amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-23 PINETOWN 2 SIBONGISENI PHILANI KHUMALO AM1584/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54222&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200523pi.htm CHAIRPERSON The matter that has been set down for hearing today, according to the bundle, is the application of Sibongiseni Philani Khumalo. The Committee remains that same. Would the legal advisers please put themselves on record for the purpose of the recorders. MS MOHAMMED Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Ms Mohammed and I'm assisted by Ms Koverjee, we are on record for the applicant. MR HARKOO Thank you, Mr Chairman. I'm Raymond Harkoo, I'm from the firm Harkoo Bridgedown and Reddy, I'm acting on behalf of the victims of the Reddy family. MR PANDAY Thank you, Mr Chairman. The surname is Mr Panday, initial S, I also represent the victims. For the purpose of the record I will read out the names of the victims that I am representing. It is the Maduna family, the Nzuza family, the Duki family, the Dlamini family and the Mbatha family. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, can you come again, a little more slowly. MR PANDAY Okay. Yes, it is the Maduna Family, the Nzuza family, the Duki family, the Dlamini family and the Mbatha family. MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair. I'm the Evidence Leader, Thabile Thabethe, for the TRC. CHAIRPERSON Right, shall we commence. MS MOHAMMED ADDRESSES Thank you, Mr Chairman. At the outset there's just one issue that we need to have the Committee's decision on. In this matter, from the bundle and in fact from discussions held with the TRC, it's evident that there are three parties who are mentioned as implicated parties. Their names for the record are, Jabulani Wiseman Mzimela, Madala Samakushle Mnyandu and Dumisani Malunga. Each of these implicated parties have stated that are not in fact implicated parties, but rather applicants, in the sense that they have made timeous amnesty applications, on or around sometime in 1996. Mr Mzimela and Mr Mnyandu, their applications relate to incidents which occurred in the Clermont area, and Mr Malunga has applied for amnesty for his involvement in the Reservoir Hills killings which occurred in 1988. None of them have in fact retained any copies of their applications I firstly address you on the position as far as Mnyandu and Mr Mzimela's position is concerned. I have placed before the Committee and in fact my learned colleagues, a list of correspondences that our offices have prepared and which have been sent the TRC offices from as early as the 29th of March this year. These correspondences relate specifically to Mr Mnyandu and Mr Mzimela's applications. From the correspondence it is clear the TRC has at all times maintained that these two individuals are in fact implicated parties. From the correspondence one can also find a letter from TRC which is addressed to Mr Mzimela, which places on record the fact that they have in fact received his amnesty application. Mr Mzimela received no further notification from TRC about the date of his application, nor any progress in his matter. Mr Mnyandu on the other hand, received no letters from TRC. The first time that he was contacted by TRC offices was in fact in November 1999, when a TRC officer, Mr Mbatha, called at Westville Prison to speak to Mr Khumalo, as part of his application. At that stage Mr Mnyandu was informed that TRC was citing him as an implicated party in this matter. Mr Mnyandu maintains that he did inform Mr Mbatha of his application that was made on or around 1996, and Mr Mbatha undertook to follow up on it. However, he received no further communication up until March this year, when a Mr Mazibuko from the record section at Westville Prison, told Mr Mnyandu the TRC offices required further information and they required a further detailed statement. And in response to that Mr Mnyandu supplied a lengthy statement which was then sent to TRC offices in Cape Town. However, Mr Mazibuko under cover of this letter actually said: "Attached please find an application for amnesty." This forms part of the bundle of correspondence that I have placed before the Members yesterday. Now Mr Mnyandu's instructions are that that was not in fact his amnesty application, but was rather in the form of any supplementary information that was requested by TRC offices. Subsequent to that, Mr Mnyandu received a letter from TRC, which stated that his application was actually filed out of time. Now that was purely in response to this letter that had gone across from Westville Prison. Now Mr Mnyandu at this stage even maintains that his application was filed timeously on or around 1996, and this was filed together with Mr Mzimela's application. I now deal with Mr Malunga's application. Mr Malunga, as the Committee will recall, is applying for amnesty for his involvement in the Reservoir Hills matter. He maintains that his application was made in 1996 and he did not keep any copies of his application. He was not informed by TRC of any progress with his application and he is presently cited for the purposes of this application, as an implicated party. It is the present applicant's contention, that's Mr Khumalo, that all three of these implicated parties ought to be correctly cited as applicants in his matter, because he has a direct involvement in each of their matters that they are applying for amnesty for, and on that basis requests that the Committee consider the position as far as the three applicants are concerned and that his application be heard together with the other applicants. That is all, Mr Chairman. JUDGE POTGIETER Ms Mohammed, is that on the assumption that Mr Khumalo has applied in respect of the Reservoir Hills incident? At this stage. MS MOHAMMED Yes. JUDGE POTGIETER So you're just applying on that basis? On that understanding that Reservoir Hills is indeed an incident that is before us. MS MOHAMMED Yes. JUDGE POTGIETER Alright. MS MOHAMMED But if the Committee wants me to address on the Reservoir Hills issue at this stage as an incident, I am prepared to do that now. JUDGE POTGIETER Why don't you just proceed, Ms Mohammed, and address on whether or not the Reservoir Hills incident is properly before us or not. MS MOHAMMED I'll do so, Judge. It is Mr Khumalo's submission that the Reservoir Hills incident is an incident that he has applied for amnesty for, and I direct your attention to the bundle that has been placed before us. From the bundle it is evident that Mr Khumalo has made two amnesty applications, one is dated the 3rd of June 1996 and the other is dated the 18th of September 1996. Now in the first application on page 6 - I am presently looking at the English translation of this, of the original Zulu application, paragraph 13(a) asks: "Are there civil proceedings pending or envisaged as a result of these acts ..." and Mr Khumalo has filled in his response as being: "At the moment I am facing charges for murder and robbery which happened on the 26th of August 1988." Now that is clearly the incident which took place in Reservoir Hills. JUDGE POTGIETER Is that the proper date? CHAIRPERSON It is the date given by Mrs Reddy in her affidavit. MS MOHAMMED So it's clear in the first application that he does make mention of the Reservoir Hills incident. In the second application on page 27, this is now the Zulu version, there is a paragraph right at the bottom and then the corresponding English version on page 19 right at the bottom, says: "Everything that I did is written here in the papers that are taken to TRC." and mention is there made of that statement which is dated 27th of May 1996. Now that statement details a list of incidents and also makes mention of the Reservoir Hills incident. So Mr Khumalo did in fact mention this incident and at all stages maintained his involvement in this incident and he is applying for amnesty for this incident. And all these documents were clearly filed with TRC in 1996, the early part of 1996. CHAIRPERSON But he doesn't mention this incident as such in either of his applications. MS MOHAMMED Yes, Judge, but he says that he had mentioned it in this lengthy statement and he was presently incarcerated for that incident, and he did mention it under that paragraph 13. So he was of the opinion that if it was covered in one part of the application, it did not have to be mentioned in the earlier part which specifically asks for the acts committed. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR HARKOO ADDRESSES Thank you, Mr Chairman. It's my instructions to oppose the application for amnesty in respect the Reservoir Hills issue. I think I'll deal with that first rather and then to deal with the Malunga issue. It is my submission that there is no formal application for amnesty, a mere mention of the fact that this incident took place does not itself constitute an application. It is also the version of the applicant himself in his papers where he acknowledges that the issue at the Reservoir Hills was in fact a criminal issue. And I refer the Members of the Committee to page 49 of the papers, in the middle where he states: "I stayed in prison for 16 months. During all that time I was going in and out of courts facing struggle related charges. The only criminal case was the one of robbery and murder of Indians at the Reservoir Hills Hotel." Then again on page 53, at the bottom on the penultimate paragraph, he mentions that - referring to the incident again, he says: "When this crime was committed I never considered committing robbery. To this day I have never been a robber." It is the applicant's own submission that, or own version that the incident is in fact of a criminal nature. Apart from the fact that there is a mere application, it is also my submission that it is incumbent upon the applicant to make out a least a prima facie case firstly, on the fact that the incident is politically motivated and also the fact that there is prospects of him being successful in this application. Mere mention of these facts do not constitute an application, firstly. Secondly, the applicant does not show that it is a politically motivated incident and he also fails to show that there is prospects of him obtaining amnesty from this Committee. I therefore submit that the application, if it was then, was not made properly, and if the applicant seeks to now make the application, it should be refused. JUDGE POTGIETER Mr Harkoo, was the Reservoir Hills, was that the only incident for which the applicant was charged and prosecuted? MR HARKOO No, Mr Chairperson, he has been charged and prosecuted on a number of charges other than the Reservoir Hills incident. I submit that he may very well be granted amnesty on the other incident, but it will leave him in a position whereby he may still remain in prison and the purpose of him trying to get out of prison is largely to now colour the Reservoir Hills issue as a political event, in order that he may then be liberated, or be out of prison. JUDGE POTGIETER So has he been prosecuted and convicted in respect of the other incidents that he's applying for as well? MR HARKOO No, he has not JUDGE POTGIETER So in respect of the incidents that he's applying for in his forms, there hasn't been any formal prosecution? MR HARKOO Yes. JUDGE POTGIETER And the only matter that on the face of it, is dealt with in the papers where he was prosecuted and convicted, was the Reservoir Hills incident? MR HARKOO Precisely. So basically it would leave him - well insofar as being in prison, it will leave him in a no better position if the amnesty is granted for those incidents for which he has in fact applied, apart from the Reservoir Hills issue. He will still remain in prison. JUDGE POTGIETER Ja, but is he in prison in respect of other things as well, apart from Reservoir Hills? MR HARKOO No. JUDGE POTGIETER Or is it just the Reservoir Hills thing that he's in prison for? I'm not sure, I'm asking you now, but perhaps Ms Mohammed will clarify it later. If you can't it's fine. MR HARKOO I understand he hasn't been convicted or prosecuted on the other incidents. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, I'm asking you that because you're the one that raised this paragraph on page 49 of the record, where he says the only criminal case was one of robbery and murder at Reservoir Hills, and I was just trying to understand what that really means, what he was trying to convey there. But I'll ask Ms Mohammed the details. Thank you, Mr Harkoo. MR PANDAY ADDRESSES Thank you, Mr Chairman. On behalf of the rest of the victims pertaining to the Reservoir Hills, Mr Chairman, my instructions are also to oppose the application sought by the applicant to have his application considered for the purpose of amnesty. Mr Chairman, it is my respectful submission that on pages 35 to 53, the applicant had set out in detail to the TRC, as to the sequence of events that has occurred in his life. Mr Chairman, it's pursuant thereafter, or pursuant to the letter that the applicant then completed the necessary documentation and more specifically the events that he would seek amnesty for. Mr Chairman, pages 1 of your bundle to pages 7, the English translation of the first application made by the applicant, Mr Chairman, in those pages referred to, on page 2 the paragraph 9 sets out the acts or omissions or offences that the applicant seeks amnesty for and there it is clearly stated: "The murder of Vusi Maduna; The murder of Simi Nzuza and The assault of Dlamini." And paragraph 4 sets out the nature and details of such events, and thusfar he has not included the incident of Reservoir Hills. Mr Chairman, then on page 6 the applicant's legal representation refers to paragraph 13(a), which asks of the applicant: "Are there any civil proceedings pending?" it's against the acts, offences and omissions for which he applies for amnesty. The acts, offences and omissions for which he applies for amnesty are clearly set out in paragraph 9, which he sets out, and one cannot read into the statement merely put down that he faces murder charges and robbery charges for an incident that occurred on the 26th of August 1988. Now the representation further referred to the second application that was made by the applicant. That appears on pages 18 to 24. Now once again, in paragraph 9, I think it's paragraph 9(a), once again the applicant sets out the case or the incidents - that's on page 19, for which he seeks amnesty for and all he does in paragraph 4 is merely relate to these incidents and confirms that he did set out in his papers: "Everything I did is written here in the papers that I have taken to the TRC." He merely relates to these incidents. JUDGE POTGIETER Well he leaves out the assault GBH on Mr Dlamini. MR PANDAY Ja, I noted that. JUDGE POTGIETER In the second application. MR PANDAY Ja, that's left out. That's left out as well. But even if one accepts his first application as being his completed application, there he includes the incidents that he seeks amnesty for. Now as my learned friend, Mr Harkoo, has pointed out, it's that to the best of our knowledge the applicant is currently serving a term of imprisonment for the incident that took place on the 26th of August 1988 at the Reservoir Hills Hotel. Now the indictment on page 141, sets out the offences that he's been charged for and we can reasonably assume, unless it can be confirmed later, that there are any other terms of imprisonment he's serving for any other offences. I believe, if my memory serves me right, I think the term of imprisonment he's serving is approximately 20 years for the incident that took place at Reservoir Hills. Now Mr Chairman, to sum up the reasons for opposing, is that at all times the applicant has made it clear the incidents he applies for amnesty and it was never included in his applications, the two application forms that he has submitted to the TRC. JUDGE POTGIETER You're submitting that we must ignore paragraph 13(a) on page 6 of the record. That's where he does refer to Reservoir Hills. MR PANDAY Mr Chairman yes, paragraph 6 can't be read into the fact that he refers to this as an incident of application. JUDGE POTGIETER Well he responds to the question which is very specific "Are there any proceedings pending or envisaged, as a result of the acts (etcetera), in respect of which amnesty is sought?" and then he responds to that and he says well, I'm facing these things ...(intervention) MR PANDAY Now Mr Chairman, paragraph 13 is a direct result of the question that had to be answered on paragraph 9. JUDGE POTGIETER Well to a lawyer perhaps, but he completed this thing in Zulu and as far as I know he hasn't got any legal qualifications. MR PANDAY Well Mr Chairman, we're also dealing with a person that has a standard 10 qualification. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes. MR PANDAY He's a person that can understand and he has gone to great length into explaining his involvement pertaining to the incident that took place in Clermont. One cannot believe that he has all of a sudden ignored the incident at Reservoir Hills. And more specifically, that being the major incident in his life. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, but why does he refer to it on page 6, if it has got nothing to do with his application? That's what I can't understand. And if I understand your submission you say that we must ignore this completely. MR PANDAY Well that leaves it just open, Mr Chairman, it's not specifically directed to an act that he applies for amnesty. He merely states that "I am currently just serving a sentence", but nothing further. It was never as a result of an act that he applies for. It's my submission that that statement be ignored and just merely be taken for what it purports to state, that he's serving sentence on an incident ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Facing charges. MR PANDAY Facing charges on an incident that took place on the 26th of August 1988. JUDGE POTGIETER Ja, but why does he tell us that, why does he tell us he's facing charges? He's not even saying I'm serving a sentence, I'm in prison, I'm facing charges. What is the relevance of that otherwise, if it has got absolutely nothing to do with the amnesty application? What does it doing there, and why must we just ignore it? That's what I want to be clear about. MR PANDAY Mr Chairman, as I verily believe it's that this is merely informative, not necessarily directed at an act of amnesty application. I cannot foresee this being directed at that. In paragraph 9, if he was intending applying for amnesty for the incident that took place at Reservoir Hills, that could have - that would have been included. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes remember, and as Ms Mohammed has indicated, at that stage this letter was already in our possession, it was dated the 27th of May '96, and this application if I remember correctly, was in June. So the application form followed on the letter of explanation. So that long narrative was already in our possession at that stage and now the form follows. MR PANDAY I would concede that, Mr Chairman, but it's my submission that we verily believe that the applicant has not intended applying for amnesty in respect of the Reservoir Hills incident or he would have made that very clear when he sought amnesty in respect of ... He merely sent a letter detailing his history. Mr Chairman, this application was sent in and subsequent to that there was a conviction, not at the time, he was just facing charges at the moment. This matter had not been finalised. One may not have been able to foresee that he would have been convicted on such an incident, but that's how it stands. Mr Chairman, it's my respectful submission that that ought to be ignored. It's neither here nor there. CHAIRPERSON Well isn't there a provision in the Act -I'm afraid I left my copy of the Act in my chambers, that when an application is received, the Committee should enquire to clarify if there are uncertainties in it? Shouldn't that have been done here? MR PANDAY It is possible, Mr Chairman. As I said we do not have that confirmation as to whether there was any confirmation sought in respect of the incident at the Reservoir Hills. JUDGE POTGIETER And can that neglect, can that be held against the applicant? Especially if it's a lay person, even with matric as you say. MR PANDAY I would submit, Mr Chairman, if there was fault on the part of the TRC not to clarify issues or the investigative work that was being done, that would be an issue to take into account. JUDGE POTGIETER And possibly that the objectives in this legislation is such that we as a Panel, should not be too legalistic when we approach these matters, we must read this as a whole and if there's a reasonable basis for concluding that there was possibly a reference in the application to this incident as well, that unless there's clear indication otherwise, one should come to the assistance of an applicant. MR PANDAY I would concede that, Mr Chairman, but as my learned ...(intervention) JUDGE POTGIETER Of course bearing in mind that that's got nothing to do with the merits of the case. Mr Harkoo has already referred to the merits, but that's a different question. MR PANDAY I would concede that. JUDGE POTGIETER There might be no merits in the application, but at this stage at the very least ...(intervention) MR PANDAY I would then concede that point, Mr Chairman, if one has to have a slightly wider approach in addressing the applicant's application. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes. Yes thank you, Mr Panday. ADV SANDI Sorry, just for my own information, in the long statement that has been submitted by the applicant, have you been able to locate any specific portion where he deals in any sort of detail with this Reservoir Hills incident, to say why it was committed, what political objective was sought and so on? MR PANDAY Well, Mr Chairman, the long statement that begins on page 35, the translation, and that goes on to page - I'm sorry, if Mr Chairman can just bear with me, that goes on to page 43, where he does detail the incident that took place at the Reservoir Hills Hotel, and specifically with paragraph 2, but as Mr Commissioner Potgieter has pointed out, that this would now be hinging on the merits of the matter and not on the merits of the application insofar it ought to be considered. ADV SANDI Ja, but maybe one is ...(indistinct) out here. In trying to determine whether there is a proper application before the Committee, shouldn't one read the application together with this particular statement, in order to decide that question? MR PANDAY I would submit that to be the case, Mr Chairman. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF ON RESUMPTION ADV SANDI Ms Thabethe, do you know if there was any correspondence between the office and the applicant, by way of asking for further particulars from the applicant? Do you know if that ever happened? MS THABETHE Mr Chair, what I know is that we asked our Investigative Unit to go to the applicant and clarify exactly which incidents he's applying for, because if you read the lengthy statement from page 35, there's quite a number of incidents that he refers to. For example he refers to, on page 39, to the disarming of policemen when they were from a funeral. So yes, we did instruct our IU to go and get a much more detailed account of what he's applying for, hence the statement on page 105. That is an affidavit clarifying exactly what he's applying for. ADV SANDI Ms Mohammed, if I can just come back to you. Where does the applicant associate himself with the Reservoir Hills incident in the long statement he has submitted? MS MOHAMMED Thank you Judge Sandi. On page 43 of this lengthy statement, this is in response to the earlier - that you wanted to know about his objective, the second paragraph there details his reasons for his involvement in that matter. The paragraph which says "It became clear to me ..." and which ends with: "children and their mother." MACHINE SWITCHED OFF ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON We've now been told that this affidavit at page 105 was specifically obtained by the Investigators, to clarify possible misunderstandings or confusion as to what was set out in the applications. Now in page 107, paragraph 2, he says "I wish to say that I applied for two counts of murder, two of attempted murder and armed robbery, for which I was sentenced to 20 years." That would seem, on a reading of it, to indicate that he, when asked by the Investigators as to what matters he had applied for, said that he had applied for these. He then sets out in great detail what happened. Doesn't that appear to indicate, the wording there, that he thought he had applied? This is one of the matters. When they asked him "What have you applied for?", he told them this is one. MS THABETHE It would appear so, Mr Chair. MR PANDAY I would concede that as well, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And the matter was left there. If our Investigator did not continue and say well, where is this set out in the application, he seems to have accepted it. Perhaps there was another application which we haven't seen, because at the time he made his first application, the one we've been talking about, he still hadn't been sentenced had he? MR PANDAY No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Anything further? MR HARKOO Mr Chairman, I have not addressed the Committee on the issue of the Malunga matter and I think the appropriate time would be once we've arrived at a decision relating to whether or not there was a proper application in regard to the Reservoir Hills issue. CHAIRPERSON I think if you could address us we can go away and then consider them all. MR HARKOO ADDRESSES Thank you, Mr Chairman. It is my submission that there is no application before this Committee and if my learned friend intends pursuing one, then she need at least make out a prima facie case as I've mentioned, in regard to the political motives, as well as some - I think it would be incumbent upon her to make some mention of the prospects of a successful application for amnesty. It is the, as I've mentioned earlier, it is the version of the applicant in this particular case, Mr Khumalo, whereby he himself refers to the incident as one of a criminal nature and throughout he maintains that it was a crime that he did not intend to commit. He tried to maintain his innocence in the whole issue. He gives us a very brief background as to what he thinks has happened, but there is no indication at all that it is of a political nature. I submit therefore that in the light of the fact that there is no application, there is no prospect that it is of a political nature, or any prospects of success that that application for Malunga also not be considered. JUDGE POTGIETER So in respect of Malunga, there is absolutely nothing before us? MR HARKOO Precisely. JUDGE POTGIETER In respect of Khumalo there are at least these bits and pieces that we've been talking about this morning. But apart from the submissions that Ms Mohammed made, there is nothing else before us. MR HARKOO Yes. JUDGE POTGIETER Not even evidence of somebody who can attest to the fact that he made an application? There's nothing before us. MR HARKOO Yes, yes. Thank you. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes thank you, Mr Harkoo. MR PANDAY ADDRESSES Mr Chairman, just to reaffirm Mr Harkoo's position is that when dealing with Mr Malunga, one has not tendered any prima facie, even for the very simple register. It is common knowledge that any applications that are made is that it is logged in a register of the prison authorities, whereby any documentation or correspondence is received by the respective prisoners. Maybe if one had sight of that, one could have possibly have given him the benefit of the doubt. Mr Chairman, taking that into consideration there has been no shred of evidence indicating that Mr Malunga has in fact applied for amnesty in this matter, and ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I understood yesterday, please correct me, that enquiries has been made at the prison and the relevant records were not available. MR PANDAY Mr Chairman, from what I recall is that the correspondence from a Mr Mazibuko pertaining to Mr Mnyandu, was that he can recall him making an application. I don't recall them stating specifically that Mr Malunga had made any application. Maybe our learned friend, Ms Thabethe, would be able to ...(intervention) JUDGE POTGIETER No, but the Chairperson is referring to the enquiries that were made on our request yesterday afternoon, at the prison, the search of the prison records, the log books, to see whether there is any indication of any application that are relevant to the ones before us. We haven't had a final answer to that, perhaps Ms Thabethe is going to deal with that. MR PANDAY Well I know with regards to the matter yesterday we had come back where they said the records that were sent over were pertaining to yesterday's matter. I can't confirm ...(intervention) MS THABETHE Can I be of assistance maybe here? Mr Chair, just for the record we did try to be of assistance by sending our Investigative Unit, Mr Mbatha went there together with Mr Madlala from the ANC, to the prison to look specifically for the register, because apparently there was a register where if someone had applied for amnesty they would register his name. Unfortunately the register is no longer there, no-one knows where it is. So there is no proof or evidence of any register. Or if it was there it could not be found. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, so there's nothing significant in that regard. MS THABETHE There is nothing significant in that regard. JUDGE POTGIETER It doesn't help us in either way. MS THABETHE No. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR HARKOO Yes, I have, thank you Mr Chairman. MS THABETHE ADDRESSES Thank you, Mr Chair. I was going to say with regard to Mr Mzimela, I phoned the office yesterday to try and find out what was on the file and it turned out that he did make an application for indemnity, which I would submit Mr Chair, to have been taken by our offices as an intention to apply for amnesty, because thereafter we wrote a letter to him acknowledging receipt of an application. That letter is dated the 25th of March 1997. And Mr Mzimela was also given a reference number 4237/96. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MS THABETHE Yes, the front page is the application for indemnity. The letter is on the last page and the first sentence reads "On behalf of the Amnesty Committee, we would like to acknowledge your application for amnesty." CHAIRPERSON Not just "your application", but "your application for amnesty." MS THABETHE For amnesty, yes. CHAIRPERSON Which I must say prima facie appears to indicate that they had received an application form which they took to be one for amnesty. MS THABETHE One for amnesty, yes. The difficulty, Mr Chair, is with regard to Mr Mnyandu and Malunga, because we will have nothing to go on with regard to them. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, now Ms Mohammed has submitted to us that the office had in fact requested further particulars from Mr Mnyandu and that the document that we have in our possession was in response to that and that the prison official had erred in writing in his covering letter that this is the application for amnesty. He should have written that these are the further particulars that you, TRC office, want from me. So what is your response to that? MS THABETHE My response, Honourable Member of the Committee, is that our instructions and our Investigator, Mr Mbatha, was clear that Mr Mnyandu was regarded as an implicated person, so any particulars that were requested from him were requested from him as an implicated person. That has always been our stance, even in our correspondence. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, but Ms Mohammed indicates that when Mr Mbatha visited the prison in order to speak to Mr Khumalo, he then also got in touch with Mr Mnyandu and said to Mr Mnyandu "Look you're implicated in this matter", so Mr Mnyandu then indicated to him, Mbatha, that he has actually applied for amnesty and Mbatha then undertook to look into the matter and to see what the position is. Now you haven't responded to that. MS THABETHE With regard to that, it's the first time I'm hearing about it, it's never been raised before, it was not raised in chambers and it didn't give me an opportunity to get in touch with Mr Mbatha. Because Mr Mbatha is in this office, I would have easily done that. So my response to you, Honourable Member of the Committee, is that it's the first time I hear about this allegation, that Mr Mbatha was informed by Mr Mnyandu that he'd made an application, hence I couldn't follow it up. But definitely our office ...(intervention) JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, well you must decide because Ms Mohammed's submission is the only one that's before us now. You're telling us that you're not able to respond to that. MS THABETHE Can I request for a short adjournment to speak to Mr Mbatha about this, because definitely it was not communicated to our office, it's just the word from the applicant. And what surprises me, Mr Chair, I must say, is that it's the first time I hear about this. Submissions were made in chambers, I was never told about this fact, hence I couldn't follow it up before. CHAIRPERSON I think you can follow it up and if necessary call him as a witness. MS THABETHE Yes. MS MOHAMMED Sorry, Mr Chairman, if I may come in here. I do confirm that I haven't discussed this with the Evidence Leader. My consultation with Mr Mnyandu on this particular point, followed on a question posed by Mr Chairman in chambers, as to when was the first time he was contacted by TRC offices to advise him that he was an implicated party. It was in response to that, just now, just before the hearing convened, that Mr Mnyandu informed me of this. However on the papers before us in the bundle on pages 113 and 114, is a translation of Mr Mnyandu's affidavit, which was actually given to Mr Mbatha at prison in November last year. From a reading of paragraph 3, the last line, Mr Mnyandu says "I had also applied for this act and did not receive a reply from the TRC." And also in paragraph 4 and then - so this has been mention in fact, in his affidavit, so clearly Mr Mbatha would have been aware that an application had been made because this is clearly recorded in this affidavit. CHAIRPERSON This act he's talking about was not - which act was this? MS MOHAMMED Mr Chairman, Mr Mnyandu has applied for amnesty for his involvement in the killing of one, Mapumulo and that is an incident in which - it's not linked to the Reservoir Hills matter at all, it's actually Clermont matters that are mentioned in this affidavit. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, but how does it help us to decide this question that is before us now in respect of Reservoir Hills? MR PANDAY Sorry Mr Chairman, I don't think Mr Mnyandu is linked to the Reservoir Hills matter. MS MOHAMMED It is only Mr Malunga. MR PANDAY He's been implicated by Mr Khumalo in the Clermont matters, in the murders of Maduna, Nzuza and the assault of Dlamini. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, I'm sorry, yes. MR PANDAY Mr Chairman, if I may just point out to Mr Chairman on page 113, paragraph 1, where Mr Mnyandu states that "I am presently incarcerated for a period of 20 years for the murder of Mr Mapumulo." Now my learned friend referred to paragraph 3 where he says: "It's for this act that I apply for amnesty" and she mentioned the Mapumulo matter. From his affidavit it's not clear that he seems to apply for amnesty with regards to the incidents involving the matter where Mr Khumalo is applying for amnesty. MS THABETHE Can I respond, Mr Chair? I concede, Mr Chair, that the applicant has indicated that he made some sort of an application to the TRC, but there is no record of him having made an application anywhere, not in the register, there's no file of him, he is - we only knew about him because he was implicated by the applicant, hence we've always referred to him as an implicated person. CHAIRPERSON We'll take the short adjournment now anyway, the time has come for that, and that will give you an opportunity to discuss it. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON ... has become available. MS MOHAMMED That is correct, Mr Chairman. We have spoken to Mr Tom Madlala who at some stage was the ANC Chairperson at Westville Prison. He has advised us that there was a certain stage when TRC had forwarded a list of ANC related amnesty applications to attorneys, Mlaba, Makai and Associates and one of their consultants from the firm had called at the prison with this list from TRC and went and spoke to each of the applicants, and on that list Mr Mnyandu's name and Mr Mzimela's name was featured. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Mnyandu ...? MS MOHAMMED And Mr Mzimela. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON That is accepted by all is it? MR HARKOO I cannot dispute that. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Nothing further anybody wants to say? We have had an opportunity of considering the information and the documents that have been put before us and the helpful argument that has been advanced. We have decided that the most convenient way of handling the matter, is to continue with Mr Khumalo's hearing, but to include in the subject matter of the incidents, the Reservoir Hills matter. That is the matter where the Reddy's were killed. We also feel that it would be proper on the information available to us at the present stage, to permit Mr Mnyandu and Mr Mzimela to continue as applicants. I wish to make it clear that we are not making a finding at this stage in this regard, but we think that more may emerge during the hearing, which will enable us to make a finding. We have not heard anything that makes us feel that we should hear Mr Malunga at this stage. In his case I also wish to make it clear that we are not making a finding that is he is not entitled to be heard at some stage as an applicant, but that is a matter that he will have to investigate further, obtain more information to put before a Committee, or before the Amnesty Committee itself, to persuade them that he should be put down as an applicant. We do not make any finding to prejudice his position. Any questions? Very well, let us continue. MS MOHAMMED Thank you, Mr Chairman. I call the applicant, Sibongiseni Philani Khumalo. SIBONGISENI PHILANI KHUMALO (sworn states) JUDGE POTGIETER Thank you, be seated. Ms Mohammed. EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMMED Thank you. Mr Khumalo, before you I have placed the bundle of documents that is now before all the Members of this forum, in that bundle can you please look at pages 8 to 17, and do you confirm that that was your original application for amnesty? MR KHUMALO That's correct. MS MOHAMMED And then it follows that pages 1 to 7 is the correct English translation. MR KHUMALO That's correct. MS MOHAMMED Do you also confirm the application dated 18th of September '96, which forms pages 25 to 34 of this bundle? MR KHUMALO Yes, I do. MS MOHAMMED And so it follows that pages 18 to 24 is the correct English translation of that application. MR KHUMALO Yes, I think so. MS MOHAMMED And then pages 35 to 54 is actually a detailed letter that you have addressed. Pages 55 to 104 actually bears the Zulu version. Do you confirm the correctness of that? MR KHUMALO Yes, I do confirm that it is the truth. MS MOHAMMED Then there's a further affidavit in this bundle, which runs from pages 105 to 109, it's dated 16th of November 1999. This is an affidavit that you submitted to TRC Investigator, Gerard Mbatha. Do you confirm the correctness of this statement? MR KHUMALO Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON What page is that? MS MOHAMMED Page 105 to 109. Okay Mr Khumalo, you have now confirmed the correctness of all these documents before the Committee, do you have anything further that you wish to add and that you wish to address the Committee on? MR KHUMALO I would like to comment on the application made with regards to the Reservoir Hills matter. I will begin by touching on the statement I made in 1996, particularly the details concerning that incident. What I am trying to avoid is to be implicated or to be accused of not telling the truth because when it comes to this matter I had encountered certain problems. When you look page 17, which bears the signature of Mr Pongula, who is an employee at Westville Prison ...(indistinct). He came to my cell, B5 number 9, and informed me that there was a process whereby all activists could apply for amnesty. For the reason that he did not know the details of my involvement in UDF matters as well as in youth matters, he told me that he had received forms from the government requesting all persons who were involved in conflicts of the past to detail those in those forms. The problem I encountered was after I had detailed incidents that took place in Clermont, that is involving the persons contained in the application form. When I was about to detail the issue of Reservoir Hills, I encountered problems because the situation in Westville Prison cannot be compared to a normal life, for the reason that I was preoccupied with the charges that I was facing. For the reason that my co-accused had already been sentenced and I had not been present when they gave testimony in court, so I did not know whether they pleaded guilty or not. In prison there are different gangsters and one is living in that situation. For the reason that Siphiso and Dumisani had already been sentenced, I was therefore not in a position to divulge everything about that incident. MS MOHAMMED Can you just confirm to the Committee what sentence you are serving. MR KHUMALO I have a 20-year sentence for two charges of murder and two charges of attempted murder and one of robbery, or armed robbery. MS MOHAMMED And it is correct to say that all these charges relate specifically to the incident at Reservoir Hills? MR KHUMALO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Are you going onto something else now? MS MOHAMMED No. CHAIRPERSON Oh, can I just interrupt you anyway, I'm sorry but I forgot. I have been told that there is another court sitting round the corner and they have been disturbed by the noise created with people leaving this court, so I would ask you all please to be as quiet as you can when you leave this courtroom. Carry on. MS MOHAMMED Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Khumalo, now you just said that all your charges - sorry, your conviction and your sentence relate specifically to the Reservoir Hills matter, maybe I think for the purposes of clarity you can just start with your involvement in that matter. We have it taken before us, but we do have your application in front of us. MR KHUMALO With regards to the Reservoir Hills matter? MS MOHAMMED Sorry, Mr Chairman, if I may just have a minute with the applicant. Thank you. Yes, Mr Khumalo, I think you should now start with your involvement in the Reservoir Hills matter. MR KHUMALO I will detail my involvement in that incident, however I'm not certain whether I should not begin by detailing my involvement in politics, because to start it at the specific incident, may create problems later on. JUDGE POTGIETER Perhaps you can just lead him. It's not necessary, we don't want his entire history. So please, just focus on membership of political organisations and so on, just to lay that basis. I don't think that's really in dispute, so I suggest you lead him on that. MS MOHAMMED Mr Khumalo, when did you formally - were you ever formally a member of any political party? MR KHUMALO "Yes, I started in student organisations in 1983, and the organisation was COSAS. Later on I became very involved in matters concerning the community and I was involved in an organisation that ensured that there was no criminal activity in the area, as well as uplifting and organising the community towards development. Eventually there was violence that erupted after the death of Mr Mxenge. At that time I then took a role that paved the way for the political changes that happened in this country. In 1985, after the death of Mr Mxenge, there was an outcry from the masses, which led to violence. This took forms of the burning of property. As member of CYL, which was affiliated to the UDF, all the activities that I got involved in were under the banner of that organisation. I did not engage in activities that were for personal enrichment or personal gain. I will then touch on the issue of Mr Simi Nzuza, because that was the first person who was killed by the youth of Clermont. Many events occurred during that time, such as the death of the President of Mozambique, Samora Machel. During that time a person by the name of Tom-Tom who had been a student at ...(indistinct) Zulu, was murdered and his funeral was attended by UDF leaders, amongst them the President, Archie Gumede. The situation was so tense that it was not just anyone who was allowed into the township to attend that funeral and it was not easy for normal funeral proceedings to continue. Many buses were unable to enter the township. It was only comrades from Clermont who managed to go into the Ndengezi area. On our arrival there we were attacked by a group of people who were already present in the township. On our return, on our way back, we tried by all means to protect ourselves from that group who were attacking us. On our arrival at Clermont we realised that there was a concert that was held and the group Stimela(?) was performing there. That was against the instruction that had been issued by the UDF leadership that we should be in mourning during that time. So on our arrival we alighted from the buses and we informed, or we enquired from the girls what was going on and we were informed that Ray Phiri of Stimela was performing there and we wanted to know why they were holding a festival when an order had been issued that we should be in mourning and not hold such gatherings. As Stimela was performing there, they were supported by OK, the very same OK who denied their workers an increment in wages. We regarded this as an insult to our people. We then disturbed that entire proceedings that were going on there. We then did, or took steps to ensure that that festival did not proceed. There was a person by the name of Mosau Zuma who was also there, who tried to stand up to the comrades but he could not withstand the power or the strength of the comrades. We then disturbed that gathering and it could not proceed. The Riot Unit Police were then contacted telephonically to come attend to the situation at the hall in Kwatabega. Because of the prevalence of violence there was just one police van available. It was a white land-rover and it was driven by just two policemen, which means that one had to drive the vehicle whilst one was shooting at the gathered crowds. When all of this happened, I and other comrades from Clermont and Kwatabega had an opportunity to surround the van with the intention of removing firearms in the vehicle or alternatively killing the white policeman who was driving the van, so that we could obtain those firearms. That is where the disagreement between the comrades and Simi Nzuza started. He had been with us in the struggle, he was a comrade, and that was the reason why he was amongst us. Because even though we were viewed as hooligans, but that was not our intention, our intention was to liberate our country. Therefore we had faith and we trusted Simi. Unfortunately on that day he had been drinking, which was against our policy. If you drink alcohol you would be given whatever could help you to sober up. Simi had a problem with what we were planning to do to the policeman who was driving the vehicle. What troubled us was that they shot at comrade Dumisani, who lost his eye. That is what caused us to become really angry because it was obvious that the police were now using live ammunition instead of teargas. In our view the situation did not warrant them using live ammunition. We then decided to attack that policeman so that we could obtain that firearm and also for the fact that they had shot Dumisani in the eye. Simi then expressed disagreement. The van was very close to us. That is a distance from myself to the Evidence Leader. Simi seemed to have a problem. I asked him what was his problem, why was he making a noise, because that policeman was going to hear us, because at the time we were wearing overalls, so it was not very obvious that we were also comrades. We looked like labourers. I told him to quieten down and he said there is nothing you can say to me. I then slapped him for the intention of quietening him down. I had regarded him as somebody who respected me, but on that day he just said he was going to inform on everyone who was involved in that incident and he went straight to where the shooting was taking place and no matter how hard we tried to dissuade him from leaving, he just left us. From then on we tried to attack that policeman. We had a 9mm in our possession, but unfortunately the bullets that were in that firearm had been, they were recaps, which means they had been used before. So when I went to the van and tried to shoot, it jammed. I went back to try and try to fix the gun. One comrade took it from me and tried to shoot again and it also jammed. The policeman then tried to fire at us with an R4, but he couldn't, but then his companion realised what was going on, then we had to flee. From then on there was a difference of opinion between Simi and comrades in general. On the 12th of June 1986 the State of Emergency was declared for the 13th of June 1986. To oppose what the government was saying or was declaring, we gathered and decided that no-one would sleep at home because our intention was to get ourselves arrested. We were not sleeping at our homes then. On the 12th of June we went and converged near the home of comrade Happy Hlope. Comrade Hlope then joined us and we went and camped out near Dr Gcabashe's home. Comrade Happy then explained what the State of Emergency was about and he also briefed us on other matters that were relevant to the State of Emergency, how you get arrested, for how long you could be held, such things. At about three the following morning a decision was taken amongst the comrades that when the sun rises we decided that whatever belongs to whites and Indian people, because the struggle was waged between black people and white people, would be attacked. So all those vehicles that came into the township on that day delivering whatever, were burnt down to our opposition to the State of Emergency. We also decided that we should divide ourselves into groups of eight. This suggestion was raised by Comrade Commandant. He was the one person who was at the forefront of our struggle. So all vehicles that brought deliveries into the township were burnt. When we were at an area called Shembe, we met a vehicle which was driven by white people, they looked like surveyors. Their car was burnt down and we proceeded towards the Kwatabega township. On our way a helicopter approached and tried to disturb us, but they were not successful. We then proceeded towards to Mcele Secondary School and Simi lived around there. As we approached that area our spirits were high and at that time we were of such a mind that any ...(indistinct) that we would meet would be attacked. At that point we met Simi, whom at the time we regarded as an enemy. We tried to chase him, but he managed to flee. We then proceeded to a house which was available for our use. As we went into the house, Madala Mnyandu who was with other comrades, approached us. I cannot recall whether Jabulani was in that group. And they informed us that Simi was now in the company of soldiers and they were identifying comrades by their clothing, such as jeans that comrades used to wear. Madala then gave us this information that Simi was in a balaclava but he was pointing out comrades to the soldiers and people were being arrested at that spot. I uttered the words that this person had become a problem, therefore we had to eliminate him. I said it specifically that he had to be killed. On saying this as a comrade and as a person who was regarded as a leader, because whatever I did my actions were geared towards the organisation and towards the protection of the community, therefore I was regarded as a person whose directions could be followed. We then left that house because we were aware that he knew about it. From that day we learnt that other comrades such as Aron Matse, Team(?) and Desmond had been arrested and other comrades whose name I cannot recall now, but it was mostly the leadership of CYL who had been arrested. I then went home and fortunately my mother and grandmother were at home and they informed me that the police had been looking for me and it was obvious that they were very serious and I realised that I was in danger. I then left for Inanda where I remained for two days, because I realised that my leaving was selling out the other comrades, therefore I decided to return to Clermont. Simi was then involved in acts that led to him being seen as an enemy. During one of those days we went to a school which he attended and we went there to address comrades to wear a uniform that would be similar in all the schools, so that the police would not be able to identify from which schools they came. When we arrived there a delivery truck from Mac ...(indistinct) arrived and it turned around the corner. It was going towards a section called Paradise. As it approached we were still discussing this issue with SRC representatives at that school who would take the message back to the entire school. When this truck approached we saw it as a target and we stopped it and burnt it down as a gesture of our opposition to the then government, because the order had been issued from the ANC in exile that the country should be made ungovernable. This information we got from our UDF leadership in the township. When this happened, Simi was somewhere around there and he witnessed everything that was happening there, because at the time he had begun to exclude himself from the activities of the comrades. After that people dispersed. On that same day a bus overturned and a lot of other things happened. Less than two days thereafter I was arrested. At that time I was not even staying at home. Simi came with the police at night. He first went to my home where he knocked and my grandmother opened the door and the police wanted to know where I was. For the reason that my grandmother was not very politically aware, she told them that I was not a thief but a comrade and the police were indeed looking for the comrade. They woke my sister up so that she could go and identify where I was. My sister then came to where I was and she knocked and I opened the door. When I looked around, Simi's face was not even covered. That is one incident that led to his demise. I was not the only person arrested, but I was arrested together with Dudo Malinga, as well as comrade Qcwaba, as well as a Stombi Ntyane, who is now deceased. We were then taken to the Kwatabega Police Station where I learnt that the police, the Security Police and soldiers were against comrades and terrorised them. I was tortured to a very great extent. We were assaulted. Out private parts were electrocuted. I was told to divulge the names of all comrades and other people who were involved in the ANC at Clermont. The soldier even showed me a finger, a dried finger, which he informed me that that finger belonged to an ANC cadre who had been killed by the SADF. I had heard about that person. I was told that if I do not divulge that information about other comrades in the struggle, I would be killed." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON We seem now to have got to the second paragraph on page 1 of his statement. Are we going to continue at this length? MS MOHAMMED No, Mr Chairman, I was just going to bring him back. JUDGE POTGIETER Perhaps you want to finish off Simi Nzuza's matter and just tell us what happened to him and move onto the next one. MS MOHAMMED Okay, Mr Khumalo, I'm going to take you back to this incident, the killing of Simi Nzuza, maybe you can just tell the Committee exactly what transpired on the day of the killing. MR KHUMALO Thank you. I would first outline the incidents which occurred before Simi was murdered and also I would like this Amnesty Committee to understand that on the day when he was killed we were not after him, we were looking for other people who were called Senior. These people were torturing the community of Clermont. It was after the State of Emergency. As I've already explained that if I were to talk of everything which occurred in that period, it will be too much, but I will try and eliminate other facts. "When Simi was killed in 1987, it was not the intention to look after him. In 1987, I was attending at ...(indistinct) Technicon, I was doing engineering there. In Clermont we experienced problems and a Crisis Committee was formed ..." ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Khumalo, I think I'll have to ask you to confine yourself to the incident about Khumalo. Who killed Khumalo? Let us start there. - Nzuza, sorry. Who killed Simi Nzuza? MR KHUMALO Students. The youth who were comrades those days. If I were not to talk about everything I may experience problem being questioned that why I didn't say so when I was giving my testimony, that is why I'm trying to relate everything in connection with this, or every fact which is relevant to the killing of Simi when he met the youth who were angry in Clermont, because the youth were experiencing problems at the time they had been harassed. That is why I'm saying I would try and eliminate the irrelevant facts, but I will also try and relate relevant facts to this incident, and that is why I'm trying to explain incidents which occurred, which led to the killing of him. It is important for me to relate that even the Crisis Committee was formed because of the situation. "At the time I was staying at Kwatabega and the comrades viewed Kwatabega as a predominantly IFP area because they had hostels in there. The view of the comrades was that areas whereby you find hostels, it is more likely that the people are predominantly IFP. And the hostel dwellers were viewed as Inkatha members because everything which we've done in the 1985 towards 1986, what used to happen was that if there were bus boycotts the people who were hostel dwellers used to use the buses ..." MR PANDAY Sorry, if we may just take a short adjournment, just to consult with the applicant's legal representative. We're going to be going on into great depth of ...(indistinct) unrelated as opposed to attending to the issues that need to be dealt with. This application is confined to specifically four incidents, if not five. Now if we may just have a chat with the legal representative, maybe we can be a bit more productive in terms of the processing of this application. CHAIRPERSON Well if you think it can bring matters to a head, we will take that adjournment and allow you one. MR PANDAY Thank you, Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION SIBONGISENI PHILANI KHUMALO (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMMED (cont) Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'm indebted to the Committee. Mr Khumalo, I'm now going to take you to the killing of Simi Nzuza. Please can you tell us what happened on the day in question. MR KHUMALO "In the morning on the day Simi was killed I was supposed to go to school as usual, because I had registered with the Technicon. It was obvious that the comrades from Clermont who were attending in Kwatabega, they were unable to enter the location or the township because of the Seniors who were in that township. I saw it as my duty to put a clear picture to the comrades about the innocent comrades who were staying at Kwatabega. It was myself and Zakele, we left for a certain school called Umkele. We found male students there. We explained to them as to what we were supposed to do because our comrades were facing problems. I explained to them that I, Philani Khumalo and together with the other comrades who were in Kwatabega, we were in a very difficult position and we told them that we were not one of those people who were harassing them. And then we proceeded to another school and also there we addressed the students and we told them as we told the student from Umkele school. After that we left. We were all looking for other Seniors. And some of the Seniors used to be my friends. As kids we were playing together. We went looking for them. We went to a taxi rank in Kwatabega, we found Dumisani Khumalo there and comrade Mandla Ngubane, who were also the people who had ran away because they had joined the Seniors. I explained to the comrades who were with me that these were not the Seniors, but they were comrades and they didn't do anything to them. We went to another school called Zipatele and as we were in a certain corner next to a house belonging to Mr Dibazani, we saw a group of students. I would estimate them as to 10 to 12. And the comrades had already decided that we should go look for the Seniors. There was a road called Kings Road, and we saw comrade Madala Mnyandu and comrade Tami together with comrade Vusi Thabethe who is now late. They had been released for the murder of killing a Senior called Swakayi. As we were greeting them because we were happy for them that they had been released, as we were excited I heard other comrades saying there was Simi and Simi was running down to another house next to the shacks. It is that time when all these comrades started running after him. There were female and male students or comrades and at that time no-one could have managed to bring us in order. Comrade Madala was in front and as we were going to these shack houses, some of them had been locked and some of them were not and one old man was sitting outside looking at us and he was asked as to if he noticed someone running and he didn't answer. As we were talking to him we saw him running and comrades started shouting that Simi had a gun and they were saying we should be careful as we were running after him. I, Philani didn't see the gun ..." ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED Sorry, can you just tell us why you and the rest of the comrades were running after Simi. MR KHUMALO The reason the comrades were after him, it was because he was viewed as an informer because there were things which were happening in our schools and he would tell police and these reports we will get to know them since we were residents of Tabega, because Tabega and Clermont residents were not in good terms, but I was a resident in Kwatabega. I myself, I was in a very difficult position because I was a resident of Tabega, which Clermont residents viewed as a predominantly IFP area. MS MOHAMMED Mr Khumalo, I'm going to take you back to this point where you saw Simi Nzuza running and the comrades had said to you that you must be careful because he had a gun with him, and you said to us that you hadn't seen the gun yourself. Now what happened at that point? MR KHUMALO As he was running, the comrades had been armed, all of us, we had different weapons with us. MS MOHAMMED What weapon did you have with you, if any? MR KHUMALO What I had from home, I had a home-made knife which I had made myself. MS MOHAMMED Okay and then what happened? MR KHUMALO "When we saw him running down the street, as I've already mentioned that before this we had been to three different schools, therefore comrades were from all these schools. I can estimate the number of students as 300 from each school and we were together from three different schools. When Simi was found where he had hidden, he was removed from that place and being assaulted at the same time. As I was approaching where the comrades had found him, when I arrived there Simi had already laid down on the road or next to the road, next to the road which turned to Sitengile school. He was being assaulted there and he was being assaulted with every type of weapon. Females and males who were comrades who were present there, they were swearing at him, assaulting him. I was one of them." MS MOHAMMED What did you do? MR KHUMALO "I will put it clearly, I will say when I arrived there after the comrades had found him and after the comrades had started assaulting him I personally, I couldn't reach where he was lying, I couldn't reach him even though I wanted to assault him, but I couldn't because it was quite a number of us and at that time other comrades, Dumisani Khumalo and Mandla Ngubane were almost killed. My eyes were just on them, the two of them. Among us there were other comrades who were not attending school and I was scared that they might try to kill Dumisani. That is why my eyes were on them." MS MOHAMMED Mr Khumalo, I'm going to take you back to Simi Nzuza who was now being attacked by these students, okay, can you tell me now what had happened to him after this? You said you personally wanted to assault him but you couldn't do so, what happened after that, what did you do? Apart from looking at these other comrades, I want to know specifically what did you do in relation to Simi Nzuza. MR KHUMALO I don't know, maybe there is another way for me to explain this or whether I should lie and implicate myself more than what I've already mentioned. I don't want to lie because the truth is that I didn't with my hands, but I was one of the comrades. As Simi was lying down, comrades started running and when I looked around there was a certain boy who was wearing a uniform. I don't remember whether his name was Dumisani. I'm not sure whether he was Simi's brother, but he was standing next to me and he was doing nothing and he was looking at the people who were assaulting Simi, and that thing alone caught my eyes and I started thinking because I used to see this boy together with Simi. I didn't go to Simi and lay my hand on him. At that time comrades started scattering and that's when I realised that police may come at that time. I do remember that I was the one who was responsible because I was the one who went to different schools together with other comrades, but the reason was not gather the comrades to kill Simi, but it was to attack Seniors. And I am not lying and I'm not trying to remove myself from the fact that I was part of this crime. And I'm not trying to please the Amnesty Committee or Simi's family. The reason I'm doing this, I'm trying to explain everything so that Simi's family can get to know about the incident, the whole truth and what prevailed on that day. I didn't put my hand on Simi because I didn't assault him, but I still feel guilty because I was one of the people who went to different schools and talked to students so that we go and look for Seniors and also I wanted to prove a point that not everyone who was staying in Kwatabega was an IFP. MS MOHAMMED Thank you, Mr Khumalo. Now to the best of your knowledge this was the time at which Simi was killed. MR KHUMALO Yes it is the day when Simi was killed. MS MOHAMMED Just for clarification, you were never arrested and neither did you face any criminal charges in relation to his death. MR KHUMALO I was expecting to be arrested for Simi's death because there were people who did go to the police in Kwatabega Police Station and gave evidence, therefore I expected the police to come and arrest me. When I was detained in 1987, SPs told me that they knew that I didn't put my hand in Simi's death, but I was one of the people who were there. That is whey then I was told that I was supposed to go to court and be a State witness and testify against the comrades who were present when Simi was killed. And also I was also told that I should implicate Peter, who was not even present when this happened, Peter Mazibuko. The boers, the SPs told me I should implicate him. MS MOHAMMED Thank you, Mr Khumalo. Mr Chairman, we're ready to go onto the next incident, I'm not sure if I can have some indication from the Committee whether you want us to proceed or should we adjourn? CHAIRPERSON Well we have arranged that luncheon would be served at one fifteen and we take half an hour for lunch if that suits you, but in the light of the fact that you're going onto something else, it might be better if we could take the adjournment now and we'll adjourn now for half and hour. I gather there is provision made for you all to feed here. MS MOHAMMED Thank you, Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION SIBONGISENI PHILANI KHUMALO (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMMED (cont) Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Khumalo, we will now move onto the next incident, it's the killing of Vusi Maduna. ADV SANDI Sorry, can I just come in here? I think you'll have to ask him questions to enable him to put the story before the Committee. Just ask him to sort of - not the way you did it last time. MS MOHAMMED Thank you. Mr Khumalo, on the day on which Vusi Maduna was killed, can you tell us how the incident took place. MR KHUMALO "It was on a Saturday morning and we were preparing to attend a funeral for comrades who had been killed by Mr Tshabalala and his group. On the day we were from comrade Zazi Kuzwayo's shop, because we would normally report to him before we left on any journey. As we were dividing ourselves as to who would go into which bus, it was myself, comrade Jabulani, Mzimela as well as comrade Mci, who is late, and comrade Pantas, as well as Mandla Gumede from Tabega, as well as others whose names I cannot recall. Vusi Maduna approached us on foot and greeted us and we greeted back and he requested to speak to me. Vusi Maduna's activities were well known amongst the comrades. He had been responsible for a lot and I hope I will be able to explain that later. I then asked him why is he particularly wanting to speak to me alone. Suddenly comrade Jay said Philane should not go there alone, and we wanted to know why he was there and he said he was looking for comrade Ntlanhla and other comrades from Hammarsdale who were at Clermont in hiding. He said he was from the offices of the Diaconia Council of Churches and he had money for these comrades." MS MOHAMMED And then what happened? MR KHUMALO "We then took him and questioned him on what he had done in Hammarsdale, that is being an informer and telling, informing on comrades from Hammarsdale. He denied any knowledge thereof and we presented him with evidence of what he had done, but he had been involved and responsible in the loss of lives of many people." MS MOHAMMED Okay, you said "we then took him and questioned him", who is the we that you're referring to? MR KHUMALO People like comrade Jabulani Mzimela, comrade Pantas and Nki. MS MOHAMMED Where did you take ...(intervention) MR KHUMALO We took him to the post office and we sat behind the post office at Clermont. MS MOHAMMED Okay, and then what happened? MR KHUMALO We started questioning him there. Questions related to his role in the death of the executive of Hyco, because he was implicated in the death of the leadership of that organisation. We also questioned him on the Pietermaritzburg Youth Forum, whose funds were allegedly from the Security Branch. We also questioned him on where he had received a mandate to hold a meeting in the name of UDF, at Hammarsdale. MS MOHAMMED Which political party did Vusi Maduna belong to? MR KHUMALO He was a UDF member by day and an IFP member by night. He was also in collusion with the Security Branch. MS MOHAMMED Okay, now during - sorry, after the course of your questioning at the post office - let me rephrase that. Was Vusi killed at the post office immediately after your questioning? MR KHUMALO After questioning him and realising that he was not willing to give satisfactory answers, we started pouring whatever drinks we had over him. This was a way of trying to get the truth out of him. During that questioning it became difficult to stop other comrades from assaulting him, because as we were questioning him some other comrades were called from hiding and these comrades were not prepared to listen to whatever Maduna had to say, because he was responsible for the death of other comrades. So that at that time he was then assaulted with the various assortment of weapons like knives, butcher knives, axes. So because comrades were armed with an assortment of weapons, but there were no firearms involved there. MS MOHAMMED Were you armed at this time? MR KHUMALO Yes, I was. MS MOHAMMED What were you armed with? MR KHUMALO I had a knife, a fish knife as well as a home-made knife. MS MOHAMMED What part did you take in this killing? MR KHUMALO "As we were assaulting I also took part in stabbing him with the home-made knife. I participated because I did not want him to live beyond that day. As we were still stabbing him a bus approached. Vusi struggled violently. The first bus stopped and he ran towards that bus. After he got into that bus, comrade Madala approached. This comrade had been watching this from afar and he got on his bicycle and he came to us. Vusi Maduna was already in the bus at that time and therefore the comrades broke the back window of the bus and they entered the bus. Myself and comrade Mandla went to block his way at the door. We tried by all means to kill him then." ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED Were you still armed at ... MR KHUMALO There was a bush knife that was stabbed at him behind the head. I cannot recall whether at that time I still had the knife, but I will assume that I had a weapon in my hand because the wound that really finished him off was one that was inflicted by a bush knife behind his head and that is when he fell outside of the bus. We dragged him towards the side, so as to clear the way and also enable other passengers to proceed with their journey. MS MOHAMMED Who inflicted this wound with the bush knife? MR KHUMALO: The comrade that I saw was Mandla Gumede. "At that time Vusi was struggling really hard and I think that is the one wound that finished him off, because at the rate that he was fighting he could have fled. As he was lying on the ground other comrades then assembled there. For the fact that we were on our way to a funeral, there were comrades all around that place, who were waiting for buses. When he was already on the ground, lying there, some women comrades approached and one of them called Jabu poured petrol, that is Jabu Radebe, poured petrol over him. In fact she was sent to fetch that petrol and she returned with it in a bottle and that petrol was poured over him." MS MOHAMMED Who sent her to fetch the petrol? MR KHUMALO I do not know, but I did hear somebody sending her to fetch that petrol because at that time we were looking for petrol and a car tyre to hang around him, because that was the way we dealt with people like Vusi Maduna. "The petrol was then brought and because of the commotion that was there, I cannot recall exactly who poured the petrol over him. And he was then set alight. At that time a tyre was brought and as they were about to put it around him I threw it away, because I thought of this action and the crime that we were committing and also for the fact that we were going to be sought after by the police because the SPs knew about us. I then kicked that tyre away ..." ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED And then what happened? MR KHUMALO After that I ran towards the taxi rank. I then requested someone, a taxi driver to take me home and that was where I left the comrades. MS MOHAMMED What was the role of comrades Mnyandu and Mzimela in this killing? MR KHUMALO With regards to Mzimela, he was present when all of this started. He was with us in the morning when we went to check on the buses. These two comrades were active in the organisation and when the buses arrived we had to check whether everything was in order and then report to Mr Kuzwayo. MS MOHAMMED Mr Khumalo, were comrades Mzimela and Mnyandu part of the group that assaulted Mr Maduna? MR KHUMALO Yes, they were present. ADV SANDI Could you just explain that. Did they specifically take part in the assault and the beating up of Maduna? MR KHUMALO Comrades Madala and Mzimela were the sort of comrades who were always in the forefront, so that whatever we started we had to see it through. Since we regarded Vusi as a white African and as such was an oppressor, it was therefore not easy for them not to take part. They played a significant role and I know that in Vusi's death they were also responsible. MS MOHAMMED Did you see what they did to Vusi Maduna? MR KHUMALO It must be clear that we did not operate as hit squads, therefore it was not easy to check and observe who does what, because what we did it was out of anger and it was also because of the need to fulfil the objectives of the organisations. MS MOHAMMED Mr Khumalo, did you specifically see Mr Madala or Mr Mzimela attack Vusi Maduna? MR KHUMALO We all attacked Vusi, but I cannot state specifically who hit him where, but as a group we all went there and assaulted him. It would be difficult for me to know where they specifically assaulted the deceased, but they played a role, they had a hand in his death. MS MOHAMMED Thank you. I now want to take you to the next incident, that's the assault on Vunu Dlamini and Sipho Mbatha. Now I want to take you to the specific day in question. When was the first time that you saw either of these men? MR KHUMALO I do not quite understand when you say for "the first time", because I knew them from early on. I do not know whether you are referring to the day in question when you ask me when did I see them for the first time. MS MOHAMMED Yes, on the ...(end of tape 2A) END OF TAPE 2A TAPE 2B COMPLETELY BLANK START OF TAPE 3A "... as comrades who were involved within a new organisation, the community did not fully understand whether we were just criminals or whether politicians. In fact, the people did not understand what comrades stood for. On one occasion Mr Xhulu's house was broken into and property was stolen from there. I think Mr Xhulu was a truck driver, therefore he was away from home for long periods of time. After the theft of his property, I was then informed by my tenant, or rather by my landlady, that one of my friends is suspected or rather as a group we are suspected of breaking into people's homes and I informed her that I as a person, I've never robbed anybody nor have I ever broken into anybody's home. I find it strange that I would be involved in breaking into Mr Xhulu's home. She then said I should try and absolve myself from this incident because I was one of the people suspected of doing that act." MS MOHAMMED And then what did you do? MR KHUMALO "I then went to Buno and questioned him ..." ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED Why did you go to Buno and question him? MR KHUMALO As mentioned before, I knew Buno from my childhood. I knew him from when we were young boys, because our homes were next to one another, so I knew he was a criminal, he used to break into people's homes, he robbed people. That is why he was the first person I approached. Secondly, my landlady informed me that she had lost her sports bag and I had seen Buno carrying a sports bag fitting that description. That is why I approached Buno and I just asked him when was the last time he went to visit my area. MS MOHAMMED So where did Buno Dlamini live? MR KHUMALO He resided near my home, but their shacks were one-roomed houses and ours were two-roomed homes. MS MOHAMMED So you approached him whilst he was still living at that shacks? In others words, you confronted him whilst he was at the shacks. MR KHUMALO There was comrade Mandla Ngubane whom we used to visit, who is a neighbour to Buno. We then went to him. I was not alone, I was in the company of other comrades but I cannot recall now who they were. I think Pantas and Dumisani, Mandla and others were there ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED Okay, when you questioned Buno Dlamini, what did he say? MR KHUMALO He said he hadn't been to our area for a while. Before this incident there was a certain man, my stepfather, Cleophas Sikakani, who was a policeman, who would sometimes arrest people for smoking dagga and he would take that dagga to the police station. He came to me one day and asked me to sell this dagga ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED I'm just trying to establish what transpired when met Buno Dlamini that morning in question. You said you questioned him. JUDGE POTGIETER Did you assault him? You didn't assault him? MR KHUMALO No. JUDGE POTGIETER Alright, tell us what did you do to him. MR KHUMALO "I said to him "Before I leave will you please give me the money for the dagga I gave to you to sell", and he told me that there was an outstanding debt from one person who lived at H hostel and I suggested that we go to this person together, so that I can get that money quickly. We then went to this person and on entering that house which was a one-roomed home, and on entering that room we saw that the house was furnished in exactly the same way - or rather, the sofas that were in that house were exactly the same as that had been lost in Mr Xhulu's home. I do not know how much that person gave Buno, but he owed me about R40. And on leaving we told Buno that the sofas that are in that room belong to Mr Xhulu and we asked him who he had been with when he stole those sofas. He tried to deny the charge and we started assaulting him, as was the practice then, that a thief would be assaulted and then stripped naked. We then took him to his neighbourhood ..." ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED Did you assault Mr Buno? MR KHUMALO Yes. MS MOHAMMED What did you do? MR KHUMALO We had sjamboks, because at that time any offender was sjamboked. MS MOHAMMED So you sjamboked him. MR KHUMALO That's correct. MS MOHAMMED Okay, and then what happened? MR KHUMALO "He then took us to his neighbourhood where Sipho Mbatha resided and he showed us where he was and that was the person with whom he had carried out the theft. We then went to Sipho and on our arrival he did not suspect anything. We requested him to come outside and we started assaulting him with the sjambok. We questioned him on the sofa issue and he said Buno was the person who had suggested that they steal them. When we asked him where those sofas were he told us that they were at the hostel in H section, which is where Buno had taken us to fetch the money. We then came back with them, assaulting them and it was the practice that anybody who had stolen something should be stripped naked, a model around the township. They were assaulted for more than four hours because they were taken around the township and Tabega, and they would be taken around schools and we went past Matembelene and went towards Kwatabega township and we went around showing them to school kids. And then they got an opportunity to flee, because as they were naked, they were embarrassed because everybody could see them, and when they fled they went to the police station to report the matter. It was only Buno who went to the police station, Sipho went and hid in a bushy area and we managed to get hold of him, took him and left him somewhere and told him to either go to report the matter to the police or go to a clinic. But Mr Xhulu's property was returned, things such as furniture and crockery and his personal belongings. I can just recall his shoes and his sofas." MS MOHAMMED Thank you, Mr Khumalo. I'm now going to take you to the next incident, which is the killing that occurred at Reservoir Hills in August 1988. How did it come about that you went to Reservoir Hills on that day? MR KHUMALO "This incident is one of he saddest moments of my life, because I did not know anyone in Reservoir Hills and I'd never been there previously and I never thought that I would go there to attack anyone. On that day Diba, Siphiso Kwela and Maxwell approached me. I cannot recall whether it was on a Wednesday or a Tuesday ..." ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED Mr Khumalo, sorry, you're going a bit too fast, I'm going to take you back to the point where you said "On that day Siphiso Kwela" and two others, and you gave their names. MR KHUMALO "It was Siphiso Kwela, who was in the company of Maxwell Nduyaki. They were both comrades. Maxwell had been in detention with me in 1987. I was residing at Fenen number 2910 at the time. ..." ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED Okay, why did they come to see you? MR KHUMALO "They were there for the reason that we wanted to leave the country because we were sought after high and low by the Security Police. They then informed me that the situation was so bad that the police were after us and I was one of the people after whom they were." MS MOHAMMED Okay. What did they say to you? MR KHUMALO We first discussed the issue of leaving the country because of the situation that was prevalent then. MS MOHAMMED And then what happened? MR KHUMALO "After that they informed that there was someone called Dumisani Malunga with whom they had discussed that at the Asoka Hotel in Reservoir Hills. There was money, cash, that was available there every Friday and it was estimated to be about R40 000 or more. When I enquired how this money would be acquired, ..." ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED And what did they say? MR KHUMALO "They informed me that they had already discussed the matter with Malunga, who was familiar with everything that was involved. This money would assist us in leaving or in being able to leave the country to join MK, because we were of the belief that if we joined MK in large numbers we would be able to return and fight the white racist. When we grew up in Clermont, criminals were regarded as role models because they drove the latest models of vehicles. When these two people came to me and told me that if we get this cash we would be able to give some to our families to assist them and the rest use it to acquire whatever we would need to leave South Africa. I would also like to state that there is a certain comrade I knew who had been involved in such things as robbery. He had bought vehicles and thereafter left the country to join MK, and on that we heard that he had been warmly welcomed by the MK and he was by then a driver for MK. When these people then told me this they said they would leave me in the meantime whilst they went to acquire firearms and as I thought about this after they left, and at that time as a comrade you were not different from a soldier, you were responsible for your own actions. I was residing some place other than my home and I was there because of Satan's circumstances. That may be irrelevant now, but it was just one of the factors that influenced my decision to join these people, commit that act. ..." ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED Mr Khumalo, when they brought you - after these two individuals had left you, after discussing their plans with you, what did you do then? MR KHUMALO "I then thought about this matter seriously and it was early afternoon and at that time it was just about time to start patrolling the township in the evening, because we had walkie-talkies that we had been provided with for that purpose. There was a vehicle that was supposed to pick me up for that duty. It did arrive and I went ahead as normal. Then on the Friday, the 26th, the day of that incident in Reservoir Hills, when I thought of what we had to do and the reason that I was going to leave this country, leave my children, I was then undecided because my stepfather was a member of the Security Branch and that situation had pressured me into leaving home because the comrades had started suspecting that I must also be an informer to be able to live with one. I then had to display to the comrades that I was not an informer nor a member of the Security Branch. So to protect my family and whatever possessions they had, I decided to leave home so that the comrades would be convinced of my commitment to the struggle. So that when these two people approached me I did not accept their proposal because I was also of the opinion to rob that hotel, but I also thought that maybe this is a test from other comrades, because even amongst the comrades, some still had that opinion that I may be working with the Security Forces because of my father. So that when these two people arrived and informed me of this matter, as well as touching on the fact that we would use the money to skip the country, I decided to take part. So that on the Friday when we went to fill up the tanks of the vehicles that we used to patrol - and these vehicles belonged to Mr Zulu, it was a kombi and a private vehicle. We would use these vehicles to go around the homes of UDF leaders ..." ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED Mr Khumalo, can you tell us at what point you met these other individuals who had planned to go across to this hotel. Where did you meet them? MR KHUMALO "On that Friday I was not sure whether to go and take part in that robbery so that I could be able to go across, or perhaps these persons had been sent to me to test just how committed I was in the movement, and we operated underground as the guards who patrolled the township and protected the leaders. ..." ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED You said at that stage on that morning you were still undecided as to whether to participate in this or not, what was the factor or factors which changed your mind? MR KHUMALO At that time, Chairperson, I was still undecided because as I mentioned before, I was in hiding where I was residing and it was as good as being in prison because I never went out except for when I went out on patrol duty. MS MOHAMMED So Mr Khumalo, when you met these other individuals you were still undecided as to whether to participate or not. MR KHUMALO Yes, I was still trying to explain that I went out and looked across and I tried to ensure that when these people came to pick me up they do not find me home. I realised that if I went one way I will most likely meet comrades who would also question me on where I was going and I decided to use another road and as I went out I just met these two people on their way to see me and they asked me where I was going. That is Siphiso Kwela and Maxwell Nduyaki. That is, I met them on this other route. MS MOHAMMED Okay, and then what happened? MR KHUMALO "They then told me that we should go and look for Dumisani Malunga who was going to accompany us on this mission, so that we could get some muti to strengthen us, such that perhaps we don't get injured. I then pretended that yes, I was enthusiastic about this mission. I did not want to reveal to them that I was not enthusiastic about it, because I was not of the opinion of carrying out such acts. We then went up the road. These two comrades, Maxwell and Siphiso, were also in the same situation as I was, they only went out in the evening. We went out looking for Dumisani and did not find him at home, we only got hold him at a shebeen. We found Dumisani there at the shebeen. At the time I couldn't really recognise Dumisani, he appeared to me like someone I didn't meet before. We left with Dumisani, we greeted each other and then we left the shebeen. We went to see the driver of the cars, Zwelibanzi Madlala. He was one person who was also wanted and we found him. I questioned Siphiso and Maxwell as to who the driver of the car was, but Dumisani appeared not to know about the driver. In fact the aim was to rob the money and skip the country. We went to Zwelibanzi Madlala's place. As we arrived at the gate we found his car parked and Zweli was not in the car, he went inside the house to put on his jersey. When he came back we asked him if he was ready to leave. He said no. As I was looking at Zweli I could tell that he was scared. I thought that he probably wanted to run away. We went to a house nearby where Siphiso and Maxwell were staying or putting their stuff, like muti. Their muti was kept there. We went there. We used the muti and then we left for Reservoir Hills. We were using Zweli's car. When we arrived in New Germany, we drove to a cemetery. We used the muti and then we proceeded. When we arrived in Reservoir Hills I saw the hotel because I knew the area, because I used to use the road to go to school. Maxwell said to me he trusted me and he said to me he had a gun, a baby Browning gun. That's what we used to call guns like that. We realised that the gun was not working and Maxwell said I must stand outside the door and watch or keep guard and I must scare people who are coming, because they won't know that the gun was not working and they will be scared. As we proceeded we parked the car nearby the flats in Reservoir Hills. We started talking about the plan. It was decided that Maxwell and Malunga will enter the bottle store and I will stand guard outside. We went. They entered the bottle store and I stopped outside and there were cars parked outside, cars which belonged to Indians and they were inside drinking and also there were African people who were behind the bottle store, who were drinking ijuba. As I was standing outside guarding for hardly a minute, I heard gunfire and I realised that I had no chance of running away and also I had no chance to keep guarding outside there. What came in my mind there, I used my mind and I realised I was in a good position to run away, but I decided not to because Diba was my neighbour, Maxwell was my comrade and the rest of them were comrades and I realised that if I were to run away I will be questioned in Clermont and I wouldn't be able to answer those questions." MS MOHAMMED So what did you do? MR KHUMALO "I entered inside and there were Indians and they were next to the safe because it was just before the bottle store was to be closed. I realised that I could do something to protect my comrades and I realised that behind the till, Siphiso was there and he was the one who had fired and I heard the manager of the hotel saying they were about to close. Just before he could finish I saw him falling down. As I was looking I realised that he had been shot at because blood was all over around him. At that time I had that gun which was not working and I had it pointed to five other people who were in that hotel and I told them to just stop and stand still and not to do anything because we were just there for money, not for their lives. And there was someone who was about to dial a number, so I pointed the gun at him as well and I told him to join the others and not do anything. I took the money from the safe, because I couldn't go back and I couldn't just stand and do nothing because I'll be a sell-out to my comrades. In fact, comrades had their suspicions on me because my father was an SP and I was afraid to be questioned by their families. I was forced to help them. I also took money which was in those cans where people put for donations. I put the money in my jacket. After that I could hear gunfire. I couldn't tell whether it was my comrades or other people. As I opened the door, Maxwell, Dumisani and Siphiso came out. One of them had a safe and they said all that money came from the hotel, the bottle store and the chemist. They came, they had the safe. I ran to look for the car where we had parked it. It helped me to go and look for the car because when I arrived there I realised that Zwelibanzi was about to leave because he had also heard the gunfire and I knew that other people had been shot at. I pointed the gun to Zwelibanzi and I said he can't do that and I also told him Siphiso and then were coming behind me. In real they did come and we got inside the car. Then we started quarrelling. Myself and Siphiso we quarrelled with the driver. We quarrelled because the driver wanted us to go to kwaMashu, and I told the driver that we were not the residents of kwaMashu, but we were residents of Clermont. So we ordered him to go to Clermont. Indeed we proceeded to Clermont. As we drove past the bottle store we saw people gathering there. There was only one gun which was of use. We proceeded to Siphiso's place." MS MOHAMMED And what happened when you all got there? MR KHUMALO "When we arrived there we took all the money which we had taken from Reservoir Hills. I also took the money which was in my pocket and we searched each other as to find out or to ascertain if there was no-one of us who had hidden another money. We opened the safe to ascertain how much it was. When we opened the safe we were shocked when we realised that there was nothing in that safe. That's when we were confused. We realised that it might happen that lives had been lost for nothing. When we counted those cents which were there, I think it was about R1 000 and some odds for each one of us. None of us thought of anything to do, we were all scared. We were talking about the lives which had been lost. It was very sad to me because I had gained more knowledge on the struggle and I knew that people shouldn't lose lives simply because of their colour or their race. And this was very sad to me because I was a comrade and also the fact that they trusted me to lead them, I couldn't answer to them, I couldn't say anything to any of those comrades." MS MOHAMMED What did you all do with the money that you all obtained from this robbery? MR KHUMALO I wouldn't be able to say what we did, but I would be able to say what Philani, which is myself, what I've done and I'm not going to lie about it. I can't say we took the money and bought firearms and ammunition because we had already obtained firearms from other police. We also had obtained ammunition and we've gathered these from robbing them from other police. "I requested Dumisani Malunga as one of the people who was a little bit grown up and also for the fact that he was quiet, I've spoken to him. It was R1 000 and some odds. I thought of taking R300 and take it to my in-laws to try and make things better because I had damaged their daughter and I had two children with their daughter and I had done nothing in compensation and also my stepfather didn't want my mother to pay any damages to that family as our customs and traditions requires us to do. I told Dumisani to accompany me to my in-laws and go and give them money during that night. Dumisani questioned me why did I want to go during the night." ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED Mr Khumalo, the balance of the money, the R700 that was allocated to you, what happened to that? ADV SANDI Sorry, just finish the first part before you ask that. Was this R300 in the end taken to your in-laws as you wanted it to happen? What happened to this R300? MR KHUMALO Thank you, Mr Chairman. This will be very much difficult for me. "I took Dumisani and I requested him to accompany me to do that because I wanted to do this or to set things straight and I knew that as a Zulu you have to abide with the customs and traditions of the Zulus, and Dumisani questioned for the fact that I wanted to go and pay the money during that night and I told him that I couldn't do this together with my family because Cleophas Sikakani doesn't want to hear anything about Lindi. I cannot enter into that issue here because it's irrelevant. And also, I explained to Dumisani that I can't go to that family during the day and I could be arrested if I were to do so. We requested the driver to take us to kwaTabega before dawn ..." ...(intervention) MS MOHAMMED So did you give this R300 at some stage to the in-laws or not? MR KHUMALO Yes, did so, I was together with Dumisani. MS MOHAMMED Was this the only money that was given to you after the robbery? MR KHUMALO I'm not certain whether it was R300 because this thing happened a long time ago, but I do know that it was plus-minus R300, because at that time I had already bought a goat to send to that family. My real father, Khumalo, had done so. They had already paid something. I was paying this because there was a second child. MS MOHAMMED So if I understand you correctly, each of you got about a R1 000-odd from the proceeds of this. MR KHUMALO Yes, I would say so. MS MOHAMMED And of that amount that was allocated to you, about R300 was given to your in-laws. MR KHUMALO Yes. MS MOHAMMED Now what happened to the balance of the money? MR KHUMALO After we came back to Clermont, myself and Zweli and also Dumisani, we were still using that very same car we used in the robbery. Some of the money, I wouldn't be able to say how much did what. Maxwell was no longer with us and these were the people we were supposed to skip the country with. We did this together because we wanted to gather the money together and skip the country, but we couldn't contact each other. MS MOHAMMED Mr Khumalo, what had happened to the balance of the money that was allocated to you? MR KHUMALO I am doing my best to explain, I don't quite remember as to what happened to the money. What was left was to find some shoes because we knew that we were going to go outside South Africa. We also needed warm clothes and also we needed shorts because we were told that long pants we cannot wear them because they'll be trapped in the fence. I would say some of the money was used to buy those things to enable us to skip the country. What I quite do remember is that even if I had bought those things, I was confused because Diba and Maxwell had disappeared, I couldn't hear from them. The only person that I saw just before I was arrested, before I went to kwaMashu where I was arrested, was Dumisani. The reason I went to kwaMashu was I wanted to get into contact with the comrades who were skipping the country, because quite a number of comrades from kwaMashu used to skip the country. ADV SANDI Sorry, just one question whilst you're talking about money. The money to buy the goat, where did that come from? MR KHUMALO This happened in 1984 and the buying of the goat was in 1985. This was at the time when I left school after Rachel was pregnant for the first-born. I took several jobs in Pinetown. MS MOHAMMED Mr Khumalo, that brings an end to your involvement in the Reservoir Hills matter. I want you to look at this bundle, page 108 of the bundle, paragraph 4 deals with this other incident of the stabbing of the South African Police member, is there anything further that you want to add to what is stated there? MR KHUMALO Yes. I think it is another incident which is important and I also requested amnesty on that incident. "The policeman was assaulted in 1987, I think in December. It was after my detention. I think I was released in September or October. I can't remember very well. It was after a long time I've been sitting at home doing nothing, trying to think straight on the incidents which had occurred and the problems which had occurred." ...(intervention) MS THABETHE Mr Chair, can I come in here? JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, is this before us? MS THABETHE No. This was raised only in this affidavit, which is after the cut-off date. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, it's not been investigated, it's not right for hearing. MS THABETHE It's out of the cut-off date, it's therefore - he first raised it in this affidavit, it doesn't form part of the other incidents he mentioned in his papers that were furnished before us. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, so in spite of what the merits of this thing is, it was not looked into by the Commission at all, it was not prepared to be dealt with at this hearing. MS THABETHE Nor in any other hearing, Mr Chair, because it was raised long after - it was raised on the 16th of November 1999, after the cut-off date. JUDGE POTGIETER Ms Mohammed, on what basis are you dealing with this? MS MOHAMMED Mr Chairman, the applicant has said to me that this had formed part of his application and when Mr Mbatha had spoken to him he mentioned it at that stage and that is when it was put forward to him. CHAIRPERSON There's no mention of it at all in the applications, is there? JUDGE POTGIETER Was it mentioned at all earlier today? MS THABETHE No, no. JUDGE POTGIETER This is the first time that we're confronted with this. MS THABETHE If I may add, on page 39 of the bundle there is an incident which talks about disarming a policeman, but that was when they were coming from a funeral and this seems to suggest that it was in a wedding when this occurred and it can't form part of the incidents he applied for because it was only raised after the cut-off date. I would submit, Mr Chair, that we shouldn't consider this incident. MS MOHAMMED Mr Chairman, if I may just have a few minutes with the applicant. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF ON RESUMPTION MS MOHAMMED Thank you, Mr Chairman. The applicant states that on page 39 of his statement, paragraph 3, this deals with the incident in question and he says that on page 108, paragraph 4, it's an elaboration of that. He says that although the incident on page 39 refers to a funeral and the one on page 108 makes reference to a wedding, the wedding took place after the funeral. MS THABETHE Mr Chair, if I can respond. CHAIRPERSON I'm afraid I have great difficulty in accepting that explanation, where he talks about a funeral at which he officiated wholeheartedly, which ended in chaos and that thereafter this incident took place, as compared with the other incident where he overpowered a policeman, assaulted him with a clenched fist and then left him and returned to where there was a wedding. MS MOHAMMED Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I cannot take the matter any further. MR KHUMALO I would like to clarify this myself. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF ON RESUMPTION MS MOHAMMED Mr Chairman, the applicant actually says to me that there is an explanation which was placed before the Committee when Mr Webster was on record. Now as we were not involved at that stage I'm not sure if the Committee would actually hear his explanation. He apparently had mentioned this to Mr Webster. CHAIRPERSON Does he not understand that for a matter to be heard by the Amnesty Committee, an amnesty application has to be filed before the cut-off date. You cannot put up a long rambling document and say "Well that's my amnesty application". MS MOHAMMED Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON We have agreed to hear evidence about the matter involving the hotel, because as you pointed out to us this morning, there is mention of it in the amnesty application, but there is no mention that you or anyone else have been able to show us, about this incident. MS MOHAMMED Yes, Mr Chairman, I see that. I can take the matter no further, Mr Chairman. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF ON RESUMPTION MS MOHAMMED Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'm indebted to the Committee for the short adjournment. The applicant concedes that that last incident that involved the Security Police is not an incident that he's applying for amnesty for. Mr Chairman, that is the application of Mr Khumalo, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMMED CHAIRPERSON I'm afraid I forgot to put something on my eye when we adjourned, I'm going to leave for one moment to do that. Can the rest of you just excuse me for a minute. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF ON RESUMPTION CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HARKOO I wouldn't mind starting thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Khumalo, at the inception of your evidence you responded to the answer by your legal representative, that you confirm the statements that you made that are in this bundle of papers and you confirmed that those statements that you have made is in fact the truth, is that correct? MR KHUMALO What I don't quite follow is that which statement are we referring to now. MR HARKOO I'm going to confine myself primarily to the incident relating to the one that occurred at Reservoir Hills. Now at the inception of the evidence that you led, you were asked by your legal representative when reference was made to the statements, in particular pages 8 to 17 of your original application and then the English translation of pages 1 to 7, then it goes on throughout. The English versions being pages 35 to 54, and then again pages 105 to 109, where you briefly set out your involvement in a number of issues, and you were asked to confirm whether the allegations made in those statements are in fact true and you did confirm that at the inception of your evidence, is that correct? MR KHUMALO What I will explain is that the reason I had explained all the incidents which I took part in, including the incident of Reservoir Hills, I did explain that when I wrote the statement about the incident that occurred in Reservoir Hills, when I was still in Medium A in prison, I tried to explain the situation which I encountered. The situation forced me to write some other events which didn't occur as they're written ...(intervention) MR HARKOO I will give you a chance to explain, Mr Khumalo. My question was simple, and that is, at the inception of this evidence you confirmed the correctness of those statements that you've already made. Is that not true? It's a simple yes or no answer. MR KHUMALO The Reservoir Hills statement it's not entirely true and the rest of the statements are true, and the truth about the Reservoir Hills incident is what I've already related here before this Committee. That is why I did explain why I wrote the Reservoir Hills incident the way I wrote it, because it was because of the situation. MR HARKOO Are you now saying that the allegations made in this bundle of papers relating to the incident at Reservoir Hills, is not entirely correct? MR KHUMALO I will put it this way. Things which happened the way they happened, they are like that, then there are other things which I didn't, or things that didn't occur. I just put them there because of the situation, but today I did relate things the way they were. MR HARKOO Are you now saying, Mr Khumalo, that you want me to discard those statements that you've made and refer primarily to what you've made mention of here in this evidence, or are you prepared to accept some of the facts or allegations that you've made that are set out in these papers? MR KHUMALO I will request you to do exactly that, take my testimony what I had said today before this Committee, because this Committee is the Truth Commission. It's the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, it's not a Committee of lies and destruction. CHAIRPERSON I think there should be a distinction made between the statement at page 35, which is nothing more than a statement, and the affidavit at page 105, which is an affidavit that was sworn to, as was the other document at page 135. Oh no, the one at page 135 is not sworn to. MR HARKOO Except that, Mr Chairman, the applicant today under oath then confirmed the correctness of the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, but I'm suggesting we put it to him, don't put - you have put then as if they were the same sort of document. I think you should say the statement and the affidavit. MR HARKOO Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Because the explanation which he gave at the beginning of his evidence, as I understood it, it related mainly to the statement he made in 1996. MR HARKOO Yes. Mr Khumalo, the statement that you've made in 1996, I take it that at that point in time the incidents that you referred to were a lot more vivid in your mind, is that correct? MR KHUMALO In 1996? MR HARKOO Yes, the initial statement that you've made which is from pages 35 up to 54. MR KHUMALO Yes, it was still clear. It is difficult for me to forget about this, but I was forced to write a statement which was not entirely true, because I was facing to go to prison and be with my co-accused who had already been in prison and I was forced to lie or to say something which was not entirely true. MR HARKOO And I take it now that whilst you're here today under oath, you are not telling a lie. So we could go on. MR KHUMALO I will put it this way. Today on the 23rd in the year 2000, I didn't say anything that I just formulated, everything I said here was not a lie, it's something that I remember, things that I recall as they were. I did my best to tell the truth, I didn't stray to tell a lie. MR HARKOO Okay. In your evidence you mentioned that you were approached by certain persons regarding the incident at Reservoir Hills, you were approached that Friday morning, precisely where were you at that point in time? Where you at Clermont or at kwaMashu, where were you? MR KHUMALO I don't quite follow your question, you said I approached someone. MR HARKOO When you were approached to join in the robbery, where were you? Were you at kwaMashu or were you at Clermont? MR KHUMALO I was in Clermont. MR HARKOO You've mentioned that there are certain people who are criminals and driving good cars, these people that approached you, would you regard them as criminals or would you regard them as comrades? MR KHUMALO The situation at the time, I will say as kids when we grew up, before one could tell the difference between white and black, anyone who was driving a beautiful car, we will take that person as a role model, should it be a black person or a white person. We've never perceived such a person as an enemy, but I cannot say that person is a comrade. MR HARKOO So when these persons that approached you, you are saying they were not comrades at that point in time. MR KHUMALO This was a hypothetical statement, but now if you're asking me about Diba, Maxwell, now we're talking about comrades who came to me, who were forced by a certain situation if in their hearts it was the way they put it to me. Because the situation in Clermont was terrible, was bad, even the ...(indistinct) couldn't sleep in the tree because gunfire were all over the place. MR HARKOO Precisely who was it that approached you? Was it Diba or Maxwell? MR KHUMALO Both of them. MR HARKOO You mentioned that you were very uncertain as to whether you wanted to join them in this venture, I take it that you were not certain because you appreciated at that point in time that it is an activity that is not carried out by comrades, is that correct? MR KHUMALO If I put it that way I meant clearly that ANC and their armed struggle never once approved of robbery, robbery was not something they approved for comrades to do, but these things happened. When I grew up I knew that if you had robbed and then took the money and skipped the country and joined MK, MK will not send you back and say you've robbed the money in order to join them, you will join and you will serve the ANC. MR HARKOO Yes, I want to put it to you that as you've mentioned you were not certain, you were unsure, because it is an activity that is not carried out by comrades, that you appreciated that it was in fact a criminal activity and that is why you were not certain as to whether you would join the others in this venture, is that correct? MR KHUMALO You are putting it correctly. In 1988 I saw - as they were telling me I saw this thing at first like that, but in that period in Clermont, a person will simply come to you and tell you to do whatever which was a criminal activity. In my situation it was easy for someone like me to find himself at that time in that position or getting involved in some criminal activity, because in that time it was scary, people were dying and to do any criminal activity was also dangerous and will put your life and your family life in a very difficult position. My position at the same time was much, much more difficult because I was from an SP family and comrades were reluctant in trusting me a hundred percent. In other words, whatever they came to me with, if they had approached me, it was not as easy for me to simply deny joining the comrades. That is why I also thought that I should run away at first and that is why I was hesitant, but unfortunately I couldn't run away before they came. They found me. It was fortunate for them and so unfortunate for me and I didn't want to show them that I was not going along with that idea. CHAIRPERSON You've told us that you had this problem that they were suspicious of you at times, but my recollection is you also told frequently that they looked upon you as a leader. Is that correct? MR KHUMALO Yes, it is like that. As I've already explained, comrades were quite a number, they were different. Among them some of them were those who were reluctant in trusting me and among them there were a few like Happy Hlope, who used to stand by me and convince comrades to trust in me. Unfortunately I didn't write a letter to comrade Happy and tell him about my situation, but I did write a letter to comrade Siphiso Kamane, who was a student at Durban Westville and we were also detained together. In 1988 whilst I was at home for two days, I wrote a letter and I sent it where he was staying. He read the letter and he send a message that he was going to talk to the comrades about my problem. I don't know whether he did that, but I had already told Mr Archie and he was one of the people who helped me in running away from home, but he knew that some comrades trusted in me. MR HARKOO I'm going to try and ask you a few questions that will entail a yes or no answer, okay. Now you did not receive any orders from any organisation to commit this robbery, is that correct? MR KHUMALO I did not. MR HARKOO Thank you. Now you are now saying that you joined in this robbery, or you joined in this venture because you needed to satisfy the other comrades that you are also part of the struggle and that you are with them in this whole venture, is that correct? MR KHUMALO I would say yes, at the time that is how I thought about it. MR HARKOO And that was your primary reason as to why you joined the others in this robbery, correct? MR KHUMALO Sir, it is an important reason, but we must also take cognisance of whether I as an individual did not want to skip the country, was I not attracted to this robbery also for the reason that I wanted to skip the country to join the ANC, and also for the fear that I felt inside my heart, not a fear of an individual, but I was afraid for the reaction that I would get from other comrades should it be discovered that I had committed this act. The reason for going there to take part is also for the fact that I did want to acquire money so as to enable me to skip the country. MR HARKOO How much money did you require to skip the country? Approximately. MR KHUMALO I did not require cash as such. Until such time that these two comrades approached me that there was money available that would assist us in escaping into exile, prior to that I was of the belief that the UDF and the ANC had means of enabling people to skip the country. Also, there were people who did this voluntarily, because joining the ANC or going abroad to join the ANC, was not like organising an outing next the beach. Sometimes people did organise transport that would perhaps take them towards the border, say the Swaziland border, so that they are able to skip the border. MR HARKOO Yes, precisely, and this is the point I'm trying to make, that you didn't need the money to go to Lusaka out of the proceeds from this robbery, isn't that so? MR KHUMALO I will put it that way, that yes, from what I thought I did not think that I needed to acquire money from such means to be able to skip the country. MR HARKOO Yes, and furthermore, your father was the owner of taxis, isn't that so? MR KHUMALO Are you referring to my natural father? MR HARKOO Your natural father, yes. MR KHUMALO No, at that time my father was a mechanic, he would acquire vehicles and fix them up and sell them thereafter. He was not a taxi business person. Because even at this point he is not a well-to-do taxi owner. MR HARKOO Well whilst he may not be well-to-do, if you needed to go through to Lusaka, he would have helped you, isn't that so? Had you approached him? MR KHUMALO This is very painful for me. You see, my father, Mr Khumalo, could not even buy me a pair of socks ...(intervention) MR HARKOO Yes, all I need to know is that had you approached your father, would he have assisted you? MR KHUMALO No. MR HARKOO But he did assist you when he bought the goat, didn't he? MR KHUMALO He did not assist me, I bought that goat myself from the money I made from temporary jobs. MR HARKOO Yes, but earlier in your evidence when you were questioned by the Chair, you said you received by working part-time, but earlier in your evidence you mentioned that your father assisted in buying the goat. Yes, isn't that so? MR KHUMALO Perhaps I was not well understood. What I stated was, I resided at Clermont and my father at Mzinyati in Inanda, therefore it was proper that girls from my girlfriends neighbourhood had to go to my father's place and because of the fact that Cleophas did not want anything to do with this woman, they were forced to go to my father's house, that is Mr Khumalo. That is where they received money that is normally used to cleanse the house. That amount is about R60. But with regards to the goat, I bought that goat from the money that I made from the casual work I did at Highway Mill. That was before I went to Pietermaritzburg to get another job so that I could look after my child. CHAIRPERSON My note is that you said your father had bought a goat. After you were telling us about getting Dumisani to come with you and take R300 to your in-laws, you had damaged their daughter who had had two children and at that stage you then said you went with Dumisani, that your father had previously bought a goat. That's my colleague's note. We can check the record and hear you say it if necessary. MR KHUMALO I would not have a problem with that. It is also possible that I may have made a mistake or perhaps I was not well understood when I mentioned that, but I bought the goat myself. My mother can attest to that fact. MR HARKOO Okay. Now the point is that had you approached, for example, had you approached the ANC or the UDF at that point in time, they would have assisted you in going to Lusaka, isn't that so? MR KHUMALO I would say yes, I had done before. I don't know if I may explain that further. MR HARKOO Yes, you did and that is why I want to put it to you that when you told this Committee that the plan was to get the money and then go to Lusaka, there is no link, there is no bearing on the issue of going to Lusaka and the robbery. MR KHUMALO I will repeat what I have stated before. Prior to 1988, this intention of the desire to go to Lusaka had been with me. I knew about MK, APLA and other organisations prior to 1988, it was something that I knew before this time. I even informed Mr Archie Gumede after my detention that I was inside a terrible situation, that I would like to go outside the borders of this country. Mr Gumede's complaint was "If you leave this country, comrades such as Madala would have no-one to look up to because you are the one person whom they are able to respect and listen to." We were always in Mr Gumede's company and we looked after him, because he had no-one to protect him. In that way we always wondered how he survived attacks on him, that is why we were always in his company, to accompany him wherever he went. MR HARKOO Okay now Mr Khumalo, the point I was going to make is that the robbery would have had no bearing as to whether you would have gone to Lusaka or not gone to Lusaka. You've mentioned that the planning was discussed with you that morning, or the robbery incident was discussed with you and you had time to think about it. It is quite obvious then that you appreciated the wrongfulness of your actions at that point in time, isn't that so? MR KHUMALO Sir, sometimes a man has to think deeply. At no point did I enjoy or was enthusiastic about robbing anyone. If perhaps my leaders or UDF leaders were robbers, I would perhaps say I was proud of what happened in Reservoir Hills, but that is not so. I have never prided myself on what happened. Up to this day I do not take pride in what happened. That is why I also applied for amnesty. It is not really an intention to perhaps beg for forgiveness or for the people at Reservoir Hills to forgive me, but I wanted to explain to be able to tell, divulge everything that happened. MR HARKOO Yes, I appreciate that, but the point is that at that point in time prior to you having continued with the incident, you had time to think and you appreciated your wrongfulness, you appreciated that it was not the right thing to do and that is the reason why you didn't make a decision on the turn, you thought about it. Isn't that so? MR KHUMALO That is correct, that is true. CHAIRPERSON And if you could have done it you would have walked away from it, wouldn't you? MR KHUMALO If I was an ordinary person in the street who was not involved in a lot of other things, perhaps I could have got an opportunity to run away. If I had not met these persons when I left that place of residence, perhaps I would have been able to flee, but unfortunately I did meet them on the way. If perhaps on a Thursday prior to this day I could have found a place to hide, yes I would have. MR HARKOO In your evidence earlier I didn't quite understand what you said about the area being Reservoir Hills. At one stage you mentioned that you have never been there and then you at some stage went on to say well you knew the area because you schooled around there. Now what is the position, have you been to this area before? MR KHUMALO For speakers of isiZulu, they would understand the nature of the language. When I say I did not know Reservoir Hills I meant I had not been inside the area before, but as a person who was schooled at kwaMashu, I will see it from the bus as we were passing. MR HARKOO So you have been - so you've schooled nearby, you have been to the area, is that correct now? MR KHUMALO Let me restate this. I did pass by Reservoir Hills on my way to school. MR HARKOO So you knew the area. MR KHUMALO From what I saw of it in the bus. MR HARKOO Yes, so when you mentioned earlier on that you've never been there, that wasn't true, isn't that so? MR KHUMALO Sir, I would make you an example. I know FNB stadium from seeing it on TV, but I've never been there. So if I say I know Reservoir Hills, I did not mean I had been inside the area. For you to know the area it is not necessary for you to have been inside. CHAIRPERSON Where did the bus run from to kwaMashu? MR KHUMALO From Clermont and it will pass through Reservoir Hills and the hotel would be visible from that route. MR HARKOO Okay. Your involvement in the incident itself, you were merely acting as a guard, as a look-out person, isn't that so? MR KHUMALO That is correct. MR HARKOO Now you've mentioned in your evidence that you only went in after you heard at least two shots being fired. MR KHUMALO That's correct. MR HARKOO So you cannot say precisely what happened inside before you went there. MR KHUMALO I like that statement. True it is difficult for me to explain what happened or who did what, but I know what I did. When I made the statement I was of the view that the person who shot the people inside was Siphiso, because he's the only one who had a firearm. I only learnt later that people who were killed there were stabbed to death, because I did not see who assaulted whom with what. MR HARKOO Yes, you did not see what happened prior to you going in. Now did any of your colleagues tell you what happened inside, after the incident? MR KHUMALO The situation in which we found ourselves was new to us, none amongst us had been involved in such an incident, therefore we were not even able to discuss who did what or what had happened, but the person who carried the firearm said he had been able to shoot and he had believed that if there were people who were killed in the incident, they would have died from gunshot wounds. That is what we all believed. That was until I learnt that those people were stabbed. MR HARKOO Yes, but up until the time that you were charged, or you've heard that people were killed, you were not informed, you were not told by your colleagues as to what happened inside, isn't that so? Apart from the fact that they just shot. MR KHUMALO It is not easy to admit to anything after committing such a crime. Even if I had done something like that, if I had shot someone, I do not think I would have admitted that because at that time the South African Police were able to torture a person to an extent that you would admit to something you did not do. That is why no-one would volunteer the information of who did what. That is also the reason why I think I did not even get to hear who had killed the people inside. MR HARKOO Yes. Mr Khumalo, I want to refer you to page 107 of your documents. At page 107, about eight lines from the bottom, you state there in your affidavit "The reason why I entered was because when Siphiso Kwela entered and warned the victims that that was an armed robbery, they took no heed and he fired one warning shot up. I then realised it drew attention of other people who were outside and I entered in order to scare them with my firearm." Do you see that? MR KHUMALO Yes, I do. MR HARKOO Yes. You give an explanation as to why you entered and your explanation is that the victims did not heed a warning, is that correct? MR KHUMALO I would say yes, because the windows and the door are made of glass. Although I did not see who fired a shot and as I stepped into the room I could see the person who had a firearm pointed upwards, which means that perhaps they did not take heed of what he was saying. I do not know whether I explained this, but the person who was next to the door was gesturing something with his hands. He is the person who fell to the ground. I did not know whether the bullet that had been fired upwards is the one that had hit him or perhaps he had been stabbed. MR HARKOO Yes, the point Mr Khumalo, as you've said earlier, prior to you entering you did not know what was going on inside, is that correct? MR KHUMALO I did not know, except for the gunshot that I heard and I realised that that drew the attention of people outside. MR HARKOO Yes. And following on that, the reason or the explanation that you give for entering follows that it cannot be true. MR KHUMALO I do not quite follow your reasoning, do you perhaps have another reason why I entered the store? MR KHUMALO The only reason that I could find, Mr Khumalo, is that you are not telling the truth. You haven't told the truth then and you are not telling the truth now. That is my explanation. MR KHUMALO I will then ask you Sir, at what point did I not tell the truth because as I stated, I stood outside so that I am on the lookout, but when the shot was fired I was forced to go inside because I did not want to leave my comrades inside not knowing whether they are being fired at or they are the people doing the shooting and as I stepped inside I saw Siphiso, he was behind the counter and pointing his firearm upwards. MR HARKOO Mr Khumalo, have you seen the affidavit that was submitted by Mrs Sitima(?) Reddy and was filed in these documents? It may not be part of the bundle, but it was attached separately. Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I think you have a copy of the affidavit. You see in that document Mrs Reddy attempts to explain what transpired, what she's finally heard of the incident and on the second page, it begins on the top, referring to her late husband, if we could start at the first page, at the bottom she goes on to state: "Whilst my husband was in hospital he attempted to relate the incident to members of my family. He informed them that when he was approached by about five black males at the time, he told them to take the money and go but not to hurt or harm anybody. My husband further informed them that despite his plea the said black males indiscriminate-ly attacked and killed my 17-year-old son who was in matric at the time, and stabbed him. My husband later died of stab-wounds." Now you cannot dispute that prior to your entrance in that bottle store, that it could very well have been those persons that were inside may have said "Take what you want but leave us alone". It may not have been those words but the gist of it. MR KHUMALO Sir, we cannot get into a lengthy debate about that. It is true I did not hear them, hear anything of that nature and I did not see them speaking to a woman, but when I went inside there were males inside the bottle store ...(intervention) MR HARKOO Yes sorry, that document was drawn by Mrs Reddy referring to what she has been informed by her late husband who was in the bottle store. So likewise, as you say, you cannot dispute that, you also cannot categorically state that those persons who were inside did not heed any warning. MR KHUMALO Yes, I cannot dispute that. MR HARKOO And for the record, Mr Chairperson, I should have pointed this out earlier, the post-mortem on page 153, reflects the male being 28, plus-minus 28 years old. My instructions are that this person was in fact 17 years old, he was in matric, but he looked fairly mature and it could have been an oversight on the part of the pathologist. CHAIRPERSON While we're on that, it's my impression and I speak subject to correction, that none of the two post-mortems, neither of them refer to any bullet wounds, all stab-wounds, or incised wounds. MR HARKOO Yes, that would be correct. As was pointed out, Mr Khumalo, you also cannot dispute that those persons who were in fact killed, were killed through stab-wounds and not bullet wounds. They were stabbed. MR KHUMALO That is correct, Sir. MR HARKOO And if I refer you to the post-mortem report, that of the - I think it is on page 154, if you look at the middle of that page, this person had stab-wounds, among other places, on the neck and on around the shoulder area. It says on point number two in the middle of the page "Multiple needle puncture wounds present on each side of both left and right infra-clavicular areas." meaning the shoulder areas. So it is quite apparent that this person was in fact stabbed a number of times in that area. You cannot dispute that can you, because you haven't seen it? MR KHUMALO That is correct, I did not see when that happened. MR HARKOO But the incident as you see it now, I'm sure you will agree with me is clearly an indication or an impression that these people were mercilessly and indiscriminately attacked. Isn't that so? MR KHUMALO That's correct. MR HARKOO Yes. And if this was an attempt to merely gain money and go away, they could very well have taken the money and gone. Like what you've done when you ran in. As you say in your version, you grabbed the monies from the tins and the till and you ran out. They could have also done that. Isn't that so? MR KHUMALO As I mentioned before I cannot speak on their behalf, therefore I would not venture to answer on their behalf, because I do not know what situation they faced when they went inside, but when I went inside I did what was our primary aim, that is to take the money and leave. It is therefore difficult to state what situation they found themselves in for them to stab Mr Reddy. MR HARKOO Yes, but you will accept that they could very well have gone in and taken the stuff, taken the money and gone out without having to attack anybody. MR KHUMALO The people I'm referring to, that is Siphiso and Maxwell, grew up with me and were in the struggle with me. Dumisani and the driver were people I did not know very well, but I do not know anything about them, that they were involved in robberies and such matters. So I cannot say if there was any reason that persuaded or pressured them into becoming murderers. But it hurt me that I was involved in such an act because I had been involved in political conflict and people who died in the course of that conflict did not bother me, but I did not know that when we attained our freedom I would be afforded this opportunity to come before this Committee and divulge whatever matters. That is how I came about to be able to divulge what happened at that incident. MR HARKOO Mr Khumalo, shortly before the incident you were aware that these persons, or at least one of them, had a firearm, isn't that so? MR KHUMALO Yes. MR HARKOO And you were aware that one of them had a knife. MR KHUMALO Yes. MR HARKOO You were also - from what I understand, you were not too happy about having a firearm that did not work. MR KHUMALO Sir, whether the gun worked or did not work was not a factor that really concerned me, because if I had wanted a firearm that worked I had access to more than eight firearms. If it had been my intention to use them, because when these people approached me they knew that I had firearms, therefore I could have used one of those and I could have even borrowed some to my co-accused. ADV SANDI Sorry, just explain this to me, how did it - in the light of what you have just said now, how did it come about then that you ended up using a defective firearm? MR KHUMALO The firearm that we are referring to, as I mentioned before, Diba and Maxwell were comrades with whom I was involved in protecting the leaders at the township. When this firearm was first brought to me it was mentioned that it does not work. I had this firearm on one day, that is before this incident at Reservoir Hills, and I wanted to test it. I pointed it upwards and fired it and therefore I went back to these other comrades and told them that the firearm worked. After several months they came back to me and told me that it doesn't work. The reason why they gave it to me was because I was familiar with firearms and because I had handled that firearm before. Therefore, although it did not work they were confident that if I point it at people they would be convinced that indeed it does work. CHAIRPERSON How much longer are you going to be? More than two minutes? MR HARKOO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Would this be a convenient stage, because arrangements, I gather, have been made to return persons to the prison and we were told then that they would be able to do so at four thirty. I think we should honour that undertaking and take the adjournment now till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. I would like to put something on record though at this stage, I'm not quite sure exactly what I put to you, but I think I put to you that there was no evidence of any gunshot wounds, but if you look at page 169, there's a report of somebody being taken to hospital with a gunshot wound. But perhaps during the adjournment somebody could check up who these people are on page 168 and 169, identify them and tell us tomorrow morning. MR HARKOO Yes, there were gunshot wounds, except that those that were killed ... CHAIRPERSON Were killed weren't, but the others. MR HARKOO The others were, two others were shot. CHAIRPERSON If you can check on that. MR HARKOO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Right, we'll adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS