amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 2000-05-22 JOHANNESBURG 1 DUMISANI MDLULWA AM6654/97 ARTILLERY ATTACK ON BASE IN WESTERN TRANSVAAL https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54209&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200522jh.htm CHAIRPERSON Good Morning. INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. CHAIRPERSON I caused a delay. I apologise to my colleagues and everybody present. We are hear to hear the first application of Dumisani Mdlulwa. My name is Motata. I will be chairing these proceedings and I'll ask my colleagues to introduce themselves for the record. I'll start on my right. ADV BOSMAN Adv Francis Bosman. ADV SIGODI Adv Sibongile Sigodi. CHAIRPERSON I will request the legal representatives to place themselves on record as well. We'll start with the applicant's legal representative. MR NYAWUZA Oupa Nyawuza, moving the application for the applicant. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nyawuza. MS COLERIDGE Lyn Coleridge appearing on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Chairperson, just before we start with this matter, I just want to place on record all the persons that were notified. We've notified the ANC Truth Desk, Mr Jo Modise as well as Mr Moloi in this instance, Chairperson. There is a representative, Patience Molekane, from the ANC Truth Desk here today, Chairperson. And then just in relation to the victims, General Slabbert from the SANDF has notified us and informed us that there were no victims in this matter and therefore it's also unopposed, Chairperson. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON May I just interrupt you, Ms Coleridge? I don't have any sound on my gadget, or device. I would request you, after they have attended to me, to repeat yourself. MS COLERIDGE That's in order, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON It would appear that the Panel's devices, all three of us, we don't get anything. Are the legal representatives okay with their devices? MR NYAWUZA No. CHAIRPERSON Should we take a short adjournment that we reorganise ourselves? We'll adjourn for five minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON May you repeat yourself? MS COLERIDGE Thank you Chairperson. I just want to place on record, in relation to the persons that were notified, the Secretary of the ANC was notified as well as Joe Modise and Mr Moloi. In relation to the victims ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ... (indistinct - no microphone) MS COLERIDGE In relation to the victims, General Slabbert from the SANDF has confirmed Chairperson, that there are no victims, no casualties in this matter and therefore it's unopposed. On page 22 of the bundle, there's a letter from the SANDF confirming the position. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Ms Coleridge. Before I call upon the legal representative for the applicant, I would make a request that all those who have these mobile phones, to switch them off, I must say personally they irritate me whilst they go on. For the advantage of all of us here to benefit out of the translations in the different languages, you should have this gadget or device, it's got different channels in it. I would say for English it's two, Afrikaans one and the other languages three and four. Mr Nyawuza, are you ready? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I am. CHAIRPERSON What language does the applicant wish to testify in? MR NYAWUZA He will testify in Xhosa. DUMISANI MDLULWA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you Adv Sigodi. Mr Nyawuza you may proceed. MR NYAWUZA Thank you Chair. EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA Mr Mdlulwa, you are here to apply for amnesty and from the application forms, the TRC application forms, you have made mention of application for an artillery attack as the Western Transvaal and a shoot-out at Port St Johns. Can you tell us what you're here for today? MR MDLULWA I'm here today for the artillery attack of the Western Transvaal. MR NYAWUZA What about the Port St Johns shoot-out? What happened to it? MR MDLULWA I have already appeared and I was given amnesty for that incident. MR NYAWUZA Mr Mdlulwa, can you briefly take us through what happened on the 3rd of May 1989? MR MDLULWA We were given orders by Comrade Jo Modise to go and attack the military base. It was before the 3rd and then on the 3rd we went there, it was during the night. We attacked. MR NYAWUZA How many were you? MR MDLULWA Plus minus twenty-four or twenty-five. MR NYAWUZA And where were you from and what mode of transport did you use? MR MDLULWA We were from Zambia and we went through Zimbabwe. From Zimbabwe we went to Botswana. That is where we got three Land Cruisers and we used them to cross the border. MR NYAWUZA What did you have as your armoury? What were you going to use to attack this base? MR MDLULWA We were armed with five mortars and two hundred and seventy shells. MR NYAWUZA And you got to these two Land Rovers and crossed the border into RSA. Take us through what happened when you got to this base. MR MDLULWA When we arrived at the firing position, as the reconnaissance group had told us, we deployed our cars and it was around about half-past two to half-past three when we started. After a while there were some stoppages and we had to retreat. MR NYAWUZA Did you retreat before you could attack the said base? MR MDLULWA No we retreated after we had attacked the base. MR NYAWUZA What is it that you used to attack this base? MR MDLULWA We used mortar shells. MR NYAWUZA And what was the main purpose that you had to attack this base, you know, why it and not other bases? MR MDLULWA Since the Movement had declared war against the apartheid government, we had to attack the bases that were seen as dangerous bases, so that is why we attacked that base. MR NYAWUZA What kind of threat did it pose to your struggle? MR MDLULWA There were soldiers that were next to the borders, so we thought that they were the soldiers that were patrolling there at the border, so we wanted them to be scared and there was also a radar system there, so we didn't want them to relax, or we didn't want them there. MR NYAWUZA So in actual fact you wanted to attack this base so that they can give way for your easy infiltration into the country, is that so? MR MDLULWA That is correct, Chairperson. MR NYAWUZA The weaponry that you had on this particular day, was it only to inflict partial damage to this base, or was it to bring the base to ashes? MR MDLULWA The kind of weapons that we had, we wanted to destroy the base. MR NYAWUZA To completely destroy it? MR MDLULWA Yes, that is correct. MR NYAWUZA Did you achieve that on that particular day? MR MDLULWA No, we didn't achieve that, but partly we achieved something because we read from the newspapers what happened there, but our aim, we didn't achieve our aim, we didn't destroy it completely. MR NYAWUZA Would you perhaps know what hindered your motive on this particular day? MR MDLULWA It was the stoppages of the weapons, that is why we had to retreat. MR NYAWUZA Can you put us in the light as to stoppages? What do you mean by stoppages? MR MDLULWA What I mean is, the weapon that you use, it happens sometimes when you are shooting, the weapon would not shoot, so something had to be done to that weapon, so during the war situation, you don't have a chance to look at the fault of the weapon, you have to retreat. MR NYAWUZA So you carried out this operation and what happened? What subsequently happened? INTERPRETER Can you please repeat your question, Sir? MR NYAWUZA You go to this area that you've been told to attack. You attack it and then what ultimately happened? How did you happen to be here today? Did you retreat, go back to where you came from, or you split? You know, just put us through to your attack and you stopped your attack and what happened thereafter? MR MDLULWA After that we retreated and we went back to Botswana so that we can go back to Zimbabwe and Zambia. MR NYAWUZA Did you on this particular day suffer any casualties, or did the SADF at the time, suffer any casualties? MR MDLULWA We didn't go there to find out whether there were casualties on the SADF side. As we retreated and amongst us there was a car that was involved in an accident and one comrade got injured. One car capsized and one comrade got injured and they were arrested. I'm not sure what happened to the person who was arrested. MR NYAWUZA Were you part of the - did you see the comrade that was injured at the time? MR MDLULWA No, I did not see him, I just heard from other comrades that were arrested because I was not in that group. MR NYAWUZA Are you saying you split when you retreated, because you're saying you were not in that group? Are you in essence saying you split when you retreated? MR MDLULWA Yes, we split but it was not our plan, but the cars were following each other and there was a gap between those cars. MR NYAWUZA Would you say today that what you did on the 3rd of May 1989, fell within the ambit of what the ANC, the Movement that you supported at the time, wanted to achieve? MR MDLULWA Yes, it was one of the motives of the ANC and we also received orders from the ANC. MR NYAWUZA Is there anything else that you would wish to add regarding your application? MR MDLULWA No, there's nothing I would like to add, that is all I have to say. MR NYAWUZA Thank you Committee Members, that's the evidence-in-chief of the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MDLULWA CHAIRPERSON Any questions Ms Coleridge? MS COLERIDGE Yes, thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE In your amnesty application you said you were an ANC MK member, an instructor. Where were you an instructor? MR MDLULWA In Angola. MS COLERIDGE Tell me, how long did it take for you to plan this operation, for you and your comrades? MR MDLULWA The planning was done by the top Commanders, so I don't know how long it took them. We were only briefed of what to do. MS COLERIDGE And how many days before the incident were you briefed? MR MDLULWA I cannot remember how many days, but we knew about this attack two weeks before the day of the incident. MS COLERIDGE Did you go on a reconnaissance as well during the two week period? MR MDLULWA No, I did not go. MS COLERIDGE Do you know the name of your comrade that was injured and that was subsequently arrested? Do you know his name? MR MDLULWA Since we were working underground, we were using Pseudonyms. I only know him as Blues, I don't know his real name. MS COLERIDGE And can you just explain to us, what was your role? What did you do on that specific day? Did you shoot? Did you throw any hand grenades? Can you just be specific regarding your role? MR MDLULWA I was planting the shells of the mortar. MS COLERIDGE Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Coleridge. Any re-examination, Mr Nyawuza? MR NYAWUZA Thank you Mr Chair. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA Regarding the reconnaissance, who usually did the reconnaissance on missions like this? MR MDLULWA It was the people that were appointed by the High Command. MR NYAWUZA Did the people that were appointed by the High Commander, form part of the people that were to carry out the attack? MR MDLULWA Yes, because they were going to lead the unit to that point. MR NYAWUZA And you've stated that there were about twenty-five of you on this attack, how many would form part of the twenty-five? Just estimate. INTERPRETER Can you please repeat your question Sir? MR NYAWUZA I'm saying, he stated that there were about twenty-five of them when they went to attack this base, so how many of the people who had done the reconnaissance would form part of the people who were to attack the area? MR MDLULWA Three. MR NYAWUZA No further re-examination thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Adv Sigodi, any questions to the applicant? ADV SIGODI Just to check on the acts for which you have applied for. In your application form you've mentioned the Port St Johns shoot-out. You haven't made any mention of it, or have you withdrawn that application? CHAIRPERSON He's got amnesty for that. ADV SIGODI You've got amnesty. That's all that I wanted. CHAIRPERSON Adv Bosman? ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mdlulwa, who was in charge of the group that carried out the attack? MR MDLULWA General Lombard Moloi. ADV BOSMAN And do you know whether anybody else in that group had applied for amnesty at all for this incident? MR MDLULWA I don't know because we are all over South Africa, we are not communicating with each other. ADV BOSMAN Yes, thank you. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Lastly Mr Mdlulwa, I see it's Western Transvaal. I just wanted to know precisely where in the Western Transvaal, it's such a vast area. Could you give an indication where this artillery plant was in the Western Transvaal? MR MDLULWA That camp or that base, I'm not sure whether it is in Bophuthatswana or next to Bophuthatswana, but it was in the Western, but it was a Transvaal Command, it was commanding the whole area of Transvaal. CHAIRPERSON Coming to South Africa from Botswana, did you use the conventional border gates to gain entry? MR MDLULWA No we cut the fence and then went through. CHAIRPERSON Could you give us an indication approximately where, I would tell you that I'm familiar with two border posts, Romatlabama and the Zeerust border posts. Could you give us an indication where you cut the fence, or if, let's start from here, when you left Botswana, which town did you leave firstly in Botswana, after entering from Zambia - from Zimbabwe? MR MDLULWA Francis Town. CHAIRPERSON And from there, which entry point did you use with reference to the two border posts I've mentioned earlier? MR MDLULWA Since I was not familiar with that place, but the last town was Lumbadse, the direction was pointing Mafikeng in Botswana, so we crossed the border in between. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nyawuza, anything arising from what the Panel asked? MR NYAWUZA No questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON Ms Coleridge, anything arising from what the Panel asked? MS COLERIDGE No questions thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE CHAIRPERSON Is that your case? MR NYAWUZA That's the case for the applicant. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON No witnesses? MR NYAWUZA We don't have any witnesses to call. CHAIRPERSON Ms Coleridge. MS COLERIDGE Chairperson as I stated previously, this matter is unopposed and I'm not calling any other witnesses, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Are we in a position to give us a few submissions? MR NYAWUZA I think we are. CHAIRPERSON I'll start with you, since you are the first one ready. MR NYAWUZA IN ARGUMENT Chairperson and Committee Members, the evidence that has been given before us today shows strictly that this was a matter that was sanctioned by the leaders of the ANC at the time, being Joe Modise and the person referred to as Lombard Moloi and the fact that even the army base that was attacked, didn't show any interest in opposing the matter, they, in my opinion, show that they are aware that this fell within the ambit of what the ANC stood for at the time. Taking the matter further, on page twenty-eight there's a report - on page twenty-four sorry, there's some submission by the ANC in the Maibuye, I don't know what the date of the Maibuye is, where this matter is addressed by Comrade Modise who the applicant has referred to as a person who gave them instructions to attack ...(indistinct - background coughing) and just beneath Comrade Modise, it's just that the paragraphs are not properly divided, just above: "Part of the plan included the minding of all the approaches to the base, save the retreat route", we are told that it reads as follows: "From our side we suffered only one casualty, one comrade got injured during the retreat and was subsequently captured." This is what the applicant before this Committee has referred to in his testimony-in-chief. There's absolutely no question as regards the motive of this attack and it's our submission that it fell within the ambit of a political motive being to get rid of this radar station that was impeding the infiltration of the country at the time and it was seen by the leaders at the time as the main focal point. You know, the point at which if it is attacked, then it was going to facilitate the easy infiltration of the MKs and our submission goes as far as saying we believe that it was for a political motive. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any questions? ADV BOSMAN No questions Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ms Coleridge. MS COLERIDGE Chairperson, I have no further submissions to add, I concur with my learned colleague, Mr Oupa Nyawuza and I leave the decision in the hands of the Committee. Thank you. NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS COLERIDGE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. This concludes the first matter. It is customary that we give written decisions and we shall reserve our decision in this regard and it shall be delivered shortly. MR NYAWUZA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON I see it's just past eleven. We shall take a twenty minute adjournment for tea. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS