amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-09 THOHOYANDOU 2 VICTOR BRIAN MUKHELI AM6679/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54172&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200509th.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Mukheli, what language would you prefer to use? MR MUKHELI Venda. VICTOR BRIAN MUKHELI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mukheli, you have made an application for amnesty and you filed an affidavit, do you confirm that the contents of this affidavit is your evidence? MR MUKHELI Yes, I confirm it is my evidence. MR NDOU I also see that in paragraph 28 you admit to participating in the killing of the deceased by actively doing something. Is that correct? MR MUKHELI Yes, it is true. MR NDOU I don't wish to take this any further Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU CHAIRPERSON Mr Mukheli, on page 19(c)(ii), paragraph 25 of your affidavit, you say that the crowd then questioned her as to why she still accepted visitors from the politicians who were oppressing the people and furthermore she was also questioned as to the whereabouts of people who were disappearing from the area. What was her response to that? MR MUKHELI She didn't give the answer, the time for her to can answer, that didn't arrive because the person who was giving evidence here before me, assaulted her at her back and then she fell down before she could answer that. CHAIRPERSON Did she answer why she was still accepting visits from the politicians? MR MUKHELI May you please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON Did she answer the issue of being questioned about why she still continued to entertain visits by the politicians? MR MUKHELI No, she didn't respond to that. CHAIRPERSON Why not, do you know? MR MUKHELI She didn't respond because the person who asked her immediately assaulted her, and then she fell down, as such she was unable to respond to that. She was laying on the ground. CHAIRPERSON Were these two questions asked, one after the other? MR MUKHELI Yes, they were questioned one after the other, in the same sequence. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG Thank you Mr Chairman. If I can refer you to paragraph 10 of your affidavit, you stated there that she was, that is the deceased, was one of the well known Traditional Witch-doctors. What I want to know is did you yourself ever see the deceased practising witchcraft? MR MUKHELI No, I never saw her going to practice witchcraft. MR VAN RENSBURG So you only heard from other people that she was a witch, is that correct? MR MUKHELI Yes, but I heard about it from many people from the community. MR VAN RENSBURG Hm. One of the previous witnesses said that she opened this trade or she practised this trade openly and that was in fact how she made her money? You cannot confirm that out of your own knowledge, is that correct? MR MUKHELI I only knew that she was a Traditional Healer, but I never saw it in public, that she is a Traditional Healer. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I have to put it to you and that is again my instructions on behalf of the victims, Mr Chairman, I have to apologise, perhaps I didn't put this point strong enough to the other witnesses, it is in fact the position of the witnesses, the victims, that they deny that the deceased was ever a witch-doctor and that she in fact was a shibeen owner. What do you say to that? MR MUKHELI I am not in dispute of what the family or the victims are saying, because I was not part of that family. MR VAN RENSBURG Did you ever buy beer from the deceased? MR MUKHELI No, I was not a drinking person. MR VAN RENSBURG Hm. If I can refer you again to paragraph 26 of your statement, that is page 19(c)(ii), the last sentence reads as follows "... the crowd lost control and started to assault her and ultimately killed her." Shouldn't we deduct from that statement that it was in fact a killing that happened at the spur of the moment, that it was driven by the anxiety of the crowd present and by the emotions present at the time, and that was the reason why she was killed? MR MUKHELI That is not true. MR VAN RENSBURG I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, I have no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA MR NDOU Nothing Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU JUDGE DE JAGER Did she have any opportunity to decide whether she wanted to accompany you to the chief, or was she assaulted before she could even consider going to the chief with you? MR MUKHELI The question is too long, I am unable to catch it, then I am asking that maybe you can shorten it. JUDGE DE JAGER Was she ever asked to go to the chief with you? MR MUKHELI Yes, that was our main aim, but she refused. JUDGE DE JAGER Did she refuse, she said no? MR MUKHELI Yes, she was refusing, and then we decided to drag her. She did not want to walk, and then she was crawling when we were trying to carry her to that place. JUDGE DE JAGER When did you ask her about whether she, why she still accepted the visits by the politicians? Was that before she crawled or after she crawled? MR MUKHELI That was when she was crawling and then somebody who was leading us said "no, let us stop this, let us first ask her some questions". JUDGE DE JAGER Was that after she refused to go to the chief or before? What is the answer? MR MUKHELI It is when she was refusing to go to the headman's kraal. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. ADV SIGODI Tell me, this Youth Congress, when was it formed? MR MUKHELI (no interpretation) 1986. ADV SIGODI The incident which led which was immediately before this one, was the disappearance of certain people, who were the people who disappeared mysteriously? MR MUKHELI A certain man called Walter Mueki and that lady, I don't remember her name, I know her surname, it is from Reginani, they are the people who disappeared. ADV SIGODI Do you know if they had been found after that? MR MUKHELI Walter Mueki was never found, that lady we searched all over for her, and then we ended up finding her. ADV SIGODI Was she dead or was she alive? MR MUKHELI She was about to dry, she was unable to speak, unable to walk and unable to see. ADV SIGODI When was she found, before you were arrested or after? MR MUKHELI That was before I was arrested. ADV SIGODI What was wrong with her? MR MUKHELI What I remember is that when she came back from where she was working, she lost the route to her home, but the bus stop at which she was supposed to alight, is in the gate of her home, but she was lost. ADV SIGODI Then she was found in the same village, or where was she found? MR MUKHELI She was found in the bush, she was found after searching house by house. CHAIRPERSON ... dragged her out of the house, correct? MR MUKHELI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON You and the other two applicants? MR MUKHELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Was she ever told, "look, we want you to go to the headman for a 'trekpas'"? MR MUKHELI Sir, the people were so many, speaking at the same time, saying that we wanted to take her to the chief, because she didn't accept our request, we took it to her through our chief. CHAIRPERSON I don't follow your answer. Just repeat your answer. MR MUKHELI She was told but by many voices. CHAIRPERSON And then she resisted to do that? MR MUKHELI She resisted, she never agreed to go to the headman. CHAIRPERSON As a result of her resisting, that the other part of the understanding took effect and then she was killed? MR MUKHELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR NDOU That is all the evidence. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr van Rensburg, have you got any witnesses? MR VAN RENSBURG No witnesses on this instance. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No witnesses Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well, that is the end of the matter, the evidence? MR NDOU That is so. CHAIRPERSON Mr van Rensburg, have you got any submissions to make? MR VAN RENSBURG Regarding this specific incident, I have no submissions to make. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, we don't need to hear you, and neither do we need to hear Mr Ndou. MR NDOU Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr van Rensburg, what is the victim's name here? MR VAN RENSBURG Her name is Takalani Sylvia Movhe. She is related, she is the deceased's daughter, Movhe. I can given the identity number 590109 0141 08 0. CHAIRPERSON 59 - 41? And her address? MR VAN RENSBURG Her address is P.O. Box 125, Vhuwani and unfortunately the postal code is unknown at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Okay. I do understand that the front road, in front of this building, is going to be occupied tomorrow in the morning through a march by the labour forces. I hope to start at nine o'clock, I am saying that whoever wants to be here at that time, must make an effort to come to the venue earlier than usual and avoid getting stuck in the traffic. We will adjourn until nine o'clock sharp tomorrow. morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS