amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-11 MIDDELBURG 3 MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI AM2043/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54192&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200511mi.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON We will now hear the application of Magome Freddie Tladi, amnesty reference AM2043/96. The appearances are as for the previous matter. Mr Tladi, are your full names Magome Freddie Tladi? MR TLADI That is correct. MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI ; (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Please sit down. Yes, Mr Richard? EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. My first question Mr Tladi is the incident for which you apply for amnesty took place on the 20th of August 1992 at Maroshane. At that time, were you a member or a supporter of any political organisation? MR TLADI Yes, I was a follower. MR RICHARD And if so, which organisation did you support? MR TLADI I was a follower of the African National Congress. MR RICHARD And how did you support the ANC, what did you do to support them? MR TLADI I was attending rallies, consumer boycotts and strikes. MR RICHARD Now, in your area of Maroshane, who were, what was the ANC structure, who was the Chairperson, who were the Committee members, who held what offices? MR TLADI It was Rinco Masimola. MR RICHARD Any others? MR TLADI It was Rinco Masimola, I don't remember the others. MR RICHARD The next question is where is Maroshane, which is the nearest significant town or village to Maroshane? MR TLADI It is near Groblersdal. MR RICHARD Was Maroshane part of one of the old so-called Independent States like Lebowa, Venda or kwaNdebele? MR TLADI That is correct. MR RICHARD Now, in that area, where there still traditional structures in the sense that there was a (indistinct), sub-chiefs? MR TLADI That is correct. MR RICHARD Now, in that area, did people still believe at that time, in 1992, in witchcraft? MR TLADI Yes, they did. MR RICHARD Now I am correct that you have been sitting, waiting for you matter to be heard for two days now? Is that not correct? You have been waiting in this hall? MR TLADI I was not present yesterday. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now when I use the word moloi and ngaka, do you understand what I mean? MR TLADI Yes, I do. MR RICHARD Would you please tell us what a moloi is? MR TLADI A witch is somebody who is against the people's rights, he is the person who is suppressing people's rights. MR RICHARD In what way? How does a moloi suppress people's rights? MR TLADI He doesn't want people to do progressive things. MR RICHARD How does a moloi prevent people doing progressive things, what does a moloi use to prevent people doing progressive things? MR TLADI He uses muti. MR RICHARD What else besides suppressing rights, can a moloi in your belief system do, can a moloi do harm, kill somebody, make somebody sick? MR TLADI Even if he does not kill, he can make a person to be ill. MR RICHARD Now, for what reasons would you go and see a ngaka, a sangoma? MR TLADI We will go to a sangoma to find out what was happening. MR RICHARD And how would a sangoma find out what was happening? MR TLADI He is able to see or to read the divine bones. MR RICHARD And then if there is trouble in a neighbourhood, caused by a moloi or something, how would the ngaka, sorry the ngaka correct, what would the ngaka say? MR TLADI May you please repeat the question, I do not understand the question? MR RICHARD I have asked you the question that if a member in a village such as Maroshane wanted to know why something was wrong, how would that person go about it, you said they would go to a sangoma which is also known as an ngaka. That person then would use a method of divination such as bone throwing and come up with an answer. What sorts of answers would the ngaka come up with? MR TLADI He will give answers such as confirmation that that person is a witch. MR RICHARD Now on the 20th of August 1992 as is apparent from the record, a meeting was called in Maroshane to discuss a problem, what was the problem? MR TLADI The problem concerned the death of youths in the village. MR RICHARD These youths in the village, from what did they die? MR TLADI Some of them would become ill and die. MR RICHARD And others? You say some became ill and died, what happened to others? MR TLADI That is how I know how some of them died. MR RICHARD At page 21 of the bundle, when the Magistrate who convicted you, gave judgement and sentence, he made a comment, it was further said that this was during the same period when four young people had died mysteriously. Do you remember that? MR TLADI Yes, I do. MR RICHARD Now, were you aware of any political affiliation of that these four young people had? MR TLADI I only know of two youths, but I don't know how the other two youths died. MR RICHARD My question was did you know of the political, not method of death, the political affiliation of any of these youths that had died mysteriously? MR TLADI I only knew one. MR RICHARD What was his political affiliation or membership? MR TLADI He was the supporter of the ANC. MR RICHARD Now, it is said that these people had died mysteriously, why do you say the deaths were mysterious? MR TLADI May you please repeat the question? MR RICHARD The question is in the criminal proceedings, when you were sentenced to imprisonment, you said that either you or the community found the fact that four people had died mysterious, that they had died mysteriously, my question is, shy did you and others believe that their death was mysterious or strange? MR TLADI What was mysterious about that was because we were with those people and the following day, we learnt that they were dead. MR RICHARD Thank you. ADV SANDI Weren't those people sick at the time you were with them and subsequently learnt that they had died? INTERPRETER Honourable Chairperson, I really do not know what the applicant is saying, may I request that he become more audible. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tladi, you must speak, take that microphone closer to where you are sitting and then you must try to lift your voice, speak a bit louder so that the Interpreter can hear you in the box there. If you don't speak into the microphone, then he cannot hear, that box, you cannot hear from inside there. You can only hear on the headset, so you must speak loud so that he can hear you please. Do you understand? MR TLADI Okay. CHAIRPERSON Very well. ADV SANDI Do you want me to repeat the question? INTERPRETER Please Chair. ADV SANDI When you were with these people the night before you heard that they had died, that is the next day, weren't these people sick or were they in a perfectly healthy condition? MR TLADI They were healthy. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR RICHARD Where was this meeting held? MR TLADI This meeting was held at the church. MR RICHARD Who attended the meeting? MR TLADI There were many people who attended that meeting. MR RICHARD Were they members or supporters of any political organisation? MR TLADI Some of them were members of the ANC and others were just followers of the ANC. MR RICHARD Did you, how did they call the meeting, did you put up postcards or placards or was it spread by word of mouth? MR TLADI We put the placards and some of them were put at the shops. MR RICHARD What was talked about at the meeting? MR TLADI We were talking about witchcraft and the death of one of the youths. ADV SANDI Sorry, in your placards, who did you say was invited to come and attend the meeting? MR TLADI The youth were invited on those placards. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR RICHARD Did the placards have any reference to any political party on them? Did the placard say the meeting was being called by the Democratic Party, the PAC, the ANC or just say that there was a meeting being called? MR TLADI These placards were put there by the ANC, but all the people were invited. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now my question was at the meeting things were talked about, what was said, what were people talking about? MR TLADI They were talking about witchcraft and the death of youths and what should be done about that. MR RICHARD Who spoke at the meeting, can you give us a list of names? MR TLADI One of them was Rinco Masimola. MR RICHARD Did other people talk? MR TLADI And Leonard Masimola also. MR RICHARD And anybody else? MR TLADI And Simon Rapolai. MR RICHARD Anyone else? MR TLADI And Nose Mahatsi. MR RICHARD Can you remember anyone else? MR TLADI And Jomo. MR RICHARD Were there more people that spoke? MR TLADI Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD These people that you have mentioned, did they belong to a political party? MR TLADI They were the supporters of the ANC. MR RICHARD How did you know that? MR TLADI Because they knew everything about the ANC. MR RICHARD Did they say they were from the ANC? MR TLADI They were supporters of the ANC. MR RICHARD Thank you. ADV SANDI Sorry, did they hold any specific portfolio's in the ANC? MR TLADI I only know one who had a position in the ANC. MR RICHARD Who was that? MR TLADI That is Rinco Masimola. MR RICHARD What position did he have? MR TLADI He was a Speaker. MR RICHARD What does the Speaker do? MR TLADI He was the person who normally addressed the youth. He will always give speeches at meetings. MR RICHARD Now I don't want to know what each one of these various people, before I come to that, one next question, how many people attended the meeting, approximately? MR TLADI There were many people, there could be more than 100. MR RICHARD Now, I don't want to know what each speaker said, but when they spoke of the death of these four young men, what did they say in short, in summary? MR TLADI May you please repeat that question, I don't understand the question? MR RICHARD The meeting was called to discuss as you have said the problem of witches and I have understood and I would like you to confirm the question of the death of these four young men. Am I correct, yes or no? MR TLADI That is correct. MR RICHARD These various people spoke, I don't want to know what each one of them said, I want to know in summary, what did the speakers say about the death of the four young men in short? MR TLADI They were asking the people who were attending the meeting, that we should donate R10-00 so that we could go to a sangoma who will tell us who were responsible for their deaths. MR RICHARD Thank you. did anyone say that that is a stupid idea and shouldn't be done? MR TLADI We all agreed. MR RICHARD My next question is what did the speakers in summary say about moloi's, witches? MR TLADI They were saying that if those people can be caught, they should be killed. MR RICHARD Why did they say that? MR TLADI Because many youths were dying in the village. CHAIRPERSON Do I understand the belief correctly that you can only catch these people with the assistance of a sangoma? MR TLADI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON It is not possible for a normal person to be able to see a witch, you must be helped by a sangoma, would that be right? MR TLADI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. MR RICHARD Now, did anyone talk about witches in a political context? MR TLADI May you please repeat the question? MR RICHARD You were speaking about going to a sangoma to find out who was a witch, I have asked another question, did anyone say anything about witches in a political context? Do you understand the question? MR TLADI Yes, I do. They were saying that a witch is like an impimpi, and those are the people who should be killed. MR RICHARD Who was saying that? Was it lots of people or just one person? MR TLADI Those were the people who were at the stage in that church. MR RICHARD So was it one person who said that, two people, four or lots of people? MR TLADI There were many people who were saying that. MR RICHARD Do you remember the names of any people who said that? MR TLADI Yes, I do remember some. MR RICHARD What were the people's names? MR TLADI Skinosi Mhlatsi. MR RICHARD And who else? MR TLADI Simon Rapolai. MR RICHARD And who else? MR TLADI And Georgina. MR RICHARD And more people who said that? MR TLADI Yes, there were some, but I do not remember their names. ADV SANDI Sorry, maybe you are proceeding on to something else, I do not know. Just one question on this. These people whose names you have mentioned, did they have anything to do with any political organisation as far as you were aware at the time? MR TLADI They were supporting the ANC. MR RICHARD Did anyone argue against them when they said that witches were the same as impimpi's, and should be killed? MR TLADI No one disagreed with them. MR RICHARD What was decided as a result of the discussions at the meeting? MR TLADI A decision was taken that all the people in the village should donate R10-00 so that a sangoma can be consulted. MR RICHARD Did people donate the R10-00 each? MR TLADI Yes, they did. MR RICHARD Then, what was the R10-00 going to be used for? MR TLADI This R10-00's were going to be used to pay for the sangoma. MR RICHARD How much money was that that you collected? MR TLADI It was more than R1 000-00. MR RICHARD In your statement, page 4 of the bundle, you say "... two days after the meeting some people went to see the witch-doctor ..." do you know how many people, do you remember how many people went to see and what the witch-doctor's name was? MR TLADI Yes, I do remember. MR RICHARD How many people left to see him? MR TLADI On the first day the people who went to see the sangoma were myself, I was present and Oric Mahlezwani, the third one was Georgina, I forgot her surname. The fourth one was Addis Maputha. The fifth one was Dinosi Mhlatsi and the sixth one was Tseisi Tladi, the seventh one was Frederick Mhlatsi. MR RICHARD Who were the others? MR TLADI The eight one was Jomo. MR RICHARD How many people in total were there? MR TLADI We were all 15 and the 16th was the driver of this kombi. MR RICHARD Now, did you get to see a witch-doctor? MR TLADI No, we did not see the doctor. MR RICHARD Did you talk to him though? MR TLADI No, the doctor was not present when we arrived at his place, that is the first time when we went to see him, he was not present at his place. MR RICHARD Did you leave a message that you had been there or make an arrangement that you would come back? MR TLADI Yes, we did leave the message. MR RICHARD Did you come back to the same person or somebody else? MR TLADI The following day we returned to the same doctor. MR RICHARD Did you see him this time, did you talk to his this time? MR TLADI He was not present. MR RICHARD Did you ever get to see him? MR TLADI No, we did not. MR RICHARD Did you ever get to see any moloi or witch-doctor? MR TLADI It was decided that we should go and see another doctor at Sansabela and we went there because it was not far from our village and it was not far from the first doctor that we went to see. MR RICHARD I work out that this is the third attempt to see somebody, on this the third attempt, did you get to see this person? MR TLADI Yes, we did. MR RICHARD What did you tell the moloi, the ngaka, not the moloi, the sangoma. CHAIRPERSON What was his name? MR TLADI He was Mr Theledi. CHAIRPERSON What was he, was he a sangoma or was he a witch-doctor? MR TLADI He was a witch-doctor. MR RICHARD Is that a moloi or ngaka? MR TLADI He is the witch-doctor. MR RICHARD Was he a good person or a bad person? MR TLADI He was a good person. MR RICHARD Did you pay him the money? MR TLADI We did not pay him because he told us that ... MR RICHARD What did he tell you? MR TLADI He told us that he is not the person who can be able to help us, because we know the people who are doing those things in our village, so he is not in a position to help us, so we left. MR RICHARD Before you say you left, what did he say you should do? MR TLADI He told us that on our way, there will be something that will surprise us inside the kombi, we will see something surprising, but he told us to go ahead and go back because there was nothing that was going to harm us. MR RICHARD Did you find anything in the kombi? MR TLADI Yes. MR RICHARD What did you find in the kombi? MR TLADI We had a problem because one of us who was a leader, told us that she wanted to disembark the kombi, to go alone, and then we did not allow her to do that. We could not leave her at that place, because it was at night. MR RICHARD What did you find surprising? MR TLADI What surprised us was the fact that she wanted to disembark the kombi, she did not arrive with us at the village. MR RICHARD Did she ever get out of the kombi after getting into it? MR TLADI No, she did not because we did not allow her to do that. Then at the end, she stopped with her actions. MR RICHARD And how did she, what do you mean she didn't arrive with you at the village? MR TLADI I was also surprised why she did not want to arrive with us at the village, because we went together. MR RICHARD Did she just disappear from inside the kombi? MR TLADI No, she did not disappear. MR RICHARD Then, when you say she did not arrive back in your village with you, what did you mean? MR TLADI I say that she did not want to arrive with us at the village. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but did she eventually arrive with you, back in the village? MR TLADI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Good. Take it from there Mr Richard. MR RICHARD Thank you. When you left the sangoma, Theledi, what did you think you should do next, what did he tell you to do about the witchcraft problem? MR TLADI He did not tell us what to do because he said to us we know those people. MR RICHARD Now, what did you decide to do because of what he said? MR TLADI We went back, straight to the church and the youth were still there. MR RICHARD What did you do there? MR TLADI When we arrived at the church, we gave them the report, we told them that we did not find the first doctor and then we decided to go and see Mr Theledi and Mr Theledi told us that we know the people who were causing the problem in the village. MR RICHARD What did the meeting then decide as a result of that information? MR TLADI It was decided that some people should be sent to buy petrol. MR RICHARD What were you going to do with the petrol? MR TLADI They said we were going to burn the witches. MR RICHARD Who did you decide were the witches, who were the witches? MR TLADI The witch-doctor did not tell us their names. MR RICHARD Who did you decide the witches, you were going to burn, were? MR TLADI May you please repeat the question? MR RICHARD You had bought petrol with which you were going to burn the witches. Mr Theledi had not told you who the witches were. CHAIRPERSON Yes, just keep it right there, and did you then burn any witches? MR TLADI Yes, there is one that we burnt, but we suspected that she was a witch because Mr Theledi didn't tell us their names. CHAIRPERSON All right Mr Richard, try and take it from there. MR RICHARD Why did you decide that that particular person was a witch if Mr Theledi hadn't told you that she was a witch? MR TLADI I was also surprised because the crowd just went straight to that person. MR RICHARD What do you mean when you say the "car just went straight to that person", please tell us? MR TLADI May you please repeat the question? MR RICHARD You said that your car just went straight to a person's house, is that not correct? INTERPRETER I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson, I interpreted the crowd not the car. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tladi, you said the crowd went straight to somebody's house, is that right. Now first tell us who is this person? MR TLADI She was Mrs Bathule Baphela. CHAIRPERSON Bathule Baphela. Let him tell us exactly what the movements were. MR RICHARD Please continue. MR TLADI As we were going there to Mrs Baphela's place, it was after six o'clock. When we arrived, some members of the crowd entered the house and others surrounded the house. We were together with her last born son, then we asked him to go and call his mother. He entered the house and called his mother, his mother was with his father. His parents came out, his mother and his father and when he came out, he had an axe in his hand and his father instructed him to leave that axe so that we could listen to what these people wanted. I also encouraged him to leave that axe. I made it clear to him that there is nothing that he could do to that people because there were so many people in that yard. He came with his parents, his mother and his father. I was with them in front of the house, the four of us. It was myself and Mrs Bathule Baphela, her son and Mr Baphela, the senior. We were facing the crowd. Mr Baphela, before he could ask any questions, I asked them why have they come here because they are now frightening the family. I wanted to know why are they not saying anything to him. That is when they started telling me that they came here because of witchcraft and then he asked them who was a witch. They told him that his wife was a witch. He told the crowd that because he was not always at home, he was working elsewhere, "I ask for forgiveness" and soon thereafter chaos ensued, they started throwing stones and Mr Baphela was also struck by a knopkierie, I could not see who struck him with the knopkierie. It was all chaos in the yard because people were throwing stones. I almost injured myself because I was standing with them. MR RICHARD What happened to Mrs Baphela? MR TLADI Mrs Baphela was taken by the crowd, they wanted to know from her who were her accomplices and others were having petrol and they were giving her petrol to drink. As we went out of the yard ... MR RICHARD What happened as you went out of the yard? MR TLADI They were asking her questions, they wanted to know her accomplices and her response was that "I am not a witch, instead I am being bewitched because they even killed my son". MR RICHARD What did the crowd do? MR TLADI They forced her to drink the petrol and dosing her with petrol. As we were passing her next-door neighbour, she tried to run away and she was struck by a knopkierie, Freddie struck her with a knopkierie and she fell down. MR RICHARD And what happened next? MR TLADI I don't know whether she lost consciousness, I don't know whether it was because she was struck with a knopkierie, but she was taken out of that yard. They were dragging her and they were singing songs normally sung by comrades. MR RICHARD What were the songs? MR TLADI The one that I remember is the one that says (indistinct) MR RICHARD They dragged her out of the yard, what happened next? MR TLADI She was dragged out of the yard and at that time there was nothing that I could do or explain, so the only thing that I could do at that time was to take that petrol container and douse her with petrol. I did that. I doused her with petrol. MR RICHARD What did you do next? Did you or somebody else set fire to the petrol? MR TLADI After I had done that, I retreated but I realised that she was already burning. I didn't see who actually burnt her. MR RICHARD Why did people decide that Mrs Baphela was a witch, why did they suspect her of being a witch? Was she doing anything suspicious, was there anything strange about her? MR TLADI There is nothing that she did because I have never seen her doing anything that would make her to be suspected as a witch. MR SIBANYONI Why did you personally douse her with petrol? MR TLADI I don't know what made me douse her with petrol. MR RICHARD Did anyone tell you to do that? MR TLADI No. CHAIRPERSON Was it necessary to do so? MR TLADI It was necessary for me to do that, like I have explained before, I really do not know why I did that. CHAIRPERSON That is why I am asking you, they have already given her petrol to drink, they have already doused her with petrol, was it necessary for you to also douse her with petrol? MR TLADI It was not necessary for me to do that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Richard? MR RICHARD Thank you. Sir, there is only one last line of questioning that I want to go down with. You said you were surprised that the crowd went straight to Mrs Baphela's house. Why were you surprised? MR TLADI What surprised me was that I did not know why they were going straight to her place, like I have explained before, Mr Theledi did not reveal the name of any person who was responsible for witchcraft in our village. That is what surprised me, because even when we arrived at the church, we did not name any person as a witch. MR RICHARD Were you privately aware of anything that Mrs Baphela might have done to make people suspicious of her, jealous of her or believe that she was a witch? MR TLADI No, there is nothing that I know. MR RICHARD Now, why do you think the killing of Mrs Baphela was political? MR TLADI It is because the way this incident took place, everything was performed by the comrades and the ANC Youth League and the way they were toyi-toying. MR RICHARD Did you simply get carried away? MR TLADI May you please explain the question, I don't understand the question. MR RICHARD You were part of a crowd of people who went to Mrs Baphela's house, there was ANC youth and others and you knew that you had been trying to find a witch? You threw petrol on Mrs Baphela, were you simply carried away by the emotion and the feelings of the crowd at the time? ADV SANDI Sorry before you answer that, I thought he has told us for at least about two times, that he does not know why he did that? MR RICHARD Thank you, I withdraw the question. In your application for amnesty at page 2 you say "... in this way we were ordered to burn her by the leader Rinco Masimola and I and Simon Rapula, Leonard Masimola, John Mekameng and others at plus minus 100 in number ... what do you mean by that? What did Mr Rinco Masimola order you to do? MR TLADI He told us that people like her should be burnt. MR RICHARD Did he mention her name? MR TLADI No, he did not. MR RICHARD Then why, what do you mean by "people like her", what was she like? MR TLADI Are you referring to Rinco or Mrs Baphela? MR RICHARD You have said he ordered that "people like her" should be treated as you did. What do you mean by saying "people like her", what was she like? MR TLADI I explained before that she was just suspected to be a witch. MR SIBANYONI What were Rinco Masimola's specific words, what did Masimola say? MR TLADI He said people who are involved in witchcraft should be burnt and killed. MR RICHARD Thank you. Then I go to paragraphs 10(a) and 10(b) at page 2 - "state political objective sought to be achieved", there you stated "... as I mentioned, I was an instrumental organ, I would have to do whatever I was ordered to do, do many activities achieved by the organisation, part of liberation ..." And at paragraph (b) you carry on to say in reply to the question "your justification for regarding such acts as one associated with a political objective", you answer was - "... it was not my intention, it was the order of the organisation as it was happening throughout the country. I would not have to do it on my own, it was a political procedure as the organisation was against this." What did you mean when you wrote that? Are you meaning that if you were ordered to kill witches as part of the liberation, you would kill witches? MR TLADI That is correct. MR RICHARD Then at the end of the paragraph (b) "... it was a political procedure as the organisation was against this." Are you saying that you believed as at 1992, that the ANC was against witches? MR TLADI I believe the ANC was against impimpi's. MR RICHARD Did you believe that witches had to be dealt with the same way as impimpi's? MR TLADI Yes, I do. MR RICHARD And then when you say "it was not my intention, it was an order of the organisation, it was happening throughout the country", what was happening throughout the country? MR TLADI Impimpi's were burnt throughout the country. MR RICHARD What happened to witches throughout the northern province? MR TLADI They were also burnt. MR RICHARD Is that what was happening throughout the country, and you would not have done a witch burning on your own? MR TLADI Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. Have you got any questions, Mr Mokoena? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA Thank you Chairperson, I do have some questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Go ahead. MR MOKOENA Mr Tladi, to which political party was the deceased affiliated? MR TLADI I do not know which organisation she was supporting. MR MOKOENA Now did you consider her as your political opponent? Did you consider her as your political opponent? MR TLADI I have already explained that I did not know in which organisation she was. MR MOKOENA Okay. Let me for the purposes of this question give you the benefit of the doubt that witches were political opponents of say the ANC. Now, given the fact that she was not even pointed out by Theledi, she was not even named by Theledi, would you still say, would you agree with me that she was never a political opponent? MR TLADI Yes, I would agree with you. MR MOKOENA If you agree to that one, would you also agree with me if I say at the meeting when a spontaneous decision was taken to go and burn her, that the mob could have been influenced by one or two individuals who had personal grudges against her? MR TLADI I would agree with you. MR MOKOENA Let me come to the beginning of your testimony, what would be your comment if someone comes here to testify and say that as at that date, 1992, there was no structure at Maroshane, ANC structure? MR TLADI I would not disagree with him because I was not residing there all the time, I was working outside. MR MOKOENA If called upon to testify, Rinco Masimola will deny that he was ever a leader of the Youth League of that area. MR TLADI I would not agree with him because he was the person who was addressing the meeting as a leader there. MR MOKOENA How many ANC meetings did you attend? Let's forget about these ones where you sought to identify witches. MR TLADI I have said this before, I was not residing at home because I was working elsewhere. MR MOKOENA Did you ever attend any ANC meeting besides the meetings in issue here? MR TLADI Yes, there were others that I attended. MR MOKOENA Can you, may you maybe just give an estimate of such meetings? MR TLADI It could be three meetings. ADV SANDI Sorry that is not very clear to me, where was that, where did you attend those approximately three meetings, was it at Maroshane or at this place where you say you were working and where you say you resided also? MR TLADI At the place where I was working. ADV SANDI Where was this place? MR TLADI I started working at Middelburg, (indistinct) mine and Pretoria and Johannesburg. ADV SANDI Should one understand that you mean that you never attended any meetings at Maroshane until this particular incident happened? MR TLADI May you please repeat the question? ADV SANDI Before the incident you are talking about here today, did you attend any meetings at Maroshane? MR TLADI No. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Mr Mokoena. MR MOKOENA Shall I, will I be correct to say that even these consumer boycotts and strikes you talked about, you are referring to the places where you were residing and not at Maroshane? MR TLADI That is correct. MR MOKOENA Okay, so if somebody comes to testify to the effect that there was never a consumer boycott or strike at Maroshane, what would be your comment on that one? MR TLADI I have explained before that I have agreed that I would agree with somebody when he says the ANC was not present at that time. MR MOKOENA Okay. How would you associate this killing, the burning with a political motive? MR TLADI I associate it with politics because the procedure that was followed was the normal procedure that was used by the Youth League because they were also toyi-toying. MR MOKOENA Are you suggesting that just toyi-toying, proceeding to a particular person, that becomes a political motive? MR TLADI I do not understand the question, will you please repeat it? MR MOKOENA Are you saying that proceeding to a particular person, toyi-toying would justify that as a political motive? MR TLADI That is associated with politics because ANC leaders were present. MR MOKOENA Okay, as I said, I am going to call someone to come and testify that there was no such an ANC structure in that area. CHAIRPERSON That doesn't seem to be in dispute, the applicant has conceded that. MR MOKOENA Okay, thank you Chairperson. Mr Tladi, you cannot deny that this act was purely a criminal act, can you? MR TLADI I do not understand you. MR MOKOENA Let me put it in a more simple way. What would be your comment if I said to you this was just pure a criminal act, it had nothing to do with politics? MR TLADI I would answer you by saying that it was not a criminal act because we were so many there, and we did that as comrades, all of us. MR MOKOENA Okay. Mr Baphela is going to come and testify that this arose out of jealousy because of the standard of living of his family. MR TLADI I would agree with him there. MR MOKOENA Thank you honourable Chairperson, no more questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Mokoena. Ms Mtanga, is there anything ... MS MTANGA I have no questions Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Does the Panel want to raise anything further? MR SIBANYONI Not from me Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV SANDI Nothing from me, Mr Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any re-examination Mr Richard? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD I have two questions. At that time did you have knowledge of any other incident in any other area where alleged witches were killed? MR TLADI I do not understand the question, will you please repeat? MR RICHARD As at August 1992, had you heard or did you know of any other incident in any other place, where a crowd of people had gone out and killed somebody they thought to be a witch? MR TLADI Yes, I did. MR RICHARD How many such incidents did you know about? MR TLADI Three of them. MR RICHARD Where did those incidents take place? MR TLADI In Skinot and also in Rampahlela. MR RICHARD Did you know people who had been part of those incidents? MR TLADI I do not know their names. MR RICHARD How did you learn about them, through the newspaper, people talking? CHAIRPERSON Is this new evidence? MR RICHARD Sorry, I leave the question. How many times did you hear Rinco speak at a meeting? MR TLADI I only learnt about people being burnt at other places on radio, I have never heard Rinco saying that. MR RICHARD How many times did you hear Rinco speak at meetings, nevermind about what you heard on the radio? CHAIRPERSON Can't you remember? MR TLADI I do not remember. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Chairman. Were you aware of any incidents similar to this one that had occurred at Maroshane? MR TLADI I do not remember. ADV SANDI Can I take it that you are unable to give any justification for the killing of this person? Isn't that the position? MR TLADI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes, Mr Richard, is that the evidence for the applicant? MR RICHARD That is the evidence. CHAIRPERSON Is that his case as well? MR RICHARD That is his case. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Will any other party present any evidence in this matter? MR MOKOENA Yes honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What do you intend doing, Mr Mokoena? Whose evidence do you intend to tender? MR MOKOENA Pieter Baphela. CHAIRPERSON Is that the husband of the deceased? Is this in regard to this question of the motive for the attack on the family? MR MOKOENA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that is as I understand his testimony, he has conceded that. It looks as if, on what you have put to him there, there is nothing that is in dispute. Under those circumstances, on the face of it, that testimony wouldn't really add very much to the incident. If that is the only point that you wish to emphasise on, on the testimony of Mr Baphela. MR MOKOENA That was the only point. CHAIRPERSON Yes. I think that one is common cause, so I don't think you need to be concerned about that. MR MOKOENA Okay. CHAIRPERSON Is there anybody else that you had in mind, or is it only Mr Baphela? Because as I say it appears to me as if there is no dispute really. MR MOKOENA Yes, I also had Rinco. CHAIRPERSON Rinco yes, but even there, there is no real dispute. And besides, I mean the tribunal is not likely to make a finding that would directly impact on Mr Rinco's situation. MR MOKOENA Okay. Then that will be all. CHAIRPERSON And I assume Ms Mtanga, you are not intending to present any evidence? MS MTANGA That is so Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Richard, have you got any submissions? MR RICHARD IN ARGUMENT I do have some submissions. From various reports that we all have copies of, we know that during that period in the area where this applicant resided, and worked, there were cases where groups, crowds of people decided to attack and injure people they suspected of being witches. It was a problem at that time. We then also have no reason to doubt that this particular applicant attended a meeting at Maroshane where the problem of witches was discussed. CHAIRPERSON Yes, his testimony is not in dispute on the build up. MR RICHARD And then the relevant factor in his case is that after an unsuccessful quest to find a sangoma or ngaka, he became part of a crowd that seized upon what appears to be an arbitrary suspect and burnt her to death. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think the question is was she a political opponent? MR RICHARD All I can argue in his support is that he was part of a crowd that descended upon this woman in the belief, unreasonable though it may have been, and unconnected with any linking evidence, that she was a witch. The man is clearly a simple person and I believe that his evidence that he would not have acted in this manner, unless it had been for that time, may be accepted as true. My submission on his behalf is that the inference that we can draw from the facts I have outlined is that contrary to his normal state of mind, he became possessed with the hysteria of that particular crowd and believed on the basis of superstition and background, that he was acting in accordance with an accepted political gender of killing witches. Unfortunately there is no evidence that I can take the argument further with. If I am challenged to say what evidence there is that links the subjected state of the applicant's mind I have nothing but that circumstantial evidence that I have outlined to argue on, and I will leave the matter in the hands of the Panel. As it pleases you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mokoena, have you got any submissions? MR MOKOENA Honourable Chairperson, I am not going to make any submission, I will leave the matter in the hands of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA I have no submissions to add, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Anything you wanted to add, Mr Richard? MR RICHARD Nothing further. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we have come to the end of the day, we have been forced to sit way beyond the normal sitting hours because of the circumstances that prevailed here in an attempt to catch up with the matters that we had on the roll and in an attempt to accommodate everybody who is inconvenienced by the continuation of the proceedings, particularly by the fact that a significant number of the applicants before us, are being transported by the Correctional Services from various centres and there are great difficulties in sometimes reaching the venue from the centres without problems. For that reason we have sat until we had completed this particular matter, which affected an applicant who has to be transported over some distance, back to Pretoria. As we have indicated, we are sitting in Middelburg in Mpumalanga. For that reason we have sat until this evening. However, having come to the end of the day's proceedings, we are not in a position to give a decision immediately, we believe it is in the interest of the process that we should adjourn at this stage. We will formulate a decision and will notify the parties as soon as that decision is available. We will endeavour not to delay the decision in the matter, unnecessarily as we try to do and get these decisions out as expeditiously as possibly under normal circumstances. We will therefore adjourn the proceedings and reconvene tomorrow morning at nine o'clock in order to deal with whatever remains to be dealt with on our record, on our hearing schedule. We again take the opportunity to thank the legal representatives for their assistance thus far, it is appreciated. We will then adjourn the proceedings until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS