amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-08 THOHOYANDOU 1 ANDREW RAMMBWA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54160&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200508th.htm MR NDOU Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Before I proceed Honourable Chairperson, I also wish to indicate that we are lucky, the applicant we were looking for, has arrived, and he will be ready to proceed. I am now going to call Andrew Rammbwa, who is the second applicant. CHAIRPERSON Mr Rammbwa, which language would you prefer to use? MR RAMMBWA Venda. ANDREW RAMMBWA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please proceed. EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU Thank you Honourable Chairman. You are the applicant in this matter and when were you born? MR RAMMBWA I was born on the 3rd of March 1967. MR NDOU I see and you are presently serving a prison service in the Thohoyandou Medium A prison? Is that correct? MR RAMMBWA Yes, that is correct. MR NDOU And now, you have applied for amnesty in terms of Section 18 of the Amnesty Act. For which charges do you want to apply for amnesty? CHAIRPERSON Don't you think it is safer for you to tell us that at the end of the hearing? MR NDOU Oh, thank you Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Rammbwa, you know why you are at this hearing, not so? It is in connection, as I understand your written application, with the death of Mr Edward Mavhunga and the incident that occurred the day he died at his house? MR RAMMBWA Yes, I know that. CHAIRPERSON Were you present at the previous hearing when all the historical details were given to us? MR RAMMBWA I was present here all the time. CHAIRPERSON You heard what was said at that time? MR RAMMBWA Yes, of course. CHAIRPERSON Do you agree with what was said in respect of the background and the history that led to this attack? MR RAMMBWA Yes, I agree with everything. CHAIRPERSON Tell us what you did yourself, in respect of that incident. MR RAMMBWA I went to the deceased's home in order to ask him to leave the Village and the deceased refused to leave the Village. Before further talks can be pursued, the deceased started to throw the spear to the crowd and the stones and he was also using the assegai and then the people threw the stones back. I am one of the people who really threw the stones to the deceased. Furthermore when we were fighting with the deceased, it is then that the deceased was fighting very hard, and I was also there fighting with him. It happened that people decided to stop the people, to say let the children and the wife leave the place because we were not fighting with them, and then those people were taken out and were taken to the chief's kraal and then the deceased remained in the house. When the deceased remained in the house, what I did to the deceased then is that I took furniture which was there, while the deceased was alone, while others had already left, I took the furniture and threw it on top of the deceased while it was burning, and I also burnt the furniture which was inside the house. That is all. MR NDOU I don't know if we should take this any further Honourable Chair? JUDGE DE JAGER Perhaps for clarity, he was accused 8 at the trial according to the charge sheet on page 34? MR RAMMBWA Yes, it is true. JUDGE DE JAGER Then if you can look at the sentence on page 46 or page 93 of the numbered volumes, he was sentenced on counts 1, 2, 3 and 7. Count 1 being the public violence in entering the people, Petrus Mavhunga; count 2 setting fire on the property of Edward Mavhunga; count 3 had the intention to injure Edward Mavhunga and count 7 killing Edward Mavhunga? Would that be the matters in which he is applying for amnesty? MR RAMMBWA Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER All those he was convicted on? MR RAMMBWA I am applying for amnesty with regards to that. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. Were you involved too in setting fire to the house of Edward Mavhunga on the 28th of February 1990? MR RAMMBWA Yes, it is correct. JUDGE DE JAGER So you are applying for incidents on the 28th of February 1990 as well as the incidents on the 6th of April 1990? MR RAMMBWA Yes, I am asking regarding all these aspects. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr van Rensburg? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Rammbwa, you were not present at the meeting on the 6th of April, is that correct? MR RAMMBWA I was in that meeting. MR VAN RENSBURG If the Chairperson will just give me one second, please. CHAIRPERSON While Mr van Rensburg is looking for his things, can I ask you something that he is likely to put to you. This grouping of youth that was referred to as the Mavhunga Youth Congress, did it exist? MR RAMMBWA Yes, it once existed. CHAIRPERSON If someone had to come put it to you that it didn't exist, what would you say? MR RAMMBWA A person who would say that it never existed, is a person who never attended our meetings. CHAIRPERSON Are you ready? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Rammbwa, I refer you to a statement that you made that was contained in the Police docket, in case docket CR11/4/90. CHAIRPERSON What page is that? MR VAN RENSBURG Page 9 and 9(b) of the bundle. JUDGE DE JAGER Is that the numbered pages? MR VAN RENSBURG That is the numbered pages, yes. Do you have the relevant passage that I am referring to? MR RAMMBWA I don't have them with me here. CHAIRPERSON Isn't it easier for you to tell him what is written in there? MR VAN RENSBURG I will do that. Thank you. You see in that statement, and I put it to you as a statement, that you can react to, in that specific statement that I have referred to, you have stated that you were at the time at the soccer ground when the people arrived, singing, in a group and saying that they are proceeding to the kraal of one Mavhunga. CHAIRPERSON Mr van Rensburg, we've got to be very careful here. The statement doesn't seem to be signed or attested to or whatever, I am not too sure whether, what the source is of this. So we've got to tread very careful here, let's find out from him if that is what he said. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is the object of my question, we can handle it on that basis, yes. Mr Ndou, can I just ask you, have you shown him the relevant passage? MR NDOU Yes, he is looking at it. MR VAN RENSBURG Thank you. Mr Rammbwa, do you see that statement that is contained in that bundle that has been given to us? MR RAMMBWA Yes. MR VAN RENSBURG Okay, is that a statement made by yourself to the Police? CHAIRPERSON In that statement it says there that you were at the soccer ground and boys arrived there, singing. Did you tell anybody that? MR RAMMBWA I am surprised to see that statement, I don't know it. CHAIRPERSON It says further that they told you that they were proceeding to the kraal of one Mavhunga. Did you tell anybody that? MR RAMMBWA No, I didn't tell anybody that. CHAIRPERSON It then states there that "we" which includes you, arrived at the said kraal and it was set alight. MR RAMMBWA No, I disagree with that. CHAIRPERSON "Abel Muhadi lit the match and then set the hut on fire", did you tell anybody that? MR RAMMBWA No, I didn't tell anybody about that. CHAIRPERSON The hut got burnt. From there they said that they wanted to proceed to a place called Condeni. Did you tell anybody that? MR RAMMBWA No. CHAIRPERSON "From there I did not accompany them any more, they proceeded to Condeni." Did you tell anybody that? MR RAMMBWA No, I didn't tell anybody that. CHAIRPERSON "I only noticed when the huts were on fire, that is all." Did you tell anybody that? MR RAMMBWA No, I didn't tell anybody that. CHAIRPERSON Mr van Rensburg, we have gone through the whole statement. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. I will continue. Have you in fact made a statement, a warning statement to the Police after you had been arrested for these specific instances after the death of Mr Mavhunga? Have you made a warning statement, that is the question? MR RAMMBWA No. MR VAN RENSBURG Mr Chairman, if necessary, I will follow that up with other evidence later, I have no further questions to this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG MR MAPOMA No questions, Mr Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, have you got any questions? MR NDOU Nothing further Honourable Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU JUDGE DE JAGER According to the evidence in court, given by Rosinnah, you were one who hit her with your fist when she left the house? MR RAMMBWA No, I didn't beat her. JUDGE DE JAGER That is on page 74 of the record. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, I think you must look very carefully at what he is applying for because I think what he is sentenced for and what he has testified to, may not be inclusive of each other. MR NDOU Honourable Chairperson, I have noticed now that the charge of public violence, does not come out clearly. Although he does say in general terms that he is applying for amnesty in respect of the arson charges and the murder charge. CHAIRPERSON As I understand this sentence, the public violence was alternative to count 2 which was a first attempt of arson. The application does not refer to that one. MR NDOU Okay. CHAIRPERSON But at any rate, I will leave it in your hands, you will tell us at the end. MR NDOU Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR NDOU My assistant is just whispering to me that the third applicant who has arrived, indicates that he is not prepared to proceed with the matter. We just want to find out if he wants us to have the application withdrawn. Honourable Chairman, the applicant indicates to me that he is no longer interested, he wishes to withdraw the application. CHAIRPERSON You are Ailwei Maivha? MR MAIVHA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Your Attorney has just informed us that you wish to withdraw the application for amnesty that you made some time in 1996? MR MAIVHA Yes, it is correct. CHAIRPERSON It relates to the attack on Mr Mavhunga's homestead when he died? MR MAIVHA Yes, it is correct. CHAIRPERSON I understand you have travelled from Johannesburg to come here today? MR MAIVHA Yes, it is true. CHAIRPERSON When did you decide you wanted to withdraw this matter? MR MAIVHA It is now, because I want this thing to be postponed, I don't think I can speak effectively. I think if I cannot be allowed, if you cannot postpone my case to a further date, then I think for now, I am tired. I feel like sleeping, I won't be able to make an effective contribution. CHAIRPERSON Wait, we will come to that. When did you decide you wanted to withdraw, today? MR MAIVHA Yes, it is now, today. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou was representing you some time in July last year, is that not so? MR MAIVHA Yes, it is correct. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you contact him some time ago to find out "look, what is my position"? MR MAIVHA I didn't think about it in the past, it is something that I am deciding just now. CHAIRPERSON No, when did you know you must come here, when did you decide you were coming here? MR MAIVHA I knew about this, that I will be testifying here, within two weeks. CHAIRPERSON Two weeks ago? MR MAIVHA Yes, two weeks ago. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you contact Mr Ndou? MR MAIVHA I was not in possession of his phone number. CHAIRPERSON What do you want to do now? MR MAIVHA For now I was asking Mr Ndou, I was asking Mr Ndou that my mind is not well today, and I asked him to postpone this for tomorrow, then I decided to withdraw, because for now, I cannot testify. CHAIRPERSON Why can't you testify? MR MAIVHA I am tired, strained and feeling asleep and I don't think, I want to make up my mind so that my mind can refresh so that I can give evidence. CHAIRPERSON Why are you sleepy? It is twelve o'clock? MR MAIVHA I am tired, I have just arrived and the transport which I was using, was not comfortable and I am feeling sleepy and tired now. CHAIRPERSON Did you not sleep last night? MR MAIVHA No, I didn't sleep last night. CHAIRPERSON What did you do last night? MR MAIVHA I was sitting on a train coming back to this hearing. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you come to Thohoyandou, let's say Friday or Saturday? MR MAIVHA I was working on those days. CHAIRPERSON The first time you could get onto a train was yesterday, last night? MR MAIVHA Yes, that is right. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou your client has asked us to postpone this matter. The best I can do is till tomorrow morning. Hopefully he will be able to sleep tonight, to find somewhere comfortable to sleep so that he is not in a similar condition tomorrow. I am a bit perturbed that he didn't take you into his confidence and merely told you that he wants to withdraw the matter without really asking you and telling you what his condition was. But nonetheless, we will come to his assistance and postpone the matter till tomorrow morning, nine o'clock. Let us come to this agreement in front of him, if he is not here nine o'clock, that is the end of the matter. Do you understand that, Mr Maivha? MR MAIVHA Yes, I understand that. CHAIRPERSON I didn't hear that? MR MAIVHA Yes, I agree. CHAIRPERSON Okay, because we are indulging now, and I can quite understand that maybe you are in that situation not because of your own fault, but we have 15 other matters to see to. You will see there behind you are people who have an interest in the quick solution of these hearings. Fortunately for you, you are not in their position and therefore I would ask you to see to it that we don't waste further time. It is possible that some of them may be released some time. Do you understand? MR MAIVHA Yes, I understand. CHAIRPERSON Your hearing then is postponed until tomorrow morning. MR NDOU Thank you Honourable Chairman, we will submit his affidavit today. CHAIRPERSON Well aside from that, tomorrow morning, without wasting time, what these three people are applying for, I would expect you to be in a position to tell us tomorrow. MR NDOU Thank you Honourable Chair.