amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-10 PORT ELIZABETH 3 MYAMEZELE NDINGANE AM3838/96 ATTEMPTED ROBBERY AT A BANK IN UITENHAGE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54177&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200510pe.htm ON RESUMPTION MR MBANDAZAYO I'm calling the second applicant Myamezele Ndingane. May he be sworn in Chairperson? He is Xhosa speaking. MYAMEZELE NDINGANE (sworn states) JUDGE MILLER Before you proceed Mr Mbandazayo, if you take a look at page 32, there's just the spelling of the name, I see on the application form it's D-I-N-G-A-N-I, but this letter is signed Ndingane, N-D-I-N-G-A-N-E, what is the correct spelling of the name? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson, the correct one is the one signed by the applicant. JUDGE MILLER Ndingane. MR MBANDAZAYO Ndingane. JUDGE MILLER Not Dingane. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes. JUDGE MILLER Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Ndingane, you have heard the evidence of Mr Baleka. Do you confirm his evidence in as far as it relates to you? MR NDINGANE Yes, that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Do you also want this evidence to be incorporated to your evidence, be part of your evidence before the Commission? MR NDINGANE Yes, I would like his evidence to be incorporated to my evidence. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, Mr Ndingane, just for the record, can you tell the Committee when did you join PAC and how? MR NDINGANE When I was growing up I became a member of Azanu because the PAC was a banned organisation. That was in 1984. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you at any stage join APLA? MR NDINGANE Yes, I joined APLA in 1993. MR MBANDAZAYO Where did you join? MR NDINGANE I joined in the Transkei in a place called Tafelofef. MR MBANDAZAYO Who was your Commander there? MR NDINGANE My Commander was Tembani Barrie. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Ndingane, can you tell the Committee your role, especially when you were inside the bank? Mr Baleka has already told the Committee about the planning and everything. What was your role in the bank on the 21st of January? What role did you play when you were inside the bank? MR NDINGANE The role that I played in the bank, we told that white lady to open there and then I collected money in the bank. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you manage to get any money? MR NDINGANE No, we did not manage to get any money. JUDGE MILLER Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, when you say you collected money, did you actually reach the stage where you took hold of money and put it in these post office bags? MR NDINGANE Yes, we did that. JUDGE MILLER Did you get the money from where the tellers work or from the safe or the vault, or what? MR NDINGANE We told her to open the safes that were under the counters, two of those safes. When we were about to go to the said safe, Gadafe then told us that the enemy was coming. JUDGE MILLER You don't know how much money you took, but was there a lot of money that you put in the bags? MR NDINGANE Yes, it was a lot of money because I was the one who was taking it out of the two safes. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you. And then, what happened? Did you leave the bags behind when you heard that the enemy is in sight? MR NDINGANE When we heard that the enemy was outside, I looked outside and I saw the enemy. When I saw the enemy, one of them looked inside but he could not see inside and one of them was trying to open the bank door, but the door was locked. Two of these policemen went to the van. One of them took a radio out of that police van, he was talking to that radio. Nongcuba as a Commander inside, gave us an order to leave everything there because as the police were busy on the radio, they were calling for reinforcement, that is the reason why we left the money behind. MR MBANDAZAYO Lastly Mr Ndingane, can you tell the Committee about your previous convictions? MR NDINGANE I was arrested in 1987. As we know, in 1987 there was violence. We were trying to overthrow the white government, those that were oppressing the people of Azania. I was a victim of that government. I was arrested in connection with a car theft. We were using that car, operating with that car, so the government charged me, but we did not mention the fact that we were working underground, that is why I'm a criminal today. I was arrested in connection with that. MR MBANDAZAYO About your second conviction. MR NDINGANE My second conviction, I was arrested in kwaZakhele, we were destroying white people's property. In kwaZakhele there were those game machines that school kids use to play with and those machines were put there by the white people, so we were trying to destroy everything that was owned by the white people, so as we were destroying those machines, there was one person who knew me there and he told the white people and they charged me and I was sentenced for five years in connection with that. MR MBANDAZAYO That's the evidence of the applicant at this stage, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Any questions? MS THABETHE Just one, Mr Chair, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Mr Ndingane, what would your response be to the question that how do we know that this operation is not part of criminal activities, but it's political? What would your response be? MR NDINGANE As my Commander has already explained here, that I was one of the people that were involved in this operation and as I've already mentioned, I'm an APLA soldier. I was obeying an order, so you can see that I'm a soldier and I was obeying an order. When you are a soldier, you don't have to argue, you just have to follow and obey an order. MS THABETHE No further questions, Mr Chair. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE JUDGE MOTATA Just one. Looking at page 59, Mr Ndingane, it would appear the second charge is armed robbery where a firearm was used and R4 000 was taken. MR NDINGANE I will answer your question, Chairperson. The Government that was ruling this country, was trying by all means to charge you with something that you did not do, because they say that I had a firearm, but I was not arrested having a firearm. Even in this case I was charged and the Government of the day could create a story because the police were furthering the interests of the white people, they were not furthering the interests of the people. That is my answer Sir. JUDGE MOTATA Did you hear in Court that you were using a firearm to commit a robbery? MR NDINGANE Which robbery? The one we're talking about now? JUDGE MOTATA The one in 1989. MR NDINGANE I heard that and I dispute that but they did not care about my argument because I was a black person. JUDGE MOTATA Did you take money? MR NDINGANE I did not take money there, we just destroyed those machines, those game machines. JUDGE MOTATA Thank you Chairperson. Thank you Mr Ndingane. JUDGE MILLER When were you arrested for this robbery, the failed robbery in Uitenhage? MR NDINGANE I cannot remember the date, but it was in 1994, between March and April, I cannot remember the date. JUDGE MILLER Can you remember who you committed this robbery with? You had the first applicant, Mr Baleka, who else? MR NDINGANE Yes, I still remember very well Sir. JUDGE MILLER Who were they? MR NDINGANE It was Mr Ngruma, his name was Joey Mshweshwe, Tongongara, his name was Stanley Mtetejana, it was Mabutwa, it was Gadafe and his real name was Waga. JUDGE MILLER And do you know where these people are today, or if they're still alive? MR NDINGANE We tried to investigate and what I found out from the Comrades that were fighting in this country, I heard that they died or they passed away. CHAIRPERSON Did you hear when they died? MR NDINGANE No, I did not hear. JUDGE MILLER Do you know whether the APLA called a cease fire? MR NDINGANE I did not hear about that before the operation. JUDGE MILLER When did you hear about it? MR NDINGANE I heard about it after the operation. JUDGE MILLER Yes. When? MR NDINGANE I think it was February or March. JUDGE MILLER Did you ever receive any training? MR NDINGANE Yes. JUDGE MILLER Where and when? MR NDINGANE In 1993 in Tafelofef and ...(indistinct) JUDGE MILLER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. JUDGE MILLER Sorry, just one question. On page 32 again, this is the letter you wrote to the Commission, you say and I quote "I later heard the comrades who were with me in this operation were shot dead during the time I am held in prison for other operations." Did you hear that they were killed while performing other operations? MR NDINGANE What happened, yes, I'm the one who wrote the statement, so what happened is, we normally use this word "operation". As I have already said before the Panel, my comrades that were fighting with me died, so what I wrote here is what I heard, that is why I wrote this way, because I heard this when I was in prison. JUDGE MILLER Yes, but if somebody is walking down the street going to the shop to buy a newspaper and gets shot in the head and gets killed, is that dying in an operation? MR NDINGANE As I have already mentioned, Chairperson, this word "operation", as a trained person it is on my mind as a soldier, that is why maybe I made a mistake and wrote operation here. JUDGE MILLER And you don't know the circumstances in which they were killed, yet you say they were killed in operations, because of your military training, you're so used to using the word operation, is that what you're trying to tell me now? MR NDINGANE I don't know how they died, I only heard that they died, so what I wrote here is the information that I heard. JUDGE MILLER So why did you assume they had died in operations? Is it not because you thought that they - you were just trying to stress the point that you were comrades in APLA because there wouldn't have been any operations when you were in prison. MR NDINGANE I agree with you, Sir, because at the time I was arrested, there were democratic elections and a new government was elected, the Government that I was fighting for, so I don't think they were involved in political activities. JUDGE MILLER Yes, you see because somebody in reading this gets the impression that you've got no idea about APLA and its operations, if you talk about them getting killed in operations after your arrest and that you're just making it up. That's the impression that one gets when one reads this, saying that my comrades were killed in later operations in 1996 and 1995 and things like that. It's an indication that you've got no idea about APLA or how they operated or when they stopped to operate. MR NDINGANE Chairperson, one other thing is that as we are in prison we are affected on our minds and as we are there, we did not go there because we wanted to, so other things, you would say things that you did not mean to say because of the pressure, so what I'm trying to say is that maybe I made a mistake to mention this because in 1994 there were democratic elections and a new government that we were fighting for was elected, so maybe here I made a mistake because there is nobody who does not make mistakes, anybody can make a mistake. JUDGE MILLER Yes and you and Mr Baleka made exactly the same mistake. MR NDINGANE What I would like the Committee to note is that this is my comrade, what he does, I also do that. We would take the applications and read our applications together, that is why we made the same mistake because we are here concerning the same incident. If it was a different - if these were different incidents, that would be another case, so we are here concerning the same incident, so that is why we made the same mistake and we are under pressure there because as we are here today, we were fighting for the freedom, but we are still in prison, that is one other thing that is affecting us. What I would like to say before this Committee, I was supposed to appear before this Commission, I don't even remember in which year. I waited for a year to come here. I was given a date by the Amnesty Committee and I was waiting for a year and some months before appearing here and I would like the Panel to note that in prison we are under a lot of terrible pressure. We people that were fighting for this country, we are still in prison and as I am sitting here today, there are my comrades that are still in prison and they are regarded as criminals, but they were my comrades, I was fighting with them in this country, for this country. CHAIRPERSON Anything further? MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, I just wish to call only one person after the applicant, regarding. CHAIRPERSON Turn off the applicant's machine in the meantime. MR MBANDAZAYO I just wish to call Mr Filita just to confirm, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Certainly. WITNESS EXCUSED MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you. Can he, Chairperson, be sworn in, Mr Filita, Bonakele Filita? SAMUEL BONAKELE FILITA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Filita, am I correct to say you are a member of PAC? MR FILITA Yes, that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee when did you join PAC? MR FILITA 1960. MR MBANDAZAYO Where did you join PAC in 1960? MR FILITA In Port Elizabeth. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, Mr Filita, can you tell the Committee what was your role within PAC? MR FILITA My role in PAC, or I joined PAC in 1960 and in 1962 I was a Deputy of the Commander of the Eastern Cape. After that I joined APLA. After 1994 I was the Head of Security up to now. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr filita, let me take you back. Am I correct to say that the incident that happened at Vugu Scrap Yard in 1991, ...(indistinct) to your premises. MR FILITA That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee about the incident at Vugu Scrap Yard? MR FILITA I found two APLA soldiers in 1990, they were operating inside until January whereby information leaked and the police found them in my premises. They were then shot, two of them were shot at and they died. MR MBANDAZAYO Am I correct to say one of them was Jabu Mdunge? MR FILITA Yes, that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Filita, Mr Baleka testified before this Commission that he was recruited by yourself to the PAC. MR FILITA That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee what was the role that was played by Mr Baleka? MR FILITA As we were operating, Mr Baleka joined PAC and he was a member of my branch. Later on I met with him and he was a courier. If I still remember well, because this happened a long time ago and I was also from prison, so maybe I cannot remember every detail like dates, but Baleka was a member of the PAC and after that he joined APLA and he was working as a courier. I then heard that he was arrested. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee, do you know about the incident in which he was arrested and how did you know about it? MR FILITA No, I do not know about this incident. What I heard, I heard from their Commander Nongcuba, after this incident. He told me that they were in prison, that is when I heard about this incident. Otherwise, I don't know when it happened or how it happened. MR MBANDAZAYO Did Nongcuba confirm too that it was an APLA operation? MR FiLITA Yes, that is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO That is all Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO MS THABETHE No questions, Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE JUDGE MOTATA Just one question Mr Filita. Nongcuba, what did he say to you, what had he commanded them to do and what were the proceeds thereof going to be utilised for? MR FILITA He did not give me those details, he just told me that his unit was arrested doing an operation. We all know why they were there, so there was no need for him to give me details. JUDGE MOTATA What do you mean that all of them were there, details were not necessary? What do you mean by that? MR FILITA What I mean is, I knew those people, all of those people that were arrested concerning that operation, so when Nongcuba told me that his unit was arrested, so I knew. JUDGE MOTATA Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did he tell you that the whole unit was arrested? MR FILITA No, he did not say how many were arrested but he only said that his unit was arrested. JUDGE MILLER Because we know that his unit wasn't arrested, not all of them. MR FILITA He might just say that something has happened to him, that the operation was not successful. JUDGE MILLER Because we also know that they were arrested some time after the incident. MR FILITA Yes, I also heard some time after the incident from Nongcuba. I did not hear from ...(indistinct) during those days of the incident. JUDGE MILLER When did APLA announce that it's ceasing the armed conflict? MR FILITA I do not know the exact date, but it was in January 1994, but people were confused, they were not satisfied when APLA suspended arms, so people did not know how we were going to be free, they were not satisfied, that is why some of them continued until 1995, because they did not accept that, or they were not satisfied. JUDGE MILLER Yes, but then if they were doing that, then it wouldn't be in furtherance of the objects of the organisation. It would be against the directives of the organisation, wouldn't it? MR FILITA Yes, that is correct, but there was nothing we can do as the leadership of the organisation. CHAIRPERSON Just one thing I wanted to make quite clear, are you still head of security? MR FILITA Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Is that for APLA or the PAC? MR FILITA PAC. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR MBANDAZAYO That's the evidence of the applicants, Chairperson. MS THABETHE No witnesses, Mr Chair. MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT Chairperson, the applicants have testified before the Committee and they, in detail, described their role and how they conducted and how they executed in this incident and it's my submission that on the side of disclosure, they have made a full disclosure regarding their role they played in the incident. They went into details, elaborate details. The second question is that whether the incident was politically motivated. Chairperson, with the exception of their previous convictions which may indicate that they have some criminal record against them which may impact on the incident itself, Chairperson unfortunately there have been incidents where APLA member of High Command testified that in some of the incidents they recruited people consciously aware that they are involved in criminal activity, because of their expertise, they found it difficult to use them, they find it easy to use them. They recruit them and give them political direction and use them because they could see that they have expertise. Chairperson, there's nothing to gainsay that the two applicants were not acting on the day in question on behalf of APLA and that they were instructed by APLA. Chairperson Xhumiso Nongcuba is well-known to the members of the Committee, though unfortunately passed away. As I indicated when his name was mentioned, that he has been mentioned in many incidents and that he has participated in some of the incidents, especially the St James incident, the Golf Club incident and also gave an order to the Heidelberg Tavern incident. There are also of course some various incidents where he was actually involved and also gave an order. He was also a member of the High Command. If one takes into account that it's accepted that Nongcuba was a member of the High Command of APLA and that he gave orders to the applicants to commit the said incident, it's my submission that the applicants have established a political motive for that particular incident and that Chairperson, also that it is clear that they did not do it for personal gain. Chairperson it is also true that the incident happened on the 21st of January and the arms struggle was suspended on the 16th of January by the PAC. Chairperson, I know that the evidence has been led before the Committee and there are many incidents where applicants of APLA have applied. Some of the incidents happened in March. That of course, as Mr Filita testified that there was confusion at that time and that it was testified that it was difficult to disseminate the information and that in terms of their leadership and in terms of chain of Command, they have to wait for their Commanders to tell them that the arms struggle has been suspended. JUDGE MILLER One would have thought that Mr Nazo would have known, being a member of the High Command. I mean he wasn't one of the people who had to wait to be told, yet we hear that on the night of the 20th he's dishing out guns. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson, exactly. I was coming to that point that Nongcuba was member of the High Command. Chairperson it is known that the confusion that ensued was because, in terms of the PAC Congress that took a resolution that the arms struggle be suspended when it's opportune. It gave leadership, it was in December 1993, it gave leadership mandate to suspend the arms struggle when it's opportune and it gave them specific instructions in terms of their resolution that it has to consult widely with the Commanders before that decision is taken and it has transpired that the leadership on its own took the decision without consulting them, that's where the confusion was created. It only consulted with the top echelons, with the Secretary of Defence and they suspended the arms struggle. It is thereafter that they consulted with them. That's where the confusion ensued, Chairperson. Therefore Chairperson, it's my submission that it was not on the part of the combatants that they carried out after the suspension of the arms struggle, but because of the failure to communicate the decision to them, they had to carry on because their Commanders were still giving them orders to carry on. Therefore, Chairperson, it's my submission that the applicants have met all the requirements of the Act and therefore they should be granted amnesty as applied, unless the Committee would like me to address on any other specific point. NO FURTHER ARGUMENT BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair and Honourable Members of the Committee. In the light of Mr Bonakele Filita's evidence, I have no objection to amnesty being granted. CHAIRPERSON You have no objection? MS THABETHE I have no objection. Thank you. NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON ... (inaudible - no microphone) MS THABETHE Indeed Mr Chair, it does. CHAIRPERSON There's only one matter left from the week's roll. MS THABETHE Yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON One which you have no interest in. Well we'd like to thank you for your assistance to us during the hearings this week. Thank you. We will now adjourn till what time tomorrow? MS THABETHE Half past nine. CHAIRPERSON Have we told anybody? What time do they expect? MS THABETHE In the notifications it says 9 o'clock, but I would suggest half past nine. CHAIRPERSON Nine thirty tomorrow morning. MS THABETHE As the Committee pleases. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS