amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-10 THOHOYANDOU 3 AZWINNDINI CEDRIC MULOVHEDZI AM7668/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54182&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200510th.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, what matter have we got next? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, it is incident number 8. The applicant is Azwinndini Cedric Mulovhedzi. Mr van Rensburg is acting for the victims in that matter and Mr Ndou for the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Mr van Rensburg, there's a matter of a list of names and addresses of victims in a previous matter. Is that ready? MR VAN RENSBURG Perhaps you can just enlighten me specifically which one we're talking about? CHAIRPERSON I don't know why you're under the impression that I'm supposed to collect the list from you? Maybe it's not you? MR VAN RENSBURG I wasn't requested for a list. As far as I can remember we have given the information and postal addresses verbally. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mulovhedzi, what language would you want to use? MR MULOVHEDZI Venda. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objections to the taking of the oath? AZWINNDINI CEDRIC MULOVHEDZI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU Thank you Mr Chairperson, Honourable Members. Mr Mulovhedzi, you've made an application for amnesty. When were you born? MR MULOVHEDZI On the 10th October 1963. MR NDOU Now you're presently serving a prison sentence of 23 years in respect of the death of Selina Ralulimi, the attempted murder of Khwatheleni Nemadandila and the arson at Selina Ralulimi's kraal as well as assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm on Frans Mafulane and also one of arson on his kraal. Is that correct? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes that is correct. MR NDOU Now can you explain to the Committee as to how it came about that you committed these offences? CHAIRPERSON Tell us what he's applying for? MR MULOVHEDZI I'm asking for amnesty in respect to assault, arson and attempted murder. I assaulted Mafulane. CHAIRPERSON Spell. MR MULOVHEDZI M-A-F-U-L-A-N-E. CHAIRPERSON That's assault and then? MR MULOVHEDZI And arson, I burnt his houses. CHAIRPERSON Whose houses? MR MULOVHEDZI The houses belonging to Mafulane. CHAIRPERSON How many of them? MR MULOVHEDZI I think three of them if I still remember well. CHAIRPERSON Yes, what else? MR MULOVHEDZI And attempted murder. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR MULOVHEDZI And arson again. CHAIRPERSON Attempted murder of you? MR MULOVHEDZI Khwatheleni Nemandandila. CHAIRPERSON Spell please? MR MULOVHEDZI K for Khwatheleni and then the surname is N-E-M-A-D-A-N-D-I-L-A. CHAIRPERSON Nemadandile? MR MULOVHEDZI Nemandandila - L-A. CHAIRPERSON L-A, okay. Attempted murder of that person and what else? MR MULOVHEDZI And murder. CHAIRPERSON You said another arson, in respect of what? MR MULOVHEDZI It's here in the home of Khwatheleni Nemadandila. CHAIRPERSON Only one building? MR MULOVHEDZI Two rondawels. CHAIRPERSON Anything else? You said murder? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes, including murder. CHAIRPERSON Of whom? MR MULOVHEDZI Selina Ralulimi. CHAIRPERSON Spell that? MR MULOVHEDZI S for Selina and then the surname is R-A-L-U-L-I-M-I. CHAIRPERSON So it's assault, arson of 3 rondawels, Mafulane's house, attempted murder, arson of a home, two rondawels of Nemadandila, then the murder of Selina Ralulimi? Okay, proceed. MR NDOU How did it come about that you committed these offences? MR MULOVHEDZI In 1990 ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How many - what about arson, are you not making application for arson in respect of Selina's house? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes, it's in the same household. MR MUSHASHA Excuse me Chairperson, I note that he makes no mention of murder of Ms Dianeche Vumbe, I don't know what the position is regarding that one? MR NDOU He was never at the scene of that murder. In fact his co-applicant, Mamelodi who withdrew the application was the one who was involved in the other murder. CHAIRPERSON Are you satisfied that he has covered everything? MR NDOU Yes, I'm quite satisfied. Now how did it come about that you committed all these offences? MR MULOVHEDZI This came about after a meeting that we held discussing the witches in the community who had to be removed. During that meeting the community people were invited and they gathered at the kraal. On enquiry we realised that Mr Mafulane admitted that he was a wizard. On admission he also did not want to relocate because he was not the only one who was involved in witchcraft. Therefore he mentioned some of the co-witchcraft practising people, the meeting adjourned and people dispersed. After deciding that the other people who were mentioned by Mafulane should be invited. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, did you know Sharon Masinga? MR MULOVHEDZI I've heard about her. CHAIRPERSON And James Mavena? MR MULOVHEDZI I also heard about him. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR MULOVHEDZI After that it was decided that another meeting shall ensue. On the following week the meeting was held. It was on the 4th February and the community people were invited as before. As we had gathered there, police vans arrived. There were so many police people who dispersed us because they didn't want us to have a meeting. We then dispersed after which before arriving at our respective houses and homes we decided to have another meeting in the evening. Of all the people who were involved, elderly people, we agreed that it was going to be a joint meeting between elderly people and young people. It was not particularly in a group, it was on individual basis. We could not tell every other person. After that we had a meeting in the evening. The chairperson that day was Mr Sediki, we resolved that or decided that the alleged witchcraft participating people should be relocated or removed and they had to be killed. We decided on that. We went past another house, I can't recall vividly, we were discussing about the witchcraft participating people. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but what was decided about them? MR MULOVHEDZI We said that seeing that police people did not want us to hold meetings in order to solve the problems around the community, we had to eliminate the people who were participating in witchcraft because the government of the day seemed to be in support of those people. CHAIRPERSON Which people was to be eliminated? MR MULOVHEDZI Mr Masithi. CHAIRPERSON Why? Why were those people meant to be eliminated? MR MULOVHEDZI Because they were the ones who were pointed by Mr Mafulane who confirmed that he could not move along because there were other people who were practising such. That is why Mr Mafulane said that Mr Masithi, Mr Ralulimi and Mr Mbatabata were also involved and there were several other people whom I cannot remember. CHAIRPERSON Let me just understand you nicely, are you saying that this decision at this meeting was to eliminate those practising witchcraft who refused to move from the area? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And that was a decision at the meeting? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes, that was the decision at the meeting. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR NDOU Yes, you can proceed? MR MULOVHEDZI We then dispersed. We asked for petrol in a certain household, I can't remember which household. They gave us petrol and we also picked some sticks and went to the other side. As we were standing there we were deciding on the targetted houses because there were several houses, so we had to sub-divide ourselves. I was leading the other group which went to the house concerned. On arriving there at Mafulane's household I went in and the other people went to the other household, differently. CHAIRPERSON How big was the group that you went with? MR MULOVHEDZI Approximately 600 to 700 people. CHAIRPERSON Your small group that went to look. Who were elected and nominated to go to ...(intervention) MR MULOVHEDZI My group had almost 200 people. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR MULOVHEDZI At arriving at Mafulane's household I knocked. After knocking they did not want to come out. I took out the matchbox and lit. As the other people were knocking the owner was forced to come out. When he came out the people were already waiting for him and they were beginning to just attack him or assault him. I was already next to the person, I was also beating or assaulting, using sticks and he escaped. After escaping, he went behind the house or behind the field. He disappeared and we could not see where he went to. CHAIRPERSON How did you beat him? MR MULOVHEDZI I was using the stick, beating him on the back but I don't know what really happened as to the escape of the men as we do not know how it happened that he managed to escape because I was also there, I was also beating. And then he went for good and disappeared. JUDGE DE JAGER You've never seen him since? MR MULOVHEDZI Could you repeat the question please? JUDGE DE JAGER Have you ever seen him since, is he still alive or what happened to him? MR MULOVHEDZI No, we didn't kill this person, I eventually met the person in court after I had been arrested. JUDGE DE JAGER So he was back in court again, is that right? Mr Mafulane? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes I saw him court because we didn't find him. JUDGE DE JAGER So he wasn't killed and he escaped amongst the 200 of you, you couldn't hold him? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, when you went there to him you intended to kill him? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes we intended to kill him. CHAIRPERSON So really what you've applying for in respect of Mafulane's matter is attempted murder? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes but precisely I was charged for assault. CHAIRPERSON I'm not talking about what you were charged for. MR MULOVHEDZI Okay. Yes, exactly, it's as you've mentioned. CHAIRPERSON When did that occur, what date, do you remember? MR MULOVHEDZI On the 4th February. CHAIRPERSON 19..? MR MULOVHEDZI 1990. CHAIRPERSON Good. Okay? MR NDOU Yes, you can proceed? MR MULOVHEDZI On completion, after his disappearance, as we had decided with the other groups on completion we had to reconvene on the ground. The group that I was leading went straight to the ground. However, there were not so many people who reappeared and we decided to make sure that everybody doesn't have to sleep at home because it was likely that the police may arrive because a lot of police vans were moving up and down. After that we were arrested eventually. It was after several months that I was arrested, I can't remember how many months. MR NDOU Yes that's find, then what happened? MR MULOVHEDZI As I was working in town when one time I was at home, after arriving home, I was talking to my other friends, I delayed arriving at home and on arrival around 10, I can't know exactly what time, I saw somebody was naked at the gate. I watched as I was driving. When I reversed, my car was on bright, and that person disappeared. After I'd seen who the person was. That person was at the house where the person was staying because it was next to my place. MR NDOU And when was that? MR MULOVHEDZI That was 1993. MR NDOU And at that stage had you already finalised your first murder when you were arrested for the incident at Mafulane's kraal? MR MULOVHEDZI No, I was still awaiting trial. MR NDOU I see and then when you saw this figure? MR MULOVHEDZI I reversed my car. On reversing I saw the person up to the stage where the person went to the house. I was just not so far when I decided to, seeing that I realised that it was a personal attack and I was a leader of Mpego's community, seeing the idea was to bewitch me because I was a leader. When I was discussing with my friends as to what could be done, I told them that we had to eliminate the person. That is when we decided to ask for petrol and when we went back to the meeting place, the other people were out of their household, they did not want to get in. They did not want to get through the household but I told them to watch. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, why did you kill Selina? MR MULOVHEDZI It's because she was a witchcraft practising person, according to me. CHAIRPERSON Why was she a threat to you, what did she want to do, why did you kill her? MR MULOVHEDZI According to culture, African culture, we believe that if you meet somebody naked during the night, that person is deemed to be a witch. If you meet that person personally, nothing will prosper in your life, you are endangered because it may happen that at one time you may not explain what really happened as to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON So you killed her for cultural reasons? MR MULOVHEDZI No. CHAIRPERSON You were scared because you met someone naked in your yard? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes because I know that a person in that situation is a witch or is a wizard. CHAIRPERSON And you feared that she will cast a spell on you? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes, truly speaking. CHAIRPERSON Now you also apply for the attempted murder of Mr Khwatheleni Nemadandila? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Was that a man or a woman? MR MULOVHEDZI A woman. It's a woman. CHAIRPERSON Why did you kill her? Sorry, why did you want to kill her? MR MULOVHEDZI It's because they were two arriving from the house after we had burnt the house then I could not identify who Selina was because they were following each other and then there was a narrow passage and I could not see clearly. CHAIRPERSON And so you killed the second one who turned out to be Khwatheleni Nemadandila? MR MULOVHEDZI Selina. CHAIRPERSON Yes you killed Selina and as I understand your evidence the other one was running away with Selina. You killed Selina and you attempted the other one because why? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes, truly it didn't happen that way. JUDGE DE JAGER You've mistaken the other one. You've first attacked her because you thought it was Selina, is that right? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes it is true. JUDGE DE JAGER Then you realised it wasn't Selina and you turned around and you got Selina and you killed her? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes it is true. ADV SIGODI And tell me, what was the relationship between this other person and Selina? What was the relationship between ...(intervention) MR MULOVHEDZI The other one was a child to Selina. ADV SIGODI Thank you. MR NDOU Yes, you can proceed? MR MULOVHEDZI I went in and the other people ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I'm confused now, what was this child's name? MR MULOVHEDZI Khwatheleni Nemadandila. CHAIRPERSON And you burnt two of her houses also, her rondawels? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes, it's the same household. CHAIRPERSON Yes and in respect of murder of Selina you also make application for arson in the same household, so there are three rondawels that you burnt? No, two rondawels. CHAIRPERSON One each? One of Selina and one of? MR MULOVHEDZI The other one was used as a kitchen. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but it belonged to - who did it belong to? MR MULOVHEDZI It belonged to Selina, she's the owner of the household. CHAIRPERSON So in that incident where you attempted to kill Khwatheleni and where you did kill Selina, you also make application for arson in respect of two rondawels? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Good, then I understand now. When did you burn those two houses or those two rondawels, at the same time? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes at the same time of killing Selina. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, when you stabbed her, that is Selina, did she have clothes on? MR MULOVHEDZI Just the underwear. CHAIRPERSON I see. As if she was sleeping and got up? MR MULOVHEDZI It means just that, just like that. CHAIRPERSON And you attempted to kill Khwatheleni by accident? By mistake? MR MULOVHEDZI Yes, just like that. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, are there any other questions you've got? MR NDOU I do not wish to take this any further, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU CHAIRPERSON Mr van Rensburg, maybe you can confine your cross-examination, if you've got any, to Mafulane? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG Thank you Mr Chairperson. Regarding that specific incident, I have actually no questions, there's actually - may I just get some directions from you? On the previous bundle there was also an incident included, the murder of Mrs Masithi and now I see that it has not been included this ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON One of two things is the representative quite satisfied that he has covered all his applications? It may also be that Mrs Masithi's incident refer to the other applicant that was withdrawn. I'm not too sure what the correct position is but if this is what the man has applied for, then so be it. MR VAN RENSBURG Then I've got only one question then. Mr Mulovhedzi, are you - have you ever been convicted of the murder of Mrs Masithi? MR MULOVHEDZI No, not me. MR VAN RENSBURG I have no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA I have no questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou? MR NDOU I have nothing further, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr van Rensburg, have you got any witnesses? MR VAN RENSBURG No witnesses to call. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No witnesses to call Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is that the evidence, Mr Ndou? MR NDOU That is the evidence, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any submissions on this matter? MR NDOU No, Honourable Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we don't need the submissions of anybody else. Well that's the end of that matter.