amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-08 THOHOYANDOU 1 TSHAMAANO EBSON TSHIBALO AM3277/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54162&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200508th.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Tshibalo, what language would you like to speak? MR TSHIBALO Venda. TSHAMAANO EBSON TSHIBALO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU Thank you Honourable Chairman, Honourable Members. Mr Tshibalo, you are the applicant in this matter. When were you born? MR TSHIBALO On the 25th of April 1958. MR NDOU Yes, you have heard evidence being led by your co-applicant, Mr Lukhwa, is that right? MR TSHIBALO Yes, that is true. MR NDOU And you have heard that you are applying for amnesty in respect of the nine murders which were committed on victims at Folovhodwe and Muswodi respectively, as well as 11 charges of arson committed at various kraals? MR TSHIBALO Yes, that is true. MR NDOU Now, I want you to explain explicitly to this Court, without being in a hurry, explaining as to what you did at each particular kraal, starting from Mr Maulusi's kraal where the group first entered. Okay, let me put it this way to you, how did it come about that you joined this group? MR TSHIBALO I still remember very well that it was on the 10th of March 1990, I was coming back from work and when I alighted next to Mr Rakhalaru's cave, I met a group there, sitting in front the cave of Mr Rakhalaru. MR NDOU Did you know the people who were gathered there? MR TSHIBALO Yes, the people who were gathering there, I know some of them even by names. MR NDOU Yes, and then? MR TSHIBALO On my arrival there, who was speaking as the speaker, as the guest speaker was Owen Simeli. MR NDOU Was he one of your co-accused in your trial in the High Court? MR TSHIBALO Yes. MR NDOU Yes, and you say he was addressing the group there. Approximately how many people would you say had gathered there that day? MR TSHIBALO The people who had gathered were approximately 500. MR NDOU Yes, and you arrived there, you found Owen Simeli addressing the crowd. What then happened? MR TSHIBALO On my arrival there, Owen talked to me and as I was approaching and said "you, Mr Tshamaano, today as you are seeing us here, we are talking about a meeting regarding your father. Your father is said to be practising witchcraft, he is preventing us from what we want to do." MR NDOU Did they explain to you as to how your father interferes with whatever they wanted to do? MR TSHIBALO He said he is having zombies, and he said he is also practising witchcraft. CHAIRPERSON What was wrong with that? MR TSHIBALO I personally agreed that we must go to my father to find out how he was doing all those things. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but what did they find wrong with practising witchcraft? Please don't take it as if I am supportive of witchcraft, I am just asking how that group saw witchcraft being wrong. Why did they have a problem with witchcraft? MR TSHIBALO My understanding, they were having a problem because these witches were collaborating with the leaders of the previous, former government, because they were close to those leaders and then they assisted them by those medicines. By that time when they were talking, I have already heard about organisations saying that people are being killed, the ritual murder and witchcraft and to be turned into zombies. MR NDOU Thank you Honourable Chairman. Now, did people say to you "look, we have also discovered your father practised witchcraft" and you said to them "okay, let's proceed to my home so that we can find out from my father as to how he goes about practising witchcraft". What happened then? MR TSHIBALO We proceeded from there and we were singing the (indistinct) songs, or the freedom songs, and we went to where I stay with my father. On our way ... JUDGE DE JAGER Okay, let's for a moment, you stayed with your father? MR TSHIBALO I was having my other place on top or close by my father's place. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you grow up in your father's kraal? MR TSHIBALO Yes, yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Was your father a witch-doctor? MR TSHIBALO No, he wasn't a witch-doctor. CHAIRPERSON Did he practice witchcraft? INTERPRETER The Interpreters didn't hear that. CHAIRPERSON Did he practice witchcraft? INTERPRETER Can you please repeat? CHAIRPERSON Did he practice witchcraft, the father? MR TSHIBALO I agree because by the way the people were talking, I thought maybe he might be doing that, but I wasn't are of that. MR NDOU You arrived at your kraal, what happened, at your father's kraal? MR TSHIBALO On our arrival, I entered the hut because I know that he usually sleeps there. Then on entering, there was nobody. I decided to search even under the bed and even the wardrobe. There was nobody. I went out, as I went out, the crowd or the group were also howling at me and I realised that my life will be in danger. Then I decided to burn the hut of my father. CHAIRPERSON Just repeat that. I just want to hear that properly. Why did you burn your father's hut? MR TSHIBALO Seeing that people were howling at me, I took the box of matches and the hut in which my father was staying. CHAIRPERSON So you didn't do it willingly, you did it because you reacted to the people who were shouting at you? MR TSHIBALO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Then you went on with this crowd, after that, to other people's homes? Correct? MR TSHIBALO Yes, it is correct. CHAIRPERSON Why did you participate in those events? MR TSHIBALO I started at Mr Ramarumo's homestead, I participated ... CHAIRPERSON I am talking about all the other places, events you participated in. Why did you go there then? Did you do so willingly or did you feel compelled to go there because of the crowd? MR TSHIBALO By then I accepted what was happening during that time. CHAIRPERSON So? MR TSHIBALO From my homestead, we went to Mr Ramarumo's homestead. CHAIRPERSON Listen to me, you are not answering my question. We will come back to each of these events if necessary. You according to your written application, participated in all these other events where people died and their homes were burnt, correct? MR TSHIBALO Yes, I participated in all these other incidents. CHAIRPERSON Now, you have testified now in burning your father's house you had no intention of burning your father's house yourself, you reacted to the shouting of the people, correct? MR TSHIBALO Yes, I burnt because people we shouting at me. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Did you feel scared, if you didn't do it something would happen to you or what? MR TSHIBALO Yes, I just felt that something could happen. I could be stoned and I might be killed if I didn't do anything. CHAIRPERSON Is that the reason you burnt your father's house? MR TSHIBALO Yes, so that he must also see that I am also a member of that group. CHAIRPERSON Yes, besides that, but you would not have done that had the people not shouted at you, as I understand or am I understanding your evidence incorrectly? MR TSHIBALO I am not clear, may you please repeat? CHAIRPERSON Why did you burn your father's hut then? MR TSHIBALO It is because we did not find him so that we can hear from him as to whether he is practising all these things he is allegedly committing. CHAIRPERSON Why did you burn your father's hut? MR TSHIBALO It is because my father was not around or available. CHAIRPERSON So what? Must a man be at his home all the time otherwise his hut is going to be burnt? MR TSHIBALO I was compelled to do so, because he wasn't available. CHAIRPERSON What compelled you to do so? MR TSHIBALO It is my conscience. CHAIRPERSON What conscience? MR TSHIBALO I was feeling, having the desire of burn. CHAIRPERSON Look here, don't talk nonsense to us now. Do you understand? We have a lot of other people's cases to hear here. Do you understand? MR TSHIBALO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now you say the only reason you burnt your father's house was because you had a sudden desire to do so? MR TSHIBALO Yes, I was compelled to burn it. CHAIRPERSON What compelled you to burn it? MR TSHIBALO It is because he was alleged to be practising witchcraft. CHAIRPERSON And then, so what now? What compelled you to burn his house? Why couldn't you wait then to see if these allegations were true, give the man a chance to explain himself or at least deny the allegations. Why not wait for him to come? MR TSHIBALO The group lost hope that I might have informed my father to run away. CHAIRPERSON So? MR TSHIBALO That is why I took a decision of burning the hut. CHAIRPERSON So you didn't burn the hut because you thought your father was a witch or wizard? Correct? MR TSHIBALO Yes, it is true. CHAIRPERSON And you didn't burn it because you had any political problem with your father? Correct? MR TSHIBALO I was having a problem with him, I thought he was obstructing the youth from achieving the changes they were in need of. CHAIRPERSON How did he do that, what made you think he was doing that? MR TSHIBALO I thought he was killing people, making them zombies so that he can make medicine so that they can prosper or still be in power. CHAIRPERSON So why burn his house then? MR TSHIBALO We thought after burning that house, he will leave the place and go to another village. CHAIRPERSON You know, on this one point as to why you burnt your father's hut, you have given us about four reasons, different reasons, different versions. Tell us now what is the position. In a short space of time, you have given us four reasons. What is the actual position now? MR TSHIBALO The one thing that I can mention is that he is a witch, he practices witchcraft. CHAIRPERSON You just told us five minutes ago that that was not so? He didn't practice witchcraft, he was not a witch. That is what you have told us. INTERPRETER He was referring to the witch-doctor. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Ndou, carry on. MR NDOU Thank you Honourable Chairman. Let me find out from you, was it on that particular day your first time to hear that your father practises witchcraft? MR TSHIBALO I have already heard about that before as people were talking. MR NDOU Did you believe it? MR TSHIBALO By then I believed, because if you hear many people talking of the same incidents, then one should of course believe that it is true. CHAIRPERSON That is utter nonsense. Why didn't you go and confront your father about the allegations or did you not check if he really is indulging in this witchcraft activities, you had the opportunity, it was your father? MR TSHIBALO Yes, I used to investigate that, but my father was always against me. CHAIRPERSON Did you confront him? Did you ask him "look the people are saying that you are a witch"? MR TSHIBALO Yes, I asked him about this in various incidents, he was always against, he said I was against him and then he looked for me for another homestead so that I can go away from his homestead. CHAIRPERSON So he was indulging in witchcraft? MR TSHIBALO Yes, he was. ADV SIGODI What did he do? What was he doing? What was he doing that convinced you that your father was indulging in witchcraft? What did you see him doing? MR TSHIBALO You mean at home? ADV SIGODI Yes? MR TSHIBALO No, I never witnessed that but I still remember on a Saturday when I was asleep, I saw him getting outside my hut without clothes on. It is something which makes me to believe that he is practising witchcraft. ADV SIGODI Tell me, from your affidavit here, you made an affidavit which is on pages 40, 41, 42, 43, 44 up to page 51. Now in the list of the offences that you have applied for amnesty for, I notice that you have not applied for the incident at your father's home. Is that so? Only the arson, oh no sorry, it is my mistake. I accept that it is my mistake. MR NDOU You have indicated that after you had found that your father was not there ... INTERPRETER The Interpreters cannot hear, the microphone is not on. MR NDOU You have indicated that after you had realised that your father was not there, and that his hut was standing empty, you then decided to burn it and what happened after that? MR TSHIBALO After burning the hut, we went out of my family's homestead, by the gate, and then we went to - from there we went to a house which is next door to that of Mr Ramarumo. MR NDOU Whose kraal was that? MR TSHIBALO It is the kraal of Mr Jack Ramarumo. CHAIRPERSON Did you participate in that event where he was killed and where his house was burnt? MR TSHIBALO Yes, I participated there regarding Mr Ramarumo. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR TSHIBALO Because the group in which I was in, including myself, we were going to him regarding interrogating him regarding this witchcraft issue and the zombies. On my arrival there, I saw the accused called Lukhwa being in, dragging Mr Jack Ramarumo. He was coming with him towards the gate. As they just passed the gate, we started to interrogate him as to, we are saying as a group he is practising witchcraft and he is having zombies and then we asked him to show us where those zombies are. From then the old man agreed and then he led us, going to the direction of the orchards, because it is where he indicated that the zombies are found, there in the orchards. As we were going there, there was a question which was put to him as to whether the zombies doesn't attack people or they won't, the zombies won't fight us. He said "yes, they would attack, possibly they can beat people" and then we asked him how can we do it and then he said "no, you won't stand for that, those zombies are very tough and I see you are boys". It is then when we were approaching the gate next to his orchard. There we started to stone him until he fell down. As we realised that he fell down, we left thinking that we might have killed him. MR NDOU Yes, but you have heard evidence that he was also poured with petrol and set alight, did you see that happen? MR TSHIBALO I didn't see petrol, because I was one of the people who stoned him until he fell down. But petrol, I didn't see as to whether ... MR NDOU But did you have petrol in your possession? Did you have petrol in your possession? MR TSHIBALO No, I didn't see petrol at that time. CHAIRPERSON Did you strike him when you threw the stones? MR TSHIBALO What I managed to see is stones only, which I was also using. If the other thing struck him, I didn't see. CHAIRPERSON The stones you threw, did it strike him? MR TSHIBALO Yes. CHAIRPERSON How far were you from him when you threw those stones? MR TSHIBALO We were just close to each other. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but how close? Let's assume where you are sitting now is where you threw the stone, how far would he have been from you? MR TSHIBALO Like where you are now. CHAIRPERSON Five metres? Are we in agreement with that? MR NDOU Yes, we are in agreement. CHAIRPERSON Did you ever see Mr Ramarumo burning at any stage? INTERPRETER Could you please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON Did you ever see Mr Ramarumo burning after he was set alight? MR TSHIBALO After striking him with the stones, as he was laying down, I didn't see any other thing and then I took it for granted that the stone that I threw, have struck him to such an extent that he was dead. But that he was burning, I didn't realise that. CHAIRPERSON Did you ever see him burning? MR TSHIBALO No. I cannot remember that. CHAIRPERSON So you left, when you left Mr Ramarumo's house, homestead, did you leave with the rest of the crowd? MR TSHIBALO There were certain groups, other were in the front, others at the back and others were in the middle, people were so many. CHAIRPERSON Did you leave his homestead together with the others? INTERPRETER He is asking for the question to be asked again. CHAIRPERSON When you left that homestead of Ramarumo, did you leave it alone or were you with the rest of the groups, all the people who went there, did they leave together with you? MR TSHIBALO I left with the only group which left with me. CHAIRPERSON So there was nobody left by the homestead when you left? MR TSHIBALO Lukhwa was behind as we were going with Mr Ramarumo, I was left behind. CHAIRPERSON You were left behind? MR TSHIBALO It was Joseph Lukhwa that was left behind. CHAIRPERSON Yes, the group then went to Tharaga's homestead, correct, according to your written application? MR TSHIBALO Are you referring to the homestead of Mr Maraga? CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) INTERPRETER The Interpreters cannot hear. CHAIRPERSON From Mr Ramarumo's homestead, his kraal, where did you go to? MR TSHIBALO We left and went to the next village, the village next to the deceased, Mr Ramarumo's village. CHAIRPERSON What was the name of the persons that you went to? MR TSHIBALO It is Laya Tharaga. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Now, all those people who first went to Ramarumo's house, did they all go to Tharaga's kraal? MR TSHIBALO We all went there and then we went to the next kraal. CHAIRPERSON You all went there, you all left together and you went to the next kraal together? MR TSHIBALO There I am not sure as to whether we went there, all of us. I suspect that another group was left behind. CHAIRPERSON Tell me something, at Ramarumo's house, do you know whether anybody was asked to syphon petrol from a vehicle? MR TSHIBALO Yes, I still remember this Owen asking for petrol. CHAIRPERSON Who? MR TSHIBALO I still remember Owen Simeli asking for petrol from Isaac. CHAIRPERSON Only him? Only Owen? MR TSHIBALO Including us who were there, we were also asking him to do so. CHAIRPERSON Did you ask him? MR TSHIBALO Yes, I also added my voice on that. CHAIRPERSON Why did you need petrol? MR TSHIBALO We were intending to burn the huts using it. CHAIRPERSON Carry on Mr Ndou. MR NDOU Thank you Chairperson. JUDGE DE JAGER Did he in fact syphon petrol and give it to you? INTERPRETER Could you please repeat your question? JUDGE DE JAGER Did Isaac then syphon the petrol from the vehicle and give the petrol to you? MR TSHIBALO Isaac agreed, but he was not close by, he was far away from us because his car was outside the homestead. JUDGE DE JAGER Well, did he give petrol to you in the end, or to anybody in the crowd? MR TSHIBALO Yes, I agree, he gave us the petrol, because it was pumped from his car. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you carry the petrol? MR TSHIBALO No, I didn't. JUDGE DE JAGER Who carried the petrol? MR TSHIBALO The people who was in possession of petrol, was Owen Simeli. JUDGE DE JAGER Who poured the petrol on the later victims or on the houses? MR TSHIBALO In the houses of Ramarumo, I didn't identify the person, even in the deceased, I didn't see anybody pouring petrol. What I know is that we used stones. In our group, I suspect the person who was holding the petrol, is the one who poured the petrol. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you see anybody pouring petrol on any victim's body during all those attacks on the 11 houses and the nine people? MR TSHIBALO I know of myself who poured petrol in the other incident, the one at Muswodi, it is me who used the petrol. JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Interpreter, he said paraffin, not petrol? You poured paraffin which you got from the lady there, carrying the lamp? MR TSHIBALO Yes, it is true. JUDGE DE JAGER Now who poured the petrol that Isaac gave to you, which you wanted from him, you yourself asked for the petrol. Who carried the petrol and who poured it on the bodies, and who struck the match to light the bodies or the houses? MR TSHIBALO The person who was carrying the petrol, is Owen Simeli, and I agree he is the person who poured it, but the petrol who light it, I didn't see that person because it was during the night and it was dark. JUDGE DE JAGER But you could see a stone being thrown five metres, but you cannot see who was lighting, striking a match? CHAIRPERSON Couldn't you see who was striking that match because that match is in front of that person? MR TSHIBALO As he was laying down, I thought he was dead but then I left the place, thinking that he was dead from the stones that struck him. JUDGE DE JAGER You will agree with me that if petrol is ignited, it is almost an explosion and you would see at least the fire even if you are 100 yards away? MR TSHIBALO Yes, it is true, but the person who lit it, I didn't see that person. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you during the night ever see any person, the body of a person, being burnt or didn't you see that? MR TSHIBALO No, with this one, I didn't see that, but I only know of the paraffin issue. JUDGE DE JAGER The paraffin, on who did you pour that? INTERPRETER Could you please repeat your question? JUDGE DE JAGER On who or on what did you pour the paraffin? MR TSHIBALO It is in the next incident, there at Muswodi, that is the person that I lit. JUDGE DE JAGER What did you light there, the person or the kraal, the hut? MR TSHIBALO I burnt the person. There at Mr Fanyisani's place, there was paraffin which we found from the lamp and I burnt the person there. JUDGE DE JAGER Was that at Tharaga's kraal or at Mrs - Muswodi? MR TSHIBALO Yes, it is at Muswodi where Fanyisani was there. JUDGE DE JAGER You had made an affidavit about the incident at Mrs Muswodi's house, I want to refer you to page 45, paragraph 50. Then you proceed at Tharaga's kraal you did nothing, and then paragraph 52 "... when we arrived at Muswodi's kraal, we found that the kraal was abandoned. I entered the sleeping hut and found no one. As I was still inside, I saw that the sleeping hut was on fire. I then quickly ran out as I was afraid that the roof would cave in." You didn't mention that you poured paraffin there? MR NDOU Sorry Honourable Member, the incident that is referred to, that is (indistinct) kraal, that is the kraal that they proceeded to and found that there was no one. That was at the very early stages, Muswodi is a different village. I think that relates to incident number 7, 8 and 9 of the matter. JUDGE DE JAGER (Indistinct) INTERPRETER The Interpreters cannot hear. MR NDOU That will be right at the end, that will start from paragraph 71 where he talks about the incident when they followed Fanyisani Ndou to Muswodi. Muswodi is a village ... JUDGE DE JAGER I see. MR NDOU The particular incident is referred to in paragraph 82 where he indicates that the "... crowd then moved in, I took a paraffin lantern and used its paraffin to douse ..." JUDGE DE JAGER And did you set her alight? MR TSHIBALO Yes, I set her alight. JUDGE DE JAGER So you had matches with you? MR TSHIBALO I found the matches there where there was a lamp. JUDGE DE JAGER Okay, thank you. MR NDOU Thank you Honourable Chairman. You have just explained that at Tharaga's kraal you did nothing and you say that you then, the crowd then decided to move to the kraal of Matosi, is that correct? MR TSHIBALO Yes, that is correct. MR NDOU Did you find anybody there? MR TSHIBALO On our arrival there, I opened the hut and I looked and there was nobody. As I was trying to get out of the hut, the hut was burning from the front. Because it was dark inside, then I was fighting with the door, so that I can get out. Then I got out, running, following others. MR NDOU Where did you follow the other people to? MR TSHIBALO Then we were proceeding to Tshirongana's homestead. MR NDOU Is that Mr Libada? MR TSHIBALO Yes. MR NDOU What happened when you arrived at Libada's kraal? MR TSHIBALO On my arrival there, I jumped over the fence. As I jumped the fence, there was a house next to the yard. There I saw Mr Libada sitting behind the hut and then I said "are you still sitting here" and the said "yes". Then I said "haven't you heard that we are fighting with people who practise witchcraft", because he was also one of those people. When he answered me he said "no, I don't practise witchcraft alone, I do it with your father who is called Mr Tshabitso." There where he was sitting, there was a spade and wood and then I took wood, I started to hit him. As I was hitting him, I saw him standing up, I thought he was taking the spade, then I took the spade and then I clap him with it, on the head, and then the whole body. Then he ran away to where there were other huts where there was this other group. On his arrival there, I saw him burning and then falling down and then I realised that this person now might be dead. MR NDOU How had you identified him as one of those people whom people were alleging were practising witchcraft? MR TSHIBALO There was a list as we were moving from one homestead to another homestead, we were not going to any homestead. MR NDOU Who drew the list up? MR TSHIBALO The list as I am saying by the time I arrived, the meeting was already on. I think the list was drawn there at the meeting where I met those people. MR NDOU Did the people know to which kraals they were supposed to go? MR TSHIBALO Yes, it was known that we have to go from here to where. MR NDOU I see. Now from what you are saying, you are saying the only participation which you did at Libada's kraal was as you explained earlier on and as to how Mr Libada died, you only saw fire after he had run to the group, is that right? MR TSHIBALO Yes, because I was - after beating him from the other side using a stick and a spade, then he ran away to that side, and then I was behind him. When I arrived where he was, I realised that he was now burning and I didn't recognise how he was burning. I saw him burning and then lay down as I was chasing him from behind. MR NDOU You will remember from the evidence led in the court proceedings, it was stated that it was yourself and accused 10, your present co-applicant in this application who were actively participating in the killing of these people, what do you say to that? MR TSHIBALO Yes, I agree with that although in other incidents, I didn't participate because wherever we were going, I was there. I agree that the way I participated, could lead him to say that I was actively involved even there where I did nothing. MR NDOU What happened after you had left Mr Libada for dead, where did you go? MR TSHIBALO We then proceeded to the other side. On our way as we were going, there was somebody who said something who is called Solomon, Solomon Thomu. We were with him, as we were walking he said there is a certain lady who is called Nenzhelele. It is this guy who said this lady is always with a lady which is dried at the back, carrying that baby at the back. And that lady is found next to the area where there were aloes. As we got there, looking for her, I am one of the persons who were searching for her, there in the bushes of this aloe trees. As we were searching for her, we just saw her house burning. It is then that we went back to that direction where the burning was taking place. MR NDOU Whose kraal was that? MR TSHIBALO It is the kraal of this Mrs Nenzhelele, I don't know her first name. MR NDOU What you are saying is that you never attended at her kraal, is that what you are saying? MR TSHIBALO Yes, that is what I am saying because I was busy looking for her there in the bushes. MR NDOU Yes, and then what happened? MR TSHIBALO Then we proceeded after the burning, and then as we were going to the direction of Rakhalaru's cave ... JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, have we dealt with Rebecca Nenzhelele now? MR NDOU That is correct. That is right. JUDGE DE JAGER Have we dealt with Rebecca or with Meki? MR NDOU Rebecca, Meki is right ... JUDGE DE JAGER Are we going to Meki now? MR NDOU That is right. Yes, you can proceed. MR TSHIBALO We went to the direction of the cave from Rebecca Nenzhelele's place where there was a meeting. On our way, this Solomon Thomu informed the group that one day he was with Kledi, as he was walking with him, and then they met Meki, Meki Machusa. Then as they were there, they were discussing and he heard this lady talking to Kledi. Kledi was a witch-doctor, and then this lady was asking Kledi for two divine bones, "so that we exchange and then we will give you two zombies, a male and a female". It is then that the group decided that now, "let us go to the kraal of Mrs Meki." It is then that we turned to that direction. MR NDOU Okay, before you turned to that direction, I just want to find out, I see here that you indicated that at that stage when Solomon Thomu gave you the story about the zombies and the divine bones, you were on your way proceeding to the bar lounge of Rakhalaru. Why were you proceeding there? MR TSHIBALO As we were going there, there was evidence that there is somebody who is not around, who is called Fanyisani, who was not around in the village. She ran away, she is now at Muswodi, and then as we were going to the cave, it is there that we can find assistance of car, we will ask his trucks so that they can lead us to where we were intending to go at Muswodi. That was the idea of going to the cave. MR NDOU I see. And this Meki Machusa, was she also on your list of all those people who were suspected of practising witchcraft? MR TSHIBALO Meki Machusa and this Rebecca, I didn't find evidence as to whether they were in our list. MR NDOU So this crowd followed ... INTERPRETER Speaker's microphone is not on, the Interpreters cannot hear. MR NDOU So the crowd was going to proceed to Meki's kraal on the basis of what Solomon Thomu had told them, is that what you are saying? MR TSHIBALO Yes, that is what I said. MR NDOU Yes, and then, what happened? MR TSHIBALO From there, we turned to Meki's place. On our arrival there we were singing loudly and there was nobody answering there. Then we proceeded on our way, going to there where we were thinking of going and ask the truck so that they can go to Muswodi. I think from there, as we were going to the cave in a distance, which is like from here to the main gate here, I heard somebody saying "there is somebody here inside the hut" and then we turned back, running. On our arrival there, I saw somebody running and then that person was running towards the bushes. I didn't know or I didn't identify as to whether it is Ms Meki or it is who else, I heard about it the following day, when I was arrested, that even Meki was killed. But I didn't see what happened to her. MR NDOU Yes, and then what transpired thereafter? MR TSHIBALO As that person ran to the bushes, we then proceeded to the cave's direction. On our arrival there, he was sleeping in the lapa together with his wife and then we started to shout for him saying he must wake up. T hen he woke up. As he woke up, I was one of the people who talked to Mr Rakhalaru that as you are seeing us here, we are here to ask for your trucks, there is somebody who is said to have left this place and ran away to Muswodi, who is called Fanyisani. Then of course, seeing the crowd, he didn't refuse, he gave us one truck and then we said "no, this truck is not enough, we are so many, it is better if you can also give us this other truck." Then we used them both. As we were there, I realised that Timothy Magaraba was also there. Because I know that Timothy is a driver, I asked him to assist us by driving another truck to take us to Muswodi. Then of course he agreed and then we got into those trucks and then we left for Muswodi. On our arrival there, next to Muswodi, there is somewhere where there was a bottle store which is outside the stands and then we alighted from there in the bottle store and then I ordered him not to get inside. Then we - as we alighted, there was one son of this Fanyisani who hid in the truck and then he returned back with the truck as they were going back. Then we proceeded to the house of (indistinct) sister. As we arrived there, I think I saw even Lukhwa and then he was sleeping there. There were two lapa's, one on top and the other from the bottom. There were sticks, I took one and then I pushed her with it, and then I said "are you Fanyisani", then she said "yes, I am Fanyisani", and then I said "Fanyisani, I am here, following you regarding the fact that you fled our country because it was alleged that you were practising witchcraft". She didn't respond. As there was no response, I started to attack, to beat her, to beat her until she said "yes, it is true. I ran away because there were rumours that people were about to be burnt." Then I said "we are here to hear from you why you ran away. It means you know nothing about this issue of witchcraft." Then that person said "what you are saying then is true, I practise witchcraft. I took your clothes, a trouser and a shirt. As she was saying that, I realised that yes, indeed there were some clothes which were missing and then, the fact that he left those clothes at Folovhodwe in the pool of blood, and then I started to be irritated and then started to beat her, questioning her. There was a lamp and then I opened it, there was a lamp and matches, I poured paraffin on her and then I lit it. As she was burning, Lukhwa was also assaulting her. As she was burning, her brother woke up and he was coming to say "no, please". He was coming to say "no, please don't beat me. I also practise witchcraft. When I do it, I do it with Mr Birima". Then we asked where this Mr Birima was staying and then he said "if you want me to point, to show you where he is", then I can show you where he is. Then we agreed, we left with him and then I was in front with him including (indistinct) and others in the group, and then we proceeded to Mr Birima's kraal. On our arrival, Mr Makwivhile got into another hut, ran into the house. As he was inside the house, I knocked in the house made of corrugated iron and a certain lady came out. I don't know if that lady is the woman of Mr Birima. As that lady came out, she was holding a lamp which used paraffin. Then I told her that seeing us here, we are here because of Mr Makwivhile. Makwivhile ran into this house, saying that he is practising witchcraft with your husband. The wife didn't respond and then she put the lamp down and stood there. I think she was scared of what we were saying. It is then that I asked her to give us a cup, then that lady got into the house and gave me a cup and then I took the cup and asked her a box of matches and then she gave it to me, and then we took that paraffin and I sprinkled it. First of all I tightened the door by the wire, then I sprinkled paraffin from the door and then I lit it. As I was lighting, there was a certain lightning which even ourselves, we were not knowing what was happening and then we lay down. Then two people came out from that house, those people were running to the outside direction. Then we followed them. As we were chasing them, I saw him fighting with Joseph Lukhwa. Lukhwa was from behind and he was holding a spear and the spear was on his chest, intending to stab him. Then I decided to hit him by the stick, here at the neck and after beating him, he fell down. I realised that he was no longer able to breathe and then we saw the cars, the lights, pointing to our direction, then we decided to run away and disperse because we were thinking that they were the Police who were coming with the aim of arresting us. That is how we dispersed. The others dispersed to other directions and others were arrested, and I personally went back to my home. On my arrival at home, I entered the hut and thinking of all that we did. Now I was thinking of being arrested, that is how it ended. The following day, on Sunday, the Police came and arrested us. MR NDOU I don't wish to take this any further, thank you Honourable Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MUSHASHA Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps again you can just put your case. MR MUSHASHA Mr Tshibalo, the relatives of the victims would say that you were actually the ringleader of this procession which you were said to kill all the people alleged to be wizards. MR TSHIBALO I can agree with their ideas, I think they took it like that. CHAIRPERSON I am sorry to interrupt you, how long do you think you are going to be? We need to make arrangements with the prisons for the prisoners. MR MUSHASHA Mr Chairperson, I wouldn't be able to indicate because I am sitting here with one of the relatives, he always supplies me with questions. CHAIRPERSON I would have hoped that I had given you enough indication of what our attitude is, but be that as it may, are you intending to call any witnesses? MR MUSHASHA Just one. CHAIRPERSON Just one? MR MUSHASHA Just one. Those are my instructions. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MUSHASHA Thank you. Thank you. You said yes, to my question? The attitude of the victims is that all that you did, had nothing to do with the political climate at the time, what do you say? MR TSHIBALO That is not true. It was linked with politics. MR MUSHASHA They will say even at the present moment, at Folovhodwe and Muswodi, there are people who so to say practise witchcraft in the sense of being herbalists, who would be in the same category with some of the people you had killed and if you were to be set free, those people because of your attitude towards them, would, their lives would be endangered? MR TSHIBALO I agree that when a person has committed a crime and found guilty, the people you have wronged, even if you get outside of jail, when they see you, they will still fear, afraid that maybe that person is still having that idea, but which is not true, because we have now changed our minds. Now we are able to see that now that we have applied for amnesty, we can now speak the crimes we have done, I feel I can say that that person might be just presuming that I will kill that person, but myself, if I am saying that now I have forgiven, if I am forgiven, I have seen the wrongs I have done, but now we are saying that the thing of the past, because we were also including politics by then because the leaders by that time, who were ruling here in the former government of Venda, which was oppressing us, it was another course which led us into taking the decision of burning those people, so that the former Venda government is rendered ungovernable. But now I am saying that person must take away that idea, we are no longer in that thing, we are now Christians. MR MUSHASHA The victims would say that from your testimony it appears you were acting merely on hearsay, you did not have concrete evidence which put you on action in the killings, and they will further say that you have done a lot of damage, you have destroyed property, you have also caused a lot of orphanage in the area and your presence there would not be welcomed any longer. MR TSHIBALO I think that is not true. I can still be accepted because I am no longer living in that, because now what we did in the past, I think I am no longer going to do it again. MR MUSHASHA Their attitude is that you killed innocent people who had nothing to do with politics, who were not members of any political organisations and you also destroyed property which had nothing to do with witchcraft as you put it. MR TSHIBALO Witchcraft was also involved there. MR MUSHASHA They will say that in actual fact, apart from the stages, that is the stages from your, which came subsequent to the incident to your father's kraal, the earlier stages, with regard to the earlier stages, you actually minimised your role. What actually happened was that you were the one responsible for the recruitment of all the young people to execute this evil project. MR TSHIBALO That is not true. I was working by then, or in the first place. That is not true. MR MUSHASHA Mr Chairperson, that would be all from the position of the victims, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MUSHASHA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, any questions? MR MAPOMA I have no questions, Mr Chair. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, have you got any questions? MR NDOU None, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, have you got any more witnesses? MR NDOU That is all Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mushasha, have you got any witnesses? MR MUSHASHA Just one witness. CHAIRPERSON Who will that be? MR MUSHASHA Isaac Ramarumo. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ramarumo, what language would you prefer? MR RAMARUMO Venda. ISAAC RAMARUMO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR MUSHASHA May I proceed? Mr Ramarumo, is it true that you are the son of the deceased Jack Ramarumo? MR RAMARUMO Yes, it is true. MR MUSHASHA You know the two applicants, is that correct? That is Mr Lukhwa and mr Tshibalo? MR RAMARUMO Yes. Yes, I know them, they grew before me. MR MUSHASHA And then, when the incident relating to the deceased Jack Ramarumo, your father occurred, you were present at home, is that correct? MR RAMARUMO Yes, I was present at home. MR MUSHASHA You actually lived with your father in the same kraal, is that correct? MR RAMARUMO Yes, it is correct. MR MUSHASHA You have heard what the two applicants testified about in front of the panel. MR RAMARUMO Yes, I heard all that. MR MUSHASHA Would you be able to explain whether from your point of view, they were making a full disclosure about their participation in the incident respectively? MR RAMARUMO I think they disclosed nothing at all, because I was the leader of the ANC in our village, but I was never informed about this thing or to attend any meeting relating to that. I heard about it at the time as it was happening, as such I don't think this thing have got anything to do with politics. MR MUSHASHA What position did you hold in the ANC organisation in respect of the Folovhodwe/Muswodi region? MR RAMARUMO I am only in Folovhodwe, I was the Secretary. MR MUSHASHA During the time, did you used to hold political gatherings? MR RAMARUMO Yes, we used to hold political gatherings, but not the gatherings similar to that of Tshibalo and Lukhwa. Those are the new meetings in our village. MR MUSHASHA Were you aware of any gathering or meeting wherein the role of witchcraft, relating to the political setup at the time, was discussed? MR RAMARUMO No, I haven't ever heard about that. CHAIRPERSON What position did you hold? Secretary of what? MR RAMARUMO Now I am no longer the Secretary, but I am still a member. CHAIRPERSON That time, you were Secretary of what? MR RAMARUMO I was the Secretary of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON where? MR RAMARUMO In our village, at Folovhodwe. CHAIRPERSON Was that the branch? MR RAMARUMO Yes, it was a branch. CHAIRPERSON Who from your branch would attend the sub-regional meetings? MR RAMARUMO It is Manroma. CHAIRPERSON Who is that? MR RAMARUMO It is somebody who is at home now. CHAIRPERSON What position would he have had? MR RAMARUMO He was the Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And do you know whether he would attend the regional meetings? MR RAMARUMO Yes, sometimes he used to attend meetings from Thohoyandou. We used to attend certain meetings. That is something that I know. CHAIRPERSON We have heard previous evidence ... INTERPRETER Interpreters cannot hear, the microphone is off. CHAIRPERSON We have had previous evidence about the attitude of the ANC with regard to witchcraft and it seems, we were told, it was not contested at the time, that members, high ranking officials from outside the province, from outside Venda, were in contact with people within Venda, including the youth, about - and spoke about witchcraft and the role witchcraft was perceived to be playing politically and that that matter should be dealt with. Do you have any knowledge about that? MR RAMARUMO No, no, I didn't know about that or rather I have no idea about that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR MUSHASHA Mr Ramarumo, it is according to the record of the proceedings relating to this matter, the songs which were sung during the processions were "hogu-hogu-hogu", do you know about that song? MR RAMARUMO I heard them being sung, but some of these songs have got something, that some of the songs were related to political issues, I know. MR MUSHASHA I am talking about the "hogu" song in particular, is it a political song? MR RAMARUMO No, "hogu" is a song from the traditional initiation schools. MR MUSHASHA Which song do you regard, did you regard as a political song at Folovhodwe? MR RAMARUMO The song which I say is a political song, is when we sing a song called "Siyaya Epitori". MR MUSHASHA I see. Now you have heard what Mr Lukhwa, the first applicant, testified in relation to the death of your father. I believe you were present when that incident took place, is that correct? MR RAMARUMO Yes, that is correct. MR MUSHASHA Is it correct that, did he present the role which he played correctly before the Committee? MR RAMARUMO I think he presented nothing at all because the crowd came to me as I was standing. The hut in which my father was sleeping in, was burnt. Mine was on the other side with a car, then I moved to the other side, seeing the hut burning. MR MUSHASHA What did you see him do, Lukhwa, if anything? MR RAMARUMO What I saw is that I was stoned here at the stone mark, and I didn't realise the person who threw the stone which struck me. MR MUSHASHA So you, did you see what the second applicant did to your father at the time? MR RAMARUMO No, I don't want to tell lies. I didn't see that. MR MUSHASHA Any other thing in terms of which you would say the two applicants were not making a full disclosure of their participation? MR RAMARUMO Looking into these things, I think these people as we are talking about reconciliation, it is evidence which as myself, I must put it forward so that we can also see that what a person is saying, is the real truth. But if there is two or three things which they don't want to mention, then I think there is secrecy as such. I think forgiveness from our side, we won't accept it from those people. JUDGE DE JAGER Tell us, what didn't they tell us about? What should they have told us that they hadn't told us? MR RAMARUMO These people they should have indicated that they are the people who actually killed, because they said they were in front, but they didn't mention that, but if a person is in the front and the person even didn't manage to see a person who killed, I don't think they disclosed that issue. I think there is secrecy or something which is being hidden behind that. JUDGE DE JAGER Who had the petrol and who struck the match? Who burnt your father? MR RAMARUMO No, that I don't know, because I was not in that group. MR MUSHASHA Is that all Mr Ramarumo? MR RAMARUMO Another thing they are not disclosing is when the petrol is being poured. Nobody is getting burnt, because if I light something here, if I light petrol here, the people who are close by, must get burnt or at least get minor injuries, but it seems there was a party which was, which a certain group was involved in and then the other party did the other action, when you look at this issue, which shows that Mr Lukhwa is now, I don't think he shouldn't need to be accused in this issue, because there is nothing which is in line with what he did. As such I think in all these things it is not jealousy which he was doing, I don't know how to call it. I think, I don't see that there is any possibility of forgiving them. Although lastly, when you look at these people, they are not afraid of zombies, but they opened the huts of the people with zombies, meaning that they are not afraid of zombies. I thank you. MR MUSHASHA Mr Ramarumo, may I find out if you have also discussed this matter with the other families who have been victims of this incident? MR RAMARUMO Speaking on behalf of these other families which came here, as we were discussing about this thing, they ended up saying that they foresee no reasons why they should forgive these two men. We love them, we stay with them, but they have done us a grievous wrong and we are feeling pains and we don't think there is any way in which we can forgive them. I think it is better for them to remain in jail where they are and then we will feel relieved, as long as they are not being killed, they will be still alive. MR MUSHASHA Any other thing, Mr Ramarumo? MR RAMARUMO I think that is all. MR MUSHASHA Thank you Mr Chairman. That will be all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MUSHASHA CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU Perhaps one or two questions, Honourable Chairman. Mr Ramarumo, what I find strange with your submission is that you tell us that they didn't make a full disclosure, but you fail just to mention one single fact to indicate as to what they have left out. Can you give an explanation for that? MR RAMARUMO I thank you. Regarding what Mr Tshibalo is saying, when you look into it in detail, if I am a member of the ANC, what they did and I wasn't aware of it, it means there is something sinister and the fact that they struck my with stones, they didn't mention that. That they killed my father using an axe, nobody is disclosing that. I think there are so many things. If each and everybody can be given time to explain, then there will be many things which they didn't disclose. MR NDOU Let me ask you again, you agree that initially before the High Court there were 11 accused persons and of those 11 accused, it is only these two applicants who are still in prison and the nine are roaming your village, is that right? MR RAMARUMO Yes, I won't dispute that. MR NDOU Yes, it is a fact. Now, what would be the problem with these two in going back to the village if the other nine are already at your village? MR RAMARUMO From my observation, I think if people were killed, people saying the people were witches, but now that we still have witches, it means that thing is still there, and I think there will still be a continuation. MR NDOU I don't wish to take this any further, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, I don't think you have any questions? MR MAPOMA I have no questions, Mr Chairman, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Tell me, is witchcraft still being practised here in the area? MR RAMARUMO Yes, you won't dispute that, because there are people who are still being killed so far. CHAIRPERSON As a result of witchcraft? MR RAMARUMO One won't know as to whether it is jealousy or, a person would kill you saying you are practising witchcraft simply because there is jealousy in him or her. CHAIRPERSON Oh, I see, okay. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Any other witness, Mr Mushasha? MR MUSHASHA No, no other witness, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA I have no further evidence, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mushasha, we would like to have a list of the victims as defined in the Act. When can we have that? MR MUSHASHA The problem will be the definition of relationship. CHAIRPERSON Look, let me give you an example, where a person has been killed, it is a male, then his wife and children would be victims. His aunty and his niece and nephew, are not. Where he didn't have a wife and children, then his mother may be a victim, but I would advise you to look at the Act then. Maybe you can talk to Mr Mapoma to guide you on that, but we need a list because there have been nine murders, we are not too sure of how many victims per deceased there are. You are the only person who can help us on that. Would it be possible to have it tomorrow? MR MUSHASHA It is possible to have it tomorrow, but not in the morning because there are certain members of victim families, who are not present today. CHAIRPERSON But is there a representative of each family present? MR MUSHASHA Except for the two families. There were two representatives who were said to be still coming, but now to my knowledge, they have not yet arrived. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, have you got a list of victims? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, we do have a list which we have been working on, but it is not as thorough as it would have been, had one consulted with the victims direct. CHAIRPERSON Maybe Wednesday morning at the latest, I would have expected you to have had that list already, after all you are appearing for the victims. MR MUSHASHA Yes, yes, I can't promise you did not expect this, but as I am saying by tomorrow afternoon, I think it will be ready. CHAIRPERSON Well, I am going to give you until Wednesday morning. MR MUSHASHA Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON If nothing is forthcoming, we are just going to go ahead and make the decision without that. MR MUSHASHA Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Is that the roll for today, Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Yes Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, do you want to argue? I don't know if you need to argue? MR NDOU I thought I would do them all simultaneously, unless - any time, I wouldn't have any problem, I am prepared. I thought I was going to deal with argument of all the incidents. CHAIRPERSON It would seem from previous experience with you, that you would have gauged what the position is in any case. We leave it at that, if you want to argue, then you argue. If you don't want to, then it is also okay. MR NDOU Yes, Honourable Chairperson, in all fairness, I think I have had a look at the matter and as the applicants are performing and ... CHAIRPERSON I don't expect you to commit yourself. MR NDOU Thank you Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mushasha, we don't need your argument, and neither do we need an argument from ... MR MUSHASHA Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Are the members of the Prison Services here, the Correctional Services? I don't see. Can you come forward please? I wonder if it is possible to have these prisoners here tomorrow early, at about half past eight, quarter to nine, we would like to start at nine o'clock? CORRECTIONAL SERVICES Nine o'clock? CHAIRPERSON Okay, thank you. These two prisoners that have just finished their evidence, they don't have to come. They can, they need not come, we are done with them. Okay, thank you. Yes, we will adjourn till nine o'clock tomorrow, sharp. JUDGE DE JAGER Please don't let us sit and wait for anybody again. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, can I see you in my rooms, please? COMMITTEE ADJOURNS