amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-11 MIDDELBURG 3 JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI AM474/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54187&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200511mi.htm CHAIRPERSON For the record, it is Thursday the 11th of May 2000. It is the continuation of the sitting of the Amnesty Committee at Middelburg. The Panel is constituted as would appear from the record of the proceedings thus far. We will hear the following applications this morning: that of July Mabhoko Mtsweni, amnesty reference AM474/96, Speelman Ernest Mtsweni, amnesty reference AM4300/96, Johannes Jabulani Mahlangu, amnesty reference AM7461/97, Phillip Mfulatwelwa Mtsweni, amnesty reference, AM313/96 and Charles Michael Skosana, amnesty reference, AM650/96. I am going to first get the legal representatives to put themselves on record, on behalf of the applicants. MR RICHARD Thank you Mr Chairperson, my name is Tony Richard, I represent all five applicants listed a moment ago. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. On behalf of the interested parties, the victims? MR MOKOENA Thank you Chairperson, Frank Mokoena on behalf of the victims. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mokoena. And then the leader of evidence? MS MTANGA I am Luluma Mtanga, the Evidence Leader, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Yes, Mr Richard? MR RICHARD I am ready to proceed and I call July Mabhoko Mtsweni who is prepared to take the oath. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mtsweni, please stand to take the oath. You are July Mabhoko Mtsweni? MR MTSWENI That is correct. JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Richard? EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mtsweni, the incident to which your application for amnesty happened during January 1991. At that stage were you a member or a supporter of any political party? MR MTSWENI Yes I was a member or a supporter of a political organisation. MR RICHARD Which one was it? MR MTSWENI I was the supporter of the ANC. MR RICHARD When you use the word "supporter", how did you show your support for the ANC? MR MTSWENI Everything we did, was for our organisation and we had leaders in the organisation. We were given instructions to do certain things. INTERPRETER Pardon Mr Chairperson, there seems to be a problem with the receiver. CHAIRPERSON Yes, in fact I gathered that there must be something going on, because the two of you are speaking together, at the same time. Could somebody just attend to that, just attend to the Interpreters, just see what the problem is. Will you indicate when it is sorted out? INTERPRETER Chairperson, it seems that he will deliver his evidence in Zulu, not Sotho. Yes, it is Zulu, channel 4 and Sotho, channel 3. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Would you be able to handle that, Interpreters? INTERPRETER Yes. CHAIRPERSON All right, very well. Sorry Mr Richard, we seem to have settled this question. Would you proceed? MR RICHARD Thank you Chair. My last question was you say you were a supporter of the African National Congress, my question was how did you show your support for this organisation and what did you do in support of it? MR MTSWENI We had leaders in the ANC organisation and we were followers. We used to receive instructions from these leaders of the ANC. MR RICHARD Who were your leaders in your situation? MR MTSWENI The first one was Skosh and Skosh is his nickname, his real name is Jan Nkabinde. MR RICHARD Were there any others? MR MTSWENI The other one was Scwadi Sibego. MR RICHARD Thank you. Did you participate in any protests, marches, boycotts, similar activities? MR MTSWENI I used to attend meetings whenever I was at home, because I used to stay at work where I was working, so I wasn't all the time at home. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now, in your application for amnesty at page 2 of the bundle, you claim amnesty for the killing of Emma Mtsweni. What relationship was there if any, between you and Emma Mtsweni? MR MTSWENI She was one of my family relatives. She was an old lady. MR RICHARD In what way was she related to your father or your mother? MR MTSWENI She was my distant grandmother. She wasn't my blood grandmother. It is because of the surnames, I am not sure as how related we are, but I do know that we are related. MR RICHARD Now at page 2 of the bundle, paragraph 4 there is a question which asks you to provide the nature and particulars and the first sentence, to read it out the translation that you wrote was "... this was a family discussion and it was upon my grandma". Would you please tell us what the discussion was about and what you meant by that? MR MTSWENI Would you please repeat your question? MR RICHARD At page 2 of the bundle, which is the second page of your application for amnesty, where you filled in the form to provide nature and particulars of the act for which you are applying for amnesty, you started by saying and I quote "... this was a family discussion and it was upon my grandmother." Now, my question is, what was the discussion about concerning your grandmother? MR MTSWENI I will explain it this way. My father and my mother passed away. After they deceased, my grandmother came at home and she said to us we allegedly accused her of killing our parents and we asked her who told her that and she said to us we knew who we told. We told her that we know nothing of that. She left. After a day we received a letter that came from a chief. MR RICHARD Just stop there. Let me just get clarity, am I correct in understanding your answer to be that Emma Mtsweni came to your home and confronted you with the statement that you had made allegations that she had caused the death of your parents? She confronted you with that allegation, is that what I understand, correctly? MR MTSWENI Yes, that is correct. It was Emma. MR RICHARD And then your reply was you knew nothing about what she was talking about and you asked her from whom had she heard that report or that allegation, am I right? MR MTSWENI Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD And then you were telling us the next day you received a letter from a chief. What was that chief's name? MR MTSWENI We received a letter from Mabhogo, the name of the chief is Mabhogo. MR RICHARD Thank you and what did that letter ask or tell you to do? MR MTSWENI They told us to come before the chief. MR RICHARD Did it give you a date and a time and a place that you had to come before the chief? MR MTSWENI Yes, there was a date on that letter, even though I cannot remember, but there was a date and it was on that letter, and we did go on that particular date to the chief. MR SIBANYONI Excuse me, for which area is this chief Mabhogo you are referring to, where is his kraal? MR MTSWENI kwaNdebele. There was another chief who reported to the other chief, in other words the one was junior and we went to the senior one in Mabhogo in Kameelrivier. MR RICHARD For the sake of clarity I will ask the following, all that we described that happened in your application, happened near and at a place called Pieterskraal, where is Pieterskraal? MR MTSWENI It is an area where I was residing. MR RICHARD What is the nearest major centre to Pieterskraal? MR MTSWENI The nearby city or town I think it is Pretoria or Groblersdal. MR RICHARD How far from Groblersdal is Pieterskraal? MR MTSWENI I am not sure of the two distances, but I think Groblersdal is nearer than Pretoria. MR RICHARD Is Pieterskraal a rural area? MR MTSWENI No, it is not a town, it is a rural area. MR RICHARD And is it an area where you still have Traditional Leaders, chiefs and sub-chiefs? MR MTSWENI Yes, during my arrest it was like that, but I have been in prison since 1992. When I left it was like that, I don't know, because there have been changes, probably it is no longer the same. I wouldn't say it is still like that, because the government has changed. It may probably have changed, but this is how I left it. MR RICHARD Now, who was the senior chief in that area at the time? MR MTSWENI Mabhogo. MR RICHARD And now is it not from him that you received this summons or letter asking you to appear before him? MR MTSWENI Yes, the first letter we received, it was from him. MR RICHARD Did you go to the meeting, and if so, who else was at the meeting? MR MTSWENI Yes, we did go to the meeting. It was myself and my sister. MR RICHARD Your sister's name is? MR MTSWENI Anna. MR RICHARD Now ... MR MTSWENI And my brother as well was present, Kleinboy Mtsweni. MR RICHARD And who else if any? MR MTSWENI There was Mtsweni families, uncles and also the deceased was present, together with her children. MR RICHARD What are her children's names? MR MTSWENI The one that I remember very well is Makololo and one Leah and the other daughters, but I don't remember their names. MR RICHARD Sarah, does that ... MR MTSWENI Yes, and Sarah as well. MR RICHARD Now, what did the chief explain to you as to why he called you to the meeting? MR MTSWENI He did explain to us that he had called us because we had accused my grandmother that she was bewitched and we did ask the chief as to who told my grandmother and my grandmother didn't have an answer to that question. They requested her to tell them who had told her, and she refused and then the chief decided that we should go back and discuss this as a family. We left, we went back home. As we were leaving, it was said that we were supposed to meet and it was decided that we were going to meet at Mashiane, who was a junior chief in the area. MR RICHARD Now, this meeting with Mr Mashiane, was that the meeting where you were supposed to discuss the problems as a family or was there another meeting as well? MR MTSWENI It was a meeting where we were supposed to discuss the very same problem which we went to see the senior chief. MR RICHARD Now, tell me, when you met with chief Mashiane, what happened there? MR MTSWENI We met at chief Mashiane's kraal, it was discussed but no solution came forth. Eventually we were told that we were supposed to go and see a ngaka or a sangoma and the name of that sangoma is Makuduza. MR RICHARD Why did you need to go and see a sangoma? MR MTSWENI The way it was discussed, it was concluded that probably the sangoma will help us resolve this, he will help us to clarify this matter. MR RICHARD Would the sangoma have been asked the question as to whether Ms Emma Mtsweni or not, was a moloi or whether he could identify who was making the allegation against Mrs Emma Mtsweni? MR MTSWENI Would you please repeat your question. MR RICHARD I will phrase it differently, would the sangoma be asked the question is Emma Mtsweni a witch or would he be asked the question who is accusing Emma Mtsweni of being a witch? MR MTSWENI We went there to find out who was accusing Emma of being a witch. MR RICHARD Now when you went to see this (indistinct), this sangoma, did Emma go with you? MR MTSWENI We had agreed upon a certain date to go and see the sangoma. Before the date, two of her children came, I don't remember whether it was Leah or Sarah and (indistinct). They came to my home, they found my sister, Selina Mtsweni and they said to her "we had decided to take them to our own sangoma" and they had decided not to go there, but they will do, they will go to Kwaggafontein, another area in kwaNdebele and they will look for comrades and they will bring them back in order for them to burn down our house or our home. MR RICHARD If I understood you correctly, these two women, Emma's children, told you in essence that they wouldn't go to your sangoma, but they intended going to comrades at Kwaggafontein who would then come and burn down your house, is that correct? MR MTSWENI That is correct. MR RICHARD Now the next thing is I believe your sister Selina did something, what is it that she did? Did she report the matter to you or ... MR MTSWENI If I remember very well, Selina told us, but before she told us, she went and saw the leaders of that area, Scwadi and Skosh. She told them that they mustn't be surprised if they found out that our house had been burnt down, because there were people who came to her and told her that they were going to go to Kwagga and fetch comrades to come and burn the house. She said if something like that could happen, they must know who were responsible. MR RICHARD Now, do you know what Scwadi and Skosh did in response to that? What did your leaders do in response to Emma's children's report to them? MR MTSWENI Skosh and Scwadi called on a meeting after she had told them everything, they called a meeting and they also fetched my grandmother's kids, Magololo and a certain date was set upon which we were going to go to the sangoma. When that day arrived, we were called again to another meeting. On that day I didn't have transportation. A man by the name of Mabona was called, he was owning a kombi. We boarded the kombi, my grandmother was also present and I think Magololo as well. We went to see Makuduza, the sangoma. When we arrived I think we arrived there at about seven, or between seven and eight. When we arrived, we got in there. Makuduza is the one person, one sangoma that works according to appointments. We had to go back and we had to make an appointment with him. We agreed on coming back on another date. When that day arrived, a meeting was called in a school. We gathered there in that school. My grandmother and her children didn't show up. On that day I was driving my uncle's bakkie. MR RICHARD Do you remember what day of the year this was, this last meeting at the school? MR MTSWENI If I remember quite well, I think it was on the 2nd of January 1991. MR RICHARD Were Emma Mtsweni and her daughters supposed to be at that meeting? MR MTSWENI Yes, because it was the day we agreed upon that we were going to go back to the sangoma. MR RICHARD Where had they gone instead of keeping their arrangements? MR MTSWENI We held the meeting and after the meeting, we proceeded to my grandmother's house. When we arrived there, we found Sarah and Leah. We asked them about their mother and they said to us she had run away. We asked them as to where she had gone to, they said she went to Vaalbank to see her brother. We took both of them because we wanted them to go and show us where their mother was. They boarded Phillip's van or bakkie, since I was also driving another van and Phillip was also driving another one. MR RICHARD On your way, my first question is did Sarah and Leah get into the bakkie voluntarily? MR MTSWENI If I remember, I think they were forced, it wasn't voluntarily. MR RICHARD At the meeting at the school, how many people were present? MR MTSWENI At that meeting at the school, I think it was approximately between 200 and 300 people. MR RICHARD At that meeting, those people, 200 or 300 in number, were they told that Emma Mtsweni had no revealed the source of the allegation against her, that she was a moloi and that she had not kept her appointments? MR MTSWENI Would you please repeat your question? ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Richard, maybe you can put the question in this way so that one can get a clear picture of what happened. MR RICHARD I will rephrase. There were 200 or 300 people at this meeting at the school, did anyone address the people and tell them what was happening? MR MTSWENI Yes, there was. MR RICHARD Who did that? MR MTSWENI Skosh. MR RICHARD Did Skosh report to that meeting that Emma Mtsweni should have been at that meeting? MR MTSWENI Yes, he did say so. MR RICHARD Did he report to the 200 or 300 people that she hadn't kept other arrangements? MR MTSWENI Would you please repeat your question, I don't quite understand. MR RICHARD My question is very simple, but I don't want to put a leading question to you. Did Skosh report to that meeting that Emma Mtsweni was asked to reveal the name of the person who had told her that you were spreading rumours that she was a witch, and that she hadn't been willing to answer the question? MR MTSWENI Yes. He did tell everyone in that meeting that Emma was supposed to have revealed the name of the person who said she was a witch, but she didn't. ADV SANDI Sorry, maybe you will be asking a question on something else, can I just ask a question relating to this Mr Richard? Just tell us everything that was said by Skosh to this crowd of people. MR MTSWENI We held two meetings, I don't know which meeting you are referring to. Would you please clarify to me which meeting, so that I will be able to answer your question? ADV SANDI The meeting at the school, the meeting at the school where you say Skosh addressed the crowd, what did he say to these people? MR MTSWENI Skosh told the people who had gathered in that meeting that Anna was supposed to be in that meeting, because she was supposed to accompany us to the sangoma and now we were supposed to go to her house in order to find out why she didn't show up. MR RICHARD May I interject at that point. Who was supposed to be at that meeting, but didn't pitch up? I might have misunderstood the Interpreter? MR MTSWENI Anna and her children. MR RICHARD Thank you, carry on. MR SIBANYONI Maybe, who is Anna? You are saying Anna, who is Anna? MR MTSWENI I am actually referring to Emma, I am making a mistake. MR RICHARD Yes, carry on. What else was said at the meeting, to the crowd? MR MTSWENI It was said that Emma Mtsweni was supposed to show up at that meeting and she was supposed to accompany us to the sangoma and she wasn't there. This is what our Chairman told us. MR RICHARD Now, what conclusion did the crowd come to from the information that it received? MR MTSWENI It was concluded that we were supposed to fetch her in her house, or from her house. ADV SANDI Sorry, just explain to me, whose suggestion was this that Emma should be fetched from her house? MR MTSWENI Skosh said so. ADV SANDI Did the crowd make any contribution by way of discussing the issue before it was concluded that Emma should be fetched from her house? MR RICHARD If I do remember, I think it was just his suggestion, because most people there relied on him, because he was the one who had information. MR RICHARD Thank you. From that meeting, did you go to Emma's house in Pieterskraal? MR MTSWENI Yes. CHAIRPERSON We had reached the stage where the two daughters were forced into the second van, and I assume you are on your way to Vaalbank. Take it from there, don't repeat what you had said. MR RICHARD Thank you. On the way to Vaalbank, according to what I am told, you stopped. Where did you stop? MR MTSWENI When we left Emma's house, we boarded the two bakkies, we left for Waterval, we arrived at a certain filling station. MR RICHARD What did you do at the filling station? MR MTSWENI We filled in the bakkie which I was driving and also in Phillip's bakkie. We also filled in a five litre with petrol. MR RICHARD If you filled your bakkie with petrol, why did you need to fill a five litre can with petrol as well? MR MTSWENI The reason I filled the five litre container with petrol, it was because I had decided that I was going to burn my grandmother, using that petrol, because at that stage I was angry. MR RICHARD Why had you come to that conclusion and why were you angry? MR MTSWENI I was angry because it hadn't been a long time since I had lost my parents, and there she was accusing us that we had accused her of being a witch, and after she had run away, it gave me the impression that she had more knowledge on this. MR RICHARD Now, from Waterval, the garage where you filled your bakkie and bought the petrol, where did you go next, to Vaalbank or back to the village? MR MTSWENI When we left Waterval, we went to Vaalbank. MR RICHARD And there, what happened? MR MTSWENI We arrived to the house where my grandmother had fled to. CHAIRPERSON Yes, sorry to intervene, just tell the story. Just say what happened, whether you went back home and so on, just tell us the whole story, carry on. MR MTSWENI We arrived at the house where my grandmother had fled to, the two bakkies stopped at the gate, the one that I was driving and the one that Phillip was driving. When we stopped, then we alighted the bakkie, the people who were in the back and the people who were in the front. We entered the yard where my grandmother was. We found the man who was the owner of the house. We told this man that we were looking for Emma Mtsweni, our grandmother and he said that she wasn't there. There was one Victor Ntuli who kicked the door open. My grandmother was in that house or in that room, and my other brothers got inside and took her forcefully. They took her to the bakkie, at the back of the bakkie and they also boarded the bakkie. Others were at the back and others were in the front. I also boarded the van and we started the cars. We drove back. We drove back to Pieterskraal. MR RICHARD What happened at Pieterskraal? MR MTSWENI When we arrived at Pieterskraal, we stopped in the school where we found other people whom we had left there. They all came back to the school. I said to them - we had passed the Police station and the house where we fetched the grandmother is also near a Police station, and I said to them "it may happen that the Police will get the information and follow us". That is when we decided to move from the school into the mountain or the hill. MR RICHARD Before you go to the mountain or hill or the bush, how many people were at the school? MR MTSWENI I think there were approximately 200 to 300 people who came back there. MR RICHARD At the school, was there any discussion between either you, your leaders, members of the crowd and Emma Mtsweni? MR MTSWENI Yes, there was a short discussion. MR RICHARD What was ... MR MTSWENI That is where Emma was asked as to why she had fled and she said that she was scared that they were going to burn her, and she was asked as to why would she be burnt and she said what she had done, she didn't do it alone. That is when we decided to go to the mountain or forest because we wanted to get more information and also we were scared that we had passed through a Police station and also the house where we took Emma, is near a Police station. Therefore we thought that Police may follow us, we decided to go to the mountain. When we arrived in the mountain, we took her out and other people got inside the bakkie. Some of them were running and chanting and they were chanting songs, toyi-toying and saying (indistinct). MR RICHARD What does that mean? MR MTSWENI It means if you don't come out with the truth, you will be necklaced. MR RICHARD Carry on. MR MTSWENI While we were in the mountain, others alighted the bakkies and also she was removed from the bakkie. She was questioned as to who else was involved in this witchcraft, and she said there was a certain man by the name of Mahlangu and he was also involved. Other comrades left the place, the mountain and went to fetch Mahlangu and his son was also present. I said to Phillip Mtsweni that since we had passed the Police station, it might happen that Police would follow us and find us there and we will have a problem to run away because we have cars. I decided that we should drive these two bakkies back home. I got inside. MR RICHARD Stop there. There were two bakkies, you got into the one bakkie, who got into the other bakkie? MR MTSWENI I got inside the one, I was driving, and Phillip Mtsweni also got inside the one that he was driving. In the one that I was driving, there was a five litre container with two to three litres petrol. I took this five litre container and gave it to Victor Ntuli. Then we told them that we were going to drop the bakkies at home and we were going to come back, because there was another group which went to fetch Mahlangu and we told them that we were going to come back to the mountain. When we arrived at home, as we were approaching in the main road, the two bakkies, Police van and as we were driving towards home, the Police vans followed us and they also entered our gate at home, with us. I got inside the yard and the Police van also got inside. Phillip stopped the van which he was driving, next to the road. The Police got inside the yard with me and they asked me if I was Mabhoko. As I was surprised, one inside the van said "yes, it was him, the one who you are talking to", and then the Police started assaulting me. They took me and they put me inside the Police van. They said to me I must go and show them where I lived and Phillip as well was put behind the Police van. We found other people at the back, I think Leah was one of them. Just before they arrived at the main road, they stopped the van, they said to me I must come and sit in front. They said I must go and show them where I had dropped Emma Mtsweni together with the people who were in the van that I was driving. I got inside, in front of the van, I was the fourth person because there were three Police in front. As we were approaching the mountain where we had left them, we saw a fire. I was still inside the Police van. We went with them and I pointed where I had left Emma and when we arrived there, we didn't find anyone. We had discovered that the Police van couldn't drive to get closer to the place where she was burning. They stopped, they took sticks from the trees and they started assaulting us. Other Police, after they alighted from the Police van, walked and got closer to where Emma was burning and they came back, they told us that she had been burnt and I don't know what else happened after this. MR RICHARD Now, to shorten the number of questions, I will ask you, you were here in this room yesterday listening to the evidence of Michael and Daniel Phasha, is that not correct? MR MTSWENI Yes, it is so, I was present. MR RICHARD Now, you heard the evidence about what was a moloi and what was an ngaka, do you remember that? MR MTSWENI Yes, I will say I do remember. MR RICHARD Do you agree that the difference between a moloi and an ngaka? MR MTSWENI Yes, according to my belief, it is like that, there is a difference. MR RICHARD This morning we have had a further word, sangoma. A sangoma, is a sangoma the same as a moloi or the same as an ngaka? MR MTSWENI I think a sangoma and an ngaka is the same thing, and they are not a witch. MR RICHARD Okay. Now, my next question is why do you say the killing, the burning of a person who was suspected of bewitching your parents, was political? Could you tell us? MR MTSWENI Would you please repeat your question? MR RICHARD My question is, you say that the act with which you are associated which constitutes a crime, that is the burning of Emma Mtsweni was political. Is that not correct? MR MTSWENI Yes, that is what I am saying. MR RICHARD My question then is why do you say it was political? MR MTSWENI I am saying so because I didn't take the decision all by myself to do such a thing, because if it wasn't political, I was going to go alone and do such a thing. Another thing, there was a strategy which was used that a witch and an informer, those are the people to be burnt. We knew that these two were obstacles in things which we wanted to do politically. MR RICHARD Now, why was a witch considered to be in the same category as an impimpi? MR MTSWENI In or belief, in our communities, we believe that a witch is someone who is jealous and who destroys all the beauty of the community. An impimpi or an informer is someone who takes things to an opponent, in order for an opponent to attack you, like taking information to the Police. People like that at the time, we had agreed that these two people, or these two types of people were the ones suitable for necklacing, because they were obstacles in our way to development. MR RICHARD How did you see that a moloi or a witch could prejudice the liberation struggle, what could they do to affect its outcome? MR MTSWENI As I had explained that according to our belief, a witch is someone who doesn't like development, they always like killing and evil things, therefore we didn't want witches and informers. MR RICHARD How did you think the killing of your parents by the witch, would benefit those oppose to the liberation struggle? MR MTSWENI Would you please repeat your question? MR RICHARD You tell us that a person like a moloi can cause somebody's death, am I right or wrong? MR MTSWENI Yes. MR RICHARD Now, if a moloi could or did tell your parents, how do you think that that would assist those who opposed the liberation struggle? MR MTSWENI If a witch kill our parents, eventually we will have more offence and that will lead to less development. That is why I am saying we don't need witches in the communities. MR RICHARD On the hillside, were people silent or were they singing, were they toyi-toying? MR MTSWENI People were toyi-toying and singing. MR RICHARD What were they singing? MR MTSWENI One song which they sang was saying (indistinct), and another one was that impimpi, yes, she is one, moloi, yes, she is one. MR RICHARD Were they singing any other songs? MR MTSWENI There were quite a number of songs which were sang, but I do remember the ones that I have just mentioned. MR RICHARD Now, where were your ANC leaders at the stage that you were on the mountain, before you left to take the bakkie back? MR MTSWENI When we were in the mountain, they were there, they were present. MR RICHARD My last question, if what I am going to turn generally the ANC comrades weren't there, would you have bought the petrol to burn Emma Mtsweni? MR MTSWENI No. I couldn't have done that alone. If I had other means or if I wanted Emma dead, I would have done it alone when she first came to accuse us. MR RICHARD Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mokoena? MR MOKOENA No questions, Mr Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Mtanga? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Mr Mtsweni, to which political organisation did your parents belong, were they supporters or members of a particular, specific organisation? MR MTSWENI I would be lying if I say I know that they were supporters of a political organisation. I do not have an answer to that. MS MTANGA I have no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Panel? MR SIBANYONI Just to get the area very clear, when you refer to Mabhogo at Kameelrivier, are you not referring to the King Maisha II at Weltevrede? MR MTSWENI Would you please repeat the question? MR SIBANYONI You are saying that Mabhogo is the senior chief and Mashiane is the junior chief. I just want to get clarity that by referring to Mabhogo, are you not referring to the Ndebele King who is Maisha II, where you got letters initially to attend the meeting? MR MTSWENI I am referring to Mabhogo, the one who was ruling kwaNdebele, in other words the King. MR SIBANYONI In other words the King, not the chief, am I correct? MR MTSWENI Yes. MR SIBANYONI Which school are you referring to where the meeting was held? MR MTSWENI It is a school near Pieterskraal. MR SIBANYONI You cannot remember the name? MR MTSWENI Egukhanyeni School. MR SIBANYONI And then at the stage when you purchased petrol at Waterval, was there already a decision taken that your grandmother would be necklaced? INTERPRETER I have a problem with my machine. CHAIRPERSON Please help her. All right, carry on. MR SIBANYONI How did you know that eventually your grandmother would be, or how did you know that eventually the decision would be taken that your grandmother should be burnt? MR MTSWENI Her actions as I have already explained, that her actions gave me the impression that she had more knowledge and she also helped by what she had said, because eventually she did say that she did that and she wasn't alone in doing so. MR SIBANYONI Who took the decision that she should be necklaced? MR MTSWENI If I do remember, I think I left before that decision was taken. I took the van, myself and Phillip and the people, some of the people who were left in the mountain are here, they will explain who had taken the decision that she must be burnt at that time when she was burnt. MR SIBANYONI In your evidence-in-chief I heard you referring to Skosh Nkabinde as the Chairperson. The question is the Chairperson of which structure? MR MTSWENI Youth League, ANC Youth League Chairperson, he was the one who was our leader at the time, we were under him in my area or the area where we were residing. MR SIBANYONI Was he always present when you were looking for your grandmother until your grandmother was taken to the mountain? MR MTSWENI Yes, he was present when we went to fetch my grandmother. MR SIBANYONI You told us that this incident happened on the 2nd of January 1991, but our bundle refers to the 1st of January 1991. Are you certain about the date on which it occurred? MR MTSWENI It may happen that I am making a mistake because of the time which had elapsed, but it was between the 1st and the 2nd of January. It has been a long time, I cannot be certain about that. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV SANDI Thank you Chair. Do you know what has caused the death of your parents? MR MTSWENI I do not have that knowledge, I do not have the knowledge what was the cause. What I had discovered was that my grandmother did say that she had used muti, but also she wasn't alone in doing so. There were other people involved as well. The only knowledge now that I have is that my grandmother did say that she gave them muti, but she wasn't doing this alone. She also mentioned other names. ADV SANDI Did your two parents die at about the same time? MR MTSWENI There was a gap of about a month to three months. ADV SANDI Just explain to me what exactly are we talking about here, are we talking about people who had fallen sick and subsequently died? MR MTSWENI My father was sick, my mother was not sick. My father got sick, my father was sick and my mother was not sick, but my mother died first and then my father died after my mother's death. ADV SANDI Before Emma came to you to say that she had been made aware by someone that you were accusing her of having bewitched your two parents. Did you personally have any suspicion that there was witchcraft involved in the death of your parents? MR MTSWENI No, I wasn't suspecting anything. ADV SANDI Did you before Emma came to you, did you personally ever suspect her of being a witch? MR MTSWENI No. No, I never suspected Emma. ADV SANDI Did you at any stage thereafter believe that she was a witch? MR MTSWENI Well I believed that she was a witch, it was the word she had uttered on the day when she was burnt. She did say that she had done so, but she wasn't doing it alone. She was together with others, that is when I believed that she was a witch. ADV SANDI When you were travelling with the two vehicles to Vaaldam, this place where you had to go and fetch Emma, did you believe that she was a witch at that stage? MR MTSWENI Would you please repeat your question? ADV SANDI You went to fetch Emma at some place, I think you said that was Vaalfontein, where she was apparently hiding, running away from you. do you remember saying that? MR MTSWENI Yes, I do remember. ADV SANDI My question is whilst you were travelling on the way to this place to fetch her, did you personally believe you were on the way to fetch a person who was a witch? MR MTSWENI As I had already explained that the fact that she had fled, gave me the impression that she was guilty. I was certain that if one didn't know anything, then one need not run away. I will put an example, if I know that I had stolen something, soon as I see Police, I will run away, because I don't want to be arrested, but if I had done nothing wrong, even if I see Police, I will just sit and relax, I won't be scared. ADV SANDI My understanding of your evidence is that at that stage you were not accusing her of being a witch, she had come to say to you that she had been told by someone that you say she is a witch, which thing you denied? You wanted to know this person, isn't that correct? MR MTSWENI I don't quite follow your question, you are asking a question about on my way to Vaalbank or where? ADV SANDI Is it not the position here that you never accused Emma of being a witch, that she behaved in a manner which made you suspicious that she must have been a witch, you never made such an allegation against her, did you? MR MTSWENI Yes, as I have already mentioned that I never suspected her, but her behaviour or her actions gave me another impression that she knew more. ADV SANDI Now, let's talk about the meeting there at the school. Who had suggested that such a meeting should be called? MR MTSWENI If I do remember, I had explained that Scwadi and Skosh were the two people that were responsible in organising the meetings. These were the people who used to advertise in order to call people for a meeting. ADV SANDI Did they tell you why a crowd of people had to be involved in this matter, at that stage? What was the purpose of this meeting, did they tell you? MR MTSWENI Would you please repeat that for me? ADV SANDI Did they tell you why the meeting had to be called at the school? MR MTSWENI Yes, they did tell us why they called a meeting. ADV SANDI What did they tell you? MR MTSWENI We held two meetings in that school, which meeting are you referring to? You are talking about the first meeting or the second meeting? ADV SANDI I am sure you know very well that I am asking you about the time when the meeting was held for the first time at the school? That is what I am asking you about? What was the purpose of that meeting? MR MTSWENI The purpose of the first meeting was to inform the people that we were supposed to go with Emma to the sangoma. We told the people that we couldn't, we set a date and we went to the sangoma and when we arrived there we discovered that the sangoma was using appointments as I have already explained. ADV SANDI I am not asking you to repeat all the evidence you have given, I am asking you a very simple question, what was the purpose of convening that meeting at the school? What was the aim? Why were these people called, wasn't this a family matter as you say in your statement? You say it was a family matter? MR MTSWENI People gathered at the school to get information about what happened and also to be told that there were people who were going to fetch comrades from Kwaggafontein to come and burn down our house. Therefore we wanted them to know that there was such a thing in case it happened. ADV SANDI Yes, I follow you. This crowd of people having been told all this, what were they supposed to do, what were they expected to do, having been informed of all this? Let's talk about the five litre container of petrol, you said on the way to fetch Emma, you bought some quantity of petrol, did I understand you correctly to say that? MR MTSWENI Yes, I said so. ADV SANDI Did you tell anyone of the people who were travelling with you, why you were buying this petrol? MR MTSWENI No, I didn't tell anyone. I just bought the petrol and I took it to the van or the bakkie. ADV SANDI By the way, you said at that stage you were buying this petrol because you were angry and frustrated that your parents had just died? MR MTSWENI Yes, I said so. ADV SANDI Are you able to point out any person from the political leadership of your organisation who gave an order that this person should be killed? MR MTSWENI As I have already mentioned that the decision was taken in the long term, and I wasn't there by the time the decision was taken, I was in the Police van after I had dropped my uncle's bakkie at home. ADV SANDI I understand you were not opposed to such a decision being taken any way, were you? MR MTSWENI Would you please repeat your question? ADV SANDI Would I be correct to understand you to say that you had no problem with the decision that was taken to burn this woman, would that be correct? MR MTSWENI If I will tell the truth, I will say it is so, I didn't have a problem. At that time I didn't have a problem on that decision. ADV SANDI Can you say why you had no problem with such a decision? MR MTSWENI Yes, I can explain. As I had already (indistinct), I said when my grandmother ran away, she actually gave me the certain impression and also what she had said after we had captured her. With all that knowledge which I had at that time, I supported the decision even though they had decided without me, in my absence, because the reason I was not there, was because I had gone home to drop the bakkie. ADV SANDI My last question to you would be please tell us everything that you think is political about this incident, the necklacing of Emma Mtsweni, please tell us everything that you think is political about it. MR MTSWENI I will explain it this way - if what happened was personal, I would have done it alone, I wouldn't have involved the comrades of the area. Pieterskraal's comrades, the entire Youth, they were present because they were, they believed that informers and witches must be burnt. Therefore this whole thing, this entire incident was political and also we knew that an injury to one is an injury to all. ADV SANDI I thought the question I was asking you was my last one, my last, last question to you now. Did your parents believe that the deceased, Emma Mtsweni, was a witch? MR MTSWENI I wouldn't have an answer to that because I could never read my parents' mind and since they never opened their mouths about whether Emma was a witch or not, therefore I couldn't know and I cannot say they thought about it. What I can tell you is that I don't know, if I were to tell you anything different from that, it will be a lie. ADV SANDI Yes, but let me put this question differently, do you know if they suspected of anyone of having performed witchcraft against them as the result of which they died? Do you know if they entertained such a belief? MR MTSWENI No, I have never heard anything, probably it was their secret if they ever suspected anyone because they never told me that somebody was bewitching them. ADV SANDI Thank you very much. Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Richard, re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD One question, one of three questions. Why were there so many people at the school on both occasions? MR MTSWENI It was because these people were the followers and supporters of the ANC, whenever there were meetings, they used to come in numbers. MR RICHARD When you answered the Committee and said "we wanted the people to know", two questions come out of that, who are the people you refer to as "we"? The second question is, who did they want to know about the whole Emma story? MR MTSWENI The comrades needed to know, they wanted to know about what was happening about Emma and why we held meetings. MR RICHARD Now, you didn't say who is "we", is "we" just you or you and your family, who are the people you talk about as "we"? MR MTSWENI I had knowledge, I didn't need more, but it was myself and the Chairperson, and he was the one who was telling the person who gathered for the meeting. MR RICHARD Right, my last question is, did other people see you buy the petrol? MR MTSWENI Yes, I will say they saw me and they didn't say anything. They didn't even ask me any questions when I bought the petrol. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mtsweni, you are excused, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR RICHARD You have answered the question, my next witness or do we adjourn? CHAIRPERSON Yes, we will take a shortened lunch adjournment and we will reconvene at two o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard, who is the next applicant? MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson, the second person I am calling to apply is Phillip Mfulatwelwa Mtsweni.