amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-05-25 PINETOWN 4 ELIJAH NYAWUZA AM3010/96 MURDER OF MR LEMBEDE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54230&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200525pi.htm ELIJAH NYAWUZA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Dehal. MR DEHAL Thank you Sir. EXAMINATION BY MR DEHAL Mr Nyawuza, you are the father of the first applicant, correct? MR NYAWUZA Yes. MR DEHAL My question was, are you the father of the first applicant, Mr Nyawuza? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL And you stood trial at some stage together with your son and the other applicants in this matter on a charge of murder of Mr Lembede, correct? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL Thank you. Now I show you on pages 34 to 40 of the main bundle an application. Do you confirm that this is your application for amnesty? Have a look at this. MR NYAWUZA Yes, I do. MR DEHAL Now in the consultation I had with you, I've been through this application with you. You recall that this application of yours talks about you being hired to transport certain persons who were going to kill the IFP members and you say this in paragraph 9(a)(i) on page 35 of the bundle. You did so on the 12th of June 1991, but you did not do anything but wait in the car for them to finish and then you took them back home. Remember that? Is that correct? MR NYAWUZA Yes, that is so, but I was not hired. MR DEHAL You also said in the next page, page 36, that after the killing, that's in the last sentence of the second paragraph thereof, you say after 30 minutes they came back and said "We must go because they got him". Did you understand by that that Mr Lembede was executed, was killed? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL So you knew as they returned to the vehicle that Mr Lembede was by then killed, correct? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL See on page 37 of your application, under paragraph 9(c)(i) you say "I only heard in Court that Lembede died." That can't be correct, can it? MR NYAWUZA No, that is not true. MR DEHAL Now I don't see - sorry. Firstly, your original application was formulated in the Zulu language with the application being one in the Zulu language as well, as contained on page 41 onwards of this bundle, but unfortunately Mr Chairperson, I see that the relevant page of 9(c) is missing, that means page 3 of the application is missing, all we have is on page 42 of the bundle, page 2 of the application, on page 43 of the bundle, page 4 of the application with page 3 missing in between, so I don't really have the Zulu to establish whether in fact the interpretation's correct or not, but be that as it may. MS THABETHE Come again. Where is that? MR DEHAL Page 42, page 43 of the main bundle, you'll see that that is page 2 and page 4 of the application and page 3 of the original application is not here and the reason I mention it ... CHAIRPERSON Nor are others, because if you go - page 43 is page 4, then page 44 and then page 45 has suddenly become page 7. MR DEHAL Indeed, page 4, 5 and 6 are all missing and page 7. CHAIRPERSON No, page 7 is there, page 45 is page 7. MR DEHAL Oh yes, indeed. CHAIRPERSON But page 8 is missing. MR DEHAL Correct. CHAIRPERSON How can that be? JUDGE POTGIETER ...(indistinct - mike not on) CHAIRPERSON It must originally have been on separate papers, not on both sides of the sheet and whoever made the photocopy has made a complete mess of it. MR DEHAL Yes. May I proceed Sir, I think this will be sorted out and nothing will turn on it, once you hear the rest of the evidence. Mr Nyawuza you are not able to read or write either Zulu or English, is that correct? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL And that the original application albeit completed in Zulu was in fact dictated by you and hand-written by somebody else and you could not check the correctness of what he recorded but trusted that he who recorded same, did so in regard to what you told him verbatim and therefore signed it? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL Now I take you to pages 24, sorry pages 2 to 4 of the additional bundle. Is that the affidavit that you recently deposed to whilst in custody, to one of the lawyers in the employ of the firm that I am from and do you confirm the contents thereof as correct? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL Then may I take you now to pages 48 of the main bundle, being another affidavit, or what purports to be an affidavit? Can I just show you this? Mr Nyawuza, this is page 48 and 49 of the typed transcript of a hand-written affidavit on pages 50, 51 and 52. Do you recall this affidavit and do you confirm that this cross on page 51 is in fact yours, or is it not? MR NYAWUZA I do use a cross when I sign, but I do not know about the statement. MR DEHAL Now is it correct that having been - sorry, being contained in this bundle I together with some other lawyers in my office consulted with you on this statement, and you advised us that you do not agree with the contents of this and that this statement could at best have been formulated by those two persons of the TRC that visited you pursuant to which your application was withdrawn? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL And when I read this statement to you, you said that apart from of course your name and the rest, your date of birth which you must have given to them, the contents do not accord with your version and is therefore incorrect. Do you agree? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL In any case, even if the signature on page 51, being a cross, is yours and you said you have some doubts about that, you may have signed it without it being read to you, in any case you can't read and you did not read it, correct? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL Thank you. JUDGE POTGIETER In other words, Mr Nyawuza, are you saying that this document that they put before us here, was made up by these people, these people that work for us? They made this entire story up, that is contained in this documents? MR NYAWUZA I did not make statements to TRC members in prison because there was a disagreement between myself and the male employee of the TRC, I only requested the lady to inform me of my rights and her companion said there was nothing that I could tell him about this incident because he knew about it because he had been based at the Isipingo Police Station and that was the reason why I decided, or I said I was not prepared to continue with the matter. JUDGE POTGIETER Oh it's the lady that has signed this statement that is before us, so are you saying that whatever is put in this statement, this lady made up herself? MR NYAWUZA I did not make a statement to them except to say that I was withdrawing from the TRC. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes. MR NYAWUZA Because we had a disagreement with her male companion. I wondered what he wanted because when I asked her to inform me of my rights, he said there was nothing that she could tell me, because we just killed somebody out of our own volition. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, no I think I understand what you're saying. Ms Thabethe, is this person here? MS THABETHE She was in Bloemfontein, but I'm just writing a note to Penny to phone her because I think it's very, very important that she comes and testifies. JUDGE POTGIETER Please, please. Alright. Carry on. MR DEHAL Thank you. Whilst we're on this affidavit, Mr Nyawuza, may I just read paragraph 6 to you in which it said "I strongly believe now that this activity was not political because I learned later that the victim Lembede was not involved in any political organisation although I was an ANC member. On that note I wish to withdraw my application for amnesty, because I have already served some term of imprisonment." Now would you have ever said something like this? MR NYAWUZA No. MR DEHAL Did you at all times intend to pursue your application for amnesty? MR NYAWUZA Yes. MR DEHAL And did you at all times harbour under the belief that both you and the deceased were politically involved, you on the ANC's side and he, the deceased, on the IFP's side and that the act of killing was a politically motivated act? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL Thank you. You had in the original trial been granted bail and you had failed to attend the trial up to its completion, at some stage you stopped going to this Court, remember? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I do. MR DEHAL Is it correct that you were subsequently charged with the crime relating to the death of Mr Lembede in a separate Court convicted of that count of murder and sentenced, and this is why you're in custody today? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL How many years were you given on sentence? MR NYAWUZA 15 years. MR DEHAL And when was that sentence handed down? MR NYAWUZA In the Supreme Court. MR DEHAL Yes, do you recall the date on which it was handed down? MR NYAWUZA On the 2nd of November. MR DEHAL Of which year? MR NYAWUZA 1995. MR DEHAL Thank you. Now what's your level of education? MR NYAWUZA I've never been to school MR DEHAL You are a businessman in this area that your son, you and the other applicants lived at, correct? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL And do you agree with your active role in the ANC as described by your son and indeed by the last applicant, Mr Ndimande? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I do. MR DEHAL Briefly you attended the various meetings in the camps, correct? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL You were active within the purvey of the ANC, you participated in their marches, in their demonstrations, in their placard carrying, in the delivery of protests and messages, etc. MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL And you received instructions from your senior to eliminate Mr Lembede and acted in the pursuance of those instructions albeit only by driving the vehicle and the persons to the shop and back. Correct? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL So to the extent that it relates to you, you confirm the evidence of the last two applicants as correct, is that correct? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL Sorry, bear with me Sir. Thank you Sir, just one aspect. Mr Nyawuza, when you were retried you know on the second trial when you came to be arrested, charged alone and convicted on this count relating to the death of Mr Lembede, you had pleaded guilty, is that correct? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. MR DEHAL And contained in the main bundle on pages 57 onwards, is a Section 112 statement of yours, page 57, 58, 59, may I show you this? Have a look at this. That's a typed statement, although not signed by you, obviously handed, sorry I see signed by you. Do you see that statement? Was that your statement at the time? In Court yes. MR NYAWUZA Yes, I did make a statement in Court. MR DEHAL Now why did you plead guilty and why did you admit to all these events as being criminal as opposed to political, contrary to what you are today telling this Committee? MR NYAWUZA I expressed a problem with the prosecutor, the investigating officer and the Judge. They informed me that I should also admit guilt because my co-accused had done the same and they had already been sentenced. It was for that reason why I admitted guilt. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying the Judge told you you should admit guilt? MR NYAWUZA It was not the Judge but the prosecutor and the interpreter who told me that there was no need for me to deny any charges because my co-accused had already admitted guilt and had been sentenced. MR DEHAL And were you represented in this trial by any lawyer? MR NYAWUZA It was an attorney who had been provided by the State, he also came to me whilst I was still in the holding cells to take a statement. He said that there was no need for me to make a statement because my co-accused had already been sentenced. MR DEHAL And when you discussed this matter with your pro deo counsel, did you get the impression that he was aware about your co-accused, the other two applicants, Ndimande and Meyiwa and that these two were convicted in a Court hearing prior to this? MR NYAWUZA Yes, he knew that. MR DEHAL And did you tell your pro deo counsel that this act was political in nature? MR NYAWUZA I was unable to tell him because at that time we used to be oppressed by attorneys and Judges of the apartheid era. I was afraid that if I revealed that my sentence would be more. CHAIRPERSON This was in November 1995? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I was sentenced in November 1995. JUDGE POTGIETER Where did this information come from that is contained in this document, explanation of plea, as the lawyers call it? MR NYAWUZA What are you referring to? JUDGE POTGIETER This document that your lawyer now spoke, Mr Dehal was speaking about, that you signed with a cross on pages 57 to 59 in the bundle of documents before us here. Where did all this information come from? MR NYAWUZA Most of what is contained here was done in Court. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, but who gave this information that is typed in this document here? MR NYAWUZA Whatever I stated then, was to protect myself against conviction. JUDGE POTGIETER No it couldn't have protected you against conviction because you're admitting guilt, you were pleading guilty. You understand? MR NYAWUZA Yes, but I was trying to protect myself. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, but I'm going to come back to the question that I am interested in really, all of this information in this document, where did it come from? Who gave this information? MR NYAWUZA I can say that I don't know what is written in the statements because they did not read them back to me and I cannot read as well. I was just prosecuted, informed that I killed Mr Lembede. JUDGE POTGIETER Wait we'll just ... That information there, didn't you give it to - are you not the source of this information, don't you know where it comes from? MR NYAWUZA I'm the person who gave them the statement, as I've already stated the reason why I stated what I stated then. JUDGE POTGIETER Yes, yes thank you. MR DEHAL Thank you Chairperson, there's nothing further then. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL CHAIRPERSON Any questions? MR PANDAY No Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Any questions? MS REDDY Yes, Mr Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS REDDY How long were you a member of the ANC organisation prior to the killing in question? MR NYAWUZA It had been for a long time. MS REDDY Can you tell us how many years? MR NYAWUZA I think from about 1989. MS REDDY What position you held in the ANC? MR NYAWUZA I was a full member of the ANC. MS REDDY Did you occupy any official positions? MR NYAWUZA No, I did not. MS REDDY Do you have a membership card? MR NYAWUZA I used to have a card that was issued to me when I joined. MS REDDY Where's your card presently? MR NYAWUZA It is at home. MS REDDY Why you didn't bring it with you today to this amnesty hearing? MR NYAWUZA I cannot contact my family because my brother is ill. MS REDDY Did you ask anyone who knew of your political affiliation to come here today and corroborate your evidence? MR NYAWUZA I did not call anyone because I had requested an inmate to send word to the area, but I was informed that many people had fled the area so most of the people were not there because I was looking for a certain Mr Mtemba. I myself had been enforced to leave Nzamane to ...(indistinct) MS REDDY ; Who was the leader of the ANC in 1991? CHAIRPERSON Where, which area? MS REDDY The one - the area in question today where the applicant actually resides. MR NYAWUZA It was Mr Mthambo and he worked together with people like Mr Mbambo. MS REDDY Did you know Mr Lembede prior to the killing? MR NYAWUZA No. MS REDDY Who gave you instructions to actually kill the deceased in the matter? MR NYAWUZA Mr Mkhize, Mbambo, Ndimande and Mthambo arrived at my home and Mr Mthambo informed me that I should take these people to Ngonyameni to eliminate a certain person who was arming the IFP. Indeed they did arrive at my home on a Friday after ...(indistinct) and we left. That was after the arrival of Mr Mkhize, Mbambo and Mr Mahlane. When they arrived I and Emanuel were at home and they informed us that we should leave and we would collect Mr Meyiwa along the road. We left and collected Meyiwa along the road and proceeded. MS REDDY Do you know why your companions actually chose a Friday? MR NYAWUZA As far as I could tell, the person who was going to show us the place, was employed and he came from work quite late. I think that was the reason why Mr Mthambo decided on a Friday. MS REDDY And do you know why they chose the shop to actually attack the deceased? MR NYAWUZA I did not know where the shop was. MS REDDY Did you know why they chose the shop? MR NYAWUZA Mbambo said we should not go attack him at his home because that is where the weapons were stored, so we might encounter problems if we go there. It was better to confront him at the shop where he was working. MS REDDY Mr Nyawuza, I full appreciate the fact that you were not present at the time when Ndimande and two others were tried, but I draw your attention to page 69 in the judgment of Justice Didcott and I quote "That Elijah Nyawuza was the ring leader of the entire gang." Can you just respond to that? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I can. The Judge may have said so because I am the person who transported them there and there was no one who could have taken them there except for myself. MS REDDY Just one short interruption. Members of the Committee, my learned colleague sitting next to me, Thabile, actually needs a short adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR DEHAL Thank you Chair, I think he's still being cross-examined. ELIJAH NYAWUZA (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS REDDY (cont.) Mr Nyawuza, I just need a little bit of clarification of one aspect. Why did you initially withdraw your application for amnesty? MR NYAWUZA We disagreed with the person who was with another ... (indistinct) investigator. He said he knew about this offence and there was nothing that they could tell me with regards to my rights. ADV SANDI Sorry, let's get this more cleared up. Did you in fact withdraw your application before? MR NYAWUZA Yes. When the lady asked me what do I say about what he is saying, I said: "I'm withdrawing" and I explained to her that I have served my sentence and I'm continuing to serve my sentence and that is what she wrote down. That was the only thing I said to her, but I do not know about all that is written in the statement. MS REDDY Mr Nyawuza, I need your assistance. Did Joshua Cele influence you to withdraw your application and if your answer is yes, in what way? MR NYAWUZA As I have already stated, when they arrived, Sheila said: "Please explain to him his rights and what we are here for", after she had introduced themselves. However, Mr Cele said he could not explain anything to me because these people just went out to kill an innocent person. At that time, he said, he was based at Isipingo, that is why I decided not to continue co-operating with them and just decided to withdraw. CHAIRPERSON Did he tell you he'd been a policeman? MR NYAWUZA Yes. He said he had been based at Isipingo at the time. CHAIRPERSON As a policeman? MR NYAWUZA That's correct. CHAIRPERSON And that this was not a political matter? MR NYAWUZA Yes, he said so. MR DEHAL Sorry, Chair, could I just interject. For reasons that we discussed in chambers, could my assistant be excused? CHAIRPERSON Certainly. MR DEHAL Thank you. I'm indebted to you. CHAIRPERSON On the condition that you come back tomorrow. MR DEHAL Indeed. CHAIRPERSON Any further questions? MS REDDY In Mr Cele's affidavit, he states that - just one second, and I quote "I did not cause him to make any withdrawal. I had no interest whatsoever, whether he goes on with his application or not and that is not for me to decide upon." It seems that according to Mr Cele, he gave us a statement under oath that he didn't cause you to actually withdraw your application, so can you just give us any more information to elaborate or to support what you have just related to us just now? MR NYAWUZA It puzzles me that he should say so because when we were here earlier on, when we went to eat somewhere around the offices, he repeated the statement and they had an altercation with Meyiwa, he said the same thing that there is nothing that he can discuss or say to us because we had killed an innocent person who had done nothing and he knows that person and at that time he was based at the Isipingo Police Station. CHAIRPERSON When did this happen? MR NYAWUZA When we came here earlier on for our amnesty applications and were told to return at a later date. There was somebody who was a prosecutor, a short ...(indistinct) guy, although evidence ...(indistinct) at that time was a gentleman. He mentioned this when we were in the offices and it was obvious that he was upset and annoyed about it. He did not even want to speak to us, we ended up speaking with Sheila. MS REDDY Mr Nyawuza, I put it to you that the reason you withdrew, the possible reason and the most probable reason that you withdrew your application for amnesty, because here you were confronted with somebody who knew about the offence in question and plus you felt that the basis of your application would be unsuccessful. How would you respond to what I just put to you? MR NYAWUZA That is not true. Had that been the case, I would not have requested to reopen my case because after that I wrote to the Cape Town office, stating the reasons why I had withdrawn my application. He showed it to me that whatever he was going to do, it was going to be against my interest, that is the attitude that he displayed. I realised then that he was not objective. It seemed that he had interests somewhere because he said he knows this person, that is why I felt that I could not make statements to him that he would perhaps change, because even the statement that is before the Committee is a long one whereas the only thing I told them was that I was withdrawing because I have served part of my sentence. Those were the only words I said to them. It puzzles me to see a statement that is so long. It shows that had I made a statement to him, he would have edited or changed the statement. MS REDDY I actually appreciate what you have said. Did you report the misconduct on the part of Mr Cele after he interviewed you? MR NYAWUZA I informed the policeman who had taken me there to the TRC offices when he inquired on why I was leaving so quickly, I told him that I could sense that Mr Cele had an interest in the matter, he seemed to be sympathetic to the family of Mr Lembede that is why I left so suddenly. The policeman said I was wrong to withdraw the application, I should have requested somebody else from the TRC to handle the case. That is why when I went into prison, I wrote a letter requesting the TRC to reinstate my application. MS REDDY No further questions thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS REDDY MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Mr Nyawuza, did your lawyer tell you what is on the statement that Sheila signed as a statement that was written by you, or commissioned, ja commissioned? MR NYAWUZA Yes, he did. MS THABETHE So is it your evidence today that you never informed Sheila that you were asked by your neighbour Mahlane Mbambo to transport him and Meyiwa, Ndimande and Mkhize to Ngonyameni Reserve? MR NYAWUZA I told her the Mkhize, Mbambo and Mthambo and Ndimande came to my home to pick me up. When they arrived at home, I was with my son. I took the car keys. MS THABETHE Just hang on, I want to lead you on this because you see I want to get exactly what you said to Sheila and what you didn't say to her, so my question right now is this one: Didn't you say to Sheila that you were asked by Mahlane Mbambo to transport him and his neighbours, Meyiwa, Ndimande, Mkhize to Ngonyameni Reserve, didn't you say that to Sheila? Just on that point. MR NYAWUZA I did say so. MS THABETHE Didn't you say to her that you decided to take your son, ...(indistinct) Nyawuza to accompany you with these people? MR NYAWUZA Yes, it was like that but I didn't know at the time that he had already been elected in the meeting to go. The reason that I didn't ...(intervention) MS THABETHE Sorry Mr Nyawuza, I just wanted to know did you tell Sheila that you asked your son to accompany you? I'll come to the reasons why you asked him. MR DEHAL No, I think it's fair for him to say why he said it right here now. MS THABETHE But that's not what I've asked. MR DEHAL Well indeed ...(intervention) MS THABETHE ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously) he said it. I'm coming to that. MR DEHAL May I just finish? It's my argument that it's his right to say it fully and properly, he should not be intimidated. CHAIRPERSON He's not being intimidated. He said he said it. We're just trying to get what's in this document. You can then ask him: "Why did you say it?" MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON You've told us, and do I understand you correctly that you did tell this woman, that you then decided to take your son Pops to accompany you with these people? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON Now why did you tell her that? Was it the truth? MR NYAWUZA Yes, it was true and I did tell her so. MS THABETHE Did you also tell her that at that time you were staying in Nzamane Reserve? MR NYAWUZA Yes. MS THABETHE Did you also tell her that you did not know the place called Ngonyameni? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I did. MS THABETHE Did you also tell Sheila that you charged them R60 for taking them and that you only learned then that the motive for the trip was to go to kill Mr Lembede because he was an IFP who was aiding people to kill ANC? MR NYAWUZA No, I didn't say anything about money. I used to take them everywhere whenever they came and requested me to take them, because this is what I used to do as a member or supporter of the organisation if they were on any organisational mission, I will help them. CHAIRPERSON Didn't you need money for petrol? MR NYAWUZA No. My job was to sell goods, this is how I used to help the organisation. Even if, whenever we were supposed to buy weapons or firearms, I used to contribute money. In fact my contribution was higher than other people's contributions. MS THABETHE So I would be correct if I say it's not true that you told her that you charged them R60 for the petrol for taking them. He also says that in paragraph 5. I'm just covering the whole point. MR NYAWUZA No. MS THABETHE Okay. Did you tell her that you only learned that the motive for the trip was to go and kill Mr Lembede because he was IFP and he was helping people in killing the ANC? Did you also tell her that? MR DEHAL Sorry, only then learned, that means at the time when ...(intervention) MS THABETHE Please ... MR DEHAL The word then was missing in your statement, I'm just correcting you. MS THABETHE I did actually say then. CHAIRPERSON I don't think I heard it. MR DEHAL I didn't hear it. CHAIRPERSON I think you should put the next sentence too. MS THABETHE I actually said: "Did you then ..." - sorry, "did you tell Sheila that ..." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think you should ask him, did you tell her that you only learned of the motive after you got the money and when you were on the trip, that this was to kill Mr Lembede because he was IFP and aiding IFP people and this was discussed in the vehicle? MR NYAWUZA I only found out at home. Sheila questioned me as to whether I used to charge them if I had transported them and I told her that sometimes they used to give me money for petrol and she questioned me to estimate how much petrol I've used to go to the place and I estimated that it could have been R60, not that I had charged them R60. She questioned me how much petrol had I used going there. CHAIRPERSON We're not talking about petrol anymore, what I'm asking you now is, did you tell her that it was only after you had decided to go with them that you learned that the motive for the trip was to go and kill Mr Lembede because he was IFP and was aiding the IFP people in killing the ANC? Did you tell her that? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I did say so. CHAIRPERSON And did you tell her that this was discussed in the vehicle while you were on your way to Ngonyameni? MR NYAWUZA I did say in the car it was discussed. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MS THABETHE Thanks. So, if I hear you correctly, what you are saying Mr Nyawuza is that you first discovered it at home and then you also discussed it on your way to Ngonyameni, is that correct? MR NYAWUZA At home I was just told that I should take the group to Ngonyameni because they were going to do something there and then on our way, it was discussed as to who is going to take what position because in the discussion I did hear that some people were going to be outside and some were going to enter the shop, because they also thought that there might be other people inside the shop. MS THABETHE Did you also tell her that you did not take part in the planning to kill Lembede as you did not know him? MR NYAWUZA Yes, it is true, I wasn't present in that meeting where it was planned. MS THABETHE Did you know Mr Lembede? MR NYAWUZA No. MS THABETHE Did you also tell her that you did not seek to achieve any political objective in this involvement? MR NYAWUZA She questioned me as to whether it was my intention to go and kill Mr Lembede and then I answered back and told her that I didn't know Mr Lembede but since it was an organisational mission, I didn't have anything to do with it. MS THABETHE Did you also tell her that the whereabouts of Mahlane Mbambo and Mkhize Joseph are unknown to you, at that stage? Did you tell her that you did not know where Mahlane Mbambo and Mkhize Joseph are? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I did. MS THABETHE Okay. Did you also tell her that you had heard Mkhize died later? MR NYAWUZA Yes. MS THABETHE Okay. Did you also tell her that they were both employed by Toyota in Prospectum and that they had become State witnesses, or they became State witnesses? MR NYAWUZA Only one person was employed by Toyota. I didn't know Mkhize's employment. I knew Mbambo was employed by Toyota. MS THABETHE Did you also tell her that Meyiwa is in Medium B Westville Prison? MR NYAWUZA Yes. MS THABETHE Ndimande and Bobs Nyawuza are in Medium Prison, did you also tell her that? MR NYAWUZA Medium C. MS THABETHE It says Maximum prison here. Medium C. MR NYAWUZA Yes. MS THABETHE Okay. Did Sheila - okay, there's something. Did you also tell her that you now strongly believe that this activity was not political because you had learned later that the victim was not involved in any political organisation? Did you tell her that? MR NYAWUZA No, I didn't. MS THABETHE Did you tell her that you were an ANC member? MR NYAWUZA Yes. MS THABETHE You've stated the reasons why you decided to withdraw your application, so I won't ask you anything about that. Now did Sheila ask you to sign a statement after that? MR NYAWUZA Yes. MS THABETHE And did you sign it, did you put a cross? MR NYAWUZA Yes. MS THABETHE Before she signed the statement, did she read it to you what she had written? MR NYAWUZA I wouldn't be able to remember whether she read it to me. So many things are happening in prison, I don't remember whether she read it or not. ADV SANDI But you did put the cross on the statement, didn't you? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I did. ADV SANDI Why did you do that? MR NYAWUZA Because I can't write. ADV SANDI If - just explain that. You say you put your cross on that statement and the reason for that was because you cannot write? MR NYAWUZA Yes. ADV SANDI If you were able to write, do you mean to say that you would have signed this statement and not put a cross mark on it? MR NYAWUZA Yes. ADV SANDI Did you agree with the statement? MR NYAWUZA Yes. MR PANDAY Sorry, Mr Chairman, just to clarify. I think the question that was put to Mr Nyawuza was that did Sheila read the statement back to you and if my memory serves me right it's that his answer was that there were so many things going on in prison, he ...(intervention) MS THABETHE He says he can't remember. MR PANDAY He can't remember. I think you question directed to him is that it would appear that he put the cross after the statement was read to him. Just to clarify the position. MS THABETHE He says he can't remember. Mr Nyawuza, I just want to find out something. Would I be correct in saying that everything that you told Sheila is true? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I would say so. Like I've explained, I've been in prison for a long time, therefore my memory is impaired somehow because sometimes I easily forget things that I've said, but I do remember that I gave Sheila my statement and she wrote it down. MS THABETHE What I ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Do you now remember making this statement to Sheila and she wrote it down... INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. CHAIRPERSON Do you now remember that you made this statement to Sheila and she wrote it down? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I do remember. CHAIRPERSON And do you remember if you were asked to make your mark after she had read it back to you? MR NYAWUZA I do remember her telling me to sign the statement, but I don't remember whether she read the statement, but if that's a usual procedure for one to read the statement, she probably had read the statement for me before I could sign it. CHAIRPERSON Any more? MR DEHAL Sorry Chairperson, I'm just a little concerned that Sheila might be traversing the entire length and breadth of this country to travel here. It would be unnecessary in view of his last admissions and I don't think there's any point in her coming in here. CHAIRPERSON Well, I mentioned that to my colleague. It struck me that ...(indistinct) MS THABETHE The mike is not on. CHAIRPERSON What appeared to be a very serious matter has become trivial. MR DEHAL Indeed. CHAIRPERSON Of no importance. MR DEHAL Correct. I think she should be timeously advised not to traverse this length. MS THABETHE What about the intimidation allegations that have been made against Sikumbuso Cele because they are coming back together? Shouldn't he be given an opportunity to set the record straight. MR DEHAL I think the issue about Cele still remains but not at all about Sheila. CHAIRPERSON I gather they are travelling together. MR DEHAL I think it's unnecessary for Sheila to be present here, perhaps she does not have to go through that arduous journey and just Cele himself. CHAIRPERSON Well we can talk ... MS THABETHE Just last question Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON If we can just finish the evidence. MS THABETHE Mr Nyawuza, would I be correct then to say your role in the killing of Lembede was that you drove them back and you never went inside the shop. Would I be correct to say that? CHAIRPERSON Isn't that the version, all the versions we've heard? MS THABETHE I just want him to confirm. MR NYAWUZA It is so. MS THABETHE Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR DEHAL None, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DEHAL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PANDAY Mr Chairman, I've just got one point to clarify. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY Mr Nyawuza, as you were giving or relating the story to Sheila, did she write as you spoke, can you remember that? MR NYAWUZA As I was relating, she would listen and then start writing and she will question again and I will answer and she will listen and then write again. MR PANDAY And when you got to the end of talking, did you then put your X on the statement? MR NYAWUZA Yes. MR PANDAY Thank you. MR NYAWUZA She did question me if that was all and I said: "Yes" and she requested me to put a cross or to sign. MR PANDAY Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY CHAIRPERSON Right. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON I gather that certain of us have appointments. We wish to make arrangements for tomorrow. What time tomorrow? 9 o'clock? 9 o'clock. MR DEHAL That suits me fine. I think Ms Reddy wants to ...(indistinct) a reservation. MS REDDY May I just interject? I didn't actually foresee that this matter was going to go on tomorrow because I did advise the TRC offices that I was very much engaged this whole week but I was actually indulging the TRC today and what I'm going to do is I'm going indulge the TRC as priority again tomorrow but if I run like 15 minutes late, I just ask your indulgence once more. CHAIRPERSON 15 minutes maximum. MR DEHAL Sorry Chair, can I just ask, if there be difficulties on my side and I don't envisage any, could I have Miss Mohammed sit in? She's familiar with the matter and has been assisting. CHAIRPERSON Ja. MR DEHAL Thank you. CHAIRPERSON 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS