amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-10 THOHOYANDOU 3 JUSTICE RAMABULANA AM 6523/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54179&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200510th.htm MR NDOU I'll call Justice Ramabulana. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ramabulana, which language would you want to use? MR RAMABULANA Venda. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any objections to taking the oath? JUSTICE RAMABULANA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU Thank you Mr Chairperson, Honourable Members. Mr Ramabulana, you've made an application for amnesty and there you filed an affidavit appearing on pages 42(a) up to 42(g). Do you correct that this evidence is your evidence? CHAIRPERSON Before you carry on Mr Ndou? I have problems with the drafting of this affidavit. This man, according to his application would be older than many of the other applicants and yet his affidavit is drafted on paragraph 12 on page 42(c) to say "We as the youth" Now what is going on here? Is it as I suggested yesterday that inadvertently these things came off your computer? MR NDOU Well Chairperson, in view of the fact that the interviews with the applicant was done at the same time as a group I will admit that to some extent inadvertently some paragraphs yes. CHAIRPERSON I can understand that, I just want to get clarity and I would want you rather then to point it out to us before the witness or the applicant confirms the contents because issues like that puts him into a corner when in fact if it could be cleared up and if it was an inadvertent bit of information that went on to the affidavit, we can understand that. MR NDOU Okay, I apologise for that Chairperson. We picked up some of those problems and what we're going to do in future like in some of the affidavits where there's a problem, the applicant will indicate those problem areas even before we proceed with it. CHAIRPERSON What future are you talking about? MR NDOU In fact the other applicants who will still come, we have got two or three applicant where the problem with the affidavits, we'll indicate that as they go. CHAIRPERSON Oh, I thought some months ahead of us. MR NDOU Thank you Chairperson. Now you've explained your role on the date in question in this affidavit. Now can you again just explain to the Committee as to what you yourself did when this deceased was killed? MR RAMABULANA Yes. MR NDOU Please do so. MR RAMABULANA On the 6th March 1990 I woke up and went to my workplace. The kind of work I was doing was so small that I managed to knock off early. On my way home I met a group of people. In meeting that group, the group was shouting, calling me to join them. On joining them I questioned them as to why they are calling me to join them and then they said no, we want you, we are going to your home. As we were walking for about 100 metres and then we turned to the home of the deceased, then I realised the deceased was listed as pointed as a person who was practising witchcraft there at their meeting. So it means we were going to the place of Frans Mavhandu. On our arrival he was approaching the gate and he was with other two men. In seeing the group turning to his home, he turned back into his yard and got into the house and in coming out of the house he was holding two bush knives. As he was approaching the crowd, the crowd picked up stones and they decided to stone him or to throw stones at him. Seeing that he was unable to duck the stones he turned back and then he threw down the bush knives and he passed his home and went to another yard and then the group followed him and part of the group took the right direction and then I took the left direction and the others were chasing him from behind. On arriving when they caught up with the deceased, I realised that he was burning by then. On arriving there, people were still pelting him with stones. Somebody gave me a pick axe and then I hit the deceased with that pick axe until it got broken and then I took that pick axe and threw it away. Then I was tired. Then I ran away as if I was going to urinate, then I ran away. CHAIRPERSON Why did you hit the deceased? MR RAMABULANA I hit the deceased because it was said that he must be killed. CHAIRPERSON Did you want to kill him? MR RAMABULANA I was participating or involved in that because it was said that people were alleged to be witchcraft should leave the country and then if they're not leaving the country or the village, should be killed. CHAIRPERSON Did you want to kill him? MR RAMABULANA Yes I was by then prepared to kill him because a decision was taken that each and every person who practised witchcraft who was not leaving the village should be killed. CHAIRPERSON Was this your grandfather's younger brother? MR RAMABULANA Yes that is true. CHAIRPERSON You knew him? MR RAMABULANA Yes I knew him. CHAIRPERSON Did you stay with him or knew him or what? MR RAMABULANA He was staying next door to my father. CHAIRPERSON You say that he practised witchcraft, is that true? MR RAMABULANA I agree. CHAIRPERSON You saw him do that? MR RAMABULANA I once see that from his mother. CHAIRPERSON You once? MR RAMABULANA I first saw that from his mother. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean you first saw it from his mother, how did you do that? MR RAMABULANA His mother was chased away from that village but the chief in 1965 having practised witchcraft. CHAIRPERSON Now why do you say he practised witchcraft? MR RAMABULANA It's because the spokesperson of Mavhandu's family is the people that allegedly said he is responsible for the killing of James Mavhandu. CHAIRPERSON And you believed that? MR RAMABULANA Yes I believed that because it was mentioned by a member of the family. CHAIRPERSON Now at what stage did you change your mind and willingly participate in his killing? MR RAMABULANA It's at the stage when the list was drafted at the meeting heard at the chief's kraal where it was said that people who were practising witchcraft should be killed if they refuse to leave the village. CHAIRPERSON Now in paragraph 25 of your affidavit, page 42(c), you say you were scared and therefore you joined in. I assume you mean you joined into the group because you were scared? MR RAMABULANA Yes, I was scared before I knew where the group was going and I was also scared because they said they are going to my home. CHAIRPERSON I see. Is it correct then that while you were in the group you found out exactly what they were going to do? MR RAMABULANA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is that then when you agreed that you were also going to be party to whatever was going to happen to your grandfather's brother? MR RAMABULANA Yes. Before that I realised that he was listed in the list of the people who practised witchcraft. Then I suspected that they were going to him. It's then that I agreed. CHAIRPERSON Now why was it wrong for him to practise witchcraft? Why was that politically linked? MR RAMABULANA The deceased was a member of the council in the chief's kraal and we were no longer in need of the government which was ruling, we were looking for the re-incorporation into South Africa. Seeing that he was a member and also practising witchcraft, we realised it was better if we could kill him. CHAIRPERSON What did he do for the government? MR RAMABULANA He was a member of the council and the council was under the government. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR NDOU Nothing further, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MUSHASHA Are you a member of any political organisation? MR RAMABULANA Yes, I was a member of the Jiosi Youth Congress by then, now I am a member of the ANC. MR MUSHASHA And when the list of witches was compiled were you present? MR RAMABULANA Yes I was present in the meeting at the chief's kraal. MR MUSHASHA Did you agree with the names that were listed that those people were wizards or witches? MR RAMABULANA Yes I agreed with them. MR MUSHASHA Did you also agree that they should be driven away from the area? MR RAMABULANA Yes I did. MR MUSHASHA Did the government which was in power - what method did it apply to oppress people? MR RAMABULANA Could you please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON Mr Mushasha, is this a history test? Is this a history test? MR MUSHASHA It's what? CHAIRPERSON Is this a history test? We all know how the previous government oppressed people. MR MUSHASHA We know, such as ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well what is the purpose of the question? MR MUSHASHA The purpose of the question is to, I just want to confirm with him if it's indeed true that he linked the actions with the governing powers. CHAIRPERSON Well why don't we ask him then how does he do that? What does he think thereon? MR MUSHASHA It was a stepping stone to - it was establishing whether witchcraft had anything to do with the then authorities. CHAIRPERSON Well proceed. I didn't follow it like that but anyway, carry on. MR MUSHASHA Maybe I'll just come directly to it. Do you think witchcraft, witchcraft which you though prevailed at the time, had anything to do with the oppression by the governing authorities? If so, why? MR RAMABULANA Yes. MR MUSHASHA How? MR RAMABULANA Because people who were in government used medicine in all ways possible and these people were practising witchcraft in the 1979 and back it was said that in the past if they were alleged to have committed, they have practised witchcraft they used to go to the council and be tried as to whether they practised witchcraft but in the middle, after this new government, after 1979, the government decided to protect the people who practised witchcraft. MR MUSHASHA What you did to the accused, was it only to chop him with a pick? MR RAMABULANA The only thing which I managed to do is hitting him by that pick axe. MR MUSHASHA Not burn his property? MR RAMABULANA I've heard about that, that there was arson there, but I was assaulted on the same day and I saw a truck standing there and there was property outside there and they were loading that property on that truck and they were leaving the place. MR MUSHASHA Do a know a woman who is seated next to me on my right? MR RAMABULANA Yes, she's my grandmother. MR MUSHASHA She would say that she was present when this incident occurred. She actually saw you burning the deceased's property. That is the hut and his clothes. MR RAMABULANA I'm not sure there because immediately when I left, after assaulting the deceased, I saw her at the room of Mr Magwaru, together with the wife of this Mr Magwaru. MR MUSHASHA So are you not applying amnesty ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, she said she saw you burning the house and the clothes. Did you do it or didn't you do it? MR RAMABULANA I don't know that. MR MUSHASHA Are you not applying amnesty also in respect of the burning of the deceased's clothes and the house? MR RAMABULANA I'm applying amnesty to that effect because in court I was alleged to have committed that. MR MUSHASHA Now why do you do it when you claim not to have done it? MR RAMABULANA Seeing that the wife of the deceased is seeing it like that while I don't know about it, it means we will keep on making arguments. Whereas what I'm relating here is not accepted. CHAIRPERSON When you went there to that house you knew that the house could be damaged, isn't it? It was possible for the house to be damaged in whatever action occurred? MR RAMABULANA It's only when if the deceased didn't want to leave the village that you could be killed and then the property could also be dealt the same way. CHAIRPERSON So on your way there you didn't know whether he was going to refuse or not? It was possible that his house would be damaged, isn't it? If he resisted? MR RAMABULANA Yes it's true. CHAIRPERSON What did you mean in your application form on page 9(a)i by saying "While the crowd was attacking the deceased I burnt clothings from his house." It's page 34, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMABULANA This is where my legal advisor told me that because I'm accused number one I must also participate or I must also be involved in this and my legal advisor advised me to accept this and I accepted this while it was not in my mind. JUDGE DE JAGER Surely I can't think that your legal advisor would advise you to come and say under oath that you've burnt the clothes if you didn't burn it? MR RAMABULANA I'm not referring to the legal advisor I'm with here, I'm referring to the legal advisor who was sitting in court while I was sentenced. CHAIRPERSON Why does this allegation or possible admission appear in your application? MR RAMABULANA It's because what a person has done cannot forget. CHAIRPERSON Why did you put it in your - look, have a look at paragraph 9(a)i on page 34. Have a look at it? It states there" "While the crowd was attacking the deceased I burnt clothing from his house." You make application for murder and arson and all that and you don't mention those things, you mention the burning of this clothes and yet you say that never occurred. Why? MR RAMABULANA So I apologised for that, I wasn't aware of that. CHAIRPERSON I'm asking why it's there? Are you telling us the truth or not? MR RAMABULANA It means the clothes which were burnt were not clothes which were separated. It was a bundle but I was not sure if the content of that bundle was his. JUDGE DE JAGER But you burnt the bundle? CHAIRPERSON You burnt the bundle? MR RAMABULANA Yes that is the bundle I burnt, yes. CHAIRPERSON Why are we struggling to get an admission that has been put to you on more than one occasion? MR RAMABULANA I thought the question was referring to the fact that I get into the house and burnt the clothes inside the house. CHAIRPERSON What did you mean then? Where did this bundle come from because here in your application it says "burnt clothing from his house"? MR RAMABULANA The bundle was from the bath. CHAIRPERSON From the? MR RAMABULANA Bath. CHAIRPERSON Bathroom outside? MR RAMABULANA No, the bath. The one we used - you can even take it out and wash yourself or your clothes from outside. Yes, that was outside. CHAIRPERSON Oh, okay. Now tell me, that meeting where the list of names of the witches were composed or compiled, when did that meeting take place? MR RAMABULANA That date was on Sunday but I don't remember the date. CHAIRPERSON It's not on the same day this incident occurred? MR RAMABULANA No, that was not on the same day. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Mushasha? MR MUSHASHA I have no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MUSHASHA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Who completed this amnesty application of yours which appears on page 34 of this bundle? MR RAMABULANA It's my legal advisor or attorney. MR MAPOMA When was that? MR RAMABULANA I do not understand your question? MR MAPOMA My question is, do you see page 34 of this paginated bundle? MR RAMABULANA Yes. MR MAPOMA On that page there appears the first page of the application form that you complete when you apply for amnesty. Now what I want to find out from you, who completed this amnesty application form, is it yourself or somebody on your behalf? MR RAMABULANA It's myself. MR MAPOMA How did you do that? MR RAMABULANA I don't understand, do you want me to say whether I wrote it or what? MR MAPOMA Yes, that's what I want to find out from you. This is typed, this is typewritten. What I want to find out who typewrote this? MR RAMABULANA It's my legal advisor. MR MAPOMA When was that? MR RAMABULANA I can't quite remember the date but that was when I was in jail. MR MAPOMA I've no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA MR NDOU Nothing further. ADV SIGODI I want to clarify something with you about this list of people. You say that you were present when this list was drafted, did I hear you correctly? MR RAMABULANA Yes I was present. ADV SIGODI And when this list was drafted was your grandfather's and the brother's name also mentioned? MR RAMABULANA Yes it was also mentioned. ADV SIGODI And when was this meeting held when this list was drafted? MR RAMABULANA That was 1989. ADV SIGODI Now was it - no, but this incident took place March 1990? MR RAMABULANA Yes it's true. ADV SIGODI Now I mean in relation to this particular incident when the people decided, when the Youth Congress decided that they were going to get rid of the people who were undesirable in the village, was there a meeting where the list was drafted shortly before then or on that very same day? MR RAMABULANA The meeting was held before the deceased was killed. ADV SIGODI When? Same day or a day before? MR RAMABULANA Days before. ADV SIGODI So why do you say that you were scared when - actually, I'll refer you to paragraph 24 and 25 "The people in the group shouted for me to join it. I wanted to know as to where I was going to go and the group said to me that they were going to my home." And then you go on to say: "As I was scared I joined in. I then realised that they were proceeding to the deceased's kraal and I then came to realise where the property initially say that they were going to my home because the deceased was my grandfather's younger brother." The impression one gets is that you didn't know where they were going to? Why is that? MR RAMABULANA Yes it's true. It's because the day before the deceased was killed I didn't attend the meeting because we were unable to go there during the night because during the night we found him being protected by the police. By then I was not aware that we were going during the day. ADV SIGODI I didn't get the answer? During the night what happened? MR RAMABULANA They were afraid that during the night the deceased was protected by the police and then in the meeting in which they decided to go during the day I was not aware that they were now going there during the day, that is why I was not knowing where they were going because they first agreed that they would do that during the night. ADV SIGODI I see. JUDGE DE JAGER I'm not quite satisfied with the answer you've given us. You remember when you were asked by the advocate "Do you know the lady sitting next to me?" You said "Yes." and then he put it to you: "Your grandmother saw you burning the clothes and the house." and you replied: "No, I didn't." Why didn't you admit that you burnt the clothes, at least? Why didn't you tell us the truth? MR RAMABULANA It's because I thought she said I get inside the house and burnt the clothes which were inside the house, that it where I refused, I didn't get inside the house. JUDGE DE JAGER Well why didn't you say I burnt it outside the house. Why didn't you tell us you've burnt the clothes? The previous one said he didn't even see smoke? Now we learnt that you in fact burnt the clothes? Why didn't you tell us that? MR RAMABULANA But I heard about it but I didn't understand the question properly. JUDGE DE JAGER But you needn't be asked about it, it was your duty to tell us the truth, from the beginning. Why didn't you tell us the truth? It had to be dragged out of you after it's been pointed to you that it appears in your application? What else haven't you told us as far as this is concerned? Did the house burn? MR RAMABULANA It might have burnt but I'm not sure because I didn't burn it. Maybe my co-applicant burnt it. JUDGE DE JAGER Have you been in the vicinity, it's next to you, the next day. Did you see the house has been burnt? MR RAMABULANA Because I was arrested on the very same day. As I was going with the police we stopped there at - what I saw is a truck standing there with clothes which were outside and they were loading the clothes on that truck. That is what I saw. JUDGE DE JAGER Was the house still intact then or was it burnt already? MR RAMABULANA There were people who were destroying it. JUDGE DE JAGER Burning it? MR RAMABULANA No, they were removing the corrugated iron and they were loading them in the truck. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. You are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED