amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-22 PINETOWN 1 PHINDA WALTER KWEYAMA AM7255/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54213&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200522pi.htm JUDGE POTGIETER You are Phinda Walter Kweyama, is that right? PHINDA WALTER KWEYAMA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY Thank you. Mr Kweyama, is it correct that you had originally applied for indemnity relating to a robbery that took place at the Isipingo gun shop on the 22nd of April 1993? MR KWEYAMA That's correct. MR PANDAY And is it also correct that you had then received correspondence from the Department of Justice, advising that you would all have to wait for the promulgation of an Act, in order to entertain those applications? MR KWEYAMA That's correct. MR PANDAY Now after having applied for indemnity, did you thereafter fill out an application form for amnesty? MR KWEYAMA That is correct. MR PANDAY And what did you do with that form after having filled it out? MR KWEYAMA I gave it to prison warders to forward it to the TRC. MR PANDAY And since having forwarded that application to the TRC, did you receive any correspondence thereafter from the TRC? MR KWEYAMA No, I did not receive any correspondence, except for one I recently received when I was already out of prison. MR PANDAY When you say you didn't receive any correspondence and you only recently received - I lost the interpretation there. MR KWEYAMA Yes, when I was in the prison I didn't get any letter from TRC. MR PANDAY Then how did you come to be appearing at the applications, amnesty applications? INTERPRETER Please repeat that question. MR KWEYAMA I had submitted a form in terms of amnesty. MR PANDAY And you said that you received no correspondence thereafter until you were released. CHAIRPERSON I think he said he did receive correspondence lately, after his release. MR PANDAY What I'm queering, Mr Chairman, is as to what correspondence did he receive. CHAIRPERSON Was that the correspondence that told you about this application? MR KWEYAMA That is correct. MR PANDAY Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Kweyama, is it correct that in respect of the armed robbery at the Isipingo gun shop, you were convicted and sentenced to a term of 6 years. MR KWEYAMA That's correct. MR PANDAY And you have served that term of imprisonment. MR KWEYAMA That is correct. MR PANDAY Mr Kweyama, at the time of the robbery, did you belong to any political organisation? MR KWEYAMA That's correct. MR PANDAY And in what capacity were you part - sorry, what was your political organisation called? MR KWEYAMA I was the member of the ANC and an activist. MR PANDAY And did you have any membership card? MR KWEYAMA Yes, before I was a UDF, ...(indistinct) MR PANDAY And then thereafter you joined the ANC. MR KWEYAMA Yes. MR PANDAY Now do you recall your ANC membership number? MR KWEYAMA No, I don't recall it. MR PANDAY If I have to show you on page - just bear with me, on page 52 you reflect a membership card number: 1878511. MR KWEYAMA Yes. MR PANDAY Would that be your ANC membership number at the time? MR KWEYAMA Yes. MR PANDAY Okay. Now as a member of the ANC, what sort of position did you hold, or job designation did you hold with the ANC? MR KWEYAMA I did not hold a position, but I was an active person within the ANC. MR PANDAY When you mention active, what sort of activity did you engage in? MR KWEYAMA I participated in all matters relating to ANC, as I was also a member of the SDU. MR PANDAY Now in particular the event that took place on the 22nd of April of 1993, you've heard the evidence that was tendered by Mr Shangase, do you confirm firstly, that that was a true account of the events, that he tendered? MR KWEYAMA Yes, I do. On the 22nd of April 1993, I was the driver of the vehicle that we were going to use to rob the gun shop. We left early in the morning so that we were there prior to the opening of the shop. My co-applicants alighted the vehicle and I remain in the vehicle. I did not see them whilst they were inside the shop, but I just waited for them to signal for me when they had completed the job. MR PANDAY Now Mr Shangase mentioned that you were designated as the driver, can you confirm who designated your position as the driver? MR KWEYAMA It was the Unit Commander, Sipho Mgadi. MR PANDAY And on that day in question were you also armed? MR KWEYAMA No. MR PANDAY And after having completed the robbery, do you confirm that you all had then driven off to deliver the weapons to a person in charge? MR KWEYAMA Yes, I drove the vehicle. On arrival at kwaMakutha I dropped the other four and we went to drop the car at Unit 6, where I had been instructed to leave it. CHAIRPERSON Where did you get the car from that day? MR KWEYAMA It was parked outside a certain house in Unit 6 at kwaMakutha. MR PANDAY And who was supposed to have given you this motor vehicle? MR KWEYAMA It was Mfanafigele Mkhize who handed over the keys to me. MR PANDAY Do you know how the motor vehicle was obtained? MR KWEYAMA Yes, I do. Mr Msani and Mfanafigele Mkhize were the people who acquired the vehicle. MR PANDAY When you say they acquired the vehicle, do you know exactly how ...(intervention) MR KWEYAMA Yes, I know they robbed the car from Isipingo. MR PANDAY Right, you need to be specific so they know exactly what took place. Now you say they robbed the car, was it Msani by himself or was he acting in concert with others? MR KWEYAMA He was in the company of Mfanafigele Mkhize. MR PANDAY And do you know what has become of Mfanafigele Mkhize now? MR KWEYAMA Mr Mkhize passed away when he was still in the prison. MR PANDAY Now Mr Kweyama, after having completed the robbery at the gun shop, did you in any way benefit financially? MR KWEYAMA No, we did not benefit anything financially. So what we did benefit about is we get the guns we want to protect the community. MR PANDAY Now you say you benefited by getting the guns to protect the community. MR KWEYAMA Yes. MR PANDAY Now what would you say was the political objective by having completed the robbery, or having partaken in the robbery, that you hoped to have achieved. MR KWEYAMA It was to strengthen our organisation, as well as to protect members of the community. It was our duty to protect the ANC community, that is why we needed those firearms. MR PANDAY Now you've heard the evidence of Mr Shangase, he stated that there was violence in the area between the IFP and the ANC. MR KWEYAMA That's correct. MR PANDAY They were also being attacked by the KZ Police, KwaZulu Police, would you also confirm that as well? MR KWEYAMA Yes, we were attacked day and night by the KwaZulu Police. MR PANDAY Now what sort of justification would you equate to your act by robbing the gun shop? In relation to your political objective. After having ... Why would you say that you were justified in robbing the gun shop? MR KWEYAMA I would state that we needed firearms because we were under attack from the IFP and the KwaZulu Police. Were it not for that fact we would not have required those firearms. MR PANDAY If you all did not acquire firearms, what would have happened to the community in kwaMakutha? The ANC community. MR KWEYAMA If we didn't get those firearms the place would have become an IFP stronghold. MR PANDAY So is it to be assumed that you were protecting the interest of the ANC in the area? MR KWEYAMA That's correct. MR PANDAY Now on the day in question, when you all went to attack this gun shop, were you all acting under orders or did you all decide wilfully to do it? MR KWEYAMA We were following orders from the Unit Commander, Mr Sipho Mgadi. MR PANDAY And is it correct that he issued the order to have this place robbed for the weapons? MR KWEYAMA That is correct. MR PANDAY Now Mr Kweyama, do you know what was taken from the gun shop, specifically? MR KWEYAMA Yes. MR PANDAY Can you account for us what was taken? MR KWEYAMA It was 11 pistols as well as 5 magazines. MR PANDAY Now I'm going to refer you to page, I think it's 47 - sorry, it's not page 47, Mr Kweyama, just bear with me, on page 28. Now on page 28 the first heading "List of stolen firearms" there's a whole list of items that are listed as being stolen, now do you confirm that there was only 11 firearms and 5 magazines stolen. MR KWEYAMA Yes. MR PANDAY Now do you have any idea of these items that are being mentioned herein? MR KWEYAMA I've no idea of where these other items emanated from. MR PANDAY And the cash that they specifically talk about? MR KWEYAMA I bear no knowledge about that amount of money because I did not see any cash. MR PANDAY Was there money taken? MR KWEYAMA No. MR PANDAY Now do you know what weapons were recovered? MR KWEYAMA It was the three firearms recovered from myself, Mr Shangase and Mr Mkhize, as well as another one recovered from Dumisani, which was not robbed from that shop. MR PANDAY And the live rounds and magazines they also list over there: 3 x 9mm ...(intervention) MR KWEYAMA I bear no knowledge about that. MR PANDAY Mr Kweyama, after having completed your robbery, Mr Shangase testified that you all reached a designated point and the weapons were handed over for safekeeping, would that be correct? MR KWEYAMA That is correct, they were handed over to Mfanafigele Mkhize, who would get into contact with the Commander, Mr Mgadi. MR PANDAY And did you all keep any weapons for yourselves? MR KWEYAMA No. MR PANDAY Or did you receive weapons later? MR KWEYAMA Yes, after about three days we did receive some firearms. MR PANDAY Now Mr Kweyama, would you therefore state that your sole motive for having robbed this gun shop was purely to obtain weapons for the protection from the attacks that were being launched against the community, specifically the ANC community? MR KWEYAMA That's correct. MR PANDAY Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's it. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY MS THABETHE No questions, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR PANDAY That is the evidence of Mr Kweyama, Mr Chairman and that leaves us with the last applicants, that's Mr Mkhize.