amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-10 THOHOYANDOU 3 WALTER MUDZWIRI AM6678/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54178&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200510th.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, I understand we're starting with incident number 7? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, certainly. CHAIRPERSON And I understand this matter is part heard? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We've already dealt with the applicant Kudzingana? MR MAPOMA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And the appearances are as before? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou? MR NDOU Thank you Honourable Chairperson, Honourable Members, I call Walter Mudzwiri. JUDGE DE JAGER AM 6678/97. INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on, the interpreters cannot hear. CHAIRPERSON Which language would you prefer to use? MR MUDZWIRI Venda. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Have you any objection to taking of the oath? WALTER MUDZWIRI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU Thank you. Mr Mudzwiri, when were you born? MR MUDZWIRI I was born on the 28th March 1969. MR NDOU I see. Now you've made an application for amnesty and your application appears in the bundle of papers on pages 43 right up to page 55(g). Now you've also made an affidavit. Do you confirm that this affidavit is your evidence? MR MUDZWIRI Yes I do confirm. MR NDOU And now could you explain to the Committee as to your role. You've heard what Mr Kudzingana said when he gave evidence. Now could you explain to the Committee as to what you yourself did when the deceased was killed? MR MUDZWIRI Yes I can. MR NDOU Please do so? MR MUDZWIRI On our arrival to the home of the deceased we found the deceased approaching, getting outside of his home with others and when the deceased saw us he returned back to his house and in coming back, he came back holding two bush knives. Then, in realising that he is now already armed, coming to us in the street, prepared to fight us with those bush knives, we realised that we should attack him and make sure that he should not stab anyone with those knives. It's then that the group started to throw stones at him. Then we pelted him with those stones until he lose control, he threw the bush knives down and after throwing those bush knives down, he ran to the kraal and the people were still pelting him with stones and I was also throwing stones because I was in the front. And then he decided to run to the direction of the nearby kraal and we chased him and we were still throwing stones at him. It happened that because the stones were so many the deceased lost control, I think that he was panicking, he fell down. As he was lying down, we continued to pelt him with stones until we realised that he is now so weak. As he was lying down there, a certain person called Albert Dumbani came with a petrol container and he poured the petrol and then he lit him. As he was burning other decided to run away and a certain group still remained, throwing stones, although he was burning. I'm one of the persons who was still throwing stones at him while he was burning. From there I saw my co-accused who is called Ramabulana and he was holding a pick axe or a stick which is used for a pick axe and then he assaulted the deceased at the head. From there I heard the sounds of the cars. What came to my mind is that it was the police. As such I decided to run away and went to my home. That's all. JUDGE DE JAGER What did you want to achieve by killing the deceased? MR MUDZWIRI The deceased was a witch doctor and he was a member of the headman's kraal council. When we look back from 1998 we realised that the Ministers or government officials were involved in ritual killings and such, whatever was that since that man was a member of the council and that he practised witch craft, it means that he is supporting the then government and we realised that it's better if we could finish with him so that the government should also be aware that people like him we don't need them and it means that the people they are relying on will no longer be there. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU CHAIRPERSON Mr Mushasha? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MUSHASHA As it pleases the Chairperson. Mr Mudzwiri, suppose the deceased came out from his kraal unarmed, would you have attacked him? CHAIRPERSON Let me ask him first before that question is answered? Are you opposing the application? MR MUSHASHA Those are my instructions. CHAIRPERSON On what basis? MR MUSHASHA On the basis that the killing by the applicant had nothing to do with the politics of the day. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. Answer the question? MR MUDZWIRI That person that day, we were going to force him to leave the village like others who after hearing that people like them are no longer needed, they decided to leave the village. But the deceased refused to leave and since that he refused to leave, we realised that there were police who used to protect him. Seeing that that person, or the deceased, was supported by the government of the day, our aim of going to his home was to force him to leave but we were aware that he might resist and fight us because police used to protect him. But if he didn't come out with those bush knives and maybe he listened to us, we would have let him go. But now that he showed that he rely on the government, that is why we decided to attack him. MR MUSHASHA So are you saying that the whole reason why you killed the deceased was because he came out armed and resisted ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying they wanted him to leave the area and the reason they wanted him to leave the area is because there was a relationship between him or they thought between him and government officials. When he resisted they killed him, that's what he is saying. MR MUSHASHA I appreciate that. From the position of the victims that killing had nothing to do with the politics of the day. The deceased was not supporting the government of the day, the deceased was not a wizard and ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well, let's take it one by one, Mr Mushasha? MR MUSHASHA Okay, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Firstly, it's being put to you that the killing of the deceased was not connected to politics at all. What do you say about that? MR MUDZWIRI I'm saying that during those days we realised that it was linked with politics because in looking back we realised that government officials were involved in practising witchcraft and the deceased was a member of the council and he was also practising witchcraft and we also realised that he was in favour of the government which was there and which we were not in need of it. CHAIRPERSON Now Mr Mushasha, we've got the answers to all those questions. MR MUSHASHA Okay, thank you. Now I put it to you that what you are now saying when you say the whole intention was to drive away the deceased from the area could not be true in the circumstances, in the light of what you have said in paragraph number 10, wherein you said: "We as the youth stand our attention to the burning of suspected witches and wizards as a further form of destabilising the government of a ...(indistinct) successor, ...(indistinct)." These reasons differs from what you have now offered. What do you say? MR MUDZWIRI Yes it's true. The truth is the people whom we requested to leave our village, if they were resisting then we were forced to burn them and kill them and do away with them. CHAIRPERSON Was that part of the decision that should they resist they would be killed there and then? MR MUDZWIRI Yes, that was part of the decision. MR MUSHASHA The victims would come forward to say that they're not prepared to extend their arm of friendship with you because you have damaged their property, you have deprived them of the company of the most loved relatives at the time. CHAIRPERSON Do you want him to reply to that? MR MUSHASHA To comment. CHAIRPERSON What can he say? If that is their decision, that is their decision? I don't know, do you want to reply to that or can you reply to that? MR MUDZWIRI Yes I can reply, yes I want to reply. What they're saying, I do understand that it's true that what I've done, deprived them, it's very painful to them. I took the life of the person closest to their hearts and to whom they were relying through and the person that they loved so much. I humble myself and I'm feeling sorry for what I've done but it was caused by the situation of that time in the former Venda Government. For now, I'm humbly requesting that even if it would be difficult for them to forget, I'm asking them to forgive me because that was caused by the situation of that time. Let us stay together and to work together and correct the wrongs which apartheid was causing to us. I thank you. MR MUSHASHA I'm sorry, Mr Chairperson, the victim is trying to give me further instructions on the spot. CHAIRPERSON Take the headphones off, it might be easier to hear you. MR MUSHASHA Mr Mudzwiri, on my right seated is a lady. Do you see her? MR MUDZWIRI Yes I do. MR MUSHASHA Do you know her? MR MUDZWIRI Yes I know her. MR MUSHASHA What is her name? MR MUDZWIRI It's ...(indistinct) Mavhandu. MR MUSHASHA What was she to the deceased? MR MUDZWIRI She is the wife of the deceased. MR MUSHASHA On the day of the incident did you see her? MR MUDZWIRI Yes I saw her. MR MUSHASHA She would come forward to say that you are not making a full disclosure of your role of participation in the killing of the deceased. CHAIRPERSON Well tell him what she says he did then? Maybe he'll disagree, maybe he'll agree. MR MUSHASHA Please the Chairperson? She will say that it is not true that it was not Dumbani who doused the deceased with petrol and set him alight. She saw you doing it. MR MUDZWIRI That is not true. Where I saw here it's when I arrived there. She immediately ran away, she didn't stand there on the scene but what is true is what I'm telling you now. MR MUSHASHA I've no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MUSHASHA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Was the deceased's homestead or part of his homestead burnt at all? CHAIRPERSON Or damaged? MR MAPOMA Or damaged? MR MUDZWIRI That is something which I didn't see because people were so many. Others were either in their homes, in their house and then I was in the other place where we were busy stoning the deceased meaning that the other people should remain at the home of the deceased and then other group with which I was with was on the neighbour, not at the home of the deceased. It could have happened. MR MAPOMA Now to your knowledge, I mean you must know, was his house burnt at all by your group? MR MUDZWIRI So when I heard about it from court I heard that the home was burnt, that is from the evidence given by the witness in court, who were the State witnesses. JUDGE DE JAGER How far is this neighbours house where you killed the deceased from the deceased's house? MR MUDZWIRI Approximately 100 metres. JUDGE DE JAGER And you say you couldn't see whether the house is burning? MR MUDZWIRI Yes it's true. During that time there were ...(indistinct) which was so big that I was unable to see that other side. CHAIRPERSON Surely you would have seen smoke rising? MR MUDZWIRI Could you please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON Surely - well, when did this occur, during the night or during the day? MR MUDZWIRI It was in the morning at about 10 o'clock. CHAIRPERSON So surely if it was burning you would be able to see the smoke rising? MR MUDZWIRI I don't know if the people who remained there burnt it or maybe it was burnt after I ran away. CHAIRPERSON That was not the question. The question is could you not see it if it was burning. You say you couldn't because of the mealies. I'm asking you wouldn't you be able to see the smoke then if it was burning? MR MUDZWIRI No, I didn't see the smoke. MR MAPOMA Are you applying for amnesty for arson that took place at the deceased's house? MR MUDZWIRI Yes because by virtue of my presence at the scene, it means all the things which happened it means I was in favour of supporting all that was happening there. JUDGE DE JAGER But you told us you don't know whether there was arson? So how can you apply for amnesty for arson? MR MUDZWIRI It's because I was charged with murder and arson and now what I'm saying is the truth and what I know. Regarding arson, I never participated in that. CHAIRPERSON If those people had to set the deceased's home alight when you were there would you have agreed with it? MR MUDZWIRI Yes I would have agreed with that. CHAIRPERSON And when you went to his house the decision in your mind at that time was that he was going to be asked to leave the area. In the event of him resisting he would be killed, on way or the other, correct? MR MUDZWIRI Yes that is true. CHAIRPERSON And given the experience of such events, did you realise that his property could have been burnt in doing so? When you went there did you know it is possible that his property may also be burnt in the action taken there at this house? MR MUDZWIRI Yes I suspected that anything could happen. CHAIRPERSON Including burning his house? MR MUDZWIRI Yes I did suspect that that could happen. CHAIRPERSON And you associated yourself with that possibility? MR MUDZWIRI Yes. MR MAPOMA Thanks Chairperson. Would you turn to page 43 of the paginated bundle which contains page 1 of your application form? I see on paragraph number 9(a)i where you were asked to state the acts for which acts or omissions or offences for which you seek amnesty, you say, alleged that: "Alleged that I had petrol poured onto the deceased and the house." Would you clarify what you meant here? MR MUDZWIRI Sorry, I'm asking you to indicate to me again that paragraph? May you please repeat your question? MR MAPOMA In this paragraph, when mentioning the acts for which you apply for amnesty you say, I want to quote now what is written here "Alleged that I had petrol poured onto the deceased and the house." Now I want you to clarify what you mean by this? MR MUDZWIRI I was saying or referring to the things I was found guilty in court. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED