amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-11 MIDDELBURG 3 SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI AM4300/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54189&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200511mi.htm CHAIRPERSON That is on page 17 or 13? 13 yes? Very well. Sorry, could we just swop around? Yes, Mr Mtsweni, please stand. Are you Speelman Ernest Mtsweni? MR MTSWENI Yes, that is correct. SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, please sit down. Yes, Mr Richard? EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you Mr Chairperson. Before we get into the details, may I ask you the following question, what is your relationship to the last witness, that is Phillip Mtsweni? MR MTSWENI My uncle. MR RICHARD Could you describe exactly who he is married to, is it one of your mother's sisters or is he your father's brother? MR MTSWENI He is my uncle because his father is my grandfather. He is my relative, I don't know clearly to indicate the line of relationship, but he is my relative. MR RICHARD Thank you. What is your relationship to July Mtsweni? MR MTSWENI He is my brother. MR RICHARD In other words you share the same mother and father? MR MTSWENI Yes, we share the same parents. MR RICHARD Thank you. So - now during the period 1990/1991 did you belong to any political organisation or support any political organisation? MR MTSWENI Yes, I was a follower of the ANC. MR RICHARD For how long had you followed the ANC? From when did you start? MR MTSWENI Even though I wouldn't be able to give you the year, but since I started becoming aware, the ANC was the only organisation, therefore I supported the ANC. MR RICHARD Now, where did you grow up and where were you educated? MR MTSWENI Pieterskraal, and I also went to school in Pieterskraal. MR RICHARD Thank you. Do you agree with the description of Pieterskraal by the previous two witnesses, that it is a rural area, part of the old kwaNdebele which was still then under the influence of tribal leaders and (indistinct) and chiefs? MR MTSWENI Yes, I do agree. MR RICHARD Now, how did you demonstrate your support and association with the ANC? MR MTSWENI The meetings which were held,I used to be one of the people present in the meeting. Whenever there were consumer boycotts, I used to support that, whenever there were strikes, I used to participate as well. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now, you have heard the previous witnesses describe a number of events which culminated in the killing of Emma Mtsweni on the 2nd of January 1991, at what stage in those events, did you become connected with what developed? Was it the 2nd, the 1st, before then? Which meetings were you at? MR MTSWENI I arrived at the school after the meeting had been finished. It was when they were on their way to the mountains. Phillip and July dropped other comrades who were in their bakkies. We got inside the forest with this person. When we arrived in the forest, she was questioned as to who else was involved in her work. MR RICHARD If I understand you correctly, Phillip and July Mtsweni came back to the school with her and it was from there that you went to the forest? MR MTSWENI I met them in the school after the meeting, as they were going to the mountain. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now, did you know anything about the story of Emma Mtsweni asking your brother and uncle who had named her, sorry, why they had named her as a witch, did you know any of this background? MR MTSWENI What I can say is that when she came and claimed that it had been alleged that she was a witch and she had said that we were the ones who accused her of witchcraft and when she was asked as to who told her that, she didn't want to reveal. I left the whole story to the elderly because I was still young at that time, so therefore I didn't pursue it. MR RICHARD And you weren't at any of the meetings where that was discussed and decisions were made to refer the problem to an Ngaka and so on? MR MTSWENI No, I didn't. MR RICHARD At the time that you were at the school and people were going to take Emma Mtsweni to the mountain, what did you think they were going to do with her there? MR MTSWENI When I arrived at the school, the meeting was over and I did question some of the people there and I was told that they were just going to question her in the mountain. MR RICHARD What were they going to, let me start again, who did you ask that question? MR MTSWENI The person who was closer to me, it was Richard Skosana. MR RICHARD Did Richard Skosana belong to or support any political organisation? MR MTSWENI Yes, he was, and that is why he was there, he was a supporter of the ANC. MR RICHARD Were there any people there who were not supporters of the ANC? MR MTSWENI I would by lying, I think the people who were there, they were supporters of the ANC. MR RICHARD Now, when you got to the mountain, what did they do to Emma Mtsweni? MR MTSWENI When we arrived at the mountain, Emma was questioned and what she said was she wasn't in this thing alone. She also said that the muti that she gave them, she wasn't killing them, she wanted them to be made, the muti was just to make them crazy and she also said that she was working with Mahlangu. When she said so, Sam Mahlangu who is a son of Mr Mahlangu, said that we must go and fetch his father as well, so that he can come and listen to the allegations. As Sam went to fetch his father, Victor Ntuli gave the five litre container to Janya. Janya poured the petrol over Emma and Richard Skosana came and he also poured the petrol over Emma. I took the petrol from Richard and I also poured. MR RICHARD Now what did the comrades, that you were part of, believe about a person called a moloi? What did they believe should be done to a moloi? MR MTSWENI We believed that the witch or moloi, is the person to be killed. MR RICHARD Why did you believe that a witch should be killed? MR MTSWENI It was part of the struggle. We didn't need witches because we saw them as evil and as obstacles to the development. MR RICHARD In what way was a witch an obstacle to development? MR MTSWENI A witch was dangerous. If we had to leave a witch amongst the community, a witch can destroy the community because he is an obstruction to development. MR RICHARD Do you believe in witchcraft? MR MTSWENI Yes, I do. MR RICHARD Do you believe that witches use their magic sorcery against the ANC? MR MTSWENI Yes, I do believe because one of the things that a witch can do, is to disrupt development and the witches didn't like what the Youth was doing, and the Youth was fighting the struggle. MR RICHARD Why do you think a witch might have wanted to kill your parents? MR MTSWENI Would you please repeat your question? MR RICHARD You are the brother of the first applicant, July Mtsweni? MR MTSWENI Yes. MR RICHARD Now my next question is, your parents had died recently within a short period from each other, is that not correct? MR MTSWENI That is correct. MR RICHARD Now my next question is, why do you think a witch might have wanted your parents dead? MR MTSWENI I didn't think that a witch wanted my parents dead. MR RICHARD And when you heard Emma Mtsweni say what she said on the side of the mountain, what did you think? MR MTSWENI It was too difficult for me, because first she is the one who came to my home and accused us of accusing her of being a witch and now at the mountain, she was confessing that she had done that, and she was doing it with other people as well. MR RICHARD Who decided that she should die? MR MTSWENI It was Skosh and Scwadi. MR RICHARD Did you hear either of them say that Emma Mtsweni should die? MR MTSWENI After she had confessed as to what she had done and who else was involved, one of them said "since she had said so, she must be killed." MR RICHARD How far away from that person, were you when you heard him say that? MR MTSWENI Close to me and Emma, this person was closer to me and Emma. MR RICHARD Now, at that stage, did you see Johannes Mahlangu or Charles Skosana near you? MR MTSWENI No, I didn't see Johannes. I saw Charles. MR RICHARD How far away from you, was he? MR MTSWENI Charles was closer to me. I was closer to Charles. MR RICHARD Who lit the petrol? MR MTSWENI After we had poured the petrol, I didn't see the person who lit the match, but Janya said "Charles, were is the match" and Charles took the box of matches and said "here". When he said so, a Police van were approaching and the lights were direct to where we were and I looked at those lights and when I turned back, the body was already on fire but I didn't see the person who actually lit, but the box of matches was with Charles. MR RICHARD Now, on the mountain, were people singing, toyi-toying? MR MTSWENI Yes, they were singing and they were toyi-toying. MR RICHARD What were they saying, what were the words of the songs? MR MTSWENI One song called (indistinct) MR RICHARD What does that mean to you? MR MTSWENI It means if you don't come out with the truth, you will be burnt. MR RICHARD Now, what did your age brothers, your comrades, believe are impimpi's and moloi's? MR MTSWENI They must be burnt. MR RICHARD If it had been an impimpi on the mountain, would they have sung any different song? MR MTSWENI They will sing the very song and other songs as well, because there are quite a number of songs. MR RICHARD Were any other songs sung before Emma was set on fire? MR MTSWENI Yes, there were. MR RICHARD What were they? MR MTSWENI (Indistinct), meaning an informer is not required, it is banned. MR RICHARD Why did you see, yourself personally, Emma Mtsweni's killing as political? MR MTSWENI As we as comrades knew that informers and witches were not needed in the community and on top of that, on that particular day we had leaders amongst us, they are the ones who sanctioned the actions. MR RICHARD How would that further the cause of the liberation struggle? MR MTSWENI Would you please repeat your question? MR RICHARD How would the killing of Emma Mtsweni further the freedom struggle, the liberation struggle? MR MTSWENI As he or as she had confessed that she was doing that, other witches were going to be scared to do the same and therefore development was going to ensue. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mokoena? MR MOKOENA Thank you Chairperson, I have no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mokoena. Ms Mtanga, any questions? MS MTANGA I have no questions, Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Does the Panel have any questions? ADV SANDI Yes, just maybe one or two. On the way to the mountain, did Emma try to do anything to free herself and perhaps run away? MR MTSWENI No, she didn't try on our way to the mountain. ADV SANDI You have said that she was questioned at the mountain. Who was questioning her? MR MTSWENI Victor Ntuli. ADV SANDI How was she questioned? MR MTSWENI He questioned her about her running away and he wanted to know why she was running away and she answered back that the reason she ran away was because she had done that and she wasn't alone and also that her motive was not killing my parents, but it was to make them crazy. ADV SANDI What I want to know is did Victor Ntuli use any physical force to question her? MR MTSWENI No, she was not assaulted, she was just questioned. ADV SANDI Was he carrying anything in his hand or hands whilst he was questioning her? MR MTSWENI Yes, he had something in his hand, it was the container, the five litre container of petrol. ADV SANDI Then she made what you refer to as the confession that she was a witch? MR MTSWENI Victor didn't touch her, he questioned her and she said "yes, I have done that but my aim was not to kill them, but was just to make them crazy." ADV SANDI Did anything happen to the person whose name she mentioned, did anything happen to that person, the one who was said to have given her the muti? MR MTSWENI Could you please repeat the question? ADV SANDI You have mentioned a name, I think you have said it was Mahlangu who supplied the medicine, the muti. what happened to Mahlangu, did anything happen to him? You said the group went out to fetch him? MR MTSWENI After the group had left, immediately a Police van came. ADV SANDI So is it today the position that nothing ever happened to Mahlangu? MR MTSWENI No, nothing, nothing happened. ADV SANDI I understood the first two applicants to say that it was dark at the mountain, where were you able to see these people you mentioned, you said, you mentioned a number of names of people who were there at the mountain? It was dark but you were still able to see these people, or was it not so dark that you could not see them? MR MTSWENI Yes, it was dark, but we were together, they were just next to me, close. ADV SANDI Now, Victor Ntuli, do you know if he occupied any portfolio in the ANC or any political organisation aligned with the ANC? MR MTSWENI What I can say is that I am not certain about his position but he was a comrade. ADV SANDI Yes, but would you be able to rate him at the same rank as Scwadi and Skosh? Would he have been of about the same rank in the organisation or was he just an ordinary ANC supporter? MR MTSWENI Yes, I can. ADV SANDI Did you see Scwadi and Skosh at the mountain? MR MTSWENI Yes, I saw them. ADV SANDI What did they do or what did they say? MR MTSWENI They said "since she had confessed, then we must finish with her." ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SIBANYONI Mr Mtsweni, on page 15, when you were answering question 10(a) you said there is no political objective to be achieved on this matter, since it is very painful. My question is did you misunderstand the question or at the time you were completing the form, you believed that there was no political objective to be achieved? MR MTSWENI Would you please repeat your question? MR SIBANYONI Let me maybe rephrase the question. Did you complete the form on your own, or did somebody help you to complete the form? MR MTSWENI I did it on my own. MR SIBANYONI Can you look at page 15, it says there is no political objective to be achieved. Did you misunderstand what you were asked or at that stage you believed there was no political objective to be achieved? MR MTSWENI I made a mistake when filling in the application. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, no further questions Chairperson. ADV SANDI With your permission, if I could just take that one further. What exactly were you trying to say there, if you say you made a mistake? MR MTSWENI I made a mistake, I think I didn't quite follow. ADV SANDI In answer to a question raised under 10(b) you seem to regret that this thing was joined by comrades who caused a lot of destruction in the matter, under 10(b)? Can you show your man, Mr Richard? MR MTSWENI Yes, initially this woman came to my home and this matter was a family matter and then later it went on until the comrades were involved. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman for your indulgence. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Richard? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD One or two questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes please. MR RICHARD At what stage did you change your mind and believed that the comrades were right about your grandmother? MR MTSWENI Would you please repeat your question? MR RICHARD What you have said so far is initially you thought it was a family matter, but then at some stage you changed your mind. My question is at what stage, when, did you change your mind? MR MTSWENI After I heard that there were comrades who were going to come and burn down my house. MR RICHARD Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mtsweni, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Who is next, Mr Richard? MR RICHARD Thank you Chair. My next person I beg leave to call is Mr Mahlangu. CHAIRPERSON Very well.