amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-22 PRETORIA 1 MANUEL ANTONIO OLIFANT AM4032/96 LIMPET MINE EXPLOSIONS AT UMZIMHLOPE AND DUBE HOSTELS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54216&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200522pt.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON We are now proceeding with the applications of Manuel Antonio Olifant and Mr M P Lingene. Mr Lingene's application is AM4033/96 and Mr Manuel's application is AM4032/96. Who will be appearing on behalf of Mr Olifant and Mr Lingene? MR COETZER Madam Chair, I'm Adv William Coetzer from the Johannesburg Bar. I'm acting on instructions by attorney Mr Julian Horwitz of Johannesburg. My instruction extends only in so far as representing Mr Olifant is concerned. I do not believe that there is any appearance for the other applicant, but my understanding is that the other applicant has passed away. I may be correct, or incorrect in this, but that is my understanding. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp, can you confirm about Mr Lingene's situation? ADV STEENKAMP Honourable Chairperson, Mr Lingene indeed passed away quite recently. In that instance there was the question then raised what is the position of his estate. In that regard his next of kin were then also informed about this hearing. His application is indeed before you, Madam Chair and I would request that his application be dealt with simultaneous with that of the Mr Olifant. That is my information. CHAIRPERSON And we don't have anyone representing his estate? ADV STEENKAMP No Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Do we have any representations from the victims' side? ADV STEENKAMP Madam Chair, maybe I must just, just for your information just put the following on record regarding this specific incident. I'm talking about now the incident of the so-called Dube and Umzimhlope Hostels. Now in this incident no information whatsoever about the incident itself could be obtained, neither from the next of kin of Mr Lingene, or from the Special Investigation Unit of the AG in Transvaal. At the time I was informed that the attacks in this specific area were investigated by a specific investigation team. We contacted the specific investigation team and we couldn't get any information about the incident itself. The Goldstone records were also checked because at the time of this incident, these types of incidents formed part of the Honourable Judge Goldstone's mandate. Furthermore the Commission's own HRV and official records were also checked and no information whatsoever was obtained. The research unit was also checked. The records there were checked. No information on this specific incident could be obtained whatsoever. Furthermore the Inkatha submissions were also checked, and any information relating to this specific area was also checked. As you might be aware, the specific Dube hostel came before the Committee a number of times as a matter of discussion. This specific incident could also not be traced via their sources as well. Furthermore, one of the witness protection unit members, Capt Mike Barnard, also contacted a Mr de Jager, Mr Dick de Jager who is an implicated person in this matter, to recall whether or not he had any information of this incident. His information was that he had no information about this incident and he was not aware of this incident whatsoever. Furthermore Madam Chair on my own request the Gauteng Investigation Unit was asked to go to this specific police station, a well-known police station in the area, to see whether or not we could find any reference to this incident. Unfortunately there again nothing could be obtained. No further information could be obtained. I personally then contacted the Department of Internal Affairs for missing persons and whether or not inquest records are normally kept there as well. No inquest records could be obtained. I have also contacted the State Attorney's office because normally inquest records or copies thereof are normally also kept there. No information could unfortunately be there obtained as well. If I'm not mistaken Madam Chair, there was also a newsreel in the public newspapers of that area that were circulated, I think I've got it here somewhere. No information came forward as a result of that as well. That is what was done in this matter to get any information on the victims and/or the actual incident itself Madam Chair. I think there's also the question, we've asked the applicant at the previous hearing when this matter stood down, whether or not he could confirm exactly when this happened, at least a date. You will see, I think he's referring to - as far as I'm concerned his not quite sure whether or not it was in 86 or 87 and take it furthermore, unfortunately in this specific time, there's numerous research documents by other NGO offices, which was also - I've also consulted that because there was extensive investigation done in this specific area and no information could be obtained unfortunately, Madam Chair. As far as I'm concerned Madam Chair and I would suggest with respect, that all reasonable steps were taken regarding Section 19(iv) to obtain victims and/or further information regarding the incident itself. Thank you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Steenkamp. We are satisfied that your office has taken all reasonable steps to identify any victim or victims in relation to this incident. We shall now proceed to hear the amnesty application of Mr Olifant. MANUEL ANTONIO OLIFANT (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzer, you may proceed with your evidence-in-chief. MR COETZER Thank you Madam Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR COETZER Mr Olifant, first of all I would like to refer to the content of your application form, styled form number one, which comprises pages one, through to eight, that includes a schedule. The information contained herein, do you confirm that to be correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR COETZER Alright. Now in addition to that, referred to in your application is a statement that you made to the office of the Attorney-General, or the then Attorney-General, now Director of Public Prosecutions, Madam Chairperson the Commission has been placed in possession of the relevant pages thereof, or specifically if I refer to the last paragraph on page one, it is styled page twenty at the top and then the first paragraph on the second page, styled page twenty-one. Do you confirm the correctness of what is stated therein? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That will be Exhibit A. MR COETZER As the Court pleases. Thank you. Do you confirm that this forms part of the statement that you made for the purposes of the Attorney-General and which is referred to in your application? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson. MR COETZER Now if one turns to page sixteen of the paginated numbering in your application, from page sixteen through to page eighteen, this is a portion of an affidavit - is it correct, this is a portion of an affidavit that was prepared by your former attorneys assisting you in your applications for amnesty, is that correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson. MR COETZER And pages sixteen through to eighteen deal with this particular incident for which you are applying for amnesty? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR COETZER Right. And therein you give an explanation as to what happened concerning these incidents at Umzimhlope and at the Dube hostels? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chair. MR COETZER Then finally if one turns to the paginated record, page twenty-four, paragraph seventeen on that page, is it correct that this page forms part of a statement that you supplied to the Commission at their request, answering further questions relating to the incident concerned? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR COETZER And paragraph seventeen relates to the incident for which you are now applying for amnesty? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR COETZER Do you confirm that what is contained in paragraph 17 and what is contained in the extract from your other statement, pages sixteen to eighteen of the paginated record, are correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR COETZER Thank you. Good. Is there anything further that you would like to add at this stage in connection with these incidents by way of explanation? MR OLIFANT No, there's nothing else. MR COETZER Thank you. Madam Chair, I would then make the witness available to the Committee for the purposes of any further questioning which the Committee may deem relevant in relation to these two particular incidents. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzer, you probably have also been given affidavits signed by Mr Pretorius and Mr Coetzee respectively in relation to this incident. MR COETZER Yes, I am aware, yes I have read those affidavits. CHAIRPERSON You are aware thereof? MR COETZER Yes, I am, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Whilst you are at it, we might as well give them a number. Mr Coetzee's affidavit will be Exhibit B, and Mr Pretorius's affidavit will be Exhibit C. MR LAX Have the contents of those two exhibits been explained to your client? MR COETZER He is aware of the content thereof and he is aware of the dispute of fact raised in the particular affidavits. However, I have been advised by my attorney and also by my colleague who is leading evidence in this particular hearing that these two particular policemen were not to be present today, nor were they to be legally represented and there was no intention of any cross-examination taking place of Mr Olifant thereon, so in the circumstances, Mr Olifant can only stand by what he has testified to, there's nothing further that he can do. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp, do you with to put any questions to Mr Olifant? ADV STEENKAMP Madam Chair, if you can allow me maybe two questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP Mr Olifant, can you remember what was your rank at the time, your and Mr Lingene's rank at the time of this incident? MR OLIFANT Yes, I do remember. I was a Constable by then, including Mr Lingene as well, he was a Constable. ADV STEENKAMP And do you know whether or not there was any police investigation conducted after this incident by any of the units in this specific area? MR OLIFANT No I cannot recollect on that one. ADV STEENKAMP Were you ever asked to submit a report, a security report to your head or your Commanding Officer at the time about this incident? MR OLIFANT Not that I know of. ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Madam Chair, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Mr Olifant? MR LAX Thank you chairperson. Just to pick up on one aspect with regard to the victim, the possible victims. You do say that there was a Sowetan article that you remember reading. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Honourable Chairperson. MR LAX It was in - so it was clearly mentioned in a newspaper? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Honourable Chairperson. MR LAX That may be a source to follow up to find some possible victims. MR OLIFANT Ja, unless well I did not stab him as well, that's former Insp Lazarus Lamolela, he was also involved, but unfortunately at the time when I drafted the affidavit I could not mention his name. MR LAX Just repeat the name for our benefit. MR OLIFANT Lazarus Lamolela. MR LAX Lazarus Lamolela? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON He was attacked to which police station? MR OLIFANT He was in the same unit as myself and that is in Soweto. CHAIRPERSON Soweto? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Where exactly in Soweto? Will that be ...(indistinct speaking simultaneously) MR OLIFANT Protea Intelligence. CHAIRPERSON And how soon after the alleged explosion had taken place, was this reporting done through the Sowetan newspaper? MR OLIFANT The following day. CHAIRPERSON You are aware, Mr Olifant, that there were numerous incidents such as this one which took place in various hostels in Soweto and Umzimhlope and Umzimhlope/Meadow-lands Hostel as well as Dube Hostels, we had numerous incidents of such explosions. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson, but ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How would you tie this particular incident with the incident which was mentioned in the Soweto newspaper? MR OLIFANT What really happened is this. After, I mean the following day after the incident had happened, when I read on the newspaper, I saw the article which had happened, similar to the place where we had placed the limpet mines. CHAIRPERSON That was in - was that in Umzimhlope? MR OLIFANT Umzimhlope. MR LAX Thanks Chair. The second aspect that I just wanted to follow up with you on was the question of, what was the purpose of planting these limpet mines? MR OLIFANT The purpose was to sort of like enhancing the police ...(indistinct) since he had a close contact with the ANC in neighbouring states, that's Botswana, Swaziland, wherever we went to with the police work and therefore whenever he was with the members of ANC outside the country, we will meet them and they were sort of like tasking him and being tasked, he was actually not able to conduct whatever he was tasked for on his own, he had to actually report to his master, that was by then Capt Coetzee. MR LAX You see, I hear that side of it, but here was a man linked to MK who was tasked with blowing up certain people, but they never gave him the ...(indistinct) to do it with. The first question they would ask him when he goes back is: "Where did you get the limpet mines from?" MR OLIFANT What happened is this, whenever he went to - had a contact with the ANC outside the country, they will always supply him with the relevant explosive, whether it's a gun, hand grenades, limpet mines and things of that kind, they would supply him. MR LAX Ja, but in this case it wasn't from him, it was from another source. It was through the police that the limpet mines were used. MR OLIFANT No, they were from the ANC what you call, circle. MR LAX So did he have his own limpet mines that you then placed? MR OLIFANT He had brought the limpet mines along with, at the time when he went to Botswana. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that you did not supply the explosives? That you used the explosives that had been supplied by Mr Ledwaba? MR OLIFANT No, no, no. He actually brought them from Botswana, if I recollect properly. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you used the explosives that were in possession of Mr Ledwaba? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Then what in heaven's name did you have to bring two explosive experts from Pretoria to drive to the two targets? MR OLIFANT Well, I did not know whether they were to sort of like, when you're given limpet mines from whoever, from the commanding structures and things like that, they don't actually give you a complete one, they give you separately, now for a safe sake for our people whom we were all in the kombi, I should think that Mr Coetzee suggested that we should bring a member of explosives what you call experts, in order not to make any mistake during the placing of the limpet mines, including whenever the timing had to be placed in the limpet mine. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ledwaba must have been given these explosives by the ANC because they trusted that you would be in a position to do a proper job, is it not so? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now, why bring outside people? MR OLIFANT Well, for the sake of not having any mistake. I mean, nobody know whether Mr Coetzee had a full trust on the ...(indistinct) experience in limpet mines, but in order for nothing to go wrong, Mr Coetzee might have thought that they should bring people from the explosives experts. CHAIRPERSON I still am not on the same page with you, but maybe Mr Lax will proceed with his examination. MR LAX You see, none of these mines were placed by Ledwaba himself at all. MR OLIFANT No. MR LAX Why not? MR OLIFANT Why not, I cannot really answer because he was in the kombi, but the right person who placed the limpet mines it was ... (indistinct) Bambo. MR LAX You see, how do you even know that these mines came from Ledwaba himself? MR OLIFANT Pure of the incident. What happened is this, myself and Mr Tshita Lingene, we were at Romatlabama border working for Ledwaba to cross the border from Botswana and after he had crossed the border, well he brought guns, you know, guns and explosives and things like that with him from Botswana, of which we all collected and put in our car and we drove straight to Johannesburg. After we had arrived in Johannesburg, Mr Coetzee took possession of those explosives and guns and he gave a proper report to Mr Coetzee. MR LAX Yes. So in fact you don't really know if they were the same land mines because Coetzee took possession of them and whatever might have been used later, might have been different? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR LAX So as far as you know, the purpose of this operation was simply to boost the credibility of this Ledwaba? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR LAX It wasn't for example, to foment more violence between the ANC and the IFP? MR OLIFANT No, no. MR LAX Thank you Chair, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lax. Mr Malan? MR MALAN Mr Olifant, have you had sight of the application of Mr Lingene? did you see what he said in his application? Was that shown to you? MR OLIFANT No, unfortunately I did not. MR MALAN You see because he doesn't refer to Ledwaba at all. On the page forty of the bundle of Lingene, and I don't know whether you've had a copy of that bundle Mr Coetzer, he addressed the incident in paragraph sixteen. He mentions Silomolela as being in your company as you've said, but he doesn't mention Ledwaba and apparently according to him the explosives were given to yourselves after you had left the farm in the kombi. Secondly, he refers to your visiting Jabulani Hostel, not Dube Hostel and Umzimhlope Hostel, but he says at Jabulani Hostel you tried to plant a limpet mine, but that was in the final analysis not done because there were some people sitting next to the taxis, you then left Jabulani and went to Umzimhlope, where Adriano placed a limpet mine under one of the kombis and then he also refers to the newspaper article. Now who is right? Was it Dube Hostel or Jabulani Hostel that you visited? MR OLIFANT Well, I don't know whether I'm wrong, or he's right, either of the two, but what I know is this. Before we could really plant the limpet mine in one of the hostels, we actually moved around Soweto, you know, in order to get an appropriate, suitable hostel where we could plant, what you call, the limpet mines and I do remember that we passed Jabulani Hostel, but I do not know, I cannot recollect whether we planted the limpet mines in one of the vehicles which we came across, but about Umzimhlope I'm quite correct that it's one of the hostels which we planted a limpet mine. MR MALAN Ja, I'm more worried about the Dube Hostel, because you say Dube, but he does not refer to Dube Hostel at all. MR OLIFANT Like I'm saying Madam Chairperson, that I might be confusing the matter between Dube and Jabulani. MR MALAN In other words, is it possible that you did not plant a limpet mine at Dube, is that what you're saying? MR OLIFANT Well, it's possible. MR MALAN So why are you applying for amnesty for a limpet mine there, if you didn't plant one? MR OLIFANT Like I say Madam Chairperson, I might have confused myself between Dube and Jabulani. MR MALAN But at Jabulani, according to Lingene, there wasn't a limpet mine either. MR OLIFANT No, I know for a fact that we planted two different places, one was Umzimhlope, I do not know whether it was Dube or Jabulani, but there were two places, because one of the places the limpet mine went off, but it was none of the injured, but at Umzimhlope the limpet mine went off and about two to three people got injured, seriously injured. MR MALAN Ja, because he says that the explosion at Umzimhlope hostel, in that explosion some people were seriously injured and that was the explosion referred to in the newspapers the next day. MR OLIFANT Well, what I know, I know that there was more than one limpet mine planted in one of the hostels. MR MALAN According to your recollection, can you remember the explosions themselves, or simply the planting of the limpet mines? MR OLIFANT The explosion themselves, I think it was a TNT. MR MALAN Did you witness the explosion? MR OLIFANT No, no, no I did not. MR MALAN Did you hear the explosion? MR OLIFANT No. MR MALAN So you wouldn't know whether there was an explosion or not except for what you read in the newspaper. MR OLIFANT The article. Ja, you're quite correct, Madam Chairperson. MR MALAN Thank you Chairperson. MR LAX Can I just follow up on one aspect? You refer to reading something in a newspaper about an explosion, could that have been the Umzimhlope one as Mr Lingene says, and it's possible that the one at Dube didn't actually explode at all, or if it did there was nobody injured in it and therefore it didn't make the newspapers? MR OLIFANT Well, it's possible that one of the what you call may not have exploded in Dube. MR LAX And it's not possible that you're just mistaken as to the fact that there were two limpet mines that were placed and it might have just been one and you're might be confusing this with another incident completely? MR OLIFANT No, no, I'm not confused about that matter because what I know is this, whenever John came out followed by Mr Pretorius, then came myself as a back up of the people planting the limpet mines, so therefore I could really - I could clearly see what happened. MR LAX Yes. CHAIRPERSON May I interpose? I thought you had already conceded when Mr Malan put it to you what Mr Lingene has stated in his affidavit with regard to the Jabulani Hotel as opposed to the Dube Hostel planting of the limpet mine, that you were not sure whether it was that you placed the limpet mine at Dube or Jabulani. MR OLIFANT Madam Chairperson, you know between Dube and Jabulani, I'm not quite clear, I'm not quite sure whether it was Jabulani or Dube, but I know it was one of them. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you are not sure whether you did anything at Dube or Jabulani. MR OLIFANT That's right. CHAIRPERSON I just wanted to correct that. You say that you read in a newspaper about the explosion that had occurred at Umzimhlope Hostel. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And if you remember the situation at the time, you say it was in 1986 of 1987. Mr Lingene put the incident to have occurred in 1986. Would he be more precise? MR OLIFANT Precise I may not be, but ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, would you agree with Mr Lingene? Mr Lingene says specifically it was during 1986. You are not sure whether it's 86 or 87. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Would you have agreed with him, had he been here? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON If you recall the period in 1986, were there many incidents of bomb explosions in various hostels in Soweto? MR OLIFANT If I do recall, I do recall that there were numerous incidents of explosions at Hostels and things of that kind, but this matter here where it really happened, I should think it was during June month. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR OLIFANT During June month because many incidents always occurred during that month, you know, in order to boost the June 16th, things of that kind. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Now I am trying to understand why you thought the newspaper referred to your particular operation wherein they planted the limpet mine. How were you able to correlate your explosion with the one that was reported in the newspaper? MR OLIFANT Well, the newspaper stated about the kombi, I knew exactly that no, that was the kombi which we had planted the land mine. CHAIRPERSON And to your knowledge there were not many explosions in the various hostels around Soweto which happened where an explosion would be placed in a kombi? MR OLIFANT No. CHAIRPERSON So that stood out as your particular operation. MR OLIFANT Yes, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON In your amnesty affidavit which appears on page eighteen, you've stated that the objective of placing these limpet mines in the hostels, was to protect the cover of the police informer who was known as Mr Ledwaba. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now how would you have protected his cover by participating in what was given to him to carry out by the ANC? How would that protect his cover? MR OLIFANT To give him a good reputation within the ANC organisation. CHAIRPERSON Yes, how? MR OLIFANT I should think that when he gave a report to Mr Coetzee and then Mr Coetzee might have seen that no, it's really an appropriate way since he was being given the firearms and the explosives to conduct a certain mission inside the country and you know Mr Coetzee must have felt that no, he alone he cannot do it, but you know to be helped by the unit. CHAIRPERSON Was this explained by Mr Coetzee to you? MR OLIFANT No. CHAIRPERSON How do you know that the reason why you placed these explosions was to protect or to boost the credibility of Mr Ledwaba within the ANC ranks? MR OLIFANT Well, I should think, if I'm not mistaken, that we might have had a certain briefing from either Mr Pretorius or Mr Coetzee, not exactly of what Ledwaba might have given as a report to Mr Coetzee, but a sort-of, I should think that he might have given us the reason why we had to go out on that night. CHAIRPERSON Were you or were you not given a reason why you had to carry out this operation and not Mr Ledwaba? MR OLIFANT Madam Chairperson, I cannot really recollect exactly words which were said by Mr Coetzee or by Mr Pretorius, but a ...(indistinct) of similar indication that no, the reason why we're going out tonight is for, you know is to sort of like give a good credibility to Mr Ledwaba, something like that. CHAIRPERSON The reason why I'm asking this is became Mr Lingene stated quite clearly that he was given no reason why this operation had to be undertaken, he was merely instructed as he was inside the kombi, he was given a Makarov pistol and Mr Bambo, Adriano, was given the limpet mine. You can't remember what was given to you, as you say you were simply a back-up team. MR OLIFANT Ja, Madam Chairperson, I don't think I can still remember what gun was I given as a back-up team and the reason. Well I only knew that the reason was sort of like covering up Mr Ledwaba, that is it because we have been doing almost on every police agent whom we had. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Was it a normal occurrence for your unit to place such explosions in the various hostels in Soweto in order to boost the credibility of your informers? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You did it over time? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON How frequent were these? MR OLIFANT Whenever an agent brought a report concerning that no, he has been given guns and we had to pass on a certain mission in the country and therefore we take these things and make use of them. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Why I'm particularly concerned about the reason you have advanced is because on reads your participation in this explosion, one can also read into how you conducted yourselves in these operations. One can simply read the fact that you were merely fanning the violence. You were fanning the violence, you were a third force making sure that the violence would proceed at a dramatic speed as the IFP would see your planting of the limpet mine as an ANC operation and would then retaliate against the ANC, thus fanning the violence. MR OLIFANT I will agree with you Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was that not the reason? You are here before us now and we are merely interested in finding out the truth. MR OLIFANT Well the deepest truth is this, I mean I was a junior. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I know that. MR OLIFANT I did not know much like Mr Coetzee knew, Mr Pretorius knew. You know, at the meetings whenever they met and take a certain decision, they wouldn't really invite us in order to sit and share the meetings with them, instead they will just come to us and give us instruction and the beat of a breathing and that is it. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And would I be correct in saying that the political objective that you stated in your written, in your affidavit is not something that you were specifically informed by Mr Coetzee? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Is it your own deduction? MR OLIFANT Well, I should think that that's what I have assessed, that no, it could be right on my side. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Coetzer, not the implicated party this time, do you have any re-examination? MR COETZER Thank you, I do. Arising from just one aspect which Chairperson Malan raised which was fortunately not canvassed, but let me do it now, because it may assist the Committee. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR COETZER Mr Olifant from paragraph sixteen of Mr Lingene's statement, as was pointed out, it is not apparent, he does not mention this to Ledwaba, the informer mr Ledwaba anywhere. What he says here is "As we left the farm I did not know as to exactly where we were going to because I was just told to come into the kombi." He also indicated here, he mentions various people that were in the kombi but he does not mention Mr Ledwaba, but states: "and other people that I could no longer recall their names." Arising out of this, what I'd like to ask you is did Mr Lingene know Mr Ledwaba or know that he was an informer? MR OLIFANT He was also a co-handler of Mr Ledwaba. MR COETZER Was he? Okay. Right. And can you remember whether he was at any former briefing with your senior Mr Coetzee concerning the exact purpose of that evening? Because it seems to me, judging from the statement, that he was called to this kombi at the last minute, I don't know. MR OLIFANT Well, in that regard I cannot really recall whether he was - he knew about the whole set-up beforehand or only after the matter had happened, is when Mr Coetzee by sort of like commenting, he may have sort of like said the reason why he went to go to what you call. MR COETZER Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETZER MR LAX Thank you Chair. Just one question arising. So you and Lingene were the handlers of Ledwaba? MR OLIFANT Co-handlers of Mr Ledwaba, that's correct. MR LAX Yes, well there were two of you. How many - who else was his handler? MR OLIFANT Well we were in number. The thing is this, we would always go by shift, not by shift by you know what are you doing at that particular moment. If you are not doing anything and Mr Coetzee will want to see Ledwaba, you say okay, "Manuel, get into the car, go collect Ledwaba." MR LAX Yes, but the relationship between an informer and a handler is a fairly personal one. You need to establish trust, you need to be able to know each other's details, we've heard that from countless other policemen, isn't that so? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR LAX You don't give an informer a thousand handlers or even twenty handlers. You might have two, that's possible, maybe three, but you seldom get five handlers for one informer, isn't that so? MR OLIFANT That's correct, but depending on what kind of - for better explanation about Ledwaba, I may have stated wrong that he was an informer. He wasn't actually an informer, he was an agent. Agent was actually a policeman, but under cover policeman. MR LAX So he wasn't an informer? He was actually a police operative? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR LAX Masquerading as an ANC person? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And therefore you couldn't have been a handler. Were you also handling agents? MR OLIFANT I was not a handler but a co-handler Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Were you also handling agents? If somebody was a policeman who was posing as an ANC activist, would there be a need for you to call yourself a handler in order to receive information or the briefing that you would give to the Security Police? MR OLIFANT Well, I did not perform as a handler, but I was performing as a co-handler. CHAIRPERSON Co-handler, handler, it's the same. Would you handle a source which was an agent? I thought you only handled sources which were informers. MR OLIFANT No, I may have stated wrongly, as I say Madam Chairperson, that he was an informer. He wasn't actually an informer. An informer and an agent is something different. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR OLIFANT Yes, but in that what you call it's stated that no, he wasn't an informer, he was a police agent, a policeman under cover. CHAIRPERSON In that case, what was your relationship with him? MR OLIFANT Mainly it was just to transport him and bring him to Mr Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you were not therefore handling him at all, because he was an agent. MR OLIFANT No. That's correct Madam Chair. MR LAX If your roll was simply to transport him, you didn't brief him, you didn't take his information, he reported to Coetzee? MR OLIFANT No. MR LAX No? CHAIRPERSON Well, that's what you've just said and I would agree with you, if he was an agent you would have nothing to do with an agent. An agent would go to the ...(indistinct) point where he would give in his reports. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Which would be Mr Coetzee and not you. MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR LAX Then what were you saying no to? What were you saying no to when I put the question to you? MR OLIFANT No I might have wrong, Chairperson. MR LAX You see your application here is consistent on the basis that he was an informer and you were his handler and your testimony was that not only were you his handler, but Lingene was his handler. Now if he wasn't an informer, then all that evidence can't possibly be correct. He couldn't have had handlers if he was an agent and therefore Lingene couldn't have been his handler and you couldn't have been his handler and why do these mistakes happen in your application? I want you to explain that please. You see, your legal representative asked you to confirm this and you confirmed the correctness of this yourself, you read it and you confirmed the correctness. MR OLIFANT Well, I do agree, Chairperson, but I should think there was just a technical mistake which I might have made between an informer and agent, but so I thought maybe I wanted to sort if like clearing up on that matter, no it was not an informer but he was a cover-up policeman. MR LAX You see, you still haven't explained to us how you would have achieved any kind of political objective by doing this operation in your own understanding. The Chairperson asked you, you said well it was a deduction that you made but it was a deduction based on the fact that he was an informer, not on the fact that he was an agent. Isn't that so? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR LAX So now you - explain to us now on the basis of him being an informer, how being an agent rather, how you made the same deduction. MR OLIFANT Well, like I've said to you Mr Chairperson that I made a mistake you know, when I was making the statement, my ...(indistinct) actually that he was an informer, when he was an underground policeman. We may call them an SR, he had a certain number after that, SR number so and so. MR LAX Yes. You still haven't answered my question. MR OLIFANT Well at the end of the day an informer and a cover policeman always did same job. MR LAX Yes. MR OLIFANT They had same function, so when I said an informer, maybe somewhere somehow I was puzzled. MR LAX Yes and so the object, what was the object then? MR OLIFANT Well ... MR LAX What was to be achieved by this, was it to boost his credibility again? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well this is again your own deduction, isn't it? This is your deduction? MR OLIFANT Well I will assume so, Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, as you also conceded that there can't be a reasonable interpretation to your conduct that it was to fan the violence. MR OLIFANT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Black on black violence. MR OLIFANT Well, I will say yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LAX You see my concern goes to this simple issue, if you were the man's handler, you would understand his need to have his credibility boosted. If he was just an agent who was reporting to Coetzee, you wouldn't know anything about why this operation was being cancelled, Coetzee didn't tell you directly, you've conceded that you're trying to make deductions now. MR OLIFANT Well in that regard when I said that Coetzee never told me anything, I do agree that he never told me anything, but you know there might have been an indication why we had to go out that particular night. MR LAX Well, what indication did he give you? MR OLIFANT Well a minor briefing about what will happen or what had happened. What was the reason why we had to go there. CHAIRPERSON Don't confuse yourself Mr Olifant, you simply deduced that the objective was to boost the credibility and improve this persons's standing within the ANC so that he can be more trusted. MR OLIFANT Thank you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON You've already conceded that you did not know whatever indications there might have been there, you still did not know, you were not informed. MR OLIFANT I will agree with you Madam Chairperson. MR LAX You see, you're speaking about a briefing now, did you go to a briefing about this operation? MR OLIFANT No, no, no, when I said briefing, I said a minor briefing which he might have just told us on our way or after we had come back from that place. MR LAX So you have no specific recollection, you're just assuming there might have been a briefing? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson, I mean, how did I come to know about the matter. MR MALAN May I just clear this up for myself now because we've been playing with words of informers, of agents, under cover policemen, of handlers and co-handlers and listen carefully to me because I just want to get the picture, I don't want to have a name for it. You said your relation with Ledwaba was that you acted as a driver to collect him or to drop him off? Was that your relation to him? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson. MR MALAN You knew that he was an under cover policeman? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN Who infiltrated the ANC structures? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN Right. Secondly you say as far as you can recall what you think the reason was that night for these limpet mines to be planted was to provide a deeper cover for Ledwaba. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN You cannot recall whether there was a specific briefing. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN But your recollection is that that was the reason. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN You don't know why you think it was the reason, but that's what you remember the reason was. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN And that's what you told us in the beginning. MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR MALAN And you cannot remember any specifics of anyone telling you this, its simply your gut recollection? MR OLIFANT Well, specific briefing about the matter I cannot really recall but what briefs me - what pictures about the whole matter, I mean how did I have to say this matter, I should think that Mr Coetzee might have said it, or he might have said that okay fine, people we are going to do this and this because of this and that, or after we have done this, he tried to sort of like you know ...(intervention) MR MALAN I don't want you to tell us why or what might have happened, I want to know in your recollection, do you have a recollection as to why you went out with the limpet mines? MR OLIFANT Well the precise recollection, no, I do not have. MR MALAN So why did you think did you go out? What was the reason, do you think and did you think at the time, was the reason for putting these limpet mines at the hostels? MR OLIFANT Well, I should think that it was to boost Mr Ledwaba within the ... MR MALAN Did you think it then or are you thinking it now? MR OLIFANT No I thought by then. MR MALAN Then you thought so already. MR OLIFANT Ja. MR MALAN Okay, thank you. MR OLIFANT Thanks a lot. CHAIRPERSON I'm getting more confused now Mr Olifant and I really don't want to belabour this point. Did you serious think then that when you participated in these limpet mine explosions in these various hostels, that what you were doing was to boost the credibility of the agent? MR OLIFANT I thought by then. CHAIRPERSON You seriously thought that way? Are you being honest? MR OLIFANT I'm being honest Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was it not known amongst yourselves as black Security policemen that there were allegations that the police were involved in fanning the violence between and amongst black political parties which were seen to be opposing one another? MR OLIFANT Madam Chairperson that was the general knowledge of police being involved in so-called third force, but in this regard here, Madam Chairperson, whenever I took part in my own capacity, I will say that the way I've seen the whole matter going on, it was to really boost the cover of Mr Ledwaba. CHAIRPERSON Why should you boost Mr Ledwaba's cover? MR OLIFANT Well so that it could go back I mean to the ANC organisation and say: "Okay fine, I have done this" to claim that: "No I'm Ledwaba who planted land mines at such a place and such a place." CHAIRPERSON And why couldn't Mr Ledwaba carry out these operations with ANC people in order for him to really stand out as a true activist within the ANC organisation by including the participation of other ANC members? MR OLIFANT Well, he was a policeman, so he had to report matters to the police, I mean to his masters. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but in order to enhance his standing within the organisation, I would have thought he would have included the ANC activists themselves, who then would definitely go out and sing praises about how he had succeeded in the operations. His standing would definitely be boosted. MR OLIFANT Well, I do not know why he did not do on his own, but I know for a fact that Mr Coetzee is one who came out with this idea, if I may say. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Do you have - can you advance any reason why both Mr Coetzee and Mr Pretorius would deny any knowledge about this operation at all? MR OLIFANT Well, Madam Chairperson, that surprises me as well why, I'm not here today in order to answer to this matter, because CHAIRPERSON Well they are here. The affidavit is saying they do not know anything about this operation at all. MR OLIFANT Well, really, I don't know why. I have tried to figure out why I did not hear, but what I see here, I know for a fact - they know for a fact that the ...(indistinct) passed away and Peter Lingene passed away and I'm the only person to answer to the matter. Maybe they are taking advantage of that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Do you know the whereabouts of Mr de Jager? MR OLIFANT Mr Dick de Jager? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR OLIFANT Last time when we met Madam Chairperson, I should think you remember, that was last year October/November, somewhere there, he was in the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MALAN This question of explosions, you say you were involved in other explosions. In your amnesty application you listed only three or three dates, one was an explosion at the Jabulani Amphitheatre in Soweto, you remember that explosions? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN 1986. MR OLIFANT Yes. MR MALAN Then the second one was this Umzimhlope Hostel. MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR MALAN That night and whether it's Jabulani or Dube we don't know and the third one you mentioned was an explosion at Jabulani offices, in Soweto. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN Were there other explosions that you did not apply for that you can recall? MR OLIFANT No, no, no. MR MALAN So how often did you go out specifically doing explosions? MR OLIFANT Well except doing explosions, we used to sort of like you know go into government offices to burn them, like Ibalageng, the offices and ... MR MALAN You mentioned that. But specific explosions, let me ask the question differently. Did you mention everything that you can recall? Was the intention to apply for everything that you can recall? MR OLIFANT Everything that I could recall, that's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON In your application you say that you received instructions from both Mr de Jager and Willem Coetzee. From whom did you directly take instructions? MR OLIFANT From Mr Coetzee and Mr Pretorius. Mr Coetzee was the head, not head but was the leading member, I mean was leading what you call member of the unit, Intelligence Unit at the farm, but the head of the Intelligence Unit was Mr de Jager who was sitting at office. Mr Coetzee, Mr Pretorius and others were all at the farm. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but who were you accountable to? MR OLIFANT I was accountable to Mr Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON And in this case who instructed you to participate in these limpet mine explosions? MR OLIFANT Mr Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzee. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON In person? MR OLIFANT In person. CHAIRPERSON And you only included Mr de Jager because he was the head of the unit? MR OLIFANT That's correct and he was there the day when I went to... CHAIRPERSON Did he know about this operation? Is that within your knowledge? MR OLIFANT Well not that I know of. CHAIRPERSON Pardon? MR OLIFANT I do not know whether he knew literally about the whole set up of the planned operation or he knew at the time when we were going to the hostels. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Coetzer, your position is still the same, you don't want to ask anything emanating from the questioning of - the latter portion of the questioning of the Committee? MR COETZER I have nothing further to ask, thank you. NO FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR COETZER CHAIRPERSON And you close your case? MR COETZER Yes, that is the applicant's case. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp. ADV STEENKAMP Madam Chair, I am not intending to call any further witnesses, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzer are you in a position to make your submissions? MR COETZER Yes, certainly, Madam Chairperson. MR COETZER IN ARGUMENT If one looks at the concerns and the questions that have been canvassed by the Committee concerning this particular incident, there are one or two comments that I'd like to make, perhaps just as a legal person and an analyst. As regards the distinction between an informer and an under cover police operative, it seems to me that in the particular circumstances, it would appear on the evidence to be no fundamental difference between the two in the sense that it is apparent that this particular individual was involved in going under cover into the ANC for the purposes obviously of discovering what the ANC were getting up to at any given point in time. It was an information gathering exercise. It would appear to have gone somewhat further in the sense that it would seem that this under cover police operative chose to allow himself to become, although for the purposes of under cover operations, a recruit of sorts to do positive acts on the part of the ANC. Madam Chairperson raised an issue for example as to why he did not go and conduct operations together with ANC operatives but I would submit that the evidence that we have is unfortunately too sparse to be able to draw any firm conclusions or inferences from the fact that he chose rather to operate back in South Africa with his police handlers as opposed to conducting operations with ANC operatives. We don't know what was going on at the time for example in Botswana or wherever he was in Swaziland, Mozambique, who knows. There may not have been operatives to go with him, he may not have trusted them. Going with ANC operatives he may well have run the risk of walking into the police himself not know that he's an undercover policeman and getting shot, etc, so it does seem to me that his choice in coming back and securing the assistance of the Security Police to perform operations that he was asked to perform by the ANC, is not entirely unreasonable, if one imagines the inherent dangers of other options which may have been available, or may not have been available. But at the end of the day also if one has regard to the affidavit, yes and Mr Lingene's application, that is paragraph sixteen, where he does not mention this particular under cover operative, if one looks at this particular paragraph, it would seem to me that it is rather sparse in it's description of what happened. I get the impression, just reading this in paragraph four myself that what he is describing here or the intention of the paragraph, is simply to describe physically what happened and his physical involvement. No attempt would have been made to explain why it is that this particular operation was taking place. Now it may well be ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Would that be correct ...(indistinct - mike not on) Would that be correct because he states quite clearly that he didn't know where they were going to, he was simply instructed to get into the kombi, that would explain the reason why he's unable to give any reason for the motive for that trip. MR COETZER That's right. It would seem the employment of his services that night was a last minute decision by somebody who effectively hauled him into the taxi. Whether that was - whether the purpose of this particular incident was explained to him afterwards or not, we don't know. What his particular memory is, he says there were other people there, he could no longer recall their names. It may well be, without having had the operation explained to him beforehand, he didn't notice the significance of certain individuals there, we don't know. Unfortunately I would say and submit that the absence of him mentioning this informer or any particular reason why this operation took place, ought not to impact upon the credibility of this applicant's testimony, particularly in circumstances where we don't have the opportunity to cross-examine him further on this aspect. So dealing with those two particular aspects, I would submit, looking at the totality of the evidence that he's given before the Committee, he's a credible witness. I would submit that there's no particular justification to suspect that he has come here and explained what has happened concerning this incident with an idea of pulling the wool over the Committee's eyes in any particular respect. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR COETZER And if the Committee is prepared to accept his credibility, I would submit that in other respects, he satisfied the requirements for being granted amnesty in so far as this matter is concerned. If there are any other aspects which Madam Chairperson would like to raise with me, I would certainly try and deal with them in any event. CHAIRPERSON In respect of which offence are you seeking amnesty? MR COETZER Well, I must confess that I'm not totally familiar whether there is a requirement that we must specify specific offences or whether we may leave it up to the Committee and ask that any offences which patently arise out of the admissions, and arise out of the admitted conduct, he be granted amnesty for, but obviously one would be dealing with three offences particularly and that is malicious damage to property and an attempt thereto, attempted murder. We don't know unfortunately whether anybody was killed in these explosions, so under the circumstances, obviously one would have to leave it in the hands of the Committee to decide whether or not, for the purposes of being fair and equitable to the applicants, one would include the charge of murder, but I would leave that in the hands of the Committee, but certainly it's quite apparent that an explosion, well as I say, it's difficult but on all the information it would appear that an explosion did go off at Umzimhlope. There is an admission that that mine was put under a kombi that had people in it. It's reasonable to assume that injuries must have occurred. That's the furthest one can take the evidence, so one ... MR LAX Doesn't your client go further than that? He says that there was a newspaper article saying people were injured. MR COETZER Yes. MR LAX I mean on that basis clearly, there is an attempted murder and obviously it's admissible or competent verdict on that assault GBH, all the rest of that, we don't need to worry. MR COETZER No I would agree. The only ... CHAIRPERSON May I just interpose Mr Coetzer, I don't have a problem with what you have listed so far, my only problem may be, to be precise, is would you be able to request for attempted murder in respect of the Dube Hostel incident because there the evidence is not crystal clear whether it's the Dube Hostel which was a target of attack through the use of explosives, or the Jabulani Hostel. MR COETZER If I may just say, Madam Chairperson, in his affidavit he says that he's not sure if there were people inside this kombi, that is where the limpet mine was planted at the hostel other than Umzimhlope. He remembers it as Dube. CHAIRPERSON But he also conceded under cross-examination that it's possible that he could have been mistaken by saying Dube, it could have been Jabulani as alluded to by Mr Lingene, when he still was in his affidavit. MR COETZER The way I understand the amnesty process, as I say I may be wrong, having regard to the finer technicalities thereof, but the way I understand the amnesty situation is that one is applying for amnesty arising out of incidents, omissions, or offences. It would seem to me logical that if one is not able to identify the exact offences that may well have been committed during a particular incident, the Commission may have the authority to grant amnesty for all offences that may arise out of a particular incident, but I don't know. I don't know. MR MALAN The Act provides for amnesty to be granted for any act constituting an offence or a delict. Now the question really is which acts are being applied for? Would it not be best to summarise it indeed as an explosion at Umzimhlope hostel and secondly an attempt an/or explosions at either Jabulani or Dube, if we want to cover him as far as possible? MR COETZER I would agree with that. MR MALAN Thank you. MR COETZER Sorry, the only remaining issue as I was going to mention are possible offences in terms of the Arms and Ammunition Act or Explosions Act, but I take it the Committee will take that into account. CHAIRPERSON Have you actually sought amnesty in respect thereof? MR COETZER The description and the indication is as per statement in possession of the Attorney-General, so what has been done is that per that statement, the description of these two incidents concerned have been included. I would, with respect, submit that it is wide enough. The Amnesty Committee itself did not, in the absence of any indication to the contrary, appear to have requested him to have particularised his application any further. CHAIRPERSON No. I think if you have recourse to his amnesty application, paginated number sixteen, it has been covered, it's wide enough to cover for that. MR COETZER Yes, I would say so. MR LAX Just the one thing that I forgot to ask him when he was testifying because I wasn't clear that you'd covered it, was you didn't get him, as far as I recall, to confirm pages sixteen, seventeen, eighteen and so on of that bundle. Somehow you overlooked it. You may well have, maybe I ... MR COETZER Sorry no, I did go back and have him confirm. CHAIRPERSON No, you did. MR LAX Well, in that case it's frankly covered by 9(a)(i) of that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Roux, for having represented Mr Olifant, sorry Mr Coetzer. We will reserve Judgement in respect of this application. Mr Steenkamp, does this bring us to a close with regard to applications moved by Mr Olifant? ADV STEENKAMP Indeed that's the position Madam Chair. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON In that case Mr Coetzer, you are excused. MR COETZER Thank you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp can you give an indication whether we would be in a position to proceed now or adjourn for lunch and proceed at half past one in respect of the application brought by Mr van Heerden wherein Mr Cornelius and Mr Koopedi would be appearing before us? ADV STEENKAMP Madam Chair, I would from my side not dare to ask for a five minute adjournment but I know my colleague Mr Cornelius would like to speak to his client before the matter is actually, sorry, Mr Brian Koopedi would like to - there's one or two difficulties I think that need to be sorted out before this matter starts. CHAIRPERSON We'll then take a lunch adjournment and reconvene at half past one. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS NO FURTHER RECORDING ON TAPE