amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-10 THOHOYANDOU 3 MALUTA SIMON MATSHISEVHE AM720697 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54180&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200510th.htm MR NDOU I now call Mr Matshisevhe. CHAIRPERSON Mr Matshisevhe, what language would you wish to use? MR MATSHISEVHE Venda. MALUTA SIMON MATSHISEVHE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Matshisevhe, you are applying for amnesty. When were you born? MR MATSHISEVHE I was born on the 24th September 1968. MR NDOU Yes, you filed an affidavit with the Committee. Have you read the affidavit? MR MATSHISEVHE Yes I know it. MR NDOU And do you confirm that that is your evidence? MR MATSHISEVHE Yes I confirm. MR NDOU Now could you explain to the Committee, we've already heard from the previous applicants that the deceased was attacked on a particular day. Now what role did you play on that particular day? MR MATSHISEVHE I will start my evidence from the meeting when these things started from the dam. When we left the dam the decision was already taken that we are going to the home of the deceased to tell him to leave the village. On our arrival we met the deceased with two men, two other men. It's then that the deceased went back to the yard and then he came back holding two bush knives and seemed to be intending to fight us. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, is this applicant another one of the deceased's grandnephews? MR MATSHISEVHE I can't remember, but they're fairly closely related altogether. CHAIRPERSON Because 24 it says that ...(intervention) MR NDOU Paragraph? CHAIRPERSON 24, page 33(d), that the deceased was his grandfather's younger brother? MR NDOU I think page 24 relates to the previous applicant. CHAIRPERSON I'm talking about 33(d) MR NDOU 33(d)? What paragraph was that? CHAIRPERSON 24. MR NDOU I think there's a problem with the number. JUDGE DE JAGER (d), not (b). MR NDOU It seems like we've got a similar problem. Yes, unfortunately I got him to look at the affidavit and he pointed back and said well there's not problem with it, Chairperson. JUDGE DE JAGER Carry on. MR NDOU Let me just try to establish from him. Are you i any way connected to the deceased? MR MATSHISEVHE Yes. MR NDOU What is the deceased to you? MR MATSHISEVHE It's my uncle. MR NDOU Okay, in fact it appears that that paragraph 24 belongs to the previous applicant's affidavit so may we apply that that be expunged from the affidavit? Thank you. Okay, now I've asked you as to what role you played on the day in question in the killing of the deceased? MR MATSHISEVHE On arriving at the deceased's home, seeing that he was about to fight us, then we threw stones at the deceased and then the deceased went back and then I saw him standing behind the house. It's then that we started to assault him and then he jumped the fence and then he went to the home of his younger brother and then we were storming him and I was so close, I was also pelting him with stones and then we went to another yard. On our arrival to the third yard and then I assaulted the deceased with a stone at the back and then he fell down. It's then that this Buti poured petrol on the deceased and then he was lighted by this Buti. MR NDOU I see. On page 19 of your application, paragraph 9(a), you indicate that, this is what you say "I was there. I did nothing. It is said that I threw stones." What did you mean by that? MR MATSHISEVHE Of the stones I was throwing of course there was one stone which hit him. MR NDOU No, but in your paragraph 9(a) you say you did nothing but it is said that "I threw stones", did you throw stones or not? MR MATSHISEVHE I threw stones. CHAIRPERSON Why did you say you didn't? MR MATSHISEVHE I think that is a mistake. CHAIRPERSON How can it be a mistake? What kind of a mistake is it? You clearly say you did not do anything but it is said you threw stones? MR MATSHISEVHE Yes, the truth is that I did throw stones. CHAIRPERSON I know, we're not talking about the truth now, we're talking about what's contained in your application? Have you got any explanation? Isn't it true ...(intervention) MR MATSHISEVHE In my affidavit I wrote that I threw stones. CHAIRPERSON You're avoiding the question. Answer the question. I'm not stupid, I can read what you said in your affidavit. I'm asking what you meant as your advocate has asked what you meant in your application, you said you did nothing but it's said that you threw stones? MR MATSHISEVHE No, I'm unable to understand this but what I wrote is this that I did throw stones. CHAIRPERSON You are unable to understand what I'm asking you, is that what you're saying? MR MATSHISEVHE Yes I may be unable to understand that, I won't deny that. CHAIRPERSON Look at your application, paragraph 9(a). Can you read it? It says "I was there, I did nothing. It is said that I threw stones." Now that is there, it can't be misunderstood. Now I'm asking why did you say that in your application? Which part of that question don't you understand? JUDGE DE JAGER Perhaps to make it easier, why did you lie in your application? MR MATSHISEVHE What I wrote in my affidavit, so now I'm unable to understand that but I think that I wrote that I threw stones, that was part of what I included in my application. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, have you got his original application with you? MR MAPOMA No I do not have, Chairperson, but yes I can just say I don't have it. We'll have to find out from Cape Town office. CHAIRPERSON Did you fill in the application yourself? MR MATSHISEVHE Yes we did write this thing and hand it to our legal advisor. CHAIRPERSON What language did you use when you filled it in? MR MATSHISEVHE I used Venda. CHAIRPERSON And can you remember what you said, what you wrote there when you filled it in, that paragraph, when you were asked for what acts are you applying? MR MATSHISEVHE I think I wrote relating the whole story what happened there. CHAIRPERSON Carry on Mr Ndou. MR NDOU Apart from throwing stones did you do anything else at the scene? MR MATSHISEVHE Yes, after - in fact no, after throwing stones there's nothing which I did after that. MR NDOU That is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MUSHASHA Thank you Mr Chairperson. Do you know the woman sitting next to me on my right? MR MATSHISEVHE Yes I know her. MR MUSHASHA She says she saw you throwing stones during this incident. She also saw you participating in the burning of the house. What do you say? MR MATSHISEVHE I disagree with that. MR MUSHASHA Who is Buti? CHAIRPERSON Before you carry on, what does she mean by participating in the burning of the house? Any specific act that he committed? MR MUSHASHA Can I establish precisely what she means? CHAIRPERSON Because it may be by common purpose. MR MUSHASHA She will say that when she says you participated in the burning of the house you were the one who was collecting the clothes altogether and Chikudo set them alight. JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, before answering could we have that clear? He collected the clothes. Was the clothes used to set alight the house or what, was the clothes a separate item being burnt separately and the house lit by somebody separately? Could we have clarify about that? MR MUSHASHA As it pleases the Chairperson. I'll again try and get clarity on that. May I Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR MUSHASHA Indeed so Mr Chairperson, but ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Proceed, we're not going to argue. MR MUSHASHA Mr Chairperson, it's not easy, not easy to get clarity on this point but what I gather from the ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Okay put what you ...(inaudible) to the witness. MR MUSHASHA That's right. She saw you putting together the clothes after which Chikudo set him alight and because you entered the house of the deceased after she saw it ablaze, she presumed that you participated in the burning of the house? CHAIRPERSON Well there you have the answer, he says he didn't? MR MUSHASHA I wanted just to complete that question. Now this Buti, is Buti one and the same person as Tambani? MR MATSHISEVHE Yes it is. MR MUSHASHA Why did you decide to kill the deceased? MR MATSHISEVHE It is because the deceased was associated with the witchcraft activities. MR MUSHASHA And if the deceased was a wizard, how would that be connected with the political climate of the day? MR MATSHISEVHE Well there is connection because the deceased was a member of the council, the tribal council in the local area and as such, as far as we were concerned we deemed it fit to link the two things, political issues and the tribal council issues. MR MUSHASHA My instructions are that you did not kill the deceased for purposes of any political gain but now you did so out of sheer jealousy and maybe to settle old scores with him? CHAIRPERSON Is that true? MR MATSHISEVHE No, surely that is not true. CHAIRPERSON Any more questions? MR MAPOMA No further questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA I've no questions Chairperson. MR NDOU Nothing further Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED