts? MS THABETHE Sorry, Mr Chair? Has anyone spoken to the Mosterts? CHAIRPERSON Mosterts. MS THABETHE No, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON His evidence appears to conflict directly with that of the applicant, going by what the evidence that was set out in the judgment in the trial. MS THABETHE Mr Chair, we relied mainly on the evidence of the other co-perpetrators, as opposed to that of the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Very well, does that conclude all the evidence that we're to hear? MS THABETHE Yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Argument? MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, I'm not intending to bore you with my argument, trying to come up with solutions to questions that you might have. Mine is suffice to say to the Committee that we have placed enough evidence before the Committee, and the applicant has given evidence and also through cross-examination he has put forward the reason and why he was involved in the incident. And as such, Chairperson, I don't want to dilute his evidence. As I indicated that it's suffice to say that the Committee will be in a position to reach a fair and a just decision on this matter, on that evidence. Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You are happy that we should decide on the evidence of the applicant? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you wish to say anything? MR FROST IN ARGUMENT Mr Chairperson, the position is the same, save to say that his evidence is riddled with contradictions considering his statements. It's my submission that he did not make a full and open and honest disclosure to this Panel, and neither is he supported anywhere for the fact that he did this with a political motive. Those are my submissions. MS THABETHE IN ARGUMENT Thank you, Mr Chair. My submissions are that it appears from the applicant that this was - even though the applicant says it was planned, but it appears that it was not properly planned and it looks like what appears to be an APLA unit, was actually not an APLA unit, because there were some members who did not belong to the APLA that allegedly were also involved in this operation. Furthermore Mr Chair, it appears that the killing was - the act was committed purely for personal gain, of robbing the farmer as he was selling goats and it appears, or it's probable, supported by the statements of Mzawuabanthu Stokwe, who was also there on that day, and Mxdisi Mbotjwa, who was also present on that day, that the intention of going to Mr Barnard's farm was to buy goats and not to further the objectives of the PAC, and my submission, Mr Chair, is that this amnesty application should be refused. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON We'll take time. We'll proceed now to the next matter. MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair, as the Committee pleases.