amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-08 THOHOYANDOU 1 ABADFANI JOSEPH LUKHWA AM3298/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54161&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200508th.htm CHAIRPERSON Are we ready to proceed with the other matter? Mr van Rensburg, I assume you would be available tomorrow? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Are we ready to proceed with the other matter, that will be incident 1, we just have to confirm with the Advocate whether he is ready. I think that is the only, I don't know, I am not involved in that matter. CHAIRPERSON I assume, he is sitting here, I assume he is ready otherwise he would be consulting hopefully. Are we ready to proceed or do you need a short adjournment? MR NDOU From my position Chairperson, we are ready. I don't know what the position of the lawyer for the victims are. CHAIRPERSON Are you ready ? MR VAN RENSBURG May I then be excused for the moment? Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Is tomorrow okay with you Mr van Rensburg, nine o'clock? Then you are excused Mr van Rensburg. Mr van Rensburg, I have ruled, perhaps unfairly in your absence, but that all the victims be brought to the hearing tomorrow, so that we can get on a roll and finish as many as we can. As and when we are finished with the hearing, those people who have an interest in a particular hearing, can go home. I just thought I would mention that to you, because I made that ruling in your absence. Mr Mushasha, you appear for the victims? MR MUSHASHA Mr Chairperson, I appear for the victims in incident 1, all the victims. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, will you proceed? MR NDOU Thank you Honourable Chairman, I call Abadfani Joseph Lukhwa. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lukhwa, what language would you prefer to use? MR LUKHWA Venda. ABADFANI JOSEPH LUKHWA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU Thank you Honourable Chairman. Mr Lukhwa, you are the applicant in this matter and you reside at Folovhodwe, is that correct? MR LUKHWA Yes, it is correct. MR NDOU You are applied for amnesty in respect of several murder charges for which you were convicted by the High Court of Intenda, is that correct? MR LUKHWA Yes, that is correct. MR NDOU And you were also convicted of several arson counts, which were committed at various kraals at Folovhodwe Village, is that right? MR LUKHWA Yes, that is correct. JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, before going on, in my record, I haven't got pages 52 up to page 70. I don't know whether it is the same in everybody's record? If it was agreed that it wouldn't form part of the record, I am not perturbed by it, but I just want to make sure. MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, those pages do not appear even on my bundle and I suppose almost everybody's bundle. I don't know what happened, I will have to find out from Cape Town. I know of no reason why such pages are not here at this point. JUDGE DE JAGER I don't think they are essential to be here if it is agreed by all. CHAIRPERSON If there is anything within that missing part that we need to know, we will trust that the representatives will give us copies of the relevant portion. MR NDOU Yes, Mr Chairperson, yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON If it becomes important. MR NDOU Thank you Honourable Chairman, when were you born? MR LUKHWA In 1955, on the 4th of ... MR NDOU I see. Can you explain to the Committee as to the background relating to all these charges with which you were charged? MR LUKHWA Yes, I can explain. MR NDOU Yes? MR LUKHWA On the 10th, it was at about eight o'clock coming from work at Chekondeni ... CHAIRPERSON On the 10th of what? MR NDOU What is the date? MR LUKHWA On the 10th of March. CHAIRPERSON What year? MR LUKHWA 1990. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR NDOU Yes, you can proceed. MR LUKHWA On that day I was coming from work, my work place on Saturday, it was roundabout six o'clock. We went to a certain village next to Mr Nenzhelele's kraal. While I was there, sitting, I heard people singing and as they were singing, I was not aware of what was happening because I was coming from work at Chekondeni. It is then that I see people go up and down, all the men and women running away. I also decided to run away because I wasn't aware of what was happening. As I was going home, I met a group of youth who asked me as to whether I am Abadfani. I agreed and they told me that "today we are going to villages of or the kraals of the people who are against our rights or changes." On looking onto that, I agreed with them, but unfortunately I didn't attend the meeting, but I agreed with their suggestions. I accompanied them, I went to a certain kraal of Mr Maulusi. Maulusi kraal is next to my home, but because the kraal was big, I immediately realised that the hut was burning, but I didn't participate there because I realised that they were my neighbours. As the house was burning, we went further, we went to a certain kraal of Mr Tshibalo. CHAIRPERSON You say you accompanied this youth? MR LUKHWA Yes, I was with those youth. CHAIRPERSON Were there many of them? MR LUKHWA There were so many, I didn't manage to count them. CHAIRPERSON All right, where did they go to? MR LUKHWA They went to Maulusi's kraal. CHAIRPERSON Who? MR LUKHWA Maulusi. MR NDOU M-a-u-l-u-s-i. You say after you left Maulusi's kraal, you proceeded to where? MR LUKHWA We proceeded to Mr Tshibalo's kraal. On our arrival there with the youth ... CHAIRPERSON Mr Maulusi's kraal, what happened? MR LUKHWA The hut was burnt and he was also assaulted. CHAIRPERSON That hut was his? The hut belonged to him? MR LUKHWA Yes, the house belongs to him. It was his sleeping hut? CHAIRPERSON And you say he was assaulted? MR LUKHWA Yes, he was assaulted by stones and sticks. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR NDOU And what did you do, you yourself at Maulusi's kraal? MR LUKHWA In Maulusi's kraal, I did nothing, I was standing on the gate, I was standing near the gate. MR NDOU Together with this crowd? MR LUKHWA The group was inside, the other group was inside burning and throwing stones. MR NDOU What eventually happened to Mr Maulusi? Was he injured? MR LUKHWA He was injured and ultimately he died. MR NDOU I see. Now you say the group then proceeded to whose kraal? MR LUKHWA To Tshibalo's kraal. MR NDOU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Tshibalo? MR NDOU T-s-h-i-b-a-l-o. MR LUKHWA There we were looking for Mr Tshibalo and he was not there, and his son called Tshamaano Tshibalo, opened the hut looking for him. Unfortunately he was no longer there, he ran away. MR NDOU This child, where is he now, this child of Tshibalo that you say opened the hut? MR LUKHWA He is present here. MR NDOU Is he one of the applicants? MR LUKHWA Yes. MR NDOU Yes, and then what happened? MR LUKHWA Now that Mr Tshibalo was not there, we were unable to find him. It is then that the youth decided to burn all the huts. MR NDOU What did you yourself do at this kraal? MR LUKHWA Here in Mr Tshibalo's kraal I did nothing. MR NDOU Yes? Did anybody do anything? CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, we are talking about Mr Tshibalo's huts. On page 15 the arson counts that were committed, are Mr Tshibalo's huts included in there? MR NDOU Yes, they should be included Honourable Chairman. There on page 15, paragraph 5, 5.3, Johannes Tshibeso Tshibalo. You say you went to Tshibalo's kraal and one of your co-applicants who is the son to Mr Tshibalo, opened the huts and you didn't find him as he had run away, what happened then? MR LUKHWA From there we burnt all the huts. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tshibalo's homestead? MR LUKHWA Yes, in Mr Tshibalo's homestead. MR NDOU And what did you do personally? CHAIRPERSON How many huts were there? MR LUKHWA I didn't count them, because it was during the night, but if I can remember well, I think there were four or five. JUDGE DE JAGER Was this your father's house? ADV SIGODI No? MR LUKHWA No. JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, could I have clarity because it is difficult to follow the evidence. Was he charged as accused number, what was his number? MR NDOU Accused 10. JUDGE DE JAGER Accused 10? And reference is made to the burning of this house on page 83, count 4? This house was the house of accused 11, so it is not he, it is the other applicant? Okay, other applicant, another applicant, okay. MR NDOU May I proceed Mr Chairman? Okay, what happened then? CHAIRPERSON You were asked what you did there at the Tshibalo's homestead? MR LUKHWA In Mr Tshibalo's homestead I did nothing, I was watching, I was standing in the lapa. MR NDOU Yes? JUDGE DE JAGER While we are there, according to the evidence at the trial, did you hear Andries and Joseph testifying? INTERPRETER May you please repeat your question? JUDGE DE JAGER At the trial witnesses Andries and Joseph testified, is that correct? MR LUKHWA I didn't hear that clearly, may you please repeat? JUDGE DE JAGER At your trial, did Andries and Joseph give evidence? MR LUKHWA I don't know this Andries an Joseph. JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, I can't find their surnames, but according to the record on page 88, they testified that you and accused 11, that is the other Tshibalo, set two huts on fire? Did you set any hut on fire there? MR LUKHWA No, I didn't burn any hut, he might have said that, but I didn't burn any hut. JUDGE DE JAGER But you associated with the people burning the huts and you would have been prepared to set fire to the huts too? MR LUKHWA Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER You approved of them setting fire to the huts, is that correct? MR LUKHWA Yes, it is correct. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. MR NDOU Yes, you can proceed. What happened from there? MR LUKHWA From Mr Tshibalo's kraal, they moved, they went to a certain homestead of Mr Ramarumo. MR NDOU Yes? MR LUKHWA There at Mr Ramarumo's kraal, we entered his homestead. MR NDOU Yes, you can proceed. MR LUKHWA On entering there, I saw a child standing next to the house and then I asked, I told that child to, that person to remove the car because the people are coming to burn. Then as I was there, I saw the mother and the mother was holding an axe. The father or the old man was holding an axe and then I grabbed that axe which he was trying to defend himself, using it. I grabbed that axe and then the youth approached him and asked him to take them to show where he put his zombies. He said the zombies are in the orchard and they are eating there on a buff. As I was still behind, the youth said they asked him as to whether the zombies will not attack the youth. The youth said he answered that the zombies will attack them. I didn't know what happened but I only realised that the fire was burning, because I was from behind. CHAIRPERSON Before you carry on, when you first met the youth, what did they tell you, what were they going to do? MR LUKHWA They told me that we are moving around, burning the huts of the witches who are the obstacles in our changes. I agreed with that because I was aware of that. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR NDOU What did you yourself do at Ramarumo's kraal? MR LUKHWA In my Ramarumo's kraal, I grabbed the axe of the deceased, while he was taking it out of this hut, intending to chop us. MR NDOU Is that all? MR LUKHWA It ended that I grabbed the axe and then the youth asked him to go with them, so that he can show them where the zombies were. MR NDOU Yes, and then? MR LUKHWA From there the youth left with Mr Ramarumo, so that Mr Ramarumo can show them where the zombies are. MR NDOU Yes, we have heard that and what happened to him? CHAIRPERSON What happened to you? MR LUKHWA Mr Ramarumo was assaulted and then ultimately burnt. CHAIRPERSON Where were you when that happened? MR LUKHWA I was from behind by then. CHAIRPERSON You went with to the orchard? MR LUKHWA They didn't go to the orchard, because they were afraid that the zombies will attack them. CHAIRPERSON So, what happened then? MR LUKHWA Then the youth assaulted the deceased from a stab and I saw the fire burning and I didn't realise who lit him. JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, you are referring to the youth, who killed Mr Ramarumo? The names of the people who killed him? MR LUKHWA I didn't see the person who killed him, because there were so many and others were throwing stones to the effect that I was unable to identify the person who really killed him. JUDGE DE JAGER Who was carrying the petrol? MR LUKHWA I didn't manage to identify the person who was holding the petrol, because it was during the night. JUDGE DE JAGER At your hearing, was there evidence that accused 10, that is the other Mr Tshibalo, carried the petrol and he poured petrol on him, and that you lit the match and set him alight? MR LUKHWA The evidence is like that, but I was behind, talking to the child of the deceased, persuading him to remove the car. JUDGE DE JAGER Why should the car be removed? MR LUKHWA Because they were burning the huts. JUDGE DE JAGER Didn't they burn the car? MR LUKHWA No, they didn't burn the car. JUDGE DE JAGER You are aware that you should tell us the whole truth about what happened there in order to get amnesty? MR LUKHWA Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER And you say you did nothing? You were a bystander but you approved of what happened? Didn't you attack the deceased? MR LUKHWA In this regard I didn't attack him. I only grabbed the axe which he was intending to defend himself, using it. JUDGE DE JAGER And you didn't set him alight? MR LUKHWA No, I didn't set him alight. CHAIRPERSON This child who you were talking to about the motor vehicle, is that child present here today? MR LUKHWA I don't know because it is a person who is outside from prison, and I am in prison. CHAIRPERSON No, but wouldn't you be able to recognise that person? It's got nothing to do with who is in prison or not? MR LUKHWA If he can come close by, I can identify him. CHAIRPERSON You cannot see him in this building today, this room? MR LUKHWA Here I am unable to see him. CHAIRPERSON Okay, carry on. MR NDOU Yes, and you say the group then attacked Mr Ramarumo, what happened thereafter? CHAIRPERSON He is dead now and you say you didn't do anything as such? What happened then? MR NDOU What happened? MR LUKHWA I realised that he was dead the following day, in the morning. CHAIRPERSON What did you think was going to happen when he was burning then? MR LUKHWA I suspected that now that he was burning, he could die. CHAIRPERSON Yes? And you left? MR LUKHWA Yes, I left. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR NDOU Yes, and then what happened? MR LUKHWA Then the youth proceeded to the kraal of Mr Tharaga. MR NDOU How big was this crowd that you are talking about? How big was this crowd? How big was the crowd that you were with on that day? MR LUKHWA The crowd was so big, and I think we were about 400 to 500. MR NDOU Now, you left Jack Ramarumo's kraal, where did you proceed to? MR LUKHWA We went to Tharaga's kraal. MR NDOU Yes? MR LUKHWA In Tharaga's kraal, he was asleep. We awoke her and she was sleeping in another hut, and then she refused to wake up, and then I chopped the wooden door with the axe which I took it from Mr Jack Ramarumo. MR NDOU Yes? MR LUKHWA And then I threw it on the lapa and then the crowd approached her, starting to assault her, asking her to explain how she practised witchcraft. MR NDOU What role did you play? MR LUKHWA I participated in assaulting her with a stick and chopping the door so that she can get out of the hut. MR NDOU Yes, what happened to her? MR LUKHWA She was assaulted, she ran around the hut. CHAIRPERSON You did nothing other than chop the door? MR LUKHWA I assaulted. CHAIRPERSON Her? MR LUKHWA I assaulted her. MR NDOU Yes? And then what happened? MR LUKHWA As she got out of the hut, the people were trying to interrogate her, asking her to explain how she practised witchcraft and then she ran around the hut and then the youth followed her. Later I realised that the fire was burning, I realised her running again and then she crawled to get into the hut. CHAIRPERSON Something bothers me about your testimony. You suddenly - you aren't telling us how these people are being burnt or their homes are being burnt, but you are there, you open the door, you assault the person, and yet you cannot tell us how these people get to be burnt? MR LUKHWA I indicated that I chopped the door. As she got outside of the hut, the youth surrounded her and then I also participated in assaulting her. She went at the back of the hut and I didn't follow that side, I only see the fire burning from that side, and again I saw her coming back to the hut, crawling. JUDGE DE JAGER You see, again at the trial, the evidence of Josephine one of the children of the deceased, she agreed that you chopped the door in order to get the deceased out of the house. After the deceased had been dragged out of the hut, then she saw you had an axe in your possession. Then she saw accused 11 pouring petrol over the deceased, and saw accused 10, that was you, setting her alight? Did you set her alight? MR LUKHWA No, I think she saw me but I didn't burn the person, I chopped the door only. JUDGE DE JAGER Well, who burnt the person? MR LUKHWA I didn't identify the person who burnt the deceased, because the crowd was big and it was during the night. JUDGE DE JAGER But there is fire, you should see who was around her? Suddenly there would be light? MR LUKHWA They just threw the match, so if you pour the person with petrol, then you can throw a match from a distance and then that person will ultimately get burnt. JUDGE DE JAGER Well, who poured the petrol? MR LUKHWA I didn't see the person who poured the petrol. JUDGE DE JAGER You are now moving from one kraal to the other, who carried petrol, who bought the petrol, where did they get the petrol? Did they get it from the car which you helped them to remove? MR LUKHWA There are many things which I didn't manage to identify like where the petrol was coming from, because I didn't see or when I came back from work, they had already planned about what they were going to do, and then I just participated after they had already arranged the procedure of that day. CHAIRPERSON Look here, your evidence is not making sense, do you understand? That they may have planned and prepared for all these things, could be true, but there are 11 counts of arson involving burning houses with petrol. At the very least, there must have been a 5 litre can being carried around, not so? You need a lot of petrol to burn 11 houses or huts or whatever, not so? MR LUKHWA Yes, it is true. CHAIRPERSON Who was carrying this petrol? MR LUKHWA At the beginning I didn't see that person, but in the middle, I saw somebody, but I have not yet arrived at that incidents. I will come to it later. CHAIRPERSON Wait, wait, you were asked by Judge de Jager who carried the petrol or where the petrol came from and you told us you did not see this. You were unable to see it? MR LUKHWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now you say you did at some stage see it, later? MR LUKHWA Yes, I agree that at the beginning from Jack Ramarumo's kraal, I didn't see the person who was holding the petrol, but later I saw somebody carrying petrol. I am still coming to that incident. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR NDOU Yes? You say you saw the crowd taking the deceased around the hut and later on you saw her crawling back into the hut, what then happened? MR LUKHWA From there the crowd said "no, let us go now" and then we proceeded to a certain kraal of ... CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, what happened to the huts there? INTERPRETER Could you please repeat your question? MR NDOU You have explained to the Honourable Commission that you saw the deceased crawling back into the hut after it had been burnt by somebody that you didn't see from behind the hut. Now what happened to the huts there at the kraal? MR LUKHWA The huts were burnt. MR NDOU How did they burn? MR LUKHWA I saw one hut burning and others were made of corrugated irons. MR NDOU Who burnt the hut? MR LUKHWA Who burnt that hut, I didn't see him. MR NDOU Okay, and then what happened? MR LUKHWA While she was crawling, getting inside of the hut, then we decided to go to other kraals. MR NDOU What happened to her later on, did you hear anything? What happened to her ultimately, to Tharaga? As a result of the assault, what happened to her? MR LUKHWA She was laying in the hut, but then the following day I heard that she died. MR NDOU Yes, so you and the group proceeded to where? MR LUKHWA We proceeded to the kraal of Mr Tshirongana. MR NDOU Yes? What happened there? MR LUKHWA We were searching from Mr Tshirongana and then we were unable to see him, he wasn't by Mr Tshibalo, he was behind the hut. MR NDOU Which Tshibalo is that? MR LUKHWA It is Ebson Tshibalo who is also an applicant here. MR NDOU Yes. What happened when he saw him sitting behind the hut? MR LUKHWA He let him stand up and brought him to us. What I saw him doing is when he hit him with a spade. MR NDOU On what part of his body? MR LUKHWA I saw, I think it is here by the ribs. MR NDOU Yes, and then? MR LUKHWA From there the crowd surrounded him and I also participated in assaulting, I also assaulted him. MR NDOU How did you assault him? MR LUKHWA I assaulted him with a stick here at the shoulders. MR NDOU Did you do anything else to him? MR LUKHWA There is nothing else which I did. JUDGE DE JAGER Could you assist me, could you spell the name of the deceased, the person who they proceeded to now? MR NDOU He used the name Tshirongana which I think is a nickname, which is spelt T-s-h-i-r-o-n-g-a-n-a. His real name is Mr L-i-b-a-d-a. You say that you assaulted the deceased with a stick, is that right? MR LUKHWA Yes, it is correct. MR NDOU And what did the other people do to him? MR LUKHWA They threw stones at him and assaulted him. MR NDOU Yes? Just explain to us what happened, we want the whole story. MR LUKHWA The youth assaulted him and then we left him there and then we proceeded to other kraals, where there was a car and then we asked the petrol. It is there where petrol was asked. MR NDOU Who asked for petrol? Who asked for petrol? MR LUKHWA The person who asked the petrol, I cannot remember, but I still remember that we asked for petrol there. MR NDOU Did you get it? MR LUKHWA No, we didn't get it, but it was, the car was empty and we were unable to remove it from the car. MR NDOU Yes, and then? Yes, explain. CHAIRPERSON Now here at Mr Libada's house, you were out of petrol? You tried to get a bit of petrol from a motor vehicle and you couldn't, because the motor vehicle did not have any petrol? MR LUKHWA Yes, it was not in Mr Libada's kraal, but it was next to Mr Libada's kraal. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but at that stage the crowd had run out of petrol? MR LUKHWA I think, yes, it was no longer having petrol. CHAIRPERSON And it was looking for petrol? MR LUKHWA Yes, it was looking for petrol. CHAIRPERSON It couldn't get petrol from the first car it saw? MR LUKHWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Tell us what happened after that? MR LUKHWA On our arrival we realised that Mr (indistinct) wasn't there. We opened the huts and I am one of the persons who opened one of the huts and his child showed us the hut in which he normally slept. CHAIRPERSON We are still at the place of Mr Libada where you hit him on the shoulders by means of a stick. You did nothing further, petrol was sought and you found you couldn't find petrol at the nearest motor vehicle. We are at that stage. What happened then? MR LUKHWA Mr Libada was burnt there and then we decided to look for petrol. CHAIRPERSON You first burnt him and then decided or found out that you ran out of petrol? MR LUKHWA Yes, I think the petrol was finished there. CHAIRPERSON When he was burnt? MR LUKHWA Yes, it burnt, it was finished when we were burning there. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and then what happened? MR LUKHWA From there we proceeded to the ... CHAIRPERSON No, wait, wait, was his house burnt or his hut? MR LUKHWA Yes, the house was burnt. CHAIRPERSON How was that burnt? MR LUKHWA I just saw the house from behind burning, I didn't realise how it was burnt. CHAIRPERSON You didn't perhaps see a meteor come out of the sky? MR LUKHWA No, it is because the crowd was so big so that I was unable to see anything or a person who were throwing the light. CHAIRPERSON Let me ask you, you were the youth that day, 400 to 500 in the crowd. Were you the oldest of the lot? INTERPRETER Could you please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON Were you the oldest of the crowd? MR LUKHWA No, I wasn't the oldest. CHAIRPERSON Were there people older than you there? MR LUKHWA Yes, there were many other older people there. CHAIRPERSON But it seems that you were quite close to the forefront there as you were able to beat this deceased, Libada and you were there at the door at other places, where you could chop the door open to allow entry, is that right? MR LUKHWA Yes, but when I heard this people talking about that issue, I agreed with them and then I joined them. CHAIRPERSON I am saying you were in the forefront there, you could beat one of the deceased with a stick? Correct? You were close to the scene? Do I understand your evidence correctly? MR LUKHWA Yes, there are areas or instances in which I was in the forefront. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LUKHWA Just like ... ADV SIGODI Just like? CHAIRPERSON Just like what? MR LUKHWA Just like at Jack Ramarumo because immediately when we entered that house, I was in the forefront. CHAIRPERSON It strikes me as strange that you were in the forefront in all of these matters, in one way or the other, and yet you are unable to tell us how people got burnt. It doesn't sound right to me. I haven't discussed it with my colleagues, but it troubles me. Can you comment on that? With my colleagues, before you proceed, I want to explain to you that my colleagues and I must at the end of your evidence assess your evidence and determine whether you have complied with the Act in respect of amnesty. Do you understand? MR LUKHWA Yes, I understand. CHAIRPERSON Amongst, other than the formalities, there are two basic issues that you must satisfy us with. One, that whatever you did, was committed, amounted to a crime and was committed within the atmosphere of the political situation at the time and that there was some political advancement that was attempted to be gained by what you did. Do you understand so far? MR LUKHWA Yes, I understand. CHAIRPERSON The second important issue that you must satisfy the Committee of is that when you have applied and testified, that you have made a complete disclosure of everything relevant in the commission of the crime for which you apply for amnesty. In other words you are being given this opportunity of the benefits of amnesty, and in order to do so, you must come out clean. Do you understand? I am not suggesting that you are not. At this stage I am not suggesting that you are not doing so, but for the second time now, it has been pointed out to you that there are certain aspects of your evidence that is troublesome. It is for your own benefit that I am telling you now that those issues trouble me in assessing what you have already said. I am not trying to catch you out, I am not trying to be nasty to you. I am telling you this for your own benefit. In other words, I am trying to help you. I am going to break for lunch now, during which period I want you to really think about this, yourself, your future, and to really think of what I have just told you now, these two important requirements that must be complied with. It is not me or anyone sitting here that is making those rules, those concepts come out of the Act which was determined by the present government. Do you follow? MR LUKHWA Yes, I understand. CHAIRPERSON We will then break for lunch. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ABADFANI JOSEPH LUKHWA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Lukhwa, I hope you thought about what I had to say to you and ... MR LUKHWA Yes, it is true. CHAIRPERSON Then I am going to ask Mr Ndou to proceed. EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU (continued) Thank you Honourable Chairman. Mr Lukhwa, you remember that when we adjourned, you were explaining the events as they occurred at the kraal of Mr Libada, do you remember that? MR LUKHWA Yes, I do. MR NDOU And you had just explained to the Committee that you saw the crowd chasing the deceased right around the hut and then later on you saw the deceased crawling back into the hut? Is that right? MR LUKHWA Yes, it is true. MR NDOU And you have explained further to the Committee that you then assaulted the deceased with a stick? MR LUKHWA Yes, it is true. MR NDOU Now, I want you to explain quite explicitly to the Committee as to what transpired there, as to your role and as to what other people were doing to the deceased. MR LUKHWA What I did there at Libada's kraal, I hit him by a stick. Who used a spade is Ebson Tshibalo and the group was also attacking him. MR NDOU And then, how did he die? MR LUKHWA When we left this person still alive, we assaulted him and burnt him and left him still alive. We saw, we realised that he was dead, the following day, in the clinic. MR NDOU What transpired after you had assaulted the deceased? What did you do, you and your group? MR LUKHWA We jumped the fence and went to another village where there was a kombi standing there, standing nearby. We arrived there and we were in need of petrol and then we realised that the kombi was without petrol. We proceeded , it is then that we went to Mr Nepherwede's place. We realised that Nepherwede was not there, but we found his child who was asleep and then he woke up and then the hut was burnt. When the hut was burnt, I was there, but I didn't burn it. I didn't see the person who burnt it, I only saw it burning, because we were in a group or a crowd. From there, then we proceeded. As we proceeded we went to a village near to Fani Matusa. We were going to another kraal of Rebecca Nenzhelele. On our arrival there, the group ... JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry Mr Ndou, really we can't follow. They then went to the kraal of Fani Matusa. what happened there? Could we deal with the incident at the trial? MR LUKHWA Nothing happened there. JUDGE DE JAGER So after that, what is the next incident you are going to refer to? MR LUKHWA Now I just want to give evidence on other incidents. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, but tell us why did you go to Fani's kraal, what was wrong with him? Why did you target him or didn't you target him, why were you looking for him? MR LUKHWA There in Mr Fani's kraal, we just stood and then we were just caucusing where to go from there. As we were walking, before we arrived to Ms Nenzhelele's kraal, we were told that this lady is also a wizard, she always travels with a dead baby. On our arrival, we found her, she was asleep. The person who knocked, I didn't see that person. When that person came out of the house, I dragged her. As she was standing there, she asked us what was wrong with us and then we said "we want you to explain about your witchcraft and this thing you keep on carrying on your back, which is like a dead baby". As she was getting out into the lapa, I saw the petrol was poured, but I didn't realise who poured the petrol. ADV SIGODI Sorry, please could you, Mr Ndou, could you ask the applicant to speak slowly. MR NDOU Okay, thank you. Could you just be slow so that the Committee can take notes there. MR LUKHWA On our arrival to Rebecca Nenzhelele's kraal, we knocked, it was (indistinct), as she came out, I dragged her and then the crowd started around her assaulting her and I saw her being poured with petrol. The petrol was lit, then I saw her burning and the crowd running away. Her child called Daniel Nenzhelele was standing. JUDGE DE JAGER Are you talking about Rebecca Nenzhelele now? MR LUKHWA Yes. MR NDOU You say you put her out of her hut, is that correct? MR LUKHWA Yes. MR NDOU What did the crowd do to her? MR LUKHWA The crowd surrounded her and I realised that she was burning by then. CHAIRPERSON No, you saw petrol being poured on her, correct, that is what you have testified? MR LUKHWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Who did so, can you say? MR LUKHWA I didn't identify the person who poured the petrol, because they were surrounding her. CHAIRPERSON How were you able to see that petrol was being poured then, if you cannot say who did it? MR LUKHWA I realised it was petrol, but the person who poured it, I didn't manage to identify that person because the people were so many around her, and apart from that, it was during the night. MR NDOU Did you do anything else to her? Did you do anything else to her, you yourself? MR LUKHWA Yes, yes, there is something. I threw a stone to her and then the stone hit her, after dragging her outside the hut. MR NDOU Yes? JUDGE DE JAGER After you ... INTERPRETER Interpreters cannot hear, the speaker's microphone is not on. JUDGE DE JAGER Did she fall down after you threw the stone at her? MR LUKHWA No, she was standing, but she fell down while she was assaulted by the whole group. MR NDOU Yes? Proceed, what then happened? MR LUKHWA I went back seeing her child standing there. MR NDOU Which child is that? MR LUKHWA It is Daniel Nenzhelele. MR NDOU How old was he at the time? MR LUKHWA I am not sure of his age, he is older than me. MR NDOU Oh, so he was a grown up, okay. MR LUKHWA Yes, he was a grown up. MR NDOU Okay, you can proceed. Then what happened? MR LUKHWA Then we went to the road and we encouraged each other to proceed and then we left the lady laying there in her kraal. MR NDOU And what happened to her later? Did anything happen to her? MR LUKHWA Yes. MR NDOU What? MR LUKHWA She died. MR NDOU As a result of the attack by the group? MR LUKHWA Yes. Yes, including myself. MR NDOU What happened after that? MR LUKHWA We left and left the lady there in the kraal. MR NDOU Yes, proceed. MR LUKHWA As we were proceeding, before we reached Timothy Magaraba's homestead there was a certain youth who was a member of us who said there is a certain person up there who is called Meki Machusa or Nenzhelele, I might be confusing the surnames. He said he one day as he was travelling with a certain traditional doctor, then Kledi the witch-doctor and that lady was making a conversation in which he said the lady was requesting for three (indistinct) bones and then the lady will provide her with two zombies. The person was saying that is Solomon Thomu. It is then that the group decided to go to that lady's place, it is then that we went to the homestead of Meki. On our arrival, then we greeted them in our Venda way and I entered the lapa and Meki was not there. As we were about to leave, somebody one of us, said "here is the child, he is saying that she is around". As the group went back, the lady was from a wardrobe and then the crowd chased her as she was running to another homestead. I was present as we were chasing her, but when we entered the house, I found her already laying and burning and I didn't recognise who burnt her and assaulted her, because on my arrival she was already burning. It is then that we left her there and then we proceeded. We went to the cave. MR NDOU All right, what role did you yourself play at Meki's kraal? MR LUKHWA In Meki's homestead, I entered the homestead and we were sitting there, she was not there, then we decided to leave. On our way, we came back again. There is nothing which I personally did to Ms Meki. When it was said that she was in the wardrobe, she immediately ran away and there was already a crowd in front of me, on my arrival she was already burning next to the house of a certain homestead which was close by. CHAIRPERSON What about Meki's homestead itself? Was that burnt? MR LUKHWA Meki's homestead was not burnt. It was a house made of corrugated iron. MR NDOU Okay, carry on. You can proceed. Yes, proceed? MR LUKHWA We left her burning there and then we proceeded to Rakhalaru's cave. On our arrival there, while I was still at the gate, others were already inside. He was sleeping there in the lapa together with his wife. It is then that others said that we are requesting for your car, so that you can borrow us your car, or you drive it for us and accompany us to Muswodi, we want to follow a certain Fanyisani Ndou. MR NDOU Why were you to follow this Fanyisani Ndou? MR LUKHWA It is because he was staying at Folovhodwe, and then he ran away to Muswodi to his sister. MR NDOU Why did people go to Rakhalaru's residence? MR LUKHWA We went there looking for a car to transport us to Muswodi, because Muswodi is far away from Folovhodwe. MR NDOU So you wanted Rakhalaru to transport you to the next village of Muswodi, is that what you are saying? MR LUKHWA Yes. MR NDOU Yes, and then what happened at Rakhalaru's? MR LUKHWA After awaking Mr Rakhalaru, a certain Timo Sarama said because I am a driver, I will drive another car and then the owner of the cafe will drive the other truck, because we were so many. It wasn't possible for us to use one truck. Mr Rakhalaru didn't refuse and Timo didn't refuse and then we boarded them and then they were so full that others were left behind. On our arrival at Muswodi, next to a certain cage of Mr (indistinct) or rather a bottle store,the struck was stopped by Tshibalo and ordered us to stop and said people mustn't go there, all of them. Then the trucks left and then we proceeded to the village on foot. By then I didn't know where his sister was staying. It is Tshibalo who was knowing that place. On arriving there, a certain group was still behind, before we can all enter the homestead, Tshibalo then entered the homestead and then I followed him. We found her asleep. JUDGE DE JAGER Just help me. I cannot follow ... INTERPRETER The Interpreters cannot hear. JUDGE DE JAGER Could you perhaps refer to the counts that he has been convicted of, then at least we can follow, or to page 5. What was the page with the names ... INTERPRETER The Interpreters cannot hear. JUDGE DE JAGER Could you kindly refer to say page 15, paragraph 5 and tell us we are now dealing with the incident of so and so. MR NDOU Okay. JUDGE DE JAGER So that we can know with what we are dealing with, at a time. Who was the person you wanted to assault at the next venue? MR NDOU Did you hear the question? Who did you want to assault at this next venue where you were proceeding by truck, with the other people? MR LUKHWA Yes. MR NDOU Who? MR LUKHWA Fanyisani. MR NDOU Fanyisani who? MR LUKHWA Fanyisani Ndou. JUDGE DE JAGER Is it referred to in paragraph 5 on page 15, 4.7? MR NDOU Yes, or 5.10? JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, paragraph 4 on page 14, I see. Okay, thank you. MR NDOU Now you have arrived at Muswodi, the group was going to follow Fanyisani Ndou who had run away from Folovhodwe and there you alighted from the truck ... INTERPRETER The Interpreters cannot hear. MR NDOU Okay, you have arrived at Muswodi by truck, there you alight from the trucks and you are walking towards the kraal where Fanyisani was allegedly hiding in it. What happened when you arrived there? MR LUKHWA We entered the homestead and Fanyisani was laying there in the lapa with his sister. MR NDOU Was it a sister or brother, Fanyisani was a female? With whom was she outside there? I think it was the Interpreter's problem. MR LUKHWA She was sleeping with her brother. MR NDOU And who was this brother of hers? MR LUKHWA It is Makwivhile, the brother. MR NDOU And that is the person referred to on paragraph 4 on page 14, 4.8, that Makwivhile Andries Budelindo, is that right? MR LUKHWA Yes. MR NDOU Yes, and then what happened as she lay there? MR LUKHWA Tshibalo said Mr Fanyisani we followed you here, tell us about my clothes, I want to know where my clothes are. MR NDOU Who said that? MR LUKHWA Ebson Tshibalo. MR NDOU Your co-applicant? MR LUKHWA Yes. MR NDOU What did he want from her? MR LUKHWA His clothes. MR NDOU What happened to the clothes? MR LUKHWA (Indistinct) said the clothes are in the pool of blood, somewhere there between the reeds in the Nyanda River. MR NDOU What happened, what kind of clothes were these that your co-applicant was looking for? MR LUKHWA I didn't know about what kind of clothes they were, but I simply heard him saying that he is in need of clothes that are in the pool of blood, which is somewhere in between the reeds next to the river. MR NDOU Yes, and then? MR LUKHWA And then he called, he asked him to take, to bring back the clothes and then he started to assault him and I also assaulted him heavily with a stick. MR NDOU Who did you assault, because there was a lady, Fanyisani was there with her brother? Just explain very clearly as to what was happening there. Tell us if you were assaulting Fanyisani, tell us exactly what you did. If you were assaulting the man, tell us what you did. MR LUKHWA We were assaulting the lady called Fanyisani. As we were assaulting her, the brother to the lady said "no, don't assault me alone, I don't practice witchcraft alone, I practice it with Mr Birima. Let me go and show you this so-called Birima". Then the crowd said "let's go and see that person together with Ms Fanyisani." I remained behind, hitting this Ms Fanyisani. Then I left her laying in a certain homestead, but I don't know the name of that place or that kraal. MR NDOU Where were you proceeding to now? MR LUKHWA We were proceeding to Mr Birima's friend, he was going to show us that place of Mr Birima. MR NDOU Did you know Mr Birima? MR LUKHWA No, by then he was not known to me. CHAIRPERSON You went there, this lady was asked about certain clothes. MR LUKHWA Yes, it is true, you can continue. CHAIRPERSON Was she beaten because of this clothes? MR LUKHWA Yes, and witchcraft. CHAIRPERSON What does the witchcraft and the clothes have to do with each other? MR LUKHWA They relate to each other because they took them in a witchcraft way, they were not simply stolen. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR NDOU Okay, and then? There you are, you are proceeding now to Birima's kraal. You have indicated to the Committee that you didn't know Birima at that time. INTERPRETER The Interpreters cannot hear, the speaker's microphone is not on. MR NDOU You indicated that you were then being taken to Birima's kraal, who is the person mentioned under paragraph 4.9 and I asked you a question as to whether at that stage, you knew Birima or not? Did you know Mr Birima? MR LUKHWA No, by then he was not known to me. MR NDOU Why were you proceeding to his kraal? MR LUKHWA We were proceeding to his kraal because we were told that he was also practising witchcraft. MR NDOU What did you want to do to Birima? MR LUKHWA He was going to point to us that he was practising witchcraft with whoever. MR NDOU So that what happens? MR LUKHWA On our arrival there, as the people were, other people were in front and I was still behind with Ms Fanyisani. MR NDOU Yes, explain what happened. MR LUKHWA On my arrival there in Mr Birima's homestead, the house was tightened and who tightened it was Tshibalo. I was standing near the fence and I heard Ebson Tshibalo talking to the wife of Mr Birima carrying a lamp, asking her to give them the petrol, so that we can burn this hut because the people have entered this hut. MR NDOU Who were the people who had entered the hut? MR LUKHWA It is Mr Birima and Makwivhile and they, both of them entered the house and they didn't come out. MR NDOU Yes, and then? MR LUKHWA It is then that Ebson made sure that the door is tightened by a wire. After tightening the door, the house was burning. I was standing from behind, I saw Birima getting, coming out, holding a spear and then he passed next to me. As he was attempting to stab me, I fell down. As I fell down, Tshibalo arrived and then grabbed him and took the spear and then he flicked the spear and then he stabbed him by the spear, and then I don't know, where, at which part of the body exactly he stabbed. As we were running a car was coming, lighting the lights and then we all dispersed. MR NDOU Yes, but what did you do at Birima's kraal? You yourself, what active role did you play there? MR LUKHWA In Birima's place, there is nothing so important because I was not inside, I was from behind. MR NDOU Did you agree with what the other people were doing? MR LUKHWA Yes. MR NDOU And then you say after the arrival of this motor vehicle, you ran away? What happened? MR LUKHWA Then we ran away because we were afraid that we would be seen by the Police. MR NDOU And what happened to Mr Makwivhile who was in the hut which had been tightened with a wire by your co-applicant, Tshibalo? MR LUKHWA A lightning happened and then the hut gets opened. MR NDOU What happened to Makwivhile? MR LUKHWA He came out and then he ran away. MR NDOU Yes, but you know that later on, he was found dead. How did it come that he died? MR LUKHWA He was found dead because he was assaulted and he was also burnt by fire, but the people who burnt him, I didn't identify him because I was by then running. MR NDOU You don't know how he came about to be injured which caused his death, is that what you are saying? MR LUKHWA He died from assault. MR NDOU By who? MR LUKHWA He was assaulted by the crowd. MR NDOU How? MR LUKHWA They were throwing stones on top of the hut and even the door, they were also stoning the door. MR NDOU I see. JUDGE DE JAGER Did the death of Mr Birima have to do with politics? MR LUKHWA Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER What, was he involved in politics, what did he do, why should he be killed? What was his role in politics? MR LUKHWA It is the time when we, the youth, were looking for changes, he was against the changes. He used to give the leaders who were in government, he used to give the leaders who were in government to prevent these changes whenever we speak anything, they were unable, or they were not prepared to listen to us. JUDGE DE JAGER How do you know that, you didn't even know Mr Birima at all? MR LUKHWA I learnt that because he was appointed by his friend, who personally ag reed or concurred that he practised this witchcraft things. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, but all the people practising witchcraft weren't involved in politics, they are even practising witchcraft today? MR LUKHWA They were not interfering with politics, but we were in need of changes, but they were against our changes, because they used to be people who used to give medicines. We youth, were in need of changes and they were against those changes, just like now that we are now independent. It is because of the changes we were looking for. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, but weren't they ordinary people practising witchcraft like we've got people practising witchcraft today and they are not involved in politics at all? Why did you believe then to be involved in politics? MR LUKHWA It is because we by then, as we were looking for changes, they were against the changes. They used to collaborate with the leaders of the past government of apartheid. We were in need of changes and that is why we went to those elderly people, because these people who practise witchcraft used to take medicine to the leaders. The leaders were suppressing us and we were unable to go to the leaders because they were well armed with guns, shamboks and all sorts of things. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, have you got any more questions? MR NDOU I think that is all Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MUSHASHA Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Lukhwa, in your evidence you said ... CHAIRPERSON Mr Mushasha, you can just put your case to the witness. MR MUSHASHA Pardon? I should not put questions? CHAIRPERSON I say you can just put your case to him. MR MUSHASHA Thank you. Mr Lukhwa, do you know the person who is on my right, sitting next to me? MR LUKHWA Yes, I know that person. MR MUSHASHA Who is he? MR LUKHWA It is Isaac Ramarumo. MR MUSHASHA On the date of this incident, did you see him? MR LUKHWA Yes, I saw him. MR MUSHASHA Did he play any role during the killings? Did you talk to him? MR LUKHWA No. I talked to him on the day of the incident at his home. MR MUSHASHA Is he not the person whom you were asked about by the members of the panel, of this Committee, when you were giving evidence to identify? MR LUKHWA Yes, it is the person, but during that time I was unable to recognise him because it is long that I have left him. By then he was lean, but now I see that he has gained weight. MR MUSHASHA He and the other victims of this incident, would say that they do not agree that you are giving a full disclosure of the incident and of your participation in the killings of the relatives. MR LUKHWA I agree that they cannot agree, but what I am saying, I am relating how I have seen the incident happening. I am telling the honest truth, so that I will be able to ask for forgiveness for what I have done to them. MR MUSHASHA They will tell the Committee that you in fact participated in the killing, rather than merely as you are putting it, associating yourself with the killings? MR LUKHWA What I am saying is the truth of how I participated in this incidents. I am not the person who started with this thing from the beginning, I am the person who joined in the middle. MR MUSHASHA They will say that as reflected in the judgement on page 95, you - page 95 paragraph 2 - you and accused 11, your co-applicant, pushed the door of the deceased Andries into the hut where Birima was said to be and tied the door from the outside with a piece of wire, and you in particular then poured paraffin on the hut and set it alight. MR LUKHWA That is not true. MR MUSHASHA So you are suggesting that the Judge was wrong in this finding? CHAIRPERSON He is entitled to say so, he has given an answer to that. MR LUKHWA In all fairness, the fact that I tied the door, using the wire and assisted in pouring paraffin, is not true. I have the whole truth on that. MR MUSHASHA The relatives of the deceased, that is the victims, would further say as reflected on page 9 of this record, you chopped the door of Meki's hut. MR LUKHWA That is not true. MR MUSHASHA They will further say that as reflected on page 88 of this judgement, bound in this record, that you and accused 11 were the people who demanded petrol which was no longer available and when the person from whom you demanded petrol, could not produce petrol, you threatened after which you threw stones? JUDGE DE JAGER Can you perhaps make it clearer, who was the person whom they asked petrol from? MR MUSHASHA Mr Chairperson, I was trying to get a link, this is on page 88 of the record as bound. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, but you've got instructions that they demanded petrol from Mr X, and he couldn't supply it. Who was this Mr X, would he give evidence, would he come and tell us that they demanded petrol from him? MR MUSHASHA Mr Chairperson, I was simply quoting from the judgement, it is not specifically mentioned from whom they demanded petrol. Mr Lukhwa, again, the victims would ... JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, I interrupted you now. Put that question to him and let's get an answer, he demanded petrol and when he couldn't supply it, what did he do? MR MUSHASHA He threatened him? JUDGE DE JAGER Yes. What is your answer on that? MR LUKHWA I threatened no one. MR MUSHASHA The evidence from the victims would be that as reflected on page 87 of the judgement, bound in this record, at - which kraal was this - may I have the Committee's indulgence? JUDGE DE JAGER Libada's kraal? MR MUSHASHA Libada's kraal, that is the last paragraph of this page, but one, last paragraph but one. Let me just quote it to him for convenience sake. "Maria's evidence is materially corroborated by witness Joseph, except in so far as he testified that accused 10 set both huts alight and he further said that it was accused 10 who set the deceased alight after accused 11 poured petrol over him." So in terms of this passage, you are the person who set the huts alight, what do you say to that? MR LUKHWA Whose huts? MR MUSHASHA That was at Libada's kraal? MR LUKHWA That is not true. The people who gave evidence there, were lying, that is not true. MR MUSHASHA You say the whole objective was to kill these people who were alleged to be wizards, correct? MR LUKHWA Yes, that is correct. MR MUSHASHA I want to take you to Ramarumo's kraal. You have already conceded that you are the one who disarmed Ramarumo of the weapon, is that correct? MR LUKHWA Yes, that is correct. MR MUSHASHA That was the axe? MR LUKHWA Yes, that was an axe. MR MUSHASHA And your intention was to have him killed, is that correct? MR LUKHWA My aim was that I realised that he was going to chop me, using that, then I grabbed it. MR MUSHASHA yes, then if you intended killing him, why not chop him and kill him thereby? MR LUKHWA May you please repeat the question? MR MUSHASHA If the intention was to have him killed, now you were armed with his axe, why didn't you chop him to death there with? MR LUKHWA He was immediately taken away by the crowd and then the crowd left with him. MR MUSHASHA I am saying this against the, in the light of the judgement, the evidence which is found in the judgement on page 84, that you in fact struck the deceased there with, with this axe? MR LUKHWA That is not true, the deceased was assaulted on the steps outside the homestead. MR MUSHASHA You have already shown in your evidence that the whole objective was to eliminate witches who had something to do with the political climate during that period. MR LUKHWA That is true. MR MUSHASHA Yes, in your evidence you said you came across this mob while you were on your way from work and when you came across this mob, I believe you did not know what the mob was up to, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON No Mr Mushasha, they told him and he agreed with that? They told him what they were up to and he agreed with it and he accompanied them. MR MUSHASHA May it please the Chairperson. From the position of the victims, you participated in the killings not for any political gain, but for your personal gain? What do you say to that? MR LUKHWA That is not true. MR MUSHASHA The victims' position would be that as reflected on page 96 of the judgement, that was your actual role in the killings of the deceased. I wish to quote this passage of the judgement, it is paragraph 3 of the judgement which reads as follows, I quote "... now from the above summary of the evidence, it must be in our minds be clear that there is overwhelming evidence shown that accused 11 throughout acted as instigator and leader and that he was all along actively assisted and associated by accused 10. Not only did they collect and use the members of the mob to assist them in executing their evil plan to murder nine people and burn 11 kraals, but in most instances, they themselves were responsible for the execution of the crimes itself." What is your comment to this finding by the Judge? INTERPRETER He is asking that you repeat. MR MUSHASHA The whole passage? MR LUKHWA Yes, because I didn't understand all that you were saying. MR MUSHASHA The gist of the matter is that according to this passage which I have just read out, that you and accused 11 used this mob in the execution of your evil plans to murder nine people and burn 11 kraals. You were responsible for the execution of the crimes itself, the two of you? MR LUKHWA That is not true. I was even not aware of what was happening. I just met this people from work, I was not aware. I used to work (indistinct) at my work place, I used to come back on Friday, but that day I came back on Saturday, then I met those people and then they blocked me and told me that "today we are doing this". I was not aware when I knocked off from work. MR MUSHASHA The attitude of the victims is that you are trying to minimise the role which you played in the execution of this plan, by saying that the mob did this, instead of involving yourself by saying we did this throughout your testimony? MR LUKHWA From what I am saying, I am telling the honest truth which I know, giving this before the Committee because it is long that I have been sentenced, but I am telling the evidence as it is. I even don't know where it started, I was only blocked on my way. MR MUSHASHA The attitude of the deceased's relatives is that you have done that which is very evil and you would not be acceptable in that community any longer as a result of what you did. MR LUKHWA What I did, of course even myself, I see that as very evil. That is why I have decided to come before this Committee so that I can ask for amnesty for all the wrongs I have done in the past, so that I can do new things now, and I am coming to ask for forgiveness, even in all the victims and others. MR MUSHASHA Their attitude is that they, some of them were present when these crimes were perpetrated, they actually saw you participating actively, than what you pretend to be the case before the panel, and in the light of that, their view is that you are not making a full disclosure of what actually happened? MR LUKHWA As far as I am concerned, as I am telling the honest truth, I am relating what I had done. There is nothing to hide now, I am already sentenced. I am telling the truth, I am hiding nothing, there is nothing to fear for, now. MR MUSHASHA Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MUSHASHA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson. These persons, the group which you joined, did they belong to any political organisation? MR LUKHWA The group I joined was the supporters of the ANC and I was a supporter of the ANC. MR MAPOMA I am talking about the group. MR LUKHWA Yes. Yes, because it was also in need of changes. ADV SIGODI How do you know that? How do you know that this group which you joined, was a group which was supporting the ANC? MR LUKHWA I know this because even before these incidents, they used to say that they are supporters of the ANC, they are in need of the government to change, they were no longer interested in the previous government. ADV SIGODI Who was the leader of this group? Was there a leader? MR LUKHWA The leader, I didn't manage to see the leader, there were so many, to such an extent that I didn't realise who was leading the group. They were all talking at the same time and then we all agreed, including yourself. ADV SIGODI But the question is how did you know that the group which you joined, was a group which supported the ANC? It could have been a group of people who wanted to go and kill witches, how did you know that that particular group was a group which supported the ANC? MR LUKHWA I know that they were there, because even before the incident, they used to support the ANC and standing for the ANC all the time. Even, I can mention of two people that I know, that were the supporters of the ANC. MR MAPOMA Thank you, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, do you have any questions? MR NDOU No, none, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU JUDGE DE JAGER Did this group have a name, what did they call themselves? MR LUKHWA The name of the group, I don't know the name of the group, but I was only aware that we were the supporters of the ANC, because we were in need of changes. JUDGE DE JAGER At the previous meetings, who was the leader of the group, who was the Chairman when you had meetings? MR LUKHWA Yes, I was the Chairperson. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you call the people together to come and have a meeting? MR LUKHWA Sometimes we used to have meetings, but that day I was not there, but in the past I used to call them, but on that day, I was not there, I was at work. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, but on the other days you acted as a leader, you called them together, is that right? MR LUKHWA Yes, that is right. JUDGE DE JAGER At those meetings, what did you decide, what did you tell them, you want them to take a decision on what? MR LUKHWA Sometimes we decided that seeing that our chief once called us and said that he had (indistinct) people who are practising witchcraft, we are hearing zombies during the - and then the chief asked us to collect R2-00 so that we can find out the people who were having these zombies. But later we decided not to take away those zombies. We just want the rain to rain and then I informed the youth that there are people who are obstacle here before us. JUDGE DE JAGER Now, what did the chief tell you, you should - did the chief tell you you should kill the witches or what did he tell you, what should you do? MR LUKHWA The chief didn't tell us that we should kill the witches, he said "no, we must no longer remove the zombies. We must no longer call the person who must come, we must no longer allow that witch-doctor to come and assist us in removing these zombies." JUDGE DE JAGER Was the chief in favour of the witch-doctors or was he against the witch-doctors? MR LUKHWA I think he was in favour of the witches because he once said that he wants the zombies to be removed, but not long, within a week, he said "no, I no longer want the zombies to be removed". He said "no, let us now ensure that we make it to rain or the rain to rain." JUDGE DE JAGER So it was about the rain? MR LUKHWA It was now a matter of rain, instead of a zombie issue. JUDGE DE JAGER So there was no politics concerned as far as... MR LUKHWA The politics was there. JUDGE DE JAGER Well the chief talked about the rain and the zombies and he didn't talk about any politics? MR LUKHWA The chief was hiding the issue of removing the zombies. I suspect that the witches would have gone to him and maybe the chief cheated the witches not to remove the zombies and then it turned into the rain to rain instead of dealing with the zombies. MR NDOU I now call the second applicant, Tshibalo. WITNESS EXCUSED