amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-10 THOHOYANDOU 3 MUTSHUTSHU SAMEL MAGORO AM2714/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54183&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200510th.htm CHAIRPERSON The next matter? MR NDOU Would the Chairperson just bear with me? I just want to make sure that the two people are right here. JUDGE DE JAGER ...(inaudible) sitting next to you, is he concerned about the first incident of Mafulane or is he involved in the - as an interested person in the other matter of Selina? MR VAN RENSBURG Actually in none of the two, he was the son of the deceased in the matter Masithi that I've referred to. I've just had to explain to him why his case was not called and I explained to him that that relates to another applicant which application has been withdrawn. The other victim ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He seems to be satisfied with that, yes. Who do we proceed with now? Eleven? Mr Ndou, I just want to confirm, the applications of Mr Maseru and Mr Ntimane have been withdrawn? MR NDOU That is so. CHAIRPERSON Now we are left with the applications of Mr Magoro and Baloyi? MR NDOU Yes. It's Magoro and Baloyi. CHAIRPERSON Is this matter part heard? MR NDOU It is not part heard. CHAIRPERSON By the way it's the one ...(inaudible) MR NDOU Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you receive a report about Mr Baloyi? MR NDOU Like I indicated earlier on Honourable Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I had spoken to the doctor, Dr Tshabalala who was the district psychiatrist for the area but since he has left his job here, but this week when I spoke to Mr Baloyi, he indicated that he feels fine and he will be able to handle it. The only problem that we had is that he is still in prison and when we finish here he goes back to prison and then we cannot write his affidavit but when I spoke to him it seems like he'll be able to cope with the situation. JUDGE DE JAGER He is present here today? MR NDOU Yes he is present. CHAIRPERSON Who are you calling now? MR NDOU I'm calling Mr Magoro. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Magoro, what language would you prefer to use? MR MAGORO Venda. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objections to the taking of the oath? MUTSHUTSHU SAMUEL MAGORO (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU Thank you Chairperson. Mr Magoro ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER There's an indictment on page 39 in respect of which offences is he applying for amnesty. Count one is the murder of Maduwa? MR NDOU That is correct. JUDGE DE JAGER Is he applying for amnesty? MR NDOU That is so. JUDGE DE JAGER Count two, is arson of a property, Maduwa's property. Count three, is arson to the property of Maimela. Count four, arson to the property of Thovhala. Count five, assault on Shua Mulimu and count six, assault and arson - no, and trying to burn with a tyre of Thovhala. Is he applying for all six? MR NDOU What he indicated to me was that he was applying for the murder of Maduwa and the arson committed at the kraals of Petrus Maimela, Thovhala and Maduwa as well, as set out in paragraph 5. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, is this a lot to show, it should have been but have all these people been informed? MR MAPOMA You mean the applicants Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON The victims. MR MAPOMA I will have to verify that, Chairperson, regarding other persons other than Maduwa. The person I'm sure is relating to Maduwa. CHAIRPERSON You see, Mr Ndou, I'm not too sure whether he can apply for all of those things because on page 4 of his amnesty application, he makes application in terms of 9(a)i for murder and arson on the 21st March 1990, at Maduwa, and if you go to 9(c), there's the names of the victims, Nyamavholisa Maduwa, 37 Maduwa or 87 Maduwa, whatever and that's all he makes application for and therefore it is understandable that only those people would have been informed as victims. I don't know if you can now add applications to that? MR NDOU Thank you Chairperson. What happened was, when we adjourned in December, Mrs Patel asked me to draw up a full list of the victims, which I did and sent it through to her so that she could be able to get in touch with them. CHAIRPERSON No, I accept that but even if you mentioned those victims, the point of the matter is that the application doesn't include those others. Is that not so? Would you agree? MR NDOU Yes. CHAIRPERSON So his application would be restricted to the murder of Mr Maduwa and arson in respect of his property. Those were different incidents, there wasn't charges arising out of the same incident? MR NDOU But they were dealt with at the same time. CHAIRPERSON I know that but if you go to place A and you commit a crime there and thereafter you go to place B, that's another incident? MR NDOU Yes. CHAIRPERSON If all these occurred at place A there may be a case to argue that they all fall under the same incident but if they happened at different places then in my view they would constitute different applications. JUDGE DE JAGER Mr van Rensburg, are you appearing for victims? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I can confirm that there are two other victims that have been brought to the Committee but I must also confirm that it is my instructions to exactly take that point that the Chairperson has raised, that the application can actually not be heard for those persons as well, the other two arsons that we're talking about as well as a GBH and another assault, yes. JUDGE DE JAGER The case he is referring to, the prosecution under Case number 36/97 for murder and arson, the date of the sentence, if applicable, the 3rd June. Life sentence changed to 20 years after appeal. Wasn't all the incidents taken together for the sake of sentence or are they running together? MR VAN RENSBURG Mr Chairperson, I've got no further information regarding that, I doubt it if all the sentences could actually be taken together in those specific circumstances. Perhaps we can find out from the applicant? JUDGE DE JAGER 8 years imprisonment. What was his sentence, Mr Ndou? Life sentence? MR NDOU It was initially life sentence which was later changed to 20 years. JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Ntimane was sentenced to eight years. INTERPRETER Could you repeat that please? CHAIRPERSON Did you do that appeal? MR NDOU I didn't do the appeal, I did the trial. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER The mike is not on. MR NDOU I only learnt from him that later on there was an appeal when he got 20 years when I looked at the forms. CHAIRPERSON What I'm trying to establish is if it was ruled that all the sentences run concurrently to the 20 years or what? MR NDOU He says that all he could remember was that the sentence initially were running concurrently and then he says he then he wrote a jail appeal and then the sentence was reduced to 20 years and I assume the sentence was running concurrently as well. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, if these sentences are running concurrently, what would he have got for the arson and attempted murder and whatever? MR NDOU I think at that stage the sentences were running between two and three years for arson charges. CHAIRPERSON He would have served that already? MR NDOU He would have served that. So he's been there from 1993. CHAIRPERSON 1992. MR NDOU 1992, yes. JUDGE DE JAGER On page 9, in respect of count one, that's the murder, imprisonment for life. On count two, that's arson, three is arson and four is arson. It gives the sentence to 18 months on each of these counts and on count five, that is common assault to 14 days imprisonment. The sentence to run concurrently. CHAIRPERSON Can we just adjourn for five minutes? We'll adjourn for five minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, do you think it's still advisable to proceed with the balance of the application? MR NDOU When I look at it in view of the fact of the periods to which he had been sentenced, I would think that it's so. CHAIRPERSON Are you wanting to withdraw it or do you want to talk to him first? MR NDOU Chairperson, are you referring to the other? Yes, I could quickly just speak to him. That is fine, that's settled. We'll only proceed in respect of the murder and the arson attack at Maduwa's kraal. CHAIRPERSON Is he under oath already? MR NDOU He is. CHAIRPERSON Proceed then. MR NDOU Now I've already indicated that you are proceeding in respect of the murder of Nyanavhikusa Maduwa and the arson attack. Will you explain to the Committee as to how this came about? MR MAGORO Yes I can. MR NDOU Please do so? MR MAGORO On the 21st March I was coming from Miela together with my brother, my elder brother in fact. On arriving to our village it was at about 7 o'clock. On arrival to our village, while we were in the middle of the village, while we were left with maybe six homes to reach our own home, we met a group of people. On arriving to that group, they interceded us, myself and my elder brother and they informed us they've got something they want to talk with us and they informed us that "today we are going to burn all the witches or the people who practise witchcraft" and they said they've already talked about it in the meeting and in the headman's kraal and they intended to perform that act the very same day. We questioned them as to whether they informed the headman. They said when they were intending to inform the headman, then in turn the headman called the police and then the police informed them by the ...(indistinct) and they informed me that they are prepared to burn those people who practise witchcraft the very same day and they said they were well armed with everything, petrol and everything. Then I decided to join them and asked them what were they fighting for and then they said it's because the government is not leading them properly and then we have informed our traditional leader and that he seemed to be against it and there is nothing we can do and I agreed to join them. And my brother or my elder brother said no, he doesn't understand that properly. Then I tried to convince him and then I advised him that this, we are telling him something that will help us in the future because of this government. And my brother said no, he doesn't understand that and then I explained to him that I do accept these things. So we left, we went to Petrus Maimela's place. There we were about 50. Petrus Maimela's home ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well, let's get to Maduwa's. MR NDOU At the ...(indistinct) too. MR MAGORO On our way to Maduwa's place - but we first got other kraals before we could arrive there at Maduwa's place. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we are aware of that now. All we're interested in is Maduwa's incident. MR MAGORO Oh, thank you. I understand that. Then on arriving to Nyanavhikusa's place, Nyanavhikusa - no, in fact someone amongst us said no, this Nyanavhikusa is a person who practised witchcraft and I said how did he know that she practised witchcraft and they said no, we already have a list and she's also on the list. CHAIRPERSON So did you accept that? You believed it? MR MAGORO I believed that she practised witchcraft because I'm a citizen of that village. On entering that house we were about 150. We saw this lady sitting on the veranda. MR NDOU Okay, apparently there's a problem with the interpretation. ...(indistinct) is a daughter-in-law. INTERPRETER Thank you. MR MAGORO We saw the daughter-in-law there and we asked that daughter-in-law to get inside the house and that daughter-in-law gets inside the hut and Nyanavhikusa was sitting in her kitchen with her child and she was a woman and then the child of Nyanavhikusa ran away and as she was running Mr Temani sprinkled her paraffin in the kitchen - where the petrol in the kitchen where the lady was sitting and when that lady ran away, I realised that she was already burning and then she ran away and then she ran into the mealie fields and then she jumped the fence and then I realised she was far away and then I turned back and went back to the lapa and then I jumped the fence trying to follow that old lady and the group was already running behind her. When I went to the street I realised that the lady was lying down and the people were assaulting her and interrogating her and by then she was unable to talk when I arrived at the scene. On arriving there the group said no, this lady is not prepared to tell us the truth and on arriving there I took a stick and then I said I wanted to participate and then I took a stick and hit her, I think three times. From there, as we were still planning to go to other places, the police vans arrived and then we ran away and then I went to my home. That's all. MR NDOU That is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU JUDGE DE JAGER Was the old lady set on fire? Did she burn? MR MAGORO Yes, the flame, she ran away from the hut. I think as she was jumping the fence I think the flame went off and then it caught the grasses but seemingly the fire caught her again but I think petrol was poured again on her but I was far away, I'm not sure if petrol was poured to her again. CHAIRPERSON But you know she was burnt? MR MAGORO Yes I know that. CHAIRPERSON And when you hit her what was her condition? MR MAGORO Could you please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON When you were hitting her, what was her condition? MR MAGORO By the time I hit her she was so weak and I think I hit her when she was already dead because she was no longer speaking and on the very same time there were so many people assaulting her. CHAIRPERSON Was she still burning when you hit her? MR MAGORO Yes she was burning and the fire caught the grasses and then the fire was on and she was sleeping in the middle of the fire. CHAIRPERSON You're confusing me now. In your affidavit you say she rolled and rolled and the flames died out. She was then physically attacked, with an assault with the weapons? MR MAGORO No, I'm not disputing that. I said when she get out of the hut, she went to the field and she passed close to me and I realised that I was unable to catch her because she was burning. So as she was running to the direction of the yard, I realised that she was far from me, then I turned back so that I can find her on the other direction. I took the gate direction and then she was far from me so I heard that the fire was off when she jumped the fence but because the grasses were on and her clothes were still having petrol, then I think the fire attacked her again. It's then that I arrived there and on my arrival she was lying down and unable to speak and I just participated in assaulting and I suspect she was already dead. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Ndou? MR NDOU That is so. CHAIRPERSON We'll take the lunch adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MUTSHUTSHU SAMUEL MAGORO (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) what sounded honestly, that he'd produce those lists by one o'clock, by now by my time he's got two minutes left. MR VAN RENSBURG Mr Chairperson, I notice that the legal representative for the applicant is not present so I don't think he'll appreciate me proceeding in his absence. JUDGE DE JAGER Well we'll appreciate you proceeding. CHAIRPERSON That's his fault. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG Thank you Mr Chairperson. Okay, Mr Magoro, tell us, that night when you met the people there in your village, where were you coming from? MR MAGORO From Hamayela. MR VAN RENSBURG Why didn't you attend that meeting that they held before you arrived in the village? MR MAGORO Could you please repeat your question? MR VAN RENSBURG Why were you not present at that meeting? MR MAGORO I left that village early in the morning and I came back in the evening. MR VAN RENSBURG So you didn't even know about the meeting, is that correct? MR MAGORO Yes, I was not aware. MR VAN RENSBURG What was your political involvement, before that specific day, in the community? MR MAGORO Sometimes when I come from the Reef, I used to attend the meetings from the headman's kraal. Normally when I come back from the Reef I sometimes attended these meetings. MR VAN RENSBURG At those meetings, was the position of the witches and the influence of the witches ever discussed? MR MAGORO Yes in the meetings held in the headman's kraal it was said that they're regarding the people who practise witchcraft, we must collect money so that we can go to the bone throwers so that we can establish people who are committing these witchcraft issues. MR VAN RENSBURG So there was nothing political regarding the witches discussed on the other meetings you had attended, is that correct? MR MAGORO Sometimes the political issues were discussed because we were not in favour of the government of the day which was oppressing us because as I'm saying that we used to collect money for nothing and we collected monies and money was used for nothing. MR VAN RENSBURG When you met this group of people in the street after the meeting, who was the person who gave you information regarding the meeting itself? MR MAGORO It's Soul Ndo, but now he has passed away. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes and what exactly did he tell you about the meeting earlier the day? MR MAGORO In explaining he said - you mean by the time I immediately joined the people? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR MAGORO He explained that they held a meeting in the afternoon. Yesterday we were from the headman and we were assaulted severely and that is why today we are deciding to burn the witches because the headman didn't accept our grievances. MR VAN RENSBURG Okay, but was it explained to you why the witches should be burnt? MR MAGORO Yes it was explained to me. MR VAN RENSBURG Please tell us what was explained to you? MR MAGORO I was told that there was this money which we once collected in the previous month with the promise that we will go to the bone throwers and nothing has happened and now we tried to go to the headman to talk about the fact that people are being killed and we have already collected money and the headman, there at Thoyhoyandou suppresses the issue and when we went to the chief and then the chief called the police and soldiers and they were beaten and that is why they decided to kill those people who practised witchcraft. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, but I still can't make the connection between the witches and the political meeting as it was explained to you when you met the people in the street. Can you explain that to us or how did you understand it, at least? MR MAGORO As far as I'm concerned, I agreed that during the time of 1990 that the issue of burning witches was linked with politics because that, in my life I've never expressed those things and I can see that the burning of witches was in line with the political atmosphere of the time. MR VAN RENSBURG No, my question relates to what was explained to you when you met the people in the street? What was explained to you regarding the witches and their political involvement when you met the people in the street? JUDGE DE JAGER What did Soul Ndou tell you, why should the witches be burnt? MR MAGORO Because those witches take medicine and give it to the people in the highest office in the government so that they could remain intact, their place and then they cannot be removed. As I've explained, then we used to collect money and the money was used for nothing and they used to buy cars with the money we've collected. MR VAN RENSBURG What was the money supposed to be used for? MR MAGORO The money was supposed to be used to go to the bone throwers so that we can find out who are the witches so that they can be evicted or made to leave that village. CHAIRPERSON And if that didn't happen? If those witches refused to go? MR MAGORO That is why we turned to the resolution of burning them because we released that even the chief is collaborating with the people who are practising witchcraft. MR VAN RENSBURG Okay, now if you knew that the chief was collaborating with the forces of the government, why did you ask if they have already gone to the chief to get his permission to chase or kill the witches? MR MAGORO Could you please repeat your question? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, armed with this knowledge that the chief is actually on the side of the government forces, why did you then ask the people there, when you met them in the street, if they have already gone to the chief? MR MAGORO Could you please repeat your question? I'm unable to understand your question. MR VAN RENSBURG Okay, I'll repeat it. After you've now talked to the people in the street and they informed you, they'd given you certain information and also knowing that the chief is not on your side but on the government's side, why did you then ask if the people had already been to the chief? MR MAGORO On that day I was not aware as to whether they took which decision on that day because I only knew that they were once beaten from the headman's kraal. On that day I was not aware or of what was happening. MR VAN RENSBURG But why did you want to know that information if they had been to the chief? MR MAGORO But the moment I met them I was not aware but I know of the things which happened in the past and that is why I wanted to know because when they went to the headman's kraal I was not there but it's only then that they explained to me that they went to the chief to enquire about the money they've collected and then the chief called the police and soldiers and the youth were beaten and that is why I also accepted joining them, when they decided to do what they told me they were about to do. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. I'll leave that there. Did Mr Soul Ndou or any of the other people that went to the meeting, did they give you the names of the witches? MR MAGORO Yes they gave me those names. MR VAN RENSBURG Who gave you those names? MR MAGORO It's Soul Ndo. MR VAN RENSBURG And what did he say? What names did he give you? MR MAGORO The names were Petrus Maimela, Thovhala and Nyamayholisa and others, I cannot remember that very well but I think - no, I can't remember that other people. The names of other two people but I now have forgotten their names. MR VAN RENSBURG And did you know that when you joined that party that these people that were mentioned that were going to be killed? MR MAGORO As they have explained, yes I was aware of anything which could happen saying that I will stand for anything which would happen. MR VAN RENSBURG And why did your brother refuse to go with? MR MAGORO To my own understanding I thought my brother was collaborating with the previous government which was oppressing us, that is according to my own observation. MR VAN RENSBURG Okay, now tell me something about the deceased. Did you know her before that incident? MR MAGORO Yes I knew the deceased before the incident. MR VAN RENSBURG How did you know her, can you for instance tell us how - did she support herself and the family? MR MAGORO Regarding how she supported her family I'm not sure but I know that her child was responsible for supporting her because her husband has already passed away. MR VAN RENSBURG So are you saying that at the time of the killing of the deceased her husband had already passed away? Do I understand you correctly? MR MAGORO What are you referring to? MR VAN RENSBURG I'm referring to the husband of the deceased. MR MAGORO You say you're referring to the husband of the deceased? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, the question is, at the time when the deceased was killed, was the husband already dead or what was the position? MR MAGORO He was already dead. MR VAN RENSBURG Okay, now when you eventually arrived there on the scene and the deceased was killed, can you explain to us, why did you hit her with a stick? MR MAGORO Well I saw that everybody else was beating then everybody was participating. It was necessary that when we were supposed to be arrested, we'll say it was a joint venture. MR VAN RENSBURG So the reason why you hit her was so that you can all stand together before the law, is that correct, and not any single person? MR MAGORO Yes. MR VAN RENSBURG Is there any other reasons why you hit her? MR MAGORO No, other than that she was a witch, there's nothing else. MR VAN RENSBURG Now tell us about that. Why did you hit her because she was a witch? MR MAGORO All the witchcraft participating people had to be killed at the time because they were not supportive of what we were doing. MR VAN RENSBURG And that explanation that you now have given explains all the action what you have taken that specific day, is that correct? MR MAGORO Yes it is true. CHAIRPERSON Tell me when you went into her house, who started that fire? MR MAGORO I explained from the beginning that when I arrived I stood next to the door and the child came out quickly and ran way and then only she was left in the house. ...(indistinct) poured petrol when she was seated by the fire and the flame just went straight to her and that is how she got burnt. CHAIRPERSON Was the house burnt? MR MAGORO No. CHAIRPERSON So why are you applying for arson? MR MAGORO Because we killed this person. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but arson isn't killing? MR MAGORO Yes, it is killing. CHAIRPERSON So you don't know anything about the burning of the house? MR MAGORO I haven't witnessed that, I only know that the flame caught her and other ...(indistinct) were on the other side, at a higher level, it's not in a place that was a little lower. CHAIRPERSON Carry on? MR VAN RENSBURG Now if it was your intention that day and that you have excepted that it was the mission of this group to go and kill the witches, why is it that you on the same day also assaulted David Singa Bulimu and also threatened to assault another Makwabela Duvala? MR MAGORO Could you please repeat that question? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, if it was your mission because now of political objectives to go and kill the witches and to burn them, why did you also assault these other two persons on that day? MR MAGORO If all these people were found it will be saying that today four people would have been involved, if we had found all of them. MR VAN RENSBURG Just repeat the answer? I don't understand that answer? MR MAGORO What I am saying is, just because on that day there was list. If all the people were found, the ones who were targetted, we would have been associated with four murder cases. MR VAN RENSBURG That's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the other two assaults that you were convicted for. Why did you assault those people if it is true that your mission was to burn the witches and to kill the witches for political reasons on that day. MR MAGORO Who are these two people that you are referring to? MR VAN RENSBURG I've already mentioned their names. They are the persons mentioned in count five and count six for which you were convicted for. That is David Singa Bulimu and Makwabela Duvala? MR MAGORO Could I just explain that I am not talking about that, I am particularly referring to Maduwa's case. CHAIRPERSON No but the attorney is referring to that. Why did you go attack those other people? Let's put it this way, did you attack the other people? MR MAGORO Who are these that you are referring to. CHAIRPERSON Petrus Maimela, Thovhala and let me just get the charge sheet here? Yes, those two. MR MAGORO May I explain something to the Committee? I believe you said we must suspend the other side. We are now dealing with the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Magoro, don't be smart. MR MAGORO Okay. Could you repeat that? CHAIRPERSON Answer the question because the attorney wants to find out on what basis you were doing everything you were doing that day? MR MAGORO Are you referring to Petrus' case? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MAGORO We were 50 when we went to Petrus' household. CHAIRPERSON I didn't ask - I'm asking you, no never mind what the attorney - I'm asking you, why was Petrus attacked? MR MAGORO We couldn't find Petrus so he wasn't beaten. CHAIRPERSON Why was his house attacked? MR MAGORO Because he was not found when the house was burnt. CHAIRPERSON Yes but why - if he was there what would have happened to him? MR MAGORO He could have been killed. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR MAGORO Because he was on the hit list for those witchcraft practising people. CHAIRPERSON And Andries? MR MAGORO He too. It was decided that he too would be killed if found. CHAIRPERSON And David? MR MAGORO He was beaten while we were asking him to the whereabouts of Petrus. CHAIRPERSON And Makawarela? MR MAGORO Makawarela who? CHAIRPERSON Duvala. MR MAGORO That person was not beaten. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, the last person who was not beaten, but you also threatened to set her alight with petrol and a tyre, that's what I want to know, why did you do that? MR MAGORO I haven't seen a tyre. CHAIRPERSON Did you threaten her? MR MAGORO Who are you referring to now? CHAIRPERSON Makawarela. MR MAGORO She had a baby on her back, she just left peacefully. CHAIRPERSON Did you threaten her? MR MAGORO No. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr van Rensburg? MR VAN RENSBURG I put it to you Mr Magoro that the reason why you were found guilty of count five and six, that's the assault on these other people who were not on the list is exactly the same reason why you killed the deceased. Namely, that you were on a murderous spree to kill witches and it had nothing to do with political motive at all? MR MAGORO If I don't know if it doesn't have any bearing or link but I think it had. MR VAN RENSBURG No further questions, thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Magoro, can I just confirm this with you? In your locality there was no political organisation, is that correct? MR MAGORO My brother, I cannot explain exactly. Could you repeat the question clearly? MR MAPOMA I put it to you that in your locality there was no political organisation operating there? MR MAGORO Yes there was a political organisation. It was just an organisation which was operating underground. MR MAPOMA What organisation was that? MR MAGORO I think it was Maduwa Congress, I'm not too sure about it now. MR MAPOMA You were not a member of that, were you? MR MAGORO No, I was not a member. MR MAPOMA Then how could you know an underground political organisation which you were not even a member of? MR MAGORO Well, that was an organisation for young boys and we were elderly people at the time. I wasn't aware that the youth had their own particular organisation. MR MAPOMA Yes, so you can't say there was a political organisation when you were not aware of that? MR MAGORO Well there was a youth organisation. MR MAPOMA As I understand it, it was just a group under which community members, not a political organisation? MR MAGORO Well as I go back now, I think there were political situations because such things never used to occur in the past. MR MAPOMA Even in your affidavit you make no mention of a political organisation from your locality at the time? MR MAGORO Well there was a youth organisation. MR MAPOMA I have no further questions, Chairperson, thanks. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA JUDGE DE JAGER When you attacked these people, did you in your own mind think you're enhancing the cause of a political party and you act in support of a party or organisation? MR MAGORO Well in my view the government of the day had to collapse so that we will go back to that government. JUDGE DE JAGER Okay, you were against the government of the day so you acted against the government. But who did you support? MR MAGORO Well I favoured ANC. Well I, personally, yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes and did you, when you acted like that, thought that you're acting on behalf of or in support of the ANC? MR MAGORO Well we thought that if the government had collapsed there will be a new ANC government as it is currently, just to move away from the old apartheid government. MR NDOU I have nothing further. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED