amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-24 PINETOWN ZOLO KUSHLE MADALA MNYANDU https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54223&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200524pi.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Mnyandu are you Zolo Kushle Madala Mnyandu? ZOLO KUSHLE MADALA MNYANDU (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMMED Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mnyandu, I'm showing you an application, an application form which was filled in. The form is in English and you have signed this form. I wish to confirm that prior to you signing this form it was interpreted to you in Zulu. You confirmed the correctness and thereafter you signed the form? MR MNYANDU Yes that is correct. MS MOHAMMED Thank you. On the second page in paragraph 9(a) lists the incidents for which you are applying for amnesty and it reads as follows. CHAIRPERSON Have you got a spare copy of that form? It was one of the original bunch? MS MOHAMMED No. Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mnyandu, on page two of this application in paragraph 9(a)i, it lists the offences for which you are applying for amnesty. They read as follows: "The murder of Mr Mapamolo, Mr Sibias Makatini, Mr Vusi Maduna, Mr Simi Nzuza. Mr Jamile, Mr Kalala Kubu Kahula and Lushaba and were injured in a bomb explosion and robbery." Do you confirm that? MR MNYANDU Yes I do. MS MOHAMMED But for the purposes of this hearing it has been agreed that your testimony will be confined specifically to the murder of Mr Vusi Maduna and the murder of Mr Simi Nzuza. MR MNYANDU Yes. MS MOHAMMED Thank you. Can you tell the Committee what sentence you are presently serving at Westville Prison? MR MNYANDU I'm serving a 23 year prison term. MS MOHAMMED What is this for? MR MNYANDU It's for the murder of Mr Mapamolo as well as two counts of escaping from custody as well as possession of a firearm. MS MOHAMMED Thank you. Is it correct to say, Mr Mnyandu, that in the early 1980's you were a member of the UDF and more specifically the Clermont Youth League? MR MNYANDU That is correct. MS MOHAMMED I'm going to take you now to the incident of the killing of Mr Simi Nzuza. Now on the day that he was killed, you were walking on King's Road in Clermont, is that correct? MR MNYANDU That is correct. MS MOHAMMED Now while you were walking on that road, - sorry let me rephrase that. Why were you walking on that road? MR MNYANDU I had left home for school, Sitengile Junior Secondary School. I had prior knowledge that on that day there was not going to be any learning at school but there was a campaign that was to be launched against Seniors who were harassing us at Clermont at the time. So I was on my way to school along King's Road when I cast my eye across at section KK and saw some students. I remember pupils from two schools, one goes to Sukuzili Junior Secondary School as well as pupils from Temkele Junior Secondary School. As they were going down a footpath leading to Sitengile, the pupils from Sitengile School were also on their way out so that they were three schools assembled there all together, that is Sitengile, Sukuzili and Temkele Schools. I then stood at the corner near Mr Tubazani's home waiting for all those students who were proceeding towards the road. MS MOHAMMED So was it your intention to then join the students? MR MNYANDU Yes it was my intention to join the students because I did have that knowledge that on that specific day we would be on a campaign looking for this Seniors men. MS MOHAMMED Were you armed at the time? MR MNYANDU Yes I was. MS MOHAMMED What weapon were you carrying? MR MNYANDU I had a knife, an Okapi knife. MS MOHAMMED Okay, now can you tell us what happened thereafter? Sorry, Mr Chairperson, if I may at this stage - the applicant is presently wearing dark shaded glasses. It's my understanding that he sustained an injury to his eye years ago and he is more comfortable if that is kept covered. Thank you. Thank you Mr Mnyandu, you can proceed? MR MNYANDU As I was still waiting for the comrades the pupils from Zipatele school had also seen these students approaching. MS MOHAMMED Now Mr Mnyandu, sorry, I understand at some stage the students did gather and at some stage you saw Simi Nzuza? MR MNYANDU Yes. MS MOHAMMED Maybe we can take it from there, from the point when you saw him? MR MNYANDU As we were all assembled there I saw Spomba Gumede and Philani Khumalo as well as Ndo Maraba. I heard Comrade Philani saying "Comrades, here is Simi, should we leave him?" and we all turned around and at that time Simi recognised us too and he started running away and he was pursued by the students and myself included, he fled right across the road towards some shacks that we had below that area. He tried to hide there and there were many of us pursuing him. We tried to persuade him to come out and I threatened him that if he doesn't come out we were going to burn down that shack. On hearing that, he came out. I did not see whether he escaped through a window or a door but he just started running towards some house and he was pursued and surrounded by the comrades and on my arrival there at that spot people were already stabbing him. I also took out my knife and participated in the stabbing. MS MOHAMMED Why did you stab Simi? MR MNYANDU I stabbed Simi for the reason that he worked with the police, in other words he was an informer. MS MOHAMMED Thank you. I'm now going to take you to the incident of the killing of Vusi Maduna. Can you recall that incident? MR MNYANDU Yes I do. MS MOHAMMED Now on that particular day were you in Clermont? MR MNYANDU Yes I was. MS MOHAMMED Can you tell us at what point you saw Vusi Maduna? MR MNYANDU I saw him on a Saturday morning at the bus rank in front of Mr Zaza's shop. MS MOHAMMED Okay and what was he doing there, do you know? MR MNYANDU I was standing across my home on 21st Avenue road. I was on a bicycle. On that day the comrades were preparing to go and attend a funeral, I think at kwaMashu and that funeral was for comrades who had been killed by the IFP. I was not going to attend that funeral because I had other commitments. As I was still standing there I saw a commotion from across and I therefore rode on my bicycle and proceeded towards the rank. MS MOHAMMED So where was this commotion taking place? MR MNYANDU It took place at the rank near Zaza's shop. I was standing near my home which was just across. I therefore went to check what was going on there and discovered that it was a group of comrades involved there and on enquiry, I learnt that Vusi Maduna who had been involved in selling out comrades to the police who was being assaulted. I therefore then decided to also take part in that attack. MS MOHAMMED Okay, now where was Vusi at this time when you reached the rank and you realised that all of this was happening. Where was Vusi? MR MNYANDU I found him in a bus. MS MOHAMMED And what did you do thereafter? MR MNYANDU On arrival I and Spomba Gumede broke the back window of the bus and entered from there and we went to him from behind and hit him on the head and pushed him towards the bus steps. As he fell Spomba Gumede assaulted him with a bush knife. Philani was standing at the steps and he also assaulted him. After that I could not see what was going on. There was a commotion because at that time Vusi was lying down. I instructed one comrade by the name of Jabu to go look for petrol. She did this and returned with the petrol which I poured over him and set him alight. MS MOHAMMED Now why did you assault Vusi Maduna like this. What was your reason for doing this? MR MNYANDU The motive for doing that was because on our arrival in Hammarsdale we were attacked by police. On that day we were attending a funeral for certain comrades and the police came and instructed us to disperse in five minutes. MS MOHAMMED So how was this police attack on you linked to Vusi Maduna, Mr Mnyandu? MR MNYANDU On of those policemen called Vusi and said he should tell his friends to disperse in five minutes. At that time Vusi stood on top of the Casspir and said "Comrades, these boers say you must disperse now". I and other comrades were shocked as to how our comrade can afford to do something like that, to be given a loudspeaker by a boer and inform us to disperse. After that the policemen assaulted us and some of our comrades were arrested. On enquiring about this comrade we were informed that even regarding the death of these comrades whose funeral we were going to attend, he was implicated in their deaths as an informer. MS MOHAMMED Thank you. Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMMED MR HARKOO Thank you, I have no questions, Chairperson NO QUESTIONS BY MR HARKOO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY I'm just going to be very brief. Mr Mnyandu, did the comrades every communicate with the leadership of the youth league. I mean yourself, Mr Khumalo and all other comrades that were involved in the incidents of Nzuza and Mnyandu? MR MNYANDU Please repeat that question? MR PANDAY Okay, when dealing with Mnyandu and Nzuza, the killing of the two, did you ever communicate your actions with the leadership of the youth league? MR MNYANDU No, we did not discuss with them. MR PANDAY And who was the leader of your youth league? MR MNYANDU It was Bheki Luthuli. MR PANDAY Now wouldn't it be practise that the leader should issue orders of this nature? MR MNYANDU From what we had heard of Vusi Maduna and because of the way we felt about it, there was no time to discuss it further. We took the decision that he should be attacked and killed. No one issued any specific instruction that he should be killed. MR PANDAY For how long did you know that he was an informer? MR MNYANDU I heard when we were returning from the funeral at Hammarsdale, that is when comrades from his area told us that he was an informer. MR PANDAY And was that the reason he was killed? MR MNYANDU No, he was not killed on that day. MR PANDAY And for any reason why the comrades from Hammarsdale did not kill him? MR MNYANDU The comrades I'm referring to were not close to him because they were in hiding at Clermont, who had fled their homes because of the IFP there. MR PANDAY Now did you know that Mr Maduna was the leader of the Hammarsdale Youth League? MR MNYANDU No, I did not know that he was the chairperson, I just knew that he was a comrade. MR PANDAY Now did you know that he should educate and promote the principles of the UDF and the ANC in Hammarsdale? MR MNYANDU No, I did not know that, I knew him as a comrade from Hammarsdale. MR PANDAY On that day that he was killed, did you know the reason why you were going to kill him? MR MNYANDU The reason that I can state is that he sold us out at Hammarsdale. Secondly, he is the one person, he used to come into Clermont and influence people to return to Hammarsdale and on their return they would be murdered and we would later learn that Vusi had been responsible for convincing that person to return to Hammarsdale. MR PANDAY And do you know of any of these people that were convinced to return to Hammarsdale, do you know their names? MR MNYANDU I can recall the name of Samson. MR PANDAY Do you know anyone now? MR MNYANDU Could you please repeat the question? MR PANDAY Do you know any names now? MR MNYANDU Are you referring to people who were murdered? MR PANDAY Yes, the Hammarsdale people that fled. MR MNYANDU The people who had fled Hammarsdale for Clermont? MR PANDAY Yes. MR MNYANDU It was Skoloza Shlahla, Mosi Hhlope and Skangi. MR PANDAY And where are these people now? MR MNYANDU I do not know their whereabouts. MR PANDAY Mr Mnyandu, Mr Maduna's brother is present and he will testify if need be that all that is being said by you and Mr Khumalo is a lie insofar as him being an informer. Would you dispute that? MR MNYANDU No, what I know is what I heard from comrades from Hammarsdale was that Vusi was a sell out and an informer. That is what I know. MR PANDAY Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chairperson. With regard to Mr Maduna, did you know him personally? MR MNYANDU I did not know Mr Maduna. I first knew him on that day I attended the funeral of comrades at Hammarsdale, that's where I first saw him. MS THABETHE Now isn't it possible that as a chairperson of the ANC in Hammarsdale, that's the reason why the police called him to tell his comrades to disperse? Isn't that possible? MR MNYANDU I would not know about that because even at Clermont, if something for instance took place or we were assembled, I do not remember any of our leaders, people like Bheki Luthuli being called by the police to tell us to disperse. MS THABETHE It's common cause, we've heard from other hearings ...(intervention) INTERPRETER Would the Evidence Leader please wait for the interpretation? MS THABETHE Okay. JUDGE POTGIETER You don't have a headset on so you can't hear, you're speaking directly to the witness. MS THABETHE Sorry. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes. Can the interpreter just repeat that? It was halfway through when you started talking, Ms Thabethe. INTERPRETER Yes, I was requesting Ms Thabethe to wait for the interpretation to be completed. MS THABETHE I'm indebted to you. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, you were saying that even in Clermont he doesn't know of any of the leaders. INTERPRETER Yes alright, okay. The applicant said that even in Clermont when they had meetings or when they had events he does not remember any police requesting their leaders, people like Bheki Luthuli or Happy to call upon them to disperse. MS THABETHE My next question is, isn't it common cause, Mr Mnyandu, that if there were toyi-toyiing or marches the police would call a person that they know is a comrade to tell the others to disperse or sometimes what they would do they would use a loudspeaker and tell the people to disperse? Didn't that sometimes occur? MR MNYANDU I had never witnessed that in Clermont. CHAIRPERSON But had you never witnessed the police telling people to disperse? MR MNYANDU The police would tell people to disperse. MS THABETHE But you'd never encountered a situation where they call one of the people especially if they know the leader to say tell your people to disperse, you've never seen such a situation? MR MNYANDU I had never witnessed it in our marches or whenever we held activities ADV SANDI Don't you think it would be a matter of common sense on the part of the police to talk to a person they've identified as a leader of the group that look, tell your people to disperse otherwise we're going to take action against them. Isn't that common sense? MR MNYANDU I do not know about that, I did not believe that a white person would call a comrade amongst us to tell his people to disperse. ADV SANDI By telling you as a crowd that the police were saying you must now disperse, how was he betraying the struggle simply by conveying the message of the police to you as a crowd that they say you must now disperse? How was he selling out? MR MNYANDU It was the manner in which he handled himself because when other comrades were telling him that they would not do that, he was seen to be selling out because he was being delegated by the police to tell us to disperse. MS THABETHE Why I'm asking you this, Mr Mnyandu, it's because as you say, you didn't know Mr Maduna, you had never met him before this incident, you were going to a funeral and we've heard evidence from the lawyer of the victims that Mr Maduna was - besides the fact that he was the chairperson in the area, he used to conduct education, he used to educate people about the ANC, he was quite involved in the area, he would have been well known in other words. Hence probably why he was also well known to the police. Do you want to comment? MR MNYANDU As I mentioned before, I saw him there for the first time. I did not know that he was involved in educating people about the UDF and such. What I heard was that he was an informer. MS THABETHE And yet of course you ordered that petrol be brought and you've testified that you've actually conducted the burning of him, isn't it? CHAIRPERSON He's told us that, hasn't he? MS THABETHE Yes. MR MNYANDU Yes, because I was of the belief that anyone who colluded with the police or the IFP should be burnt. MS THABETHE With regard to Simi Nzuza, there's a statement that you wrote to the TRC. It's from Mr Mazibuko or rather under enquiries it's written Mr Mazibuko, the front page is application for amnesty Madala Mnyandu, there is a letter there that you wrote to the TRC as an amnesty application. On page 3 of the translation you've indicated that the second paragraph, the fifth line, that the Philani announced his decision that sell out must be killed. He doesn't have it. Don't you have it? Sorry Mr Chairperson, it looks like Ms Mohammed doesn't have a copy. MS MOHAMMED I don't have the translation - I've only got ...(intervention) MS THABETHE It's at the back, you should have a translation. MS MOHAMMED All that I've got is the Zulu version. MR PANDAY We've given her the translation, now we can move on. MS THABETHE I just wanted to clarify whether you are suggesting that a decision was made by Philani that Simi Nzuza be killed. Do you maintain that? MR PANDAY Yes. MS THABETHE And when was this decision made? Was it before the march that led to him being killed that day? MR MNYANDU It was made when we saw Simi approaching in the company of soldiers. MS THABETHE Sorry, Mr Mnyandu, I just wanted you to answer, exactly when before he was actually killed was this decision made. Was it two days before he was killed, a week before he was killed? MR MNYANDU It was taken on the 13th June. MS THABETHE Which year? MR MNYANDU 1986. MS THABETHE So would it be correct to say from June 1986 there was a decision that was made that he should be killed but in actual fact it was effected in January 1987? MR MNYANDU That is correct. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE MS MOHAMMED I have no re-examination, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI The Hammarsdale comrades, did they tell you how long they had known or suspected that Vusi was an informer? MR MNYANDU No, I did not receive an explanation with regards to that. ADV SANDI Did they tell you if they wanted to do anything about the matter of Vusi being an informer? MR MNYANDU Yes. ADV SANDI What did they say? MR MNYANDU They wanted him to be killed. ADV SANDI Did they tell you why they had not killed him? MR MNYANDU Those comrades from Hammarsdale were in Clermont and they were just airing their opinions that he should be killed and unfortunately he came to Clermont voluntarily and found comrades assembled there for a funeral that was to take place in kwaMashu. That is how we came across those comrades and that is how he came to be killed. ADV SANDI Are you saying that they simply intended to kill him but they were not asking you to kill him? MR MNYANDU I do not quite follow? ADV SANDI Did they say you must kill him? MR MNYANDU They did not request us to kill him but it was us together with the comrades from Hammarsdale who killed him. ADV SANDI Did they tell you whether their leaders had any view on the matter, what did their leaders say, the UDF leaders from Hammarsdale, what did they say about this thing of Vusi being allegedly an informer? MR MNYANDU I did not hear anything about the leaders from Hammarsdale. It was only what I heard from the foot soldiers, the comrades on the ground who were complaining about Vusi. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY Just one question, Mr Chairperson, stemming from - Mr Mnyandu, you testified that on the day Mr Maduna was approached, you were at your house and you had your personal business to attend to, is that correct? MR MNYANDU Please repeat that question? MR PANDAY You testified that ...(intervention) JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, he said there was going to be a funeral at kwaMashu ...(intervention) MR PANDAY And you were not going to attend the funeral. JUDGE POTGIETER He was standing on his bicycle, opposite the house where he was living, he didn't intend to go to the funeral when he saw some or other commotion near the bus rank at Zaza's shop. MR PANDAY Now, Mr Mnyandu, my question to you is that is it correct that on that day you yourself had no orders to participate in any sort of disciplinary measure on Vusi Maduna? MR MNYANDU It was something I had not expected on that day. MR PANDAY Okay thank you, that's fine. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY WITNESS EXCUSED