amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-10 THOHOYANDOU 3 SALANI PHILLEMON BALOYI AM2534/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54184&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200510th.htm MR NDOU I call Salani Phillemon Baloyi. CHAIRPERSON Mr Baloyi, what language would you choose? MR BALOYI I'm going to use Venda. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objections to the taking of the oath? SALANI PHILLEMON BALOYI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU Thank you Chairperson. Mr Baloyi, you've filled in a form in terms of which you are applying for amnesty, is that right? MR BALOYI Yes. MR NDOU In respect of whose murder are you applying for amnesty? MR BALOYI In respect of Nyanavhikusa. MR NDOU And then we also heard from the previous witness that arson was also committed at Nyanavhikusa's kraal? Are you aware of that? MR BALOYI Yes I'm aware but when it happened I wasn't there, I hadn't appeared at the time. CHAIRPERSON What arson are you talking about Mr Ndou? Which arson are you talking about? MR BALOYI At Maduwa's kraal. CHAIRPERSON Well your previous client said there was no fire. MR NDOU Yes I heard him saying that if you look at the applications and the evidence in court it shows that there was an arson so that's why I wanted to find out from him. CHAIRPERSON Well it may have been committed by somebody else? MR NDOU Okay thank you. So you are applying for amnesty in respect of the murder of Nyanavhikusa Maduwa, is that correct? MR BALOYI Yes it is. MR NDOU Now can you explain to the Committee as to what role you played on the day in question? MR BALOYI I hit her with a stick and also threw stones at her. Those are the things that I did. MR NDOU I think that is all. JUDGE DE JAGER Why did you want to kill her? MR BALOYI Because she was a witch. CHAIRPERSON And so, what was wrong with being a witch? MR BALOYI We were killing her just for that reason. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR BALOYI For being a witch. CHAIRPERSON Is that all? MR BALOYI And also that our organisation used to kill witches which were operating locally. MR NDOU I don't think I can take it further than that. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU MR VAN RENSBURG No questions Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG MR MAPOMA No questions Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Baloyi, what did the witches do wrong that you should kill them? MR BALOYI Because many people were dying and the youth see people who were dying, these were associated with the witchcraft participating people and so they should not live. I'm referring to my local area in Tebela. JUDGE DE JAGER Did the witches have anything to do with politics? MR BALOYI They would take medicine and send it to high officials. JUDGE DE JAGER How do you know that? MR BALOYI Because our organisation - I've already explained, it was explained like that. CHAIRPERSON Did you believe it when you were told? MR BALOYI I believed it because I could witness people dying. JUDGE DE JAGER Mr van Rensburg, if you want to ask questions flowing from my questions, or questions of the Chairperson? MR VAN RENSBURG No, I have no further questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is there anything further Mr Ndou? MR NDOU No further evidence, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr van der Merwe? MR VAN RENSBURG Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I believe that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I'm terribly sorry. MR VAN RENSBURG It's been a long day. Thank you Mr Chairperson. I believe, Mr Chairperson that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Now before you carry on, are you going to call any witnesses? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, pardon, I've got no witnesses to call. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA I've no witnesses, Chairperson. Yes Mr van Rensburg? MR VAN RENSBURG IN ARGUMENT Thank you Mr Chairperson. I believe that the second applicant in this specific instance actually in his simplicity is telling the truth. These people were killing the witches because there were some explained deaths in the community. That's what the meeting was about and that is why the witches were killed. Having said that, I have to argue that the second applicant, Mr Baloyi, definitely does not meet the requirements set by the Act in order to qualify for amnesty. The fact that the witches took medicines to the officials does not constitute a political motive to kill the witches, not even by a long stretch of the imagination and I would submit that in view of the evidence of the second applicant, we can now explain why the first applicant, Mr Magoro, had such a problem trying to make this link. Obviously, Mr Magoro is a much more intelligent person than the second applicant and yet he still had the problem explaining what exactly the political link was with the killing of the witches and I submit that the evidence of the two applicants taken in total is enough to argue that there was actually no political motive involved and therefore these two applicants should not qualify for amnesty as applied for. NO FURTHER ARGUMENT BY MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, what do you want to submit? MR NDOU IN ARGUMENT In all honesty, Chairperson, I wish to leave it in the court's hands. When I look at the evidence of the two applicants, although one may say that they are not of such high intelligence, but I want to submit that from the evidence that was led by Mr Magoro, it is quite evident that there was a body of some sort in the area and that this group of people were intent on killing witches and as evidence by what the applicant has told us ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well let's assume that we accept that. MR NDOU Yes. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) on dealing with the witnesses -with the witches. Mr van Rensburg has argued that even if that was so, there's no political linkage with that and all this was an anti-witch campaign for reasons other than political. What do you say about that? MR NDOU Thank you Chairperson. I do not agree with that submission. My submission is that if one looks at the totality of the facts as they occurred, it seems that this group, the youth at the time, they were fighting the Venda Government and where they were all set out to see to it ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Where is that evidence that the youth was set out to destroy the Venda Government of the day? Where is that in the evidence? MR NDOU But if one looks at the affidavit by Mr Magoro, he does indicate that from what he learnt from the people that when he spoke to them, they told him that they are set all out to try and dissolve the problems and again if you look at his affidavit, he indicated that the deceased was a pedi headman, a pedi headman's wife ...(intervention) INTERPRETER Could you repeat what you said Mr Ndou? MR NDOU Yes and so they were in a position of authority and that whenever they took problems to the pedi headman, the pedi headman was supposed to take the matters to the chief. But the pedi headman and the chief appeared not because they were in collaboration of the government, the things were not moving properly and the people remained dissatisfied. Now coupled with the fact that it was generally believed that she practised witchcraft and the fact that she occupied a position of authority within the community and when one looks at the atmosphere that prevailed at the time, one will quickly come to the conclusion that in view of the fact of what was happening in the whole of Venda at the time, that the group was set out to kill the wizards coupled with a political motive. JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Ndou, wasn't her husband dead? MR NDOU Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER ...(inaudible) he might have been a headman before but according to what was put here, he was dead at the time, deceased? MR NDOU Let me come into that, if I may - had a pedi headman or herdman and if the head of the kraal dies, because the institution is in the family and it's not vested in a person, that authority will still continue because people will continue bringing their problems to my family which means in this particular case, after the death of her husband, she's now occupied that position as pedi headman of the area until such time that another pedi headman would be appointed. ADV SIGODI Yes but would she also carry the same burden or carry the same conviction of supporting that government. Was there any evidence that she supported the government and not for instance the ANC? MR NDOU Yes from his evidence he indicated that they were being made to collect monies with the intention that certain things would be done but the monies were used for other purposes and nothing could come right. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes but did they hand the money to her? MR NDOU Yes, ...(inaudible) what happens is that the money will go through the pedi headman who will take the money to the chief. JUDGE DE JAGER There was no evidence at all before us that they handed any money to her to take to the chief? MR NDOU Maybe there was a problem of interpretation, he did indicate that they were collecting monies and that nothing was happening. CHAIRPERSON No, but that was in context of why he had a problem with the governmental authority, not to the deceased? MR NDOU That's why I say in the circumstances it will still be my submission though that I think this is one of those cases that would qualify for amnesty and I wouldn't want to take this any further. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma have you got any submissions? MR MAPOMA No Chairperson, I've no submissions. CHAIRPERSON Well that brings an end to that hearing. What's the next one?