amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-10 MIDDELBURG 2 MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA AM1221/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54173&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200510mi.htm CHAIRPERSON Good afternoon. We want to start the proceedings. For the record, it's Wednesday the 10th of May 2000, it is the continuation of the sitting of the Amnesty Committee at Middelburg. The Panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record. We just wish to indicate that the proceedings are starting late today, due to a number of logistical and other difficulties that have largely been occasioned by the fact that all of the applicants in all of the applications that are on our roll for today, are in custody in different centres and they had to be transported from these centres to Middelburg, where we are sitting, which is the most central point for the matters that are on the roll for this particular session in Middelburg. The situation has been exacerbated by the fact that at some of the centres, Correctional Services has not had its normal staff component, resulting in pressure on the diminished resources that were available, and that affected us and delayed the proceedings here because some of the applicants had to be transported over considerable distances to the venue. We apologise for the delay in being able to start. We do intend to, if it's at all possible, finalise the matters that are on the roll for today and if needs be, for that purpose we will consider continuing the session till beyond the normal sitting hours, in order to be able to do so. The matters that are to be heard now are the applications of D L Phasha, amnesty reference AM1319/96, L L Phasha, reference AM1318/96 and M M Phasha, reference AM1221/96. I'm going to allow the legal representatives to put themselves on record. I'll start with Mr Richard. MR RICHARD Thank you, Chair. Tony Richard, Johannesburg. I am appearing for the Phashas, the applicants. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Richard. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. I'm Frank Mokoena from Nelspruit, I'm representing the victims. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mokoena. And then the Leader of Evidence. MS MTANGA I'm Lula Mtanga, Chairperson. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Yes, Mr Richard? MR RICHARD Thank you, Chairperson. I start by calling Michael Morudi Phasha, who is happy to be sworn. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Richard. Mr Phasha, are your full names Michael Morudi Phasha? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Please stand to take the oath. MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Richard? EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Phasha, where were you born? MR M M PHASHA I was born at Driekop, in the Northern Province. MR RICHARD And what is the nearest major centre to Driekop? MR M M PHASHA The smallest town is Burgersfort and the bigger on is Pietersburg. MR RICHARD Now is that where you were educated, reared and grew up, until your arrest in 1993? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR RICHARD Now what education did you receive? MR M M PHASHA I reached standard 10, but I did not finish standard 10. MR RICHARD Now am I correct in making the statement that the area is a rural area? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR RICHARD Am I also correct in saying that in this area the traditional structures of chiefs, their councillors, senior chiefs, junior chiefs, still exists and has existed throughout your life? MR M M PHASHA May you please repeat the question. MR RICHARD My question is, is it not correct that throughout your life, in the area where you have lived and grown up and led your life, the traditional structures of chiefs in villages, sub-chiefs and so on, still exist? MR M M PHASHA Yes, they still exist. MR RICHARD Now before we go into the essence of the matter, I've decided to use certain particular words and I'm going to ask the witness a number of questions. What is a moloi? M-o-l-o-i. MR M M PHASHA It's somebody who kills people, using supernatural powers. MR RICHARD And what else do moloi's do? MR M M PHASHA Amongst other things that he does is to abduct people. Those are the people that we know that they have died, but he knows that they did not die. That is his secret and he will use those people the way he wants to use them. MR RICHARD And for what purposes would he use those people? MR M M PHASHA According to my little knowledge, amongst the purposes that he used them for include his personal things, or he together with his people who are doing the same thing that he's doing, that is other witches. MR RICHARD I go to the next term, and forgive my pronunciation. The Sotho is ngaka, what is a ngaka? MR M M PHASHA He's the person who helps other people, people who believe in black traditions, by helping them and protecting them against the witches. So his main duty is to protect them and also to expose some of the deeds of the witches. MR RICHARD Do ngakas also treat you when you're ill? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR RICHARD So a ngaka is more than just a traditional healer, he's also a person who points out molois. MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR RICHARD Now how would a ngaka go about pointing out a moloi? MR M M PHASHA He uses different methods, it will depend on that particular traditional doctor, that is his training. There are those who will be able to point the witch by using a mirror, and others, many others may use divine bones and they will read from the divine bones what is happening. MR RICHARD Now I give a hypothetical proposition, if I were a resident of a village such as the one that you come from, and had reason to suspect the work of a moloi, what would be the procedure for me to do? How would I go about dealing with the problem? Could I go to the chief, could I go to the ngaka, how would I process my complaint or question? MR M M PHASHA If that family is under the authority of a particular chief, they will go to that chief and he will give them advice as to what they should do, but other families they will go directly to the traditional doctor. That would depend on the knowledge that they have about traditional doctors. MR RICHARD Now if the traditional doctors, or as we're calling them, ngaka, believe that witchcraft, a moloi, is involved, what role would the chief perform? INTERPRETER May you please repeat the question, Mr Tony Richards. MR RICHARD Thank you. If the traditional doctor, ngaka, comes to the conclusion that there's the work of a moloi on hand, what would happen? Who would be spoken to next, what procedures would be established, or followed? MR M M PHASHA The first thing that I know that the traditional doctor will do, will be to attend to the problem that you tell him about. So it will also depend on you what type of help need from him. MR RICHARD What function would the chief fulfil? MR M M PHASHA What the chief does is to give directives and advices which will enable you to get help. He may send you to a traditional doctor, the one that he believes that would be able to help, but his main task is not to heal like a traditional doctor, it's just to advise people and give them directives, as the leader in that particular village. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now would you please tell the Committee and the Chairperson what are your beliefs regarding the powers of ngakas and molois. MR M M PHASHA My beliefs about the traditional doctor is that he is able to help a person who has problems, it can be family problems or sicknesses. By talking about family problems I refer to, for example, from our beliefs as black people, we know about witches, so the traditional doctor will help him and give him protection. My belief concerning the witches is that this is the person who is able to do things that other people may not be able to see them. He will be the only person who sees those things, and such deeds can only be seen by a traditional doctor. MR RICHARD And you believe what the traditional doctors tell you and you believe what they say? MR M M PHASHA Because I grew up under that belief, yes, I do believe what the traditional doctor says because he's able to see what I cannot see. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now sometime early in February, a person called Moses went missing, would you please tell the Committee what the relationship between Moses and you was. MR M M PHASHA Moses was my brother, but we had different mothers and our fathers were also brothers. That is why I refer to him as my brother. MR RICHARD In other words, if I use the European classification and terminology, he would have been termed a cousin? Your father's brother's child. MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR RICHARD Now Moses grew up in the same area as you, did he not? MR M M PHASHA That is correct, we grew up together in the same village. MR RICHARD And did he have any political sympathies, did he support any political party? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR RICHARD Which party did he support? MR M M PHASHA He was the ANC supporter like myself. MR RICHARD Now what did Moses do to actively support the ANC? MR M M PHASHA His main involvement I would say, is that when the ANC Youth League was launched at our village, he was one of us. We were together in fighting for the launching of the Youth League, but we did not have the membership cards, because that was the first time that we have a youth organisation in our area. MR RICHARD Now for how long before February '93, did the Youth League organisation of the ANC, exist in your village, Driekop? MR M M PHASHA When the ANC Youth League was launched, the ANC already existed, but for a period of not more than five years in our village. MR RICHARD So am I correct in drawing the inference that the late Moses was an ANC sympathiser and supporter for some number of years? And well-known to be that. MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now if I understand this correctly and I have my chronology right, is it not correct that on the 15th of February, Moses' body was found and he was dead? MR M M PHASHA What I remember is that his corpse was found, but I do not recall the day in which his body was found. MR RICHARD Where was his body found? MR M M PHASHA His body was found at the mountain next to our village. MR RICHARD And in what condition was his body? MR M M PHASHA The body was already decomposing and it looked as if some of his body parts were missing. MR RICHARD Do you have any knowledge of what body parts were missing? MR M M PHASHA I remember his tongue, his teeth and the skin around his head. The skull was actually exposed, and on his body he had a knife cut on his chest, but I was not able to see what was removed from his inside, but he had that wound. It looked like a knife wound on his chest. MR RICHARD Was it a deep wound? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR RICHARD Now when you saw the body, would you agree that it bore the trademarks of what is called in the popular press, a muti killing? MR M M PHASHA Yes, that is what I believe. MR RICHARD Now how long before had the late Moses gone missing, was it a day, a week, two weeks, do you remember? MR M M PHASHA He went missing on the 16th of January 1983 - 1993, rather. MR RICHARD Was he well at the time he went missing? MR M M PHASHA Yes, he was still well. MR RICHARD Did he suffer from any ailments, any mental imbalance, pains in his side? MR M M PHASHA Yes, he was a sickly person, but his sickness at that period when it was suspected that it involved the - he was actually bewitched. MR RICHARD How do you know that he thought he was bewitched? MR M M PHASHA In his family - when he started becoming sick he was living with me, I was taking care of him, and he used to tell me that the people who made him to be ill, he gave me their names actually. That is how I came to know that he was bewitched. MR RICHARD And who did he name as the molois or witch-doctors that were bewitching him? MR M M PHASHA The first one was Mamoghe Phasha. The second one is Reisiki Phasha, and Reisibi Mashabela. The fourth one is Maletswai Phasha. The fifth one was Mamelele Phasha. The sixth one was Abraham Madibeng Phasha. MR RICHARD I might have misunderstood you, but wasn't there another name, Jan Phasha, or was it one of the people that you've already listed? Jan Mashyani Phasha. MR M M PHASHA He did not mention Jan Phasha's name as one of the people who bewitched him, but he was actually exposed by the traditional doctors who were called by the chief. MR RICHARD Now amongst those names mentioned, you mentioned the name Abraham Phasha, Abraham Madibeng Phasha, is that not correct? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR RICHARD And there was another name that I would like to put to you, Johannes Mamletswa Phasha. MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR RICHARD Now was Johannes Phasha also pointed out as a witch or moloi? MR M M PHASHA Maletswai. MR RICHARD I beg your pardon, Maletswai. Was he also pointed out to be one of the molois? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. ADV SANDI Sorry, just explain that. Pointed out by who? MR RICHARD Who pointed Johannes Maletswai Phasha as a moloi? MR M M PHASHA He was named by Moses before we went to the traditional doctors. He was firstly mentioned by Moses, as one of the people who were troubling him. MR RICHARD And which of the traditional doctors mentioned his name? MR M M PHASHA The first doctor is the one who used the mirror, but I forgot his name, and the second one's name is Makwebelani Moloto and Ditoi Ghapola. MR RICHARD Now were you present when Abraham Madibeng Phasha died? MR M M PHASHA Yes, I was present. MR RICHARD How did he die? MR M M PHASHA He was stoned to death. MR RICHARD How many people stoned him to death? MR M M PHASHA They were more than 500 people. MR RICHARD Now of those 500 people who were present when he was stoned to death, who was the first person to throw a stone? MR M M PHASHA If I recall well, the first person to stone him was myself. MR RICHARD Now at that time, and as you gave evidence, you were active within the ANC support group as a supporter, there was a cry amongst the youth as to what should be done with impimpis and molois, what was that cry? MR M M PHASHA The youth were concerned that the witches were killing people who would be future leaders of the ANC, and such people should be killed if it is found that he had done that. MR RICHARD Who did the youth believe the witches supported on a political level? MR M M PHASHA As youth we believed that the witches supported the people who were against the aspirations of the ANC, that is to fight for freedom. ADV SANDI Sorry, who were those people? MR M M PHASHA I'm referring to people who were against the aspirations of the ANC, like political parties who supported the then government to suppress black people. MR RICHARD Forgive me, Chairperson, if I listen to the interpreters dialogue, I thought some names were mentioned. I'd like to hear the names. What were those names again? MR M M PHASHA No, I did not mention names of people. MR RICHARD Were there local persons in the Northern Province, in your area, who supported the apartheid government? MR M M PHASHA According to my knowledge one such person was the King, who was our leader, because he supported the then government. MR RICHARD Now did that person have any particular relationship with either ngakas or molois? MR M M PHASHA I believe that they had dealings with the witches, then the doctors. MR RICHARD And what did that person who was a leader of your area, who supported the apartheid government, want of the molois? MR M M PHASHA His name was Mpho Nylete William Mashabela. MR RICHARD And what did Mr Mashabela want the molois to do for him, according to your belief or knowledge? MR M M PHASHA Amongst other things that I think he wanted the witches to do for him, was to fight against the youth who belonged to the ANC Youth League, so that the ANC Youth League should not develop. MR RICHARD How would that fight have been carried out? MR M M PHASHA I believe that amongst other things that would be done would be to kill the youth, like they did to Moses Phasha. MR RICHARD Right, let's go back to Moses Phasha's disappearance around the 16th of January. How long did it take for you to notice that your brother had gone missing? Did you notice it immediately or was he missing for a few days before you noticed? MR M M PHASHA Like I've already said that he was a sickly person, the first day he disappeared we became aware that he was missing because we could not find him in any of the family households, and that is how we realised that he has disappeared. MR RICHARD What efforts were made to search for him? MR M M PHASHA Before the community became involved, the family and relatives started searching for him, even in other villages where we thought that he might be there, but after realising that he was nowhere in those areas we went to seek for help from the traditional doctors. We wanted them to show us whether he has disappeared or not and if he has disappeared, what could have been the cause for his disappearance. MR RICHARD And what did the traditional doctors tell you? MR M M PHASHA They told us that Moses has been abducted. MR RICHARD And what had happened to him as a result of his abduction? MR M M PHASHA The person who was actually involved in that was Jan Mashyani. He was the person who was in contact with the traditional doctors and then he would take that to Moses' family, and then he said the doctors said he has disappeared, he has been abducted by the traditional doctors. MR RICHARD When you say he's been ...(intervention) INTERPRETER By the witches rather. I'm sorry. MR RICHARD Now who said Jan Pasha was involved? I didn't quite follow. The traditional ngaka the nyanga? MR M M PHASHA Jan Mashyani Phasha was the person who was involved in the family, to help the family to find out from the traditional doctors what happened to Moses and what help is available from the traditional doctors to find him, so he would take the report from the doctors to the family. In other words, he was the person who was the link between the family and the traditional doctors. MR RICHARD Now does that mean that Jan Phasha was pointed out as a moloi? MR M M PHASHA No, he was not pointed out as a witch, but he was the person who had the knowledge about Moses and what happened to Moses and what were the reasons for his disappearance. MR RICHARD Now was he the only one pointed out? MR M M PHASHA I don't understand your question, do you mean him being pointed out as a witch? MR RICHARD Well he was pointed out as being involved with the witches in Moses' disappearance. My question then is, how many others were pointed out at this stage, as being involved? CHAIRPERSON No, no, Mr Richard, the applicant is saying that Jan Phasha was not pointed out as a witch, he was a go-between between the family and the traditional doctors, in order to try and find out what had happened to the deceased. So he wasn't pointed out as a witch, hew as simply helping the family. MR RICHARD I stand corrected, thank you. Now what did you do with that information? MR M M PHASHA As family members or relatives, we were trying all the means to find, or to look for him where we thought he could be. We even informed the chiefs in the neighbouring villages, asking them to tell us whenever they see him. MR RICHARD Now did you consult ngakas again, so as to find out what had happened to Moses? MR M M PHASHA The reason why we went back to the traditional doctors was that Jan Phasha went back to them to ask for help because they are they are the people who knew what happened to him. He asked them to help the family by returning Moses back to the family. MR RICHARD And what did the traditional doctors say in response to Jan's request? MR M M PHASHA What Mashyani Phasha told us was that the traditional doctors have instructed him to go where Moses was hidden and then he'll be able to find him there, and that is where he was found. MR RICHARD Now before he was found - let me put the question this way, at what stage did the youth of the area become involved? MR M M PHASHA After that Jan returned from the traditional doctors, he went to the chief. He requested the chief to give him some members of the community to go with him to that place where the traditional doctors said he will find Moses at, and that is how the youth were also involved in this issue. MR RICHARD How did the chief react to Jan Phasha's request? MR M M PHASHA The chief agreed and he wrote letters and he sent those letters to various schools in that village, instructing the schools that they should stop with their activities so that everybody can help in the search for Moses. MR RICHARD Now if you turn to paragraph 10(b) at page 15 of your application, there you say "There were one of the ANC Youth League at KwaMatabela village, who had been lost. The people of Matabela village include with the ANC youth at that village, were started to be angry and their captain, mentioned at paragraph 9(c), was granted letters to two high schools in his village to release the students to be helped by hunting that lost person to the mountain caves." What do you mean "to the mountain caves"? What do you mean by that? Where are the mountain caves? MR M M PHASHA This mountain I'm referring to is in our village. MR RICHARD And - carry on, sorry. MR M M PHASHA The problems that ensued at the mountain was that after that the youth have searched the mountain and they did not find Moses, they became angry towards the chief because they did not find Moses, so they wanted to know from the traditional doctor what has actually happened. MR RICHARD How many people went to the mountain cave? MR M M PHASHA More than 500 people, because there were so many people there. MR RICHARD Now when the search for Moses was unsuccessful, what happened next? MR M M PHASHA Because Mashyani Phasha was confronted by the youth he gave the youth the names of the people who were involved in Moses' disappearance. That is when the youth decided that it will be better if they can get those people who have been mentioned as witches, so that those people could help in the search for Moses. MR RICHARD Now did they act out what had to be done on that decision? MR M M PHASHA Yes, they did. MR RICHARD What did they do? MR M M PHASHA They went to the chief's kraal. MR RICHARD And what did they do there? MR M M PHASHA When they arrived there they took a decision that they have to go and fetch those people who were alleged to be the witches, so that they could come and help the community. And they indeed went out to fetch those people. MR RICHARD And when was it that Abraham Madibeng was named as the person responsible for Moses' disappearance? MR M M PHASHA Abraham was named together with people like Mano Gomaletswai Phasha and others and Abraham Madibeng Phasha. MR RICHARD Who names Abraham Phasha, who specifically named him as a witch? MR M M PHASHA He was named by Jan Mashyani Phasha. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now on the day that Abraham Madibeng Phasha died, were any efforts made to apprehend and seize any other people names as witches? MR M M PHASHA That is correct, but they were not found. MR RICHARD So on this day, where was your brother, your co-applicant, Daniel Lisufi Phasha? MR M M PHASHA Daniel Lisufi Phasha, when Madimeng Phasha was killed, he had gone out with another group that went to search for the other witches, but he left after he asked the community to accuse Madibeng, because the community was angry and he was afraid that in trying to protect him he could also be killed and people may also suspect him as a witch. That is why he left with this other group. MR RICHARD From your answer I understand that Daniel wasn't present while the stoning was happening, is that correct? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR RICHARD Now when did he arrive in the village, was it that day or the day before? MR M M PHASHA He arrived on the same day, the same day Madibeng was killed. MR RICHARD At what time? MR M M PHASHA I did not see him when he arrived, but that was sometime after 6 o'clock in the afternoon and that is when I realised that he was present, then I was surprised to see him because I knew him to have been at Secunda. MR RICHARD Now you made a statement that he left because he had tried to dissuade the crowd from doing anything to Madibeng Phasha, did I understand you correctly? MR M M PHASHA May you please repeat that question? MR RICHARD I'll put it slightly differently. Did Daniel agree that Abraham Madibeng Phasha should have something done to him? MR M M PHASHA I don't think that he agreed, but he only tried to help protect Madibeng, but now because he could not do that, he left, because the community was angry. MR RICHARD Did he know that - at the time he left, would he have known that Madibeng Phasha was in danger of being killed? MR M M PHASHA I believe that he knew that there was a possibility that Madibeng could be killed, due to the fact that the community was very angry. MR RICHARD Where did he go? MR M M PHASHA He went out with the other group that was going to search for other witches. MR RICHARD Now had any stones been thrown at the time he left? MR M M PHASHA They had not yet started throwing stones when he left. MR RICHARD If he had returned with other people that had been named as witches, what would have happened to those other people? MR M M PHASHA The way I understood from Daniel and the way I heard what Jan Mashyani Phasha said, was that those witches should come and help find Moses Phasha, not that those witches should be killed. MR RICHARD Now at the time there was this crowd of 500 people around the deceased, were they singing and chanting? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR RICHARD What were they singing, what songs? MR M M PHASHA ...(no English interpretation) MR RICHARD What do those words mean in English? MR M M PHASHA One of the songs that they sang was about Maletswai Phasha, that he was undermining the community, because Maletswai was regarded as the senior witch. CHAIRPERSON Isn't it also true that they were singing a song which has words, which translate into English as "Kill the impimpi, kill the witch"? MR M M PHASHA That is one of the songs, but in most of the cases they will sing about Maletswai. MR RICHARD I believe, Chairperson, my learned colleagues can take it further in cross-examination, I've laid the basis. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Yes, does that conclude the evidence-in-chief? MR RICHARD Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mokoena. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, although I don't have proper instructions, I would just have a few questions which I want to clarify with the applicant. Mr Phasha, you testified that the youth then left to the chief's kraal, were you part of the youth at the time when they went to the chief's kraal? MR M M PHASHA Yes, I was. MR MOKOENA Did you regard the chief as your enemy? MR M M PHASHA Yes, I did. MR MOKOENA Why then did you go to your enemy's kraal? MR M M PHASHA As a member of the community I went where the community was going and I wanted to be part of the meeting and to get what we were looking for. MR MOKOENA Was this meeting attended by both old and young people? MR M M PHASHA Yes, both. MR MOKOENA Was the chief regarded as an enemy of only the youth, or both the old and the youth? MR M M PHASHA I wouldn't be certain about the community as a whole, but I am certain that he was regarded as the youth's enemy. MR MOKOENA How many people died before the disappearance of Moses? MR M M PHASHA Many people, such that I won't be able to tell the number. MR MOKOENA The young or old? MR M M PHASHA Young and old. ADV SANDI If I can just come in there. Can you sort of explain under what circumstances such people would die? MR M M PHASHA I may not know the reasons why they were killed, but there were suspicions about their deaths. Like we know that a person can die due to an accident, or become ill and die, but their deaths were very suspicious. ADV SANDI Tell us more about that. Why were such people's deaths suspicious, suspicious to who? MR M M PHASHA At that time they were suspecting the whites. I just want to know whether you mean that whether those people suspected the whites or not, I was actually not answering. ADV SANDI Yes, but you say a lot of people died before Moses disappeared and I have asked you in what kind of situations would these people die, would it be car accidents, people falling sick and dying, or old people just dying because their life has come to an end? You know, that sort of thing. MR M M PHASHA One of them, if I remember well, died after he had fallen from the bed. The other one died because it was said he was struck by lightening. ADV SANDI Can I take it that you are not suggesting that there was anything political about the circumstances in which those people had died? You're not suggesting any politics in that. MR M M PHASHA I believe that because at that time people were not yet involved in politics, they became involved after the - around the death of Moses. ADV SANDI Thank you. I'm sorry about that, Mr Mokoena, I just wanted that clarity. MR MOKOENA Okay, thank you. Mr Phasha, you said your leader was supporting the previous government and therefore used these witches to fight the youth, who were inspired with the motives or whatever, of the ANC. Now what I want to find out is, how did - or what exactly did these witches do to fight the youth? MR M M PHASHA Amongst other things that they would do would be to kill the youth, like the community believed that they were killed by the witches. MR MOKOENA Now from your evidence-in-chief it appears to me as if there was a healthy relation between the chief and the community as such, because the chief also allowed his people to go and assist Mr Jan Phasha in searching for the missing person and also even wrote letters to the school requesting their assistance. Why would the chief be so much involved in the searching of the missing person, if he was involved with this moloi? MR M M PHASHA I believe he did that because he was under pressure from the community and the youth. MR MOKOENA Was there - prior to the missing of Moses, was there any stage where the youth and the chief had a direct consultation? MR M M PHASHA ...(no English interpretation) MR MOKOENA I'm saying, prior to the missing of Moses, was there any stage whether the youth and the chief had a confrontation? MR M M PHASHA There were conflicts between the chief and the community and the community was helped by the youth in trying to resolve those conflicts between the chief and the community. But at that time there had never been any physical fight, they would be involved in verbal confrontations only, until the disappearance of Moses. ADV SANDI Can you just explain, what were these disputes about between the youth and the chief? MR M M PHASHA One of the conflicts was that there was an allegation that the chief was misappropriating the community funds and it was said that he could not develop the community like other communities were developing. ADV SANDI Sorry, just for my clarity, are you still talking about the same chief you said would be approached from time-to-time by people from the community who had problems and they wanted to know from the chief where to go for assistance from a ngaka, a witch-doctor? MR M M PHASHA That is correct, that's the same chief. ADV SANDI You say in spite of all those problems, people continued to approach the chief for assistance and guidance? MR M M PHASHA That was happening because the community respected the chief, they did not care how he was carrying himself out, but now because he was the chief, they really respected him. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR MOKOENA Mr Phasha, did the chief restrict your political movements, or maybe meetings or demonstrations? MR M M PHASHA There is a meeting that he disrupted and he told us that he doesn't want us to hold political meetings in his village, and that is when we realised that he was against the youth. MR MOKOENA Did he prevent maybe the, not necessarily the youth, but the ANC members, not being the youth only, the ANC, say the ...(indistinct) from meeting? MR M M PHASHA When he started preventing the youths meeting it was at the time when we were launching the ANC Youth League, that is why I say he was particularly against the ANC Youth League. MR MOKOENA Okay. And did he belong any other political organisation? MR M M PHASHA As to whether he was a member of a particular political organisation, we did not have that, but I believe that according to his actions, or following his actions, it was evident that he was a supporter of a certain political organisation, although I may not be able to specifically say which organisation. MR MOKOENA I thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mokoena. Ms Mtanga. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Phasha, in your evidence you've testified that before your brother's disappearance numerous people had died. MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MS MTANGA You grew up in a community that believed in witchcraft, would I be correct to say that? MR M M PHASHA That is so. MS MTANGA Can you tell this Committee as to whether every time a person died in your community, did you believe that person was killed by the witches, or was bewitched by the witches? MR M M PHASHA We would only suspect that he has been bewitched if there is reasons for suspicions, and then we would consult the traditional doctors, we would not just suspect witchcraft in any death. MS MTANGA Can you give an example of a death where you wouldn't suspect witchcraft? MR M M PHASHA Like I mentioned that a certain girl fell from her bed and died. MS MTANGA So in that case you did not suspect witchcraft? MR M M PHASHA Because there were no actions taken, I can say we did not - there was no suspicion of witchcraft, but Moses' death raised suspicions because it was further confirmed by the traditional doctors and it was at that time that the people started to suspect that even the previous death of that girl was due to witchcraft. MS MTANGA When you suspected that a person had been killed by the witches, or when it was confirmed by your traditional doctors that such a person was killed by the witches, how would you know what the motive of the witches for killing this person was? How would you know the motive of the witches? MR M M PHASHA May you please repeat the question. MS MTANGA I'm asking you, in the instance where a person is killed by the witches and you have this confirmation from the traditional doctor, how would you as the community know why did the witches kill the person? How would you know the motives of the witches for killing that person? MR M M PHASHA The community will learn from the traditional doctors. MS MTANGA Can you give us a case where a witch-doctor told you what the reason was for the killing of a particular person, and what did he give those reasons to be? MR M M PHASHA I don't understand whether you say I should give you an example related to the death of Moses, or any other death that took place there. MS MTANGA I want an example other than the death of Moses, another example where you knew what the reasons for this killing of this person were. MR M M PHASHA I have been told that the traditional doctors would actually give reasons why the witches would kill a person. I learnt that after the death of Moses, because before the death of Moses, we didn't have suspicions. MS MTANGA What did the traditional doctors say were the reasons for the killing of Moses? MR M M PHASHA They said the witches wanted to use him or his body parts to make traditional medicines. MS MTANGA If your brother Moses was killed because the witches wanted to use him for their purposes, what did this have to do with politics? Why would his death then be political? MR M M PHASHA His killing is associated with politics because this doctor explained that Moses was the supporter and a member of the ANC Youth League at that village under Chief Mashabela, and the chief had actually tried to prevent the ANC Youth League from developing, and that is one of the reasons why Moses was killed. MS MTANGA Which traditional doctor told you this? MR M M PHASHA This traditional doctor was not telling me, but he was telling Jan Phasha, from whom we got this report. I do not know his name, but I know this traditional doctor comes from Taung in the Driekop district. MS MTANGA My understanding of your evidence was that six people were shown by the witch-doctor on the mirror, as people who had caused the disappearance of your brother, am I correct? MR M M PHASHA May you please repeat. MS MTANGA Okay, let me put it this way. The six people, Mamoghe Phasha, Reisiki Phasha, Reisibi Mashabela, Mamelele Phasha - I can't pronounce the name properly, but your father's aunt, were pointed out by a witch-doctor, how were they pointed out by the witch-doctor? How did you know it was them who were behind the disappearance of your father? How did you know? MS MTANGA From the report we were given by Jan Phasha, there was a doctor who was using a mirror to show those people who were alleged to have been involved in his disappearance. MS MTANGA At the point when you were giving this evidence, why didn't you state that the witch-doctor - when he showed these people the mirror where the six people appeared, why did you not mention that the reasons were given by the witch-doctor that your brother was killed because of his political activities? MR M M PHASHA From the evidence that I have tendered here I was answering according to the questions that were being asked. I was not asked about what you say I was supposed to have said. It is because maybe you did not ask me about that. MS MTANGA To which political organisation - or what was the political affiliation of Mamoghe Phasha? MR M M PHASHA I do not know in which political organisation Mamoghe Phasha belonged. MS MTANGA Did you know - okay, finish your sentence. MR M M PHASHA I do not have any knowledge about the political party she belonged to, the only thing that I believe is that she was being used to be against the youth. MS MTANGA Who was using Mamoghe? MR M M PHASHA Like I have heard from her that she was used, I heard this from Mamoghe Phasha, that there was a person who was their senior or their leader in witchcraft and he was the person who was using them and that was Maletswai Phasha. MS MTANGA What was the political affiliation of Maletswai Phasha? MR M M PHASHA I do not know in which political organisation did he belong. MS MTANGA Your uncle, Abraham Phasha was killed, can you tell us who gave orders for him to be killed? MR M M PHASHA What I can explain about the killing of Abraham Phasha, was that people were trying to get help as to how they could find Moses, because they failed to do that, they became angry. So in other words, his death was actually caused by the anger amongst the youth. MS MTANGA Did these youth have a political affiliation? MR M M PHASHA They belonged to the ANC. MS MTANGA I have no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Panel? MR SIBANYONI And you say you were the first to throw a stone at him, is that so? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR SIBANYONI Who said you should do it? MR M M PHASHA No-one gave me orders to do that, but I did that because I was angry. MR SIBANYONI So you are saying there was no instruction that he should be killed, but because you people were angry you spontaneously started throwing stones at him? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR SIBANYONI When you were explaining this word "moloi" and "ngaka", you gave an impression that these are two distinct people, there is a person who is generally known as moloi and then there will be one who is generally known as ngaka. Did I understand you correctly? MR M M PHASHA According to me there is a difference between the two. MR SIBANYONI Is moloi not ngaka? INTERPRETER May you please repeat the question, Sir. MR SIBANYONI Is moloi not ngaka? MR M M PHASHA According to me the witch is not the doctor, there's a difference between the two. MR SIBANYONI What's the difference? MR M M PHASHA For example, I grew up under the belief that there is witchcraft and witchcraft involved the killing of people, or the abduction of people from their communities under mysterious circumstances and the community would not know how they disappeared or how they died. They will only find his body - sometimes they will think that the person is actually dead, whereas he is not dead, he's been taken by the witches. I would say they are using magic. MR SIBANYONI These are the things which you heard when you grew up in your community, did you ever see a person who was believed to be dead, but in actual fact he was just abducted and used for other purposes? MR M M PHASHA I have never seen such a person. MR SIBANYONI You said Moses informed you that some people were causing him to be ill, did I understand you correctly? MR M M PHASHA That is what I said. MR SIBANYONI How would Moses know which people caused him to be ill? MR M M PHASHA He told me about those people who did that to him and what made me to believe was after we had asked a certain man to come and help Moses, because he would always complain about pains in his body, so while this man was still helping Moses and this man told us that we should go and find a certain muti at the river so that he could be able to help heal Moses, on our way, myself and Moses, to go and look for that muti, before we could arrive there at the - there is a cave there, before we could enter that cave, Moses said to me "You should know that there is a person who is accompanying us and he is guarding us." Then I asked him "Why do you say so?" He said to me "I know the condition in which I am, it will not be easy for you to understand, but I am telling you that there is a person who is guarding us and his name is Maletswai Phasha." We continued to the river and then he said to me we should not use the same path, we should go different ways. He took another direction, I took another direction and that is when I met this Maletswai Phasha and he asked me what we were looking for. He was aggressive to me, but I did not tell him what we were looking for, but because Moses had already told me that I was one of the people who was bewitching him, when I asked him, I said to him that we are going to look for the cows and then he told me that there are no cows that side and he said to me we should not continue. Then I said to him "It's okay, I'm going to look for a person who has accompanied me", and then he said to me "Yes, I know the person who is accompanying you because I have seen him." ...(intervention) MR SIBANYONI Sorry, that's a long answer to my question, how did Moses know who is bewitching him. I wanted to know, did he have any gift or any skills to know people who are bewitching him? MR M M PHASHA Yes, I believe that there is a way that we can use to know that. MR SIBANYONI From your evidence-in-chief, Moses was not a high-profile member of the ANC Youth League, he was merely present when it was launched, did I understand you correctly? MR M M PHASHA Yes, that is what I said, but I don't know whether I should further explain that. MR SIBANYONI What do you want to explain further about that? MR M M PHASHA I want to say that the ANC Youth League, it was the first time that it was launched at that village and most of the people did not have membership cards, so Moses was one of the people who had not yet been issued with a membership card, he was just a supporter. That is why I said he was not a high-profile member of the Youth League. MR SIBANYONI Did you also personally ever look at the mirror to see these people who were accused as witches? MR M M PHASHA No, I did not look at that mirror. MR SIBANYONI Apart from Moses, no other ANC member was believed to be bewitched in the area, am I correct? MR M M PHASHA If I understand your question well, when this incident took place, the only person who was involved as an ANC Youth League member was Moses alone. MR SIBANYONI Is it not merely a coincidence that Moses was a member of the ANC Youth League, because according to you many people had died before and those people were believed to be bewitched? Is it not just a mere coincidence that Moses was an ANC member? MR M M PHASHA I do not understand the question well. MR SIBANYONI Let me put it in different ways. Many people died in your area and the community believed that those people were bewitched, is that so? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR SIBANYONI And amongst those people who died, only Moses was a member of the ANC Youth League. You said so, isn't it? MR M M PHASHA That is correct, because these other people died before the ANC Youth League was launched. MR SIBANYONI Yes, I'm coming to the fact that Moses died in the same way as the other people. There is no indication that he died merely because he was a member of the ANC Youth League? What do you say to that question? MR M M PHASHA I do not agree with you. MR SIBANYONI Why not? MR M M PHASHA I believe that Moses was killed because they knew that he was one of the supporters in the Youth League in the village. Like I have already explained, the traditional doctor who was helping him, that is Mashyani, did explain the reasons that led to Moses' disappearance and his ultimate death. MR SIBANYONI But the way you explained the condition under which his body was found, it looked like an ordinary muti killing. What do you say about that? MR M M PHASHA I can agree with you only because I believe that the people who did that, they did that to destroy evidence so that people could not know why they killed him. MR SIBANYONI And according to the judgment he was hung with his neck on a tree in the mountain, is that the position? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV SANDI Thank you, Chair. Just tell us very briefly about the mental condition of Moses - very briefly. MR M M PHASHA He was a healthy person mentally, because there was nothing that made me to suspect that he was not mentally well. ADV SANDI About how old was he? Was he working, was he employed, what was he doing? What was his occupation? MR M M PHASHA He was born in 1966. He worked at the Impala gold fields in Rustenburg, in the mine security section. ADV SANDI According to your evidence-in-chief you said Moses gave you certain names of people whom he believed were performing witchcraft against him. What did you do with that information that was given to you by Moses? MR M M PHASHA I kept that information to myself because I did not have the powers to say anything because I was not a parent. The person who was responsible was Jan Phasha, who was Moses' brother, and he was the person who was consulting with the traditional doctors and liaised with the relatives. So I compared the information that we were told by Jan, and I compared it to the one that I got from Moses, and I realised that there were similarities. ADV SANDI Are you saying that you did not even convey this information to Jan Phasha, who was busy going up and down trying to find out what could have happened to Moses? You didn't tell him about this? MR M M PHASHA I did not. ADV SANDI Is it the first time today that you are taking this information out of your chest? You've never said it to anyone after it was conveyed to you by Moses, even after he had disappeared and was found dead somewhere in the bushes? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. ADV SANDI Did you have any reason for doing so? MR M M PHASHA Yes, I do have. ADV SANDI Can you give us that reason. MR M M PHASHA Because of our belief - a person must be exposed by the traditional doctors, I was afraid to reveal that because I had not yet consulted with the traditional doctor and the people would ask me how do I know that, because that is the information that should be revealed by the traditional doctors. That is why I became afraid to reveal that to anybody. ADV SANDI Yes, but did you ever ask Moses why he believed that these people were performing witchcraft against him? Did you ask him how he knew this? MR M M PHASHA Yes, I did ask him. ADV SANDI What did he say? MR M M PHASHA He told me that he is able to see that like a person who is a prophet, that is why he said to me that it would not be easy for me to see what he was seeing at that time. ADV SANDI Can you please give us names of anyone in the village who was killed by a witch-doctor, in whatever manner that may have been applicable in any case. Just give us names. Before Moses disappeared and after Moses had disappeared. Just give us names. MR M M PHASHA One of the people that I remember was a certain boy called Mtso Taboga Mashabela. He was struck by lightening. ADV SANDI Is it your story that the witches in the village were targeting any particular people? MR M M PHASHA I do not believe that they would attack any person. ADV SANDI I'm not sure if you understood my question. Were these molois, these witches, targeting any particular kind of people in the community? MR M M PHASHA According to my belief they would not bewitch any person, they knew who to bewitch. ADV SANDI Who did they bewitch? MR M M PHASHA They were mostly targeting the youth and a person who is progressing well in life, who is able to attain certain things in life, like for example, education. He would be one of the people who would be targeted by the witches. ADV SANDI In other words, you're saying they would carry out witchcraft against a particular target out of jealousy? MR M M PHASHA It can be so, but I have no certainty of that, because I would not know what their motives are. ADV SANDI Yes. You're not - please correct me if I'm wrong, you're not suggesting that the actions of yourself, the actions of your co-applicants and members of the crowd were politically motivated? That is not what you are suggesting, are you? MR M M PHASHA I do not understand the question well. ADV SANDI Okay, let me put the question differently. Tell us what is political about the events in which yourself, your co-applicants and members of the crowd were involved in. What is political about that? MR M M PHASHA Politics are involved because after the chief had prevented the youths from organising themselves as they wanted to launch the branch in the village, the disappearance of Moses - one of the reports that we got from Jan Phasha was that Moses was killed because he was one of the youth who was involved in the launching of the ANC Youth League in our area. That is how we associated that with politics. ADV SANDI Are you suggesting that there was a conspiracy between the chief and the witches in the village? MR M M PHASHA That is my suspicion, or let me say, I believe so. ADV SANDI Why did you believe so? MR M M PHASHA The reason is that the chief, after a decision was taken that a traditional doctor should be consulted, that is the one who used the mirror, the chief went out with another group which was sent to go and see that traditional doctor, and when they arrived there the chief prevented that traditional doctor from carrying out his duties. ADV SANDI I'm afraid I've tried very hard to follow you, but I cannot follow you. Maybe the last question I should ask you, is it not the position here that you were bitter and angry that this sort of thing had happened to your brother? MR M M PHASHA It is so, but I became more angry when Abraham was also killed, because I believe that if I was angry from the beginning the community wouldn't have been involved. I managed to contain myself and not reveal what I heard from Moses. That shows that I wasn't angry at that time, I only became angry when Abraham was killed. ADV SANDI Why were you angry when Abraham was killed? MR M M PHASHA What made me angry was that I was told by Moses that Abraham was also involved, or was one of the people who were alleged to be witches, while on the other side Abraham said that he would not be able to help find Moses. That is one of the things that made me angry. ADV SANDI Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Just one issue. Did you kill Abraham, the deceased, did you kill him for a political reason? MR M M PHASHA I believe so. CHAIRPERSON Can you explain that? MR M M PHASHA Abraham Madibeng Phasha was killed because of politics because he took part in the killing of one of the ANC members, or one of the supporters of the ANC Youth League in Chief Mashabela's village. That is where I was born. We expected that the members of that organisation would become future leaders and help the community. CHAIRPERSON Did you - do you mean members of the ANC Youth League, you expected them to become leaders in the future? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is that why you killed the deceased? MR M M PHASHA That is the reason why he was killed. CHAIRPERSON Was he stoned by this entire crowd? MR M M PHASHA No, because they were so many people there, the only people who managed to stone him were those who were in the front. CHAIRPERSON But did the entire crowd support the attack on the deceased? MR M M PHASHA That is correct, because at the time he was being stoned some of the people were chanting and singing slogans while others were busy stoning him. CHAIRPERSON And were the members of this crowd either supporters or members of the African National Congress Youth League? MR M M PHASHA At the time of the incident I believe that they were supporters of the ANC Youth League. ADV SANDI Why did you believe that members of this crowd were members of the ANC Youth League? Supporters of the ANC Youth League, rather. MR M M PHASHA It is because when we started our meetings in preparation for the launching of the organisation all of them were in support of the launching of the organisation and there was no-one who was against the idea of launching the ANC Youth League, and there's no-one who showed any other allegiance to a certain organisation other than the ANC. ADV SANDI Sorry Chair, if I can just take this particular one further. What time was it that this crowd of people congregated? What time of the day was it? MR M M PHASHA It could have been between 8 and 9pm. ADV SANDI Ja, but how were you able to observe who constituted this crowd? MR M M PHASHA From during the day while we were holding the meeting we were all together until the time we went to that place where the incident took place. There's no-one who left. ADV SANDI Thank you very much. I'm sorry about that Chair, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Okay. The crowd was chanting and singing, what kind of chants and what kind of songs were being sung? Was it church hymns or what was it? What kind of songs? MR M M PHASHA They were singing liberation songs. CHAIRPERSON Do you know what the toyi-toyi is? MR M M PHASHA Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Some of these chants and the songs that were sung, have you ever heard them during a toyi-toyi? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now at this time when this incident happened, amongst the crowd were there members of the leadership of the ANC Youth League present? MR M M PHASHA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did they participate or support the action that was being taken? MR M M PHASHA I believe that they took part, although some of them did not manage to take part due to the size of the crowd. CHAIRPERSON Was there anybody who tried to stop the attack on the deceased? MR M M PHASHA No, there's no-one who tried to stop the attack. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Richard, re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you, Chair, a few questions. The first I beg your leave to ask it, because I should have asked it and I omitted to do it. The applicant at paragraph C1 on page 15 of the bundle, puts Jahannes Phasha as a victim. What happened to Johannes Phasha that made him a victim, why was he included? If I may ask. MR M M PHASHA Maletswai Phasha became a victim because his house was attacked and ransacked when they went to look for him, and his property was also damaged. That is at the time the youth were angry, looking for him at his place. MR RICHARD The next point if we go to paragraph C4 on the same page, and this flows from one of the questions in cross-examination, about whether there were other people who were similarly victims, as was the deceased, the question asks "Any other information which may assist in identifying and locating the victims." your answer there was: "There were someone who was being a lost and dead." Who is the person that was lost and dead? There, I've marked it with an X. "There were someone who was being a lost and dead." Are you talking about Abraham, or are you talking about somebody else who was lost and dead? CHAIRPERSON Or are you talking about Moses? MR RICHARD Or Moses. Do you remember what you meant? MR M M PHASHA I was actually referring to Moses as one of the victims. He was the victim of those people who were alleged to be witches. MR RICHARD Now my next question is, the crowd of about 500, what would they have done if the chief had not co-operated with them and allowed the schools to be closed so that pupils could join in the search for Moses and in the beatings that were going on? MR M M PHASHA May you please repeat that question. MR RICHARD The chief sent various letters which resulted in schools in the area closing, which enabled the plan, as you say that the scholars would be able to assist in attending the meetings and searching for Moses. Now my question is, what would the crowd have done if the chief had not co-operated with them in the manner you described? MR M M PHASHA I would not say what the community would have done, because they came to the chief, they believed that they will be helped to get Moses. They came to the chief to ask for help. MR RICHARD It arises from another question. I am correct when I understand it this way, that Moses' body was found a day after Abraham had been killed. In fact his body had not yet been found when Abraham was stoned, am I correct or have I misunderstood the sequence? MR M M PHASHA When he was stoned it was not yet known about Moses' disappearance. We only heard about his body after four months, and we were told that by the police who were involved in the investigation about Moses disappearance. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD ADV SANDI If I could just ask one or two questions which I thought I would ask the applicant. Can you tell us very briefly what was the relationship between the chief and the elderly members of the community? MR M M PHASHA Are you referring to the councillors in the community? I do not understand whether you're referring to the leaders of organisations like the ANC. Can you please explain the question. ADV SANDI Now you didn't tell us anything about councillors, so I can't ask you anything about councillors in the community. I'm talking about the chief in the village and parents in the village, how would you describe the relationship generally between the chief and what one could refer to as parents in the community? MR M M PHASHA The relationship between the parents and the chief related only to the instructions that were issued by the chief and they will carry out such instructions. That is the only relationship that I think they had with the chief. ADV SANDI But you say the chief - would you say there was bad blood between the chief and elderly people in the community, or were they getting on well, without any friction? MR M M PHASHA I believe that there was bad blood between the parents and the chief, but that did not have anything to do with the killing of Madibeng Phasha, that only related to the chiefs misappropriation of the community funds. That is what I believe made the parents angry. ADV SANDI How would you describe the political affiliation or sympathy of most elderly members of the community at that time? MR M M PHASHA The majority of the parents were believed to be supporting the ANC, because they allowed the youth to launch the ANC Youth League branch, because some of these parents also acquired membership cards, but that is after I was arrested. When I was released on bail I discovered that the majority of the parents had the ANC membership. ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Okay, sorry, you've answered me. Thank you, Chair. MR SIBANYONI Just one question. You were always talking about the ANC Youth League, was there no ANC branch in your area? MR M M PHASHA I heard about the ANC launch after I was released on bail, because I discovered that the majority of the parents had membership cards of the ANC, and one of the parents was also the Chairman of the ANC. His name was Knox Mokwala. MR SIBANYONI When Moses' body was discovered, were you still out or it was after you had been arrested? Were you present when the body was discovered? MR M M PHASHA I was not present, I saw his corpse at the mortuary. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Phasha, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR RICHARD That is Mr Phasha's case. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Richard. Who is next? MR RICHARD His brother, Daniel Phasha. CHAIRPERSON Thank you.