amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-11 MIDDELBURG 3 JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU AM7461/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54190&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200511mi.htm CHAIRPERSON Just remain Mr Mahlangu, don't sit down, just stand. Give your full names for the record. MR MAHLANGU Johannes Mabulani Mahlangu. JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You can sit down. Mr Richard? EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mahlangu, during the period December 1990, January 1991, were you a member of or a supporter of any political party or political movement? MR MAHLANGU Yes, I was a member. MR RICHARD You say a member, did you carry a membership card of any party? MR MAHLANGU I had a card. MR RICHARD Issued by who? MR MAHLANGU The ANC Youth League. MR RICHARD When did you join the ANC Youth League? MR MAHLANGU I think it was in 1987 or 1988. MR RICHARD I believe that would be 1987, is that correct, 1987? Now did you ever occupy any particular portfolio or position within the Youth League? MR MAHLANGU No. MR RICHARD So you were just an ordinary member? MR MAHLANGU Yes. MR RICHARD Now, where did you grow up and where were you schooled? MR MAHLANGU Pieterskraal. MR RICHARD Thank you. In Pieterskraal, did you get to know the Mtsweni family? MR MAHLANGU Yes. MR RICHARD What political affiliation did they have, if any? MR MAHLANGU I am not quite certain about that. MR RICHARD Now, how did you demonstrate your membership or support of the ANC? MR MAHLANGU I used to participate in boycotts and also I used to volunteer as a member to help if there were meetings, I used to participate as well. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now, at what stage did you become aware of the discussions regarding Emma Mtsweni and her connection with witchcraft? MR MAHLANGU I heard about this in the last meeting. MR RICHARD In the last meeting? When you say the last meeting, on what time of the day, on which day, was this meeting? MR MAHLANGU It was at about six in the afternoon. MR RICHARD Where was this meeting? MR MAHLANGU Egukhanyeni School. MR RICHARD When you arrived at that meeting, what had your learnt? MR MAHLANGU When I arrived, the meeting was just about to be finished. MR RICHARD Did you know what the meeting was about and what did you learn about what had happened in the meeting? MR MAHLANGU Lately yes. MR RICHARD I didn't understand, sorry? You arrived at the meeting, the meeting was about to disperse, did you ask anyone what was happening at the meeting and why the meeting had been held? MR MAHLANGU Yes, I did. MR RICHARD What were you told? MR MAHLANGU I was told that Emma Mtsweni was supposed to accompany others to go to a sangoma and the meeting area was going to be the school, and therefore it was decided that she was going to be fetched in order to be questioned why she didn't show up in the meeting. MR RICHARD Did you know why she was supposed to show up at the meeting and what was supposed to be investigated after this discussion? MR MAHLANGU Yes. MR RICHARD And you confirm what the previous witnesses have said today, about why she had to be fetched? MR MAHLANGU Yes. MR RICHARD Now, what did you do, did you go with them to go and fetch her or did you stay at Pieterskraal? MR MAHLANGU I went with them to fetch her. MR RICHARD Where did you go to fetch her from? MR MAHLANGU We went to fetch her from Vaalbank, where she had fled. MR RICHARD At Vaalbank, how did you go to Vaalbank, did you walk, did you ride? CHAIRPERSON Yes, or did you listen to the full account that was given of this trip and how the deceased was picked up in Vaalbank, and everything that happened on the way and how she was eventually taken back to the school where that meeting was being held. Do you confirm that testimony or do you differ from it? If you differ from it, just tell us in which respects you differ. MR MAHLANGU I do confirm everything they had said. CHAIRPERSON Good. You are now back at the school, carry on. MR RICHARD For how long were you back at the school? MR MAHLANGU We only spent about four to five minutes there. MR RICHARD And then where did you go? MR MAHLANGU We went to the mountain. MR RICHARD You have heard the previous evidence of going to the mountain, do you confirm that? MR MAHLANGU Yes, I do confirm what they have said. MR RICHARD Now, where were you in relation to the deceased when you arrived at the mountain and did you see anything being done to her or happening to her? Did people question her, do anything? MR MAHLANGU I was responsible for taking her out of the car and then after that, I left her in the hands of comrades and I didn't do anything. ADV SANDI Sorry, how did you take her out of the car? MR MAHLANGU I opened the door and she was taken out. MR RICHARD What did the comrades do with her once they took her out of the car? MR MAHLANGU They surrounded her. MR RICHARD What did they say or do? MR MAHLANGU It was, they were toyi-toying and singing and after they surrounded her, they started singing louder. MR RICHARD Did you hear what they were singing? MR MAHLANGU Yes. MR RICHARD What were they singing? MR MAHLANGU They were singing (indistinct) MR RICHARD And you agree with the interpretation the previous witnesses have given us of that song and what it means? MR MAHLANGU Yes, I do agree. MR RICHARD Could you hear them say anything else to her because if they were singing and - did they say anything else to her? MR MAHLANGU No, I didn't hear because they were singing. MR RICHARD Now, did you see any ANC leaders around her or near you or any were there? MR MAHLANGU Yes, they were. MR RICHARD Who did you see? MR MAHLANGU Victor Ntuli, he was together with us, we left with him and came back with him. MR RICHARD Who else? MR MAHLANGU Scwadi was also present. MR RICHARD Anyone else? MR MAHLANGU The only two that I am certain of, the two that I have seen with my eyes, are these two that I have mentioned. MR RICHARD Was it light or dark in the mountain? MR MAHLANGU It was dark. MR RICHARD Was it dark so that you could see nothing or dark so that you could see a little bit, full moon light? MR MAHLANGU It was dark, but one could see someone close to you. MR RICHARD If you knew that person, was it sufficiently light to be able to recognise the people you knew? MR MAHLANGU If you knew someone and if he or she was next to you, you will tell who it was. MR RICHARD Now, what happened next? You are at the mountain, people had surrounded her and singing and toyi-toying, what happened? MR MAHLANGU After they had taken her and surrounded her, I couldn't see properly what was happening to her, but what I saw was Police vans and at that time, she was on fire. MR RICHARD Then what happened? MR MAHLANGU When the Police were approaching the mountain, everyone started running away. MR RICHARD What happened to Emma Mtsweni? MR MAHLANGU I wouldn't be able to say what happened to Emma Mtsweni because all I know is that she was on fire. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now, at page 18 of the bundle, which is your application for amnesty, at paragraph 10(a) you say "... the murder was committed under the leadership of the Youth", why do you say the murder was committed under the leadership of the Youth? MR MAHLANGU Would you please repeat your question. MR RICHARD At paragraph 10(a) of your application for amnesty, there is a section which says "State the political objective that was intended to be achieved", your answer starts by saying and I quote "... the murder was committed under the leadership of the Youth", and then it goes on. My question is what and how was the murder committed under the leadership of the Youth? MR MAHLANGU When it was first reported that Emma Mtsweni was a witch, it came to be known to the comrades. That is why I am saying it happened under the instructions of the Youth. MR RICHARD When somebody was reported to the Youth League of the ANC in your area to be a witch, what did the ANC Youth League believe should be done with that person? MR MAHLANGU We as a Youth were responsible to resolve those problems. MR RICHARD In what way did a witch pose a problem to the ANC, how did she threaten the ANC? MR MAHLANGU We Youth or the ANC Youth, realising that bewitching and killing our parents was going to lead to us being orphans and therefore we couldn't continue development and some of us were going to be orphans and street kids and the organisation was not going to prosper and it was going to be divided. MR RICHARD And then at the same paragraph of your application, after the phrase that I have read you say under the leadership of the Youth, and then I continue "... to help the community by they were not under by any organisation, but the government was the main source of that murder." Would you like to read what I have just read out? Read it carefully because my question is what do you mean by that? CHAIRPERSON Read it with 10(b), let him read 10(b) too, the last few lines. MR RICHARD The Chairperson requests that you read 10(a) and 10(b). CHAIRPERSON Have you read it? Did you write it out yourself? MR MAHLANGU Exactly. CHAIRPERSON All right, carry on. MR RICHARD Do you confirm what you said there? MR MAHLANGU Yes, I do agree. MR RICHARD The other thing that I was going to ask you is you have heard what other witnesses have said about what the ANC Youth should do with moloi's, do you associate yourself with that comment or do you differ in any way from those comments? MR MAHLANGU Yes, I do confirm that and I do agree with them. MR RICHARD So you agree with the statement that moloi's were seen as opponents of the liberation struggle and people that should be killed for the same reasons as an impimpi should be dealt with in that way? MR MAHLANGU Yes, I do. MR RICHARD Now again a general question. You have heard the evidence of previous witnesses, both today and yesterday about what a moloi and a ngaka is and the differences between them. Do you agree with what was said? MR MAHLANGU Yes, I do agree. MR RICHARD Do you believe in witchcraft? MR MAHLANGU Yes, I do. MR RICHARD Did you agree with the killing of Emma Mtsweni? MR MAHLANGU Yes, I did. MR RICHARD And how did you think her killing would further the interests of the struggle? MR MAHLANGU I knew that the Youth was getting most of their support from their parents and since we were involved in a struggle, it couldn't have been easier for us to do so without parents. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now, I turn to page 19 of the bundle, paragraph 11(2) and I ask you to read through 11(2)(a). Thank you. There you say "... no order was given, but just because the community was helpless, we the Youth decided to eradicate anything in the way of our community." Did you hear anyone give an order or didn't you? MR MAHLANGU I didn't hear anyone. MR RICHARD How did the Youth come to a decision to eradicate witches or particularly Mrs Emma Mtsweni? MR MAHLANGU Please repeat your question. MR RICHARD Here you say "... we the Youth decided to eradicate anything in the way of our community." I am asking the following questions - what decision was made, where it was made, who made it and how it was communicated to the rest of the world? Let's start with what was the decision? MR MAHLANGU The decision which was taken was that we should remove anyone who becomes an obstacle in the struggle. MR RICHARD Was that decision made on the 2nd of January 1991 or at some time before or after that? MR MAHLANGU It was our policy, or let me say we believed long before that that witches and informers were supposed to be removed. This was our policy, we comrades. MR RICHARD Now, to whom was that decision communicated? Who did you tell about your decision? MR MAHLANGU I think everyone at that time, more especially every Youth knew that a moloi or a witch was someone to be burnt. MR RICHARD Now my last question, it was for that reason that once you have heard that Emma Mtsweni was a witch, you decided that she should be killed or the Youth around you decided that she should be killed? Am I not correct? MR MAHLANGU Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. MS MTANGA Chairperson, if I may come in at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MS MTANGA The Interpreters are requesting a short adjournment. CHAIRPERSON Just give us a minute, perhaps we can finish off this witness, perhaps there are not many or any questions. Just a minute. MR MOKOENA Thank you Chairperson, I don't have any questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mokoena. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA I have no questions, Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Panel? MR SIBANYONI You say you joined the ANC Youth League in 1987 or 1988, did I understand you correctly? MR MAHLANGU Yes. MR SIBANYONI Was there a branch of the Youth League at that stage? MR MAHLANGU No, we didn't have a branch, but we had a branch nearby. MR SIBANYONI But political organisations were unbanned only during 1990, how would there have been some structures of the ANC in your area in 1987 or 1988? MR MAHLANGU Would you please repeat your question? MR SIBANYONI Political organisations were unbanned during February 1990, how could it have been, how is it possible that there was a structure of the ANC in your area by the year you said you joined the ANC Youth League? MR MAHLANGU What I know is that I have been a supporter of the ANC since the time of the Mbokodo. Even though the ANC was banned. MR SIBANYONI Are you not perhaps referring to the United Democratic Front, the UDF which was active during that time when the ANC was banned? MR MAHLANGU Yes, I am talking about the UDF. MR SIBANYONI No further questions Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI Thank you, just one. Did you believe that people who were witches, identified themselves or sympathised with any political formation such as the Nationalist Party government that was in power at the time, or any political grouping? MR MAHLANGU Yes. ADV SANDI Can you explain that? MR MAHLANGU The reason I am saying that you can refer to them as informers, because in fact they were in a way similar to informers, therefore you can say they were supporting the NP. ADV SANDI Did you know the political affiliation of Emma Mtsweni, if she had any? MR MAHLANGU No, I don't. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Re-examination? MR RICHARD No re-examination, thank you Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mahlangu, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON We will stand down for 10 minutes, just to give everybody a chance to re-adjust themselves. MR RICHARD I am indebted, thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS MR RICHARD Mr Chairperson, the next, that is the last applicant in this particular series, Charles Michael Skosana. May I call him? CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Richard. MR RICHARD I call Mr Skosana.