amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-22 PINETOWN 1 MOSES MOSIGAISAN MKHIZE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54214&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200522pi.htm JUDGE POTGIETER Mr Mkhize, would you just remain standing. Give your full names for the record. MOSES MOSIGAISAN MKHIZE (sworn states) JUDGE POTGIETER Thank you, you may be seated. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before ...(indistinct - no microphone). Can we have the last witness back for one moment. RECALL OF MR KWEYAMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Kweyama, did you fill in an application form for amnesty? MR KWEYAMA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And did all of you do this while you were in the same cell? MR KWEYAMA Yes, because we were in one cell. CHAIRPERSON And were they all handed to a prison warder for him to send on? Is that the normal practice? MR KWEYAMA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED JUDGE POTGIETER Mr Panday, your client is sworn in. EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY Thank you, Mr Chairman, sorry about that. Mr Mkhize, is it correct that on the 22nd of April 1993, you together with Mr Shangase, Mr Kweyama and two others had robbed a gun shop in Isipingo? MR MKHIZE That's correct. MR PANDAY Is it also correct that you were then convicted and sentenced for seven years? MR MKHIZE That's correct. MR PANDAY And which sentence you've already completed. MR MKHIZE Yes, I have. MR PANDAY Now Mr Mkhize, we need your help here. Whilst you were in prison, did you apply for indemnity of the act committed? MR MKHIZE Yes, I did. MR PANDAY Can you recall approximately when you had made this application, which year? MR MKHIZE I cannot recall the year, but I did submit that application. MR PANDAY Okay. Did you submit this application with others, or by yourself? MR MKHIZE We were together. MR PANDAY When you talk about "we were together", who are you referring to? MR MKHIZE I'm referring to Phinda and Nkosinathi Shangase. MR PANDAY And after having filled out the application for indemnity, did you later on also apply for amnesty relating to this incident? MR MKHIZE Yes, we did. MR PANDAY Now after having applied for amnesty to the TRC, did you receive thereafter any correspondence from them? MR MKHIZE No, we did not, we only received correspondence after our release from prison. MR PANDAY Okay. Now Mr Mkhize, is it correct that you are residing in the kwaMakutha area? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR PANDAY And more specifically, on the 22nd of April 1993, you were still resident in the kwaMakutha area. MR MKHIZE Yes, I did reside in kwaMakutha. MR PANDAY Now when you were in kwaMakutha, did you belong to any political organisation? MR MKHIZE Yes, that's correct, I was a member of the ANC. MR PANDAY How long were you a member of the ANC? MR MKHIZE I've been a member of the ANC for quite a long time. MR PANDAY And more specifically in 1993, were you still a member of the ANC? MR MKHIZE Yes, that's correct. MR PANDAY Now Mr Mkhize, Mr Shangase has testified that on the 22nd of April 1993, himself together with you, Mr Kweyama and two others had robbed the gun shop in Isipingo, is that correct? MR MKHIZE That's correct. MR PANDAY And you were acting under the orders of your Unit Commander. MR MKHIZE That's correct. MR PANDAY Do you know the name of your Unit Commander? MR MKHIZE Yes, Sipho Mgadi. MR PANDAY Now on the day in question, Mr Shangase also testified that you together with two others entered the gun shop whilst he stood on the outside. MR MKHIZE That's correct. MR PANDAY Now who decided that you would have to go inside the gun shop? MR MKHIZE It was ordered by the Commander. MR PANDAY And on the day in question were you armed? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR PANDAY What were you armed with? MR MKHIZE I was armed with a 9mm. MR PANDAY And of the two others that went in with you, were they armed? MR MKHIZE Yes, they were. MR PANDAY What sort of weapons did they have on them? MR MKHIZE One had a firearm and the other had a handgrenade. MR PANDAY Right, now do you know the reason as to why the five of you were going to rob this gun shop? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR PANDAY Could you please state that to the Commission. MR MKHIZE It was for the reason that there was political violence in kwaMakutha, between the ANC and IFP. We were under attack from the IFP who were colluding with the KwaZulu Police. The situation was so bad that I also had to flee my home, then go into hiding. Therefore the reason we went to rob the shop was because we needed firearms. Were it not for the attacks we suffered we would have had no reason to do so. MR PANDAY Now before - you see, you again mention that you went in to obtain the arms, did the organisation have firearms before you went to rob the gun shop? MR MKHIZE No, we didn't. MR PANDAY Do you know where you obtained the firearms when you went to rob the gun shop? The ones you all used. MR MKHIZE No, I did not know. MR PANDAY Then how were you given a firearm? MR MKHIZE I was given a firearm by Sipho Mgadi and I do not know where he had obtained them from. MR PANDAY Now on the day when you were robbing the gun shop, you were the one that went inside with the two others, that's correct. MR MKHIZE That's correct. MR PANDAY Can you explain to the Committee what was taken from this gun shop. MR MKHIZE We obtained 11 firearms and 5 magazines. MR PANDAY Is that all that was taken? MR MKHIZE That's correct. MR PANDAY Now on page 28 of the bundle of documents there's a whole list of items, also including cash, that was taken, can you comment on that list? Do you want to turn to page 28? MR MKHIZE Yes, I can comment because I was inside the gun shop. No-one took money from the shop, we only took those things we had intended to rob and those were the firearms. MR PANDAY And when you were arrested did the police recover any firearms from you? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR PANDAY How many did they recover from you? MR MKHIZE One firearm. MR PANDAY One firearm. And do you know in total how many firearms were recovered? MR MKHIZE No, I do not know - or yes, I do, there were three in all. One that was in my possession and the other two were with Mr Shangase and Mr Kweyama, as well as one that was recovered from Mr Msani, but that was not obtained from the gun shop. MR PANDAY Now Mr Mkhize, when this gun shop was robbed, did you in any way benefit financially? MR MKHIZE No, we did not. MR PANDAY What sort of benefit did you derive by robbing this gun shop? MR MKHIZE It was obtaining the firearms. MR PANDAY For what purpose were these firearms being obtained? MR MKHIZE It was for the protection of our community who were under attack from the KwaZulu Police and the IFP. We were going to use them for self-defence and it was Mr Mgadi's suggesting that we should go rob that gun shop so we could acquire firearms for protection. MR PANDAY Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair, just one question. Mr Mkhize, when you were given a gun by Mr Mgadi, what were you instructed to do with it? MR MKHIZE I was told to use it for protection in case anything happened. MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR PANDAY Mr Chairman, that is the evidence of the applicants. If you want to adjourn to get any feedback from our investigators. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) we had arranged to adjourn. Before we adjourn I want some more advice. MR PANDAY ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON 45 minutes. MR PANDAY ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Quarter to, yes, because we get fed here, so it's - but I thought they made arrangements for all of you. MR PANDAY ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON If you discover they have you can run back and tell me and we can shorten the proceedings, otherwise of course till quarter to three. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Panday, have you any further witnesses you wish to call? MR PANDAY No, Mr Chairman. MS THABETHE No witness, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Do you agree that on the evidence we have heard, we should come to the conclusion that all three applicants did apply for amnesty? MS THABETHE Yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON And on the evidence we've heard, do you oppose that application? MS THABETHE Not at all, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything in particular you wish to tell us? MR PANDAY ADDRESSES Mr Chairman, save to say that the applicants have fulfilled the requirements laid down in terms of this being a political act, as well as the full disclosure. CHAIRPERSON And it was committed in the conflict of the past, between two recognised political organisations. MR PANDAY Yes, Mr Chairman, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And they have denied having taken any money. We have in the papers put before us, a statement that money was missing, but we have not heard any evidence to that effect. MR PANDAY That is correct, Mr Chairman, the applicants that stand before this Commission, they've been quite clear as to what they've taken and what they haven't taken. The applicants themselves have nothing to lose to come to this Committee, they have served their sentence, they have always maintained, even at court, that this is what they took, so why further investigations as to why their representation was not completed to the fullest to try and establish the veracity of what the Complainant said, and that we cannot comment on, but as it stands they have disclosed to the best of their knowledge. They could have very well dismissed and admitted, yes, we took everything and it would have made life much easier for everybody sitting here, but they are quite clear as to what they took. All three of them. And it is my respectful submission that they've been truthful, honest and they have disclosed ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What was the reference or page number of the pages of what was taken and found? MR PANDAY That was on page 28, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON The only things on that that may possibly be stuff that was taken that they have not spoken about - no, the leather holster does not appear as one of the stolen articles, nor does the black plastic packet. MR PANDAY Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So what was found was three stolen pistols and one other pistol that was not part of what was stolen. MR PANDAY Which was not part of the ... CHAIRPERSON None of the other, the oil or those things were found on them. MR PANDAY None on them, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Does that complete the hearing set down for today? MS THABETHE ADDRESSES Yes, Mr Chair, it does. Maybe in a way of submission as well, I would refer the Committee members also to page 40, 43 to 44 of the judgment where the Judge makes it clear or states it clearly that the accused or the applicants raised the aspect of having committed this act for political reasons and maybe in making the decision the Committee could consider that as well. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair. Further, Mr Chair, I just want guidance and direction, with Mr Kweyama there is a reference number that was given by our office, but this is - with regard to Mr Mkhize's application there's no reference number and I ... CHAIRPERSON That was something we were going to approach you about. Can you please obtain a number, because I don't think we can allocate a number, we'll find we've allocated somebody else's. So if you could communicate with the office in Cape Town and indicate that we have inserted another matter onto the roll, and allocate a number to it. MS THABETHE I'll do that, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Is the same going to happen with any of the ones tomorrow? MS THABETHE Yes, Mr Chair, Mnyandu and ... CHAIRPERSON Perhaps you'd better as a safeguard, not that I've come to any decision in that regard at all, get some more numbers. MR PANDAY Sorry, Mr Chairman, just for confirmation the application of Hlangbanani Msani, is it taken that that matter is to be adjourned or to ...? CHAIRPERSON Adjourned. It seems to me, subject to anything that you may have to say or that you may have to say, that it is not a matter that demands a public hearing. MR PANDAY I accept that. CHAIRPERSON It is - well, what we've got, we don't know how brutal the highjacking was, it was an armed robbery, but I think it's a matter we can discuss with our Evidence Leader and if there was no injury inflicted and matters of that nature, it's a matter that could be dealt with in chambers. MR PANDAY As Mr Chairman pleases. CHAIRPERSON But we'll certainly let you know whatever we intend to do. MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON I think we indicated 9 o'clock didn't we, to the other people. We'll adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. MS THABETHE As the Committee pleases. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS