amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-06-08 PRETORIA 22 NICHOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN AM4358/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54239&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200608pa.htm CHAIRPERSON Morning everybody. Who's next? MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. Cornelius on behalf of Vermeulen, I intend to call him, with your permission. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius, does your client speak Afrikaans? MR CORNELIUS He's Afrikaans-speaking, Mr Chair. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. NICHOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Vermeulen, you are an applicant and in terms of Section 18 of Act 34/95, you have prepared a proper application and submitted it as such. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS You were in service of the South African Police, as defined in Section 20(2)(b) and 20(2)(f) of this Act, is that correct? I'm terribly sorry, Judge, it's on page 124 of bundle 1, that is the merits part, the initial part and the political motivation is on page 109, Judge. You submitted the application punctually and you gave your support to the Investigative team of the TRC, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS Is it also correct that you were deployed to the section which was known as C1, under the command of Col Eugene de Kock? MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS During the incidents of this incident of Lesotho, what was your rank? MR VERMEULEN I was a Warrant Officer. MR CORNELIUS And it is also common knowledge before the Committee, as per previous evidence, that at all times you executed the orders given by Eugene de Kock and acted on a need-to-know basis. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS And you confirm that the political objectives of that time are as they are set out in your current application. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS I take you back to the 19th of December 1985, did you receive orders from Eugene de Kock to participate in this operation? MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS And it is common cause that you travelled down to Ladybrand, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS Could you tell the Tribunal briefly what your participation was from the moment that you travelled down to the river. MR VERMEULEN At the river, Mr Coetser and I placed all the equipment in the rubber dinghies. MR CORNELIUS What equipment was this? MR VERMEULEN It was our weapons. MR CORNELIUS And what did you do with the weapons? MR VERMEULEN They were packed into the dinghies and taken across the river, on the other side the people received the weapons and we moved out to the house ...(intervention) MR CORNELIUS Just a moment. So you moved over the river to the target house. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS In your application you state that you crossed the border at the border post with vehicles and false passports, did you use vehicles to cross the border? MR VERMEULEN No. MR CORNELIUS Therefore you request an amendment of your application. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS I understand that in consultation with me you mentioned that you moved into Lesotho every two to three months. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Did you move through the border post every time? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS Did you use false passports on these occasions? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS Did you confuse the crossing at the border post with the crossing at the river? MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR BERGER Chairperson, with respect, if my learned friend could not lead the witness so much, there's just yes and no to all the questions that my learned friend is putting at the moment. MR CORNELIUS I will do so. The inflatable boats, when you crossed the river what happened? MR VERMEULEN One sank ...(intervention) INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. MR VERMEULEN One of the dinghies sank and took water in, we had to transfer the equipment to the other boat. MR CORNELIUS Where did you go after you had crossed the river? MR VERMEULEN Once we had crossed the river we gathered together where the people took their equipment and we moved up towards the house. MR CORNELIUS At what time of the night was this? MR VERMEULEN It is difficult to say but I estimate that it must have been approximately 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock at night, if I recall correctly. MR CORNELIUS What were your orders? MR VERMEULEN My order was to take up position at the side of the house and to ensure that people did not exit the house and also to see that any of the Lesotho Defence Force members did not come to the house. MR CORNELIUS I see. And did you have any orders to shoot any of the targets? MR VERMEULEN If they departed from the house yes, I would have shot them. MR CORNELIUS Very well. Did you then move to your position? MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS What happened then? MR VERMEULEN I took up my position. I heard shots in the house. Nothing exited from the windows or the entrances where I was positioned. At a certain stage there was a man who peered over from the neighbouring house, I told him to go away. He remained there. I tried to shoot him but the weapon was still on safety and when I set it to fire, the person was gone. I didn't see him again. MR CORNELIUS Very well. What happened then? MR VERMEULEN After the shooting we all returned to the river, where I had a television. I don't know where I obtained this, but I carried a television and a case across the river. MR CORNELIUS Whose television was this? MR VERMEULEN Mr McCaskill's. MR CORNELIUS Did you receive an order to take this TV, or what was the objective? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Who gave you the order? MR VERMEULEN Col de Kock. MR CORNELIUS What happened to the vehicles that you used? MR VERMEULEN The vehicles were set alight on the bank of the river. We walked and swam through to the other side. MR CORNELIUS What did you do then? MR VERMEULEN There was a vehicle waiting for us. All of us climbed into the vehicle and we returned to Ladybrand. MR CORNELIUS And after that you returned to Vlakplaas? MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS With the exception of your regular salary, did you receive any bonus or extra financial remuneration for your participation? MR VERMEULEN No. MR CORNELIUS Did you receive any honour or award? MR VERMEULEN Only the medal. MR VERMEULEN Which medal? MR VERMEULEN I think it was the Silver Cross for Bravery. MR CORNELIUS Who presented this to you? MR VERMEULEN I'm not certain, but I think it was Gen Basie Smit. MR CORNELIUS Was this indicative or not that the operation had been approved? MR VERMEULEN I assumed as such. MR CORNELIUS Did you have any feelings of personal hatred or vengeance towards the victims? MR VERMEULEN No. MR CORNELIUS And in as far as you can remember, this is a long time ago, you have given a full disclosure of the relevant facts. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS You request that this Amnesty Committee would grant you amnesty for the conspiracy and murder of a number of persons who were situated in the target house. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS You also request amnesty for the illegal crossing of State borders and intentional damage to property. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS And by nature of the matter, all other delicts which may emanate on a civil basis from these proceedings. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius, are we empowered to decide on whether your client is guilty of malicious injury to property in Lesotho? MR CORNELIUS Strictly not, I would say Mr Chair, I think that is covered by ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON It's different from a plan to murder and carrying out the plan to murder in South Africa and carrying it out elsewhere. MR CORNELIUS You are quite correct, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON The carrying of all those - the possession of all those weapons, I would assume it could be argued that if they were issued by the South African Police or whatever, but they were really being carried for illegal purposes, would the possession of those firearms be illegal? MR CORNELIUS In terms of the Arms and Ammunition Act, there are so many offences that we would have committed, I think to cover that we would say all offences that arise out of the Arms and Ammunitions Act, I think that would cover most of the incidents. The transportation thereof, the ammunition ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) it's a fine line and I'm asking for your assistance here. They were policemen and these firearms were in fact issued by the authorities of the Police, but they were issued for an illegal purpose, does that make the possession of those firearms illegal? MR CORNELIUS I think the possession would be legal, according to my interpretation. I think the possession would be legal, they were properly issued. The fact that it was used for illegal purposes ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR CORNELIUS For various purposes, Mr Chair, from illegal to legal purposes. CHAIRPERSON Well what was legal about anything that they did ...(indistinct) MR CORNELIUS You see Mr Chair, I think what confuses the issue is that a lot of these weapons were brought back from Ovamboland, so we'll have to typify each weapon and find out if it was weapons which were ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I'm talking generally, I'm talking about a general picture. They embarked on an illegal escapade, in order to succeed in that escapade they were issued with firearms for the purpose of carrying out illegal activities. That's the way I read it. MR CORNELIUS It's a very technical line, Mr Chair, I would say if you view it in that line we would then ask for the illegal possession of firearms then as well, to be safe. There's a further issue, the passports, the false passports, I mean that is forging and uttering of passports and also carrying a false passport, so we can really go into detail as far as offences are concerned. CHAIRPERSON But I'm really in your hands for what your client is applying for, I mean, I'm just asking about the prospects of this. MR CORNELIUS Yes, I would rather play it safe and ask for amnesty for the illegal possession of firearms because we don't have the specific identity of the firearms, Mr Chair. And for the fact that it was used for unlawful purposes. ADV BOSMAN And what about the travel documents and the crossing of the border, are you asking for amnesty? MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Advocate Bosman, I've asked for the illegal crossing of the border, but I would obviously also ask for the carrying of a false passport, forgery and uttering ... MACHINE SWITCHED OFF ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Where did they get these illegal passports? MR CORNELIUS According to my mandate it was issued at Police Headquarters, it was a passport with the photograph of my client on, with false names and ID numbers, obviously. It was standard, it was issued ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I don't know how standard it was, if it was illegal, but surely it must have been issued with the connivance of the Department of Internal Affairs or Homelands. MR CORNELIUS My instructions are yes. CHAIRPERSON Well maybe you can do us a favour, can you ask your client does he know whether that option's still open and operative. MR CORNELIUS He has no knowledge, he doesn't know, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Hattingh. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Vermeulen, upon various other occasions before Committees you have given evidence and I note that in your application on page 126, you make mention of the fact that you suffer from the so-called post-traumatic stress disorder, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH And that the condition that you suffer from, has affected your memory. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR HATTINGH I also note that with your application as in the past with other applications, there is also a report from a psychologist by the name of Russel Matthews, which has been attached to your application, in which he states on page 130 "Mr N J Vermeulen suffers from a serious chronic post-traumatic stress disorder, which renders him one hundred percent unsuitable to be used in the labour market in any way." Is that correct, that you were diagnosed as such? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR HATTINGH Is it also correct as he states on page 129 "Since 1992 the patient has been undergoing psychiatric treatment. During May 1997, he was once again psychiatrically evaluated by Prof J H Robertse, whose report is attached and marked Annexure A." This is unfortunately not available with these documents, but was it also that psychiatrist's opinion that you suffer from this disorder? MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Mr Vermeulen, you testified today that you crossed the border and that you then moved towards the house, did you go directly to the house from the border or did you first go elsewhere? MR VERMEULEN We went directly from the river to the house. MR HATTINGH Did you travel in two vehicles? MR VERMEULEN It is difficult for me to recall that portion, but as far as I can recall we travelled for some distance in vehicles, at which point we disembarked and then travelled further afoot. MR HATTINGH But from the border onwards did you travel in vehicles? MR VERMEULEN From Ladybrand to the border? MR HATTINGH No, from the point where you crossed the border to the house. When you crossed the river and landed on the other side, did you travel to the house with vehicles or did you travel by foot? MR VERMEULEN If I recall correctly we climbed into vehicles at that point, drove some distance towards the house, at which point we disembarked and travelled further afoot to the house. MR HATTINGH Is your recollection about this somewhat unclear? MR VERMEULEN I'm not entirely clear, that is what I can recall. MR HATTINGH And can you recall whether or not you stopped in the near vicinity of the post office in Maseru? MR VERMEULEN No. MR HATTINGH Would you dispute this? MR VERMEULEN I would not dispute it. MR HATTINGH Did you enter the house where the attack was launched after the attack? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And can you recall who of you were involved in the attack on the house where you stood guard? MR VERMEULEN What I can recall is that Col de Kock, Willie Nortje and myself were there. MR HATTINGH Were any other members with you on the operation as far as you can recall? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR HATTINGH What happened to the other members when you took up position there at the house ? MR VERMEULEN At that stage I didn't know what had happened to the rest, because all I knew is that Steve Bosch was the driver of one of the vehicles. MR HATTINGH Therefore you didn't hear the order which was given to Messrs Adamson and Coetser, to go to another house? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Did you know that some of the members, or at least one of the members that you aimed to kill at the house was no longer at the house, that he had departed from that place? MR VERMEULEN No. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson, Visser on record. Mr Vermeulen, the question regarding the award of the medals, you stated that you think that it was Basie Smit and you also refer to this in terms of Brig Schoon, if I were to put it to you that Brig Schoon did not have any direct share in the awarding of these medals and was also not present during such a ceremony, would you dispute it? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson, I would not. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone. MR VISSER ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER ; The speaker's microphone is still not on. MR VISSER I will begin again. Regarding Basie Smit, he was a Colonel at that stage and the evidence of Gen van der Merwe here, was that he cannot recall it all that well but he thinks that it could have been him who awarded the medals, do you have any problem with that? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Thank you, Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Vermeulen, regarding the final aspect it is my instruction from Mr Nortje that it was indeed Gen van der Merwe who awarded the medals and not Gen Basie Smit. That is Mr Nortje's recollection. MR VERMEULEN I do not have a problem with that, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Then just one other aspect, can you recall any aspect, or may I put it as follows, were you present at any stage when members of Special Forces were encountered at the Thaba'Nchu Sun? MR VERMEULEN I am not certain, Chairperson, there were people because we were there one evening, but I cannot recall specifically whether or not we encountered some of those people there. MR LAMEY Very well. I have nothing further, thank you Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT Thank you, Mr Chairman, Joubert on behalf of McCaskill. Mr Vermeulen, apart from the fact that you were aware that the TV belonged to Mr McCaskill, are you aware of any other involvement or actions by Mr McCaskill? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson, I did not deal with him until after the time. MR JOUBERT And you also mentioned a case that you took across the river, you cannot say to whom this case belonged? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Thank you, Chair, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Vermeulen, when were you born? MR VERMEULEN I beg your pardon, Sir? MR BERGER When were you born? MR VERMEULEN 1946. MR BERGER Where? MR VERMEULEN Port Elizabeth. MR BERGER Where did you go to school? MR VERMEULEN In Pretoria. MR BERGER High School? MR VERMEULEN Also Pretoria, Mr Chair. MR BERGER And after that, what did you do? MR VERMEULEN I joined the Police Force, Mr Chair. MR BERGER When was that? MR VERMEULEN 1965, Mr Chair. MR BERGER Where were you based? MR VERMEULEN Pretoria Headquarters, Mr Chair. MR BERGER All the time? MR VERMEULEN Most of the time ja, till 1971, when I went to Groblersdal for a - the Coin training facility there. I stayed there till 1975, I think. Then I joined the Special Task Force and in '85 I went over to C-Section. MR BERGER So from 1975 to 1985, what were you doing? MR VERMEULEN I was based at - just say again, sorry. MR BERGER If you want to speak in Afrikaans, it's fine. MR VERMEULEN Ja, I just didn't get the dates properly. MR BERGER You said from 1975 to 1985 you were where? MR VERMEULEN The Special Task Force. MR BERGER Doing what? MR VERMEULEN I was an operative there and later I became an Instructor. MR BERGER And where were you based? MR VERMEULEN In Pretoria. MR BERGER And then when did you join C-Section? MR VERMEULEN In 1985. MR BERGER When? MR VERMEULEN October. MR BERGER Do you remember the day? MR VERMEULEN No, Sir. MR BERGER And then you went to Vlakplaas. MR VERMEULEN Yes, Sir. MR BERGER Until when? MR VERMEULEN I think in 1992 or 1993 I went off medically unfit, Mr Chair. MR BERGER So from 1985 until 1992, you participated fully as a member of Vlakplaas. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER You had no difficulty carrying out orders, you had no difficulty remembering your orders? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chair. MR BERGER You've got no difficulty remembering the neighbour who put his head out and nearly had it shot off by you because you were standing guard outside the house? MR VERMEULEN No, I've got no problem with that. MR BERGER You have no difficulty remembering that you helped Mr McCaskill carry a TV set across the river? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER But you've forgotten everything else. MR VERMEULEN I won't say I've forgotten everything else, but the rest of it was not important to me. I didn't partake in most of the other activities, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER You see your psychologist doesn't say anything about your having lost your memory. MR VERMEULEN That's not my problem, you can ask him, Sir. MR BERGER Well it's just your say-so that you lost your memory, or you have difficulty with your memory. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Has any doctor, psychologist, psychiatrist, medical doctor, made a diagnosis that you have a problem with your memory? MR VERMEULEN As far as I know Mr Matthews made that diagnosis. MR BERGER Well as I read his report he doesn't say that anywhere. MR VERMEULEN Mr Chair, I'm not a psychiatrist, I think he will be better able to answer that question. MR BERGER Well I put it to you that if he had made such a diagnosis, it would be in his report. MR VERMEULEN That can be, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON What diagnosis did he make, Mr Berger? As I read this report, it was a clinical assessment to establish whether he's fit for work on the labour market, in which he says "Hundred percent unfit." I'm not going to comment on that, but wasn't the intention of this report to establish his ability to find work? I'm suggesting, it looks like it. MR BERGER Chairperson, probably the intention of the report was whether or not Mr Vermeulen was entitled to be placed on pension. CHAIRPERSON I have my suspicions, but the nature of the report indicates that it was an assessment for whatever reason, to establish whether he was capable of being employed in the open labour market. ...(indistinct - no microphone) Sorry. ... rather than giving a clinical assessment on his ability to remember or whatever other psychiatric ailment he may have laboured under. MR BERGER Chairperson, with respect, if one looks at the report, page 128, it's a clinical psychological report, it doesn't say what the purpose of the report is, it ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Precisely. I'm reading from the contents of it. I did preface my comments to you and said I'm not going to try and comment on the purpose for which this report was made and what I think of the report itself, it's just from the contents one gets the irresistible feeling that it was designed to indicate his capabilities of finding a job on the open labour market. MR BERGER Indeed, Chairperson, and 4.1 says that Mr Vermeulen suffers serious - this is at page 130, chronic post-traumatic stress, which makes him one hundred percent unable to find work in the market. Now that doesn't mean and it doesn't say that he has problems with his memory, it may be that every time someone ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I know that, Mr Berger, I'm just pointing out that by the nature of the report one doesn't expect that kind of comment, that he's lost his memory or whatever. The lack of detail of this report does impact on the quality of the report, I concede, but to put it to the witness that the doctor didn't put it into his report and therefore we must question his allegation that he's lost his memory, I'm not saying you can't question that, but to base it on what the doctor has said or omitted to say, is another matter. MR CORNELIUS Let me be of assistance, Mr Chair, it will assist Mr Berger as well, the report was drawn for a claim against the Compensation Commission, to assess his ability in the open labour market, that was the report. ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON There are a lot of policemen who even could work did that at some time during the 1990s, some of them are running their own businesses. MR BERGER Chairperson, the reason I point out that there's no finding in the report of a loss of memory, is that at page 122, Mr Vermeulen says the following, he says - this is the second paragraph, in the middle of that paragraph. He says "Currently I suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, as it appears from reports in the possession of my psychologists, which results that my memory has been affected by it. I attach to this a copy of the report by Dr R E Matthews." My point is simply that the only evidence we have of Mr Vermeulen's loss of memory, is his say-so, nothing more. CHAIRPERSON And that you're quite entitled to question. I'm saying that the nature of the report on which - one of the aspects you question is allegation of loss of memory, it's that it's not mentioned in the report. All I'm saying is, take cognisance of the quality of the report and perhaps the reasons why the report was drafted in the first place. MR BERGER Chairperson, the point simply is that Mr Vermeulen relies on the report. CHAIRPERSON To prove his loss of memory? MR BERGER To substantiate his loss of memory, yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And he has also repeated that reliance when Mr Hattingh put it to him during his cross-examination. MR BERGER Indeed. CHAIRPERSON You say on 122, page 122? MR BERGER Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON It says "Currently I suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, as it appears from reports in possession of my psychologists." I suppose it can be read both ways. MR CORNELIUS Mr Chair, you will note if you look at page 129, paragraph 3, "Clinical Finding", there's an obvious omission of one full page, because it jumps from Clinical Finding to 4.1, so obviously the complete report is not before you. That is quite apparent. JUDGE KHAMPEPE You prepared his application, Mr Cornelius, you should be the one to give us more guidance about whether it's complete or not. MR CORNELIUS You're quite right, Judge, but I've noticed it now, it's been drawn to my attention. CHAIRPERSON Well is it complete or not? MR CORNELIUS It's not complete, paragraph 3 is omitted. CHAIRPERSON Have you got the missing section? MR CORNELIUS I will have to obtain it from the psychiatrist, from the clinical psychologist. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Annexure A appears to be not part of this report that has been referred to at 2.4 on page 129. MR CORNELIUS You're quite correct, Judge, so I'll have to obtain the report from Robertse, the full - it was fully submitted at the initial application but there's been so many photostats and at one stage a part of his whole amnesty application was lost by the TRC in Cape Town, we had to photostat the whole lot and send it down to Cape Town again. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but Mr Berger, all I'm saying is, bear in mind what the possible purpose of this report was, that the doctor, whatever his qualifications may be, omitted to say certain things, is neither here nor there. I am prepared to allow the questions that you ask on the basis you ask, but I want to point out on page 122, that second paragraph is capable of two interpretations, one of which is your interpretation. MR BERGER Well Chairperson, I accept what you say but one can't say that the doctor left out certain findings if there's a whole page of his report missing. CHAIRPERSON Well what we've got in front of us, that's why I'm saying bear that in mind. MR BERGER Mr Vermeulen, let's go on. You say that you harboured no hate or malice towards the people that you set out to kill, is that right? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chair. MR BERGER You also say at page 118 of your amnesty application, that you were indoctrinated by your political masters. Do you remember that? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Weren't you indoctrinated to hate your enemy? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER You say you were indoctrinated and ordered to consider political opponents, which had to be deterred, disrupted and eliminated in their political struggle. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER What was your attitude towards your enemy in this indoctrinated state of yours? MR VERMEULEN It was just a job that I had to do, that's all. MR BERGER What was the extent of your indoctrination? MR VERMEULEN Mostly the political side. MR BERGER Which was what? MR VERMEULEN That they didn't believe in all the indoctrinations that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well Mr Vermeulen, you say you were indoctrinated and all the advocate is asking is, how were you indoctrinated? It's not a question of it must have been political, I mean you tell us. MR VERMEULEN They gave us lectures, we received many lectures ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, the question is, how were you indoctrinated? You say that you were indoctrinated, how did this happen? Is that the question, Mr Berger? MR BERGER Thank you, Chair, yes it was. MR VERMEULEN As I understand it, Chairperson, we received many lectures regarding communism and the political parties against which we fought in the past. That is as far as I can take it. CHAIRPERSON How do you feel about communism today? MR VERMEULEN I still believe that it is wrong. Some of their ideas are right, some of them are wrong, but I am not more politically oriented that what I was before, I actually want nothing to do with it right now. MR BERGER Were you indoctrinated to regard the ANC as your enemy? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR BERGER And are you still so indoctrinated or not? MR VERMEULEN In some ways, yes Mr Chairman. MR BERGER You still regard the ANC as your enemy? MR VERMEULEN Not all of them, some of them. MR BERGER Which of them? MR VERMEULEN I don't know at the moment. CHAIRPERSON Ordinary members? MR VERMEULEN I beg your pardon, Sir? CHAIRPERSON Members of the African National Congress you regard as enemies, is that what you mean? MR VERMEULEN Yes. Persons, ja. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR VERMEULEN Ag I don't know at the moment, Mr Chairman, as I've said I'm not really interested in politics, I don't want anything to do with it, I want to put this whole mess behind me, because it is something that we have to overcome. Politically I am no longer oriented, I'm not even interested in it, I don't even listen to it. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vermeulen, I don't know where we are leading but Mr Berger asked you whether or not you still think that the ANC is the enemy and your answer was no, not all of them, but some of them are still your enemy, that was your response. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON And all that Mr Berger then asked is who are these persons or members of the ANC who you still regard as your enemy. That's all. MR VERMEULEN I cannot recall all the names, Chairperson, but there are many things which are not right. I don't know, I'm just not interested in it, I don't want to know about it. I don't know what the names of these persons are. MR BERGER Have you forgotten that as well? MR VERMEULEN No, I haven't forgotten it, but I don't want to think about it anymore, it's past, it's gone. CHAIRPERSON But Mr Vermeulen, you are here before an Amnesty Committee, where you must be able to remember because you will be examined about it. Once you leave her you can forget about it, but you cannot evade a question by saying that you don't want to think about it. And I'm saying this for your own best interests. MR VERMEULEN I understand that, Chairperson. MR BERGER You see Mr Vermeulen, you gave evidence this morning about your political motivation, you were asked questions, you confirmed what is in your amnesty application, now I' testing what's in your amnesty application, I'm testing your political motivation. You said that you acted the way you acted - correct me if I'm wrong, you acted the way you acted because you were indoctrinated, am I right? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR BERGER I asked, how were you indoctrinated? MR VERMEULEN I said we had a lot of lectures, we received lectures about the communism, the ANC and all that. There was a lot of literature that was past on to us that we had to read. MR BERGER And you were indoctrinated to believe that the ANC and the Communist Party were your enemies. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chair. MR BERGER Now if you say that you were indoctrinated, you must understand now, seeing it from a distance, that there was a process of indoctrination taking place. Is that right? MR VERMEULEN I don't understand that question. MR BERGER Well if you can allege that you were indoctrinated, it must follow that today you believe or you don't see things the way you saw things then. MR VERMEULEN Ja, that's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER But then I asked you whether you still regarded the ANC as your enemy and you said "Yes, some of them." MR VERMEULEN Persons. MR BERGER Yes. And then my question is, who do you still regard as your enemy and now you say you don't know. MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Mr Chair, because we're still operatives from the old regime. I don't think people have forgotten what happened, there might be revenges, I don't know. MR BERGER So is it that you do know but you just don't want to name names? MR VERMEULEN No, I don't know any names. CHAIRPERSON How were you able to tell us that some of them still are your enemies? If you don't know whether these people exist, you don't know who they are, how can they be your enemies then? MR VERMEULEN Chairperson, if I may put it as follows, we were operatives from the former Vlakplaas, in the new dispensation I believe that people aren't very fond of us and we are not really on a very high pedestal and I believe that there are still persons who have feelings of vengeance towards us. CHAIRPERSON I can understand that you are their enemies, but the question is, who is your enemy? MR VERMEULEN I wouldn't be able to name a specific person or organisation as such. If one looks at the right-wingers, there is the AWB and whoever, I believe that in the new dispensation there must also be such persons who would go out and see whether or not they could find any of our people and eliminate us as well. CHAIRPERSON Then I'm going to give you another opportunity to answer the question. I can understand your thought process, we just want to know which persons you would regard as your enemies, who do you view as the enemy? MR VERMEULEN It is difficult for me to explain, Chairperson. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Vermeulen, maybe to assist you, if you don't remember or you can't say who amongst the ANC members are your enemies today, are you in a position to say who amongst those members were previously your enemies are no longer your enemies within the ANC? MR VERMEULEN Mr Chairman, in the previous time it was the MKs, they would have fought us, and I still think there is still MKs today that would like sought things out with us, but I can't name a specific person or a specific cell or whatever, but I do think there will be some of that people that will still be out looking for us. I'm quite sure about that. ADV BOSMAN Mr Vermeulen, may I put it to you as follows. You think that there are persons who want to sort things out with you. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. ADV BOSMAN Now the question is, are there any persons with whom you need to sort things out still? MR VERMEULEN No, I don't have a problem with anyone, I just want to be alone and at peace at this stage. That is all that I want. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Why did you then in your response to Mr Berger's question, state that you still regarded some of the ANC members as your enemy? MR VERMEULEN Because, Mr Chairman, they must still have grudges from the old time. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So you personally don't regard any person within the ANC, as your enemy? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Okay Mr Vermeulen, let's move on. You say at the bottom of page 116 of your amnesty application that your further motives and objectives were to act as an anti-terrorism unit, to track all infiltrating units of the exiled political parties, to carry out arrests where possible and in general to act as a counter-terrorism unit, to exercise all possible measures to prohibit the total onslaught of the members of the exiled parties in the political struggle against the former State. Do you confirm that? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER And then you say, although this is written in the third person, it's on your behalf, you say that your objectives were furthermore to eliminate and to bring the perpetrators to justice. Do you confirm that? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER In that order? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR BERGER Do you understand what I've just asked you? MR VERMEULEN In the order it can be - you can change the other ones around yourself, it doesn't matter. MR BERGER You mean to bring the perpetrators to justice and then to eliminate them? MR VERMEULEN Ja. MR BERGER What were - let's go to the specific event, when were you called down to Ladybrand? MR VERMEULEN I don't remember, Mr Chairman. We worked there for a long time, so I can't remember now on what specific date. I think it might be the 19th. MR BERGER No, Mr Vermeulen, you can't just say you don't remember because you told the Committee a little while ago that you joined C-Section in 1985. MR VERMEULEN That's correct. MR BERGER The attack took place at the end of 1985. MR VERMEULEN That's correct. MR BERGER So let's just work backwards. How long had you been with C-Section before the attack took place? MR VERMEULEN It couldn't have been long, about three months, two months. MR BERGER Alright, so then that means that you joined C-Section in about September/October 1985. MR VERMEULEN No, October, sometime in October. MR BERGER Alright. October 1985 you joined C-Section. You would have been at Vlakplaas, am I correct? MR VERMEULEN I don't know where, I could have been any place. MR BERGER When you joined C-Section, where did you report? MR VERMEULEN Headquarters. MR BERGER Pretoria? MR VERMEULEN That's correct. MR BERGER And from there where were you sent? MR VERMEULEN Vlakplaas. MR BERGER And from there where were you sent? MR VERMEULEN All over the country, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Before December 1985? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Well where did you go to first? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Mr Chairman, it's along time ago, sometimes we'd go to Soweto, sometimes we'd go to Durban, Cape Town, wherever, so I can't remember exactly where I was at that time. MR BERGER Alright. So then for a while, we'll establish how long that was, when you were based at Vlakplaas you used to go all over the country, Soweto, Durban, other places. MR VERMEULEN That's correct. MR BERGER This was all before you were sent to Ladybrand? MR VERMEULEN Ja, it could be, ja. MR BERGER How long before the attack were you sent to Ladybrand? MR VERMEULEN I'm not sure, I think we worked there for two weeks, it can be even a month, I'm not sure Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Between two weeks and a month. And what work were you doing in Ladybrand? MR VERMEULEN What we would have been doing, we would send out our people to gather information, general work. MR BERGER Who was there? Who was with you in Ladybrand? I'm talking about people from Vlakplaas. MR VERMEULEN I think Adamson was there, I'm not sure. MR BERGER And who else? MR VERMEULEN I don't know any more white people, and then we would have had a lot of blacks working with us, I can't remember who they were. MR BERGER And I suppose you can't remember any of their names. MR VERMEULEN No, it's difficult to put a specific person in the specific time sequence wherever it must be. MR BERGER Was Almond Nofomela there? MR VERMEULEN I'm not sure, I don't think so. MR BERGER And Mr Nortje, when did he arrive in Ladybrand? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Sir. MR BERGER And Mr Coetser, when did he arrive in Ladybrand? MR VERMEULEN Also I don't know. MR BERGER And Mr Bosch, when did he arrive in Ladybrand? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Sir. MR BERGER But what you do know is that you were in Ladybrand with Mr Adamson for some time before Coetser, Bosch and Nortje arrived, would that be correct? MR VERMEULEN Ja, that can be correct. MR BERGER And your work was just a general intelligence gathering exercise. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Intelligence about whom? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Sir, I can't remember that Mr Chairman. MR BERGER You have no idea what work you were doing in Ladybrand? MR VERMEULEN This is 15 years ago that we did that work, you don't go out and put that in a little computer, I can't remember what we did specific at that time, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON When you went to Lesotho you knew why you were going there. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Surely you must have been part of the planning of that escapade or operation. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON That planning took place over at least three weeks. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Were you there from the beginning of the planning? MR VERMEULEN I don't know what happened with the planning, that was Mr de Kock's story. We are all trained people, he doesn't have to tell us what we must do before the time, it just come on ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON My question was, were you part of the planning? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON When did you become part of the operation? MR VERMEULEN The night that we went in, Sir. CHAIRPERSON That's all? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Chairperson, I see it's 11 o'clock, perhaps we should take the adjournment now. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION NICHOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, I understand you're now in possession of those reports and pages that were omitted. MR BERGER Yes, Chairperson, we have now page 3 of the report that we were reading and in paragraph 3.9 of that report it says that, well I'll read the Afrikaans "His memory is poor and he has to write down everything that he has to do." Unfortunately it doesn't indicate whether that's long-term memory or short-term memory and it would seem from the context that it's short-term memory, but one can't really take that further. Mr Vermeulen, are you still receiving a disability grant? MR VERMEULEN I don't understand what you're saying. CHAIRPERSON A grant. MR VERMEULEN I get a normal pension, Chairperson. MR BERGER Is it a disability pension? MR VERMEULEN No, an normal pension, Chairperson. MR BERGER Is this a pension from the South African Police? MR VERMEULEN Correct, Chairperson. MR BERGER And the reason that you had to leave the South African Police was for medical reasons. MR VERMEULEN Correct, Chairperson. MR BERGER And that's why this clinical or this psychological report was commissioned. MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. MR BERGER Do you know a person called Lionel Snyman? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. MR BERGER You work with him, don't you? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. MR BERGER In Josini. MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR BERGER Where do you work? MR VERMEULEN Mbazwana(?) MR BERGER Sorry? MR VERMEULEN Mbazwana. MR BERGER Where's that, Northern Natal? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR BERGER And what work are you presently employed to do? MR VERMEULEN At the moment I'm just looking after a camp. MR BERGER You fly around in helicopters, isn't that so? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. What helicopters? There's no helicopters in Mbazwana as far as I know, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON What kind of work is it? MR VERMEULEN I'm camp manager at the moment. CHAIRPERSON Camp manager. MR VERMEULEN Ja. CHAIRPERSON What kind of camp? MR VERMEULEN A tent camp and the caravans. MR BERGER So is this not a private security company that you work for? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Is it a tourism company? MR VERMEULEN Basically yes, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER So you draw a pension and a salary. MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Don't you get a salary? MR VERMEULEN For the camp? No, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Do you work for free? MR VERMEULEN Ja, at the moment, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Were you in Madagascar in 1994? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER How have you managed to get to this hearing? MR VERMEULEN I came by car, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER You drove from KwaZulu Natal here. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER In your Land Rover. MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairman - not Land Rover, Isuzu. MR BERGER Isuzu four-wheel drive. MR VERMEULEN Two-wheel drive. MR BERGER Let's got back to Ladybrand. CHAIRPERSON I hope it's not in the two-wheel drive. MR BERGER The first that you knew of this operation to attack targets in Maseru, was the night that you left, is that your evidence? MR VERMEULEN Ja, I'll say the night of the 19th, Mr Chairman. That's what I can remember. MR BERGER The 19th of December 1985? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER So earlier that day you were just hanging around the offices in Ladybrand and you had no idea that that night you were going to be leaving for Maseru. MR VERMEULEN I don't know, I'm not sure, but I don't think I was hanging around the offices because that was not our style, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Well what you do know is that it was during the night that you were first informed about this attack and it was that night that you left on the attack. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER What were you told immediately before you left, or from the time that you were made aware that you're now leaving or there's a plan to leave, what were you told about the attack? MR VERMEULEN As far as I can remember I was told that we're going to attack an ANC house in Maseru, that's all, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Who told you that? MR VERMEULEN Mr de Kock, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Was this one-on-one or did he call you all together into a room and brief you? MR VERMEULEN I can't remember, but all that I do know is that I was told I must go join the group and I must go to Maseru and we're going to attack a house with the ANC people in it. MR BERGER Did you know who was in this group? MR VERMEULEN No, Sir. MR BERGER No names? MR VERMEULEN No. MR BERGER What they had done or what they were planning to do, were you told that? MR VERMEULEN No. Not that I can remember, but I will stick to "no". MR BERGER You'll stick to "no"? MR VERMEULEN Ja. MR BERGER Okay. So you were told there's an ANC house, in other words a house with ANC people inside "that we are going to attack, you must come along"? MR VERMEULEN That's correct. MR BERGER So you knew nothing about the boats or vehicles or weapons or anything before that? MR VERMEULEN The boats were bought by Adamson before, that's what I heard after the time. I wasn't involved in that. The boats came there and that's the time when we went onto the river, we put the stuff into the boats and we went over the river. I was not involved in getting the boats and getting weapons and everything. MR BERGER Who told you after the time that Adamson had bought the boats? MR VERMEULEN I can't remember, it can be in a general conversation. MR BERGER Where, back in Ladybrand? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Sir. MR BERGER Well when you left - I take it you left from the Ladybrand offices, or did you leave from your house in Ladybrand? MR VERMEULEN I think we left from the house on a farm in Ladybrand. MR BERGER Alright. When you left from the house you were not given any instructions about what was going to happen along the way, whether you were going to go through the border posts, whether you were going to go over a river? MR VERMEULEN Could have told me that but I can't recall any of that instructions. MR BERGER And what was your instruction as to what you were going to do when you got to this ANC house, was it that you were going to kill everyone inside, was it that you were going to arrest them? MR VERMEULEN As far as I can remember we were going to kill them, were going to shoot them. MR BERGER Now would you turn to page 124 please, bundle 1, page 123 over to 124, that there are a number of incidents that you speak about, for which you're applying for amnesty. MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR BERGER And you can remember a little bit about each of them, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN That's correct. MR BERGER Then you come to Lesotho, 19 December 1985, at the bottom of page 124, you say "We drove with a vehicle to Ladybrand and amongst others, there was a Land Cruiser and two Jettas. We stayed there in a caravan park." Now what if any of that, is correct? MR VERMEULEN The caravan park is not right, because we were there before the time as well, we were in Ladybrand and we stayed in the caravan park but after refreshing my memory, the caravan park is not right, it was on a previous occasion. MR BERGER Who refreshed your memory for you? MR VERMEULEN I think Mr Nortje, I spoke to him. MR BERGER And the Land Cruiser? MR VERMEULEN The Land Cruiser was Col de Kock's. That Land Cruiser could have come there the day that we wen to the border, because as far as I know the Land Cruiser picked us up when we came back from the operation. MR BERGER And the two Jettas? MR VERMEULEN They were on the other side already. MR BERGER You see because then you say "Willie (that's Willie Nortje), de Kock, Joe Coetser and I, amongst others, drove with the vehicles through the border post and I used a false passport. MR VERMEULEN Well there I think I a little bit confused there, but we went through with the boats. On previous occasions we crossed the border yes, and I think here I became confused. MR BERGER Aren't you applying for amnesty for using a false passport? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Sir. MR BERGER Well did you show your passport when you crossed the river? MR VERMEULEN No. CHAIRPERSON What offence did you commit, possession of a false passport? MR VERMEULEN It can be yes, Mr Chair, because I used the passport on previous occasions that we crossed the border, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON The application that we're busy with relates to the attack on a house in Lesotho on the 19th/20th December 1985, we're not busy with any offences that you may have committed on other occasions. MR VERMEULEN Well this is not right, Mr Chair, it's just me and Coetser that went over the river by boat. I did not go by car. CHAIRPERSON Which means on other occasions you crossed the border in the company of Willie, de Kock and Joe Coetser also. MR VERMEULEN On different occasions it can be yes, Sir, and with people of the Security Branch of Ladybrand. CHAIRPERSON Well you see what I'm trying to establish is that if your memory is questionable and you're making a mistake about a previous occasion, then you must have had the same company on the previous occasion. MR VERMEULEN Ja, I won't deny that, Sir, but Coetser and Nortje, it's not necessary that they were both with me at a certain time, we could have been, rotated different people, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Mr Vermeulen, would it be correct to say that you, Mr Nortje, Mr de Kock and Mr Coetser had during the time you were working in Ladybrand, gone into and out of Lesotho on a number of occasions? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Using Mr de Kock's Land Cruiser? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Using the two Jettas? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Well then why do you say "met die voertuie deur die grenspos". MR VERMEULEN On the previous occasions it was with, mostly we crossed the border with a security car from Ladybrand, we didn't use these vehicles. MR BERGER And what did you do when you got into Lesotho? On the previous occasions. MR VERMEULEN We mostly had discussions at the Lesotho Sun, or Maseru Sun, whatever that hotel is called. MR BERGER With who? MR VERMEULEN I can't remember, Sir. MR BERGER Mr McCaskill? MR VERMEULEN No. MR BERGER When was the first time you met Mr McCaskill? MR VERMEULEN I think it was the night when we came back, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER The night of the operation? MR VERMEULEN Ja. CHAIRPERSON Look at page 125, in the middle of the last relevant paragraph, you say "We took a source along with us. I think his name was Frik." Who was that? MR VERMEULEN That is Mr McCaskill, that's the name that I knew him by, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Berger. MR BERGER Thank you, Chair. Who crossed the river, it was just you and Mr Nortje, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN No, me and Mr Coetser. MR BERGER Sorry, Mr Coetser. Just the two of you? MR VERMEULEN As far as I can remember, yes Sir. MR BERGER You each took a boat. MR VERMEULEN Ja. MR BERGER Didn't one of the boats sink? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR BERGER Whose boat? MR VERMEULEN I'm not sure. We just had the two boats and we pushed them together, so I can't say this boat was mine and that one was Joe's, we just pushed the little boats, the two little small boats that we pushed over. I can't remember whatever one, there wasn't said "This boat, this number one, that's yours and that's boat number two, that's yours". MR BERGER Oh did you walk through the river pushing the boats in front of you? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR BERGER And everyone else drove through the border post. MR VERMEULEN As far as I know, as I can remember, yes Sir. CHAIRPERSON If you were able to walk through the river, what was the purpose of the boats? MR VERMEULEN The equipment was heavy and the river was in flood, Chairperson. MR BERGER Mr Vermeulen, what I can't understand is, if you can remember that you didn't got through the border post, that you didn't use the vehicles as you've written here, that in fact you and Mr Coetser went by boat or walked with the boats, if you can remember all of that and if you can remember now as you described it, putting the boats together and crossing the river, how is it that all of a sudden when you get to the other side, your memory deserts you? How is it that you don't remember anything that happened at the post office? MR VERMEULEN I don't know that - as far as I can recall, I wasn't at the post office. I don't recall at all going to the post office. MR BERGER Well according to Mr de Kock, you were all at the post office waiting, you waited for some time, the informer, Frik, came to you. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, that is not my recollection of Mr de Kock's evidence, they were in two cars, he never said that both cars were at the post office. MR BERGER My error then. Well if you were not at the post office, where were you? MR VERMEULEN We were on our way - when we crossed the river, gave out the weapons and then we walked up to - or we drived and stopped and then we got out of the cars and we walked up to the house. That is ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, I don't know if you're quite correct to concede that, as I remember the evidence it's that at the post office, de Kock was informed by McCaskill that the main target that had left that ...(indistinct), he then gave an order to Coetser and Adamson to do what he told them to do, and the rest left with that car from the post office to whether the targets were. And this witness, Vermeulen, was part of that group that went to the main house where the party was, so it follows that it was at the post office. That was the rendezvous place, isn't it? MR BERGER Well Chairperson, I thought so, but ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well that's how I understand ...(indistinct - no microphone). Carry on. If you need another minute ... MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, perhaps I omitted to lead Mr de Kock on this, but he could have given relevant evidence and according to what he tells me now, the only people who were at the post office waiting for Mr McCaskill, was Mr de Kock himself and Mr Nortje, from there they went and picked up the others and then travelled to the house. That evidence was not led but if necessary Mr de Kock can be recalled to give that evidence. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, will you concede that that's the impression that could have been ... MR HATTINGH Indeed, on the evidence that was led, that is a valid impression, yes Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Chairperson, if that evidence is going to be placed before the Committee, the it will have to be led through Mr de Kock, because there are further questions one would want to ask. CHAIRPERSON On that basis? MR BERGER On that small aspect ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, now we're in the situation - I'm going to assume that Mr Hattingh is then going to, or I'll call Mr de Kock back and allow Mr Hattingh to lead that bit of evidence, even if it's going to take a few seconds, then you can proceed on the basis that that evidence will be led. MR BERGER I'll do that. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, I've just informed Mr Berger ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH I heard what you said, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Are you comfortable with that? MR HATTINGH Yes, that is quite in order with me, yes Mr Chairman. I understood you to say you want to do it now, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON No, I said we find ourselves in the situation, I will call Mr de Kock back and ask you to lead him on this bit of evidence, even if it's going to take a few seconds, so Mr Berger can proceed with the present situation as if that evidence is on record already. Are you comfortable with that, Mr Berger? MR BERGER Yes, Chairperson, I am. Mr Vermeulen, let's get accuracy on this. The only people who crossed the river by boat were you and Mr ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Not by boat, they walked over, pushing a boat. It sounds strange, but ... MR BERGER Yes, Chairperson. The only two people who crossed the river were you and Mr Coetser. MR VERMEULEN I will say that's correct, Mr Chairman, as far as I can remember. MR BERGER Mr Adamson, Mr Bosch, Mr de Kock, Mr Nortje, they went through the border post. MR VERMEULEN Yes, I will say so, ja. MR BERGER You had been told "We're going to attack an ANC house in Maseru". MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER You were not given any further instructions. MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER When you got to the other side of the river, you and Mr Coetser proceeded to the house. MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Oh, that was the way I understood your evidence and that is the way you're written it at page 125. You say "After we had crossed the border we stopped and moved by foot towards a house." What have I left out? MR VERMEULEN I'm not sure, I think we - at that place where we crossed the river, the weapons were distributed and as far as I can remember, I think we went with the car for a while and then we stopped and then we walked from there to the house. I didn't know where the house was, I didn't have the faintest idea, so I just followed. CHAIRPERSON Coetser should have known where that house was. MR VERMEULEN Yes, he would have known, Chairperson, because he had been through more times. CHAIRPERSON No, I just want to get clarity here. I do not know what Mr de Kock will come and say, but do I understand correctly that the two of you, Coetser and yourself walked across the river, left the boat or whatever it was there and went directly to the house that was to be attacked? MR VERMEULEN I recall, or I'm almost certain that there were vehicles that came to pick us up, I think it was the two Jettas and we drove with them up to a certain point and there we climbed out and walked on foot to the house. CHAIRPERSON So you never went to any hotel or anything similar, or post office building? MR VERMEULEN Not as far as I can recall, Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN But where were the weapons distributed? MR VERMEULEN I have told you, Chairperson, when we went through the river the guys came down and we distributed the firearms there, because the vehicles did not go through the border post with weapons. MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. What weapons did you bring across? MR VERMEULEN As far as I can remember it was mostly Uzzis. MR BERGER How many? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Sir, I can't recall. MR BERGER Well how many in your party, in your attack party? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Sir. MR BERGER Well let's count, there's Mr de Kock, Mr Nortje, Mr Adamson, Mr Bosch, Mr Coetser and you, that makes six people. MR VERMEULEN Ja. MR BERGER Have I left out anybody? MR VERMEULEN Not as far as I know, no. MR BERGER Was there anyone else present? MR VERMEULEN No. MR BERGER Any black members present? MR VERMEULEN No. It can only be the weapons that was in that boat was for the operatives that went to the other side. MR BERGER Well then why do you say you don't know how many people were in your party? MR VERMEULEN Some guy can put in a pistol extra, we didn't look. MR BERGER No, no, I said how come you don't know how many members there were in your party, in your attack party? MR VERMEULEN I didn't recall that, you just asked me how many weapons were in the boat, as far as I remember. CHAIRPERSON Well answer that question. MR VERMEULEN What I can recall now, Mr Chairperson, it would have been myself, Coetser, Nortje, Adamson, Bosch and Mr de Kock. MR BERGER So you would have had, at most, six Uzzis. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chair. MR BERGER Any other arms? MR VERMEULEN Usually the guys would have put in their side arms, I'm not sure. MR BERGER When you got the other side of the river, were you met by any other members of your group? MR VERMEULEN I can't recall, I think we were there first with the boats and they came on later, a couple of minutes. MR BERGER All four of them? MR VERMEULEN I'm not sure, Sir, I can't remember exactly what happened there. MR BERGER And then you loaded the arms into the Jettas. MR VERMEULEN No, I just think everybody took his own weapon, I don't think they loaded in the back ...(intervention) MR BERGER And everybody got into the vehicles. MR VERMEULEN That's it. MR BERGER And then you were driven for a distance. MR VERMEULEN Ja. MR BERGER And then you and Mr Coetser got out. MR VERMEULEN All of us got out I think, Mr Nortje and de Kock and myself. I can't remember from there what happened to Coetser and the others. MR BERGER You, Mr Nortje, Mr de Kock and Mr Bosch ...(intervention) MR VERMEULEN Ja I think Bosch, ja, he was also in the car, that's it. MR BERGER The four of you got out of the car. MR VERMEULEN Ja. No, Bosch stayed in, just the three of us. MR BERGER You, de Kock and Nortje. MR VERMEULEN Ja. MR BERGER You got out and then you went to the house. MR VERMEULEN That's correct. MR BERGER Didn't you say to the Chairperson a little while ago that you and Coetser went to the house? MR VERMEULEN No, I'm not sure I said that. MR BERGER So who knew the way to the house? MR VERMEULEN It was Mr de Kock and I think Mr Nortje. I didn't know where it was. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vermeulen, did I not ask you earlier if you did not know the route to the house then it had to have been Coetser and then you testified that what happened was, the vehicles came to fetch you at the river and you drove up to a point. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And then you walked from there. MR VERMEULEN That's correct. MR BERGER And the impression that I gained was that you and Coetser walked from that point to that house. MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Who walked? MR VERMEULEN It was myself, Nortje and Col de Kock. CHAIRPERSON Only the three of you? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yourself, Nortje and Col de Kock, where was Bosch? MR VERMEULEN I think he remained behind in the car, he did not get out. CHAIRPERSON And who else was there? MR VERMEULEN It was only us. CHAIRPERSON Where was Adamson? MR VERMEULEN I don't know. CHAIRPERSON And Coetser? MR VERMEULEN I do not know where he was. MR BERGER So only three people attacked the house? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER The other three people just disappeared. MR VERMEULEN Ja, I don't know where they were, I didn't ask. MR BERGER And when did you see them again? MR VERMEULEN I think I saw them when we were back on the other side again. MR BERGER How did you get back onto the other side? MR VERMEULEN We went through the river again. MR BERGER Who? MR VERMEULEN All of us, as far as I remember. MR BERGER All three of you, you, Mr de Kock, Mr Nortje. MR VERMEULEN And Bosch. MR BERGER Oh where did he appear from? MR VERMEULEN He "mos" stayed in the car. We left from the river in the car and we went to a point, we got out and walked further to the house. Bosch stayed in the car. MR BERGER And then after the attack you got back into the car with Bosch? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Sir. MR BERGER The three of you plus him? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER And then you saw - you only met Adamson and Coetser on the other side of the border. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman, that's what I can recall. MR BERGER And so when did you meet Frik for the first time, on the other side of the border? MR VERMEULEN No, I think I met him there when we got to the river, that's where I took the, I think the TV or whatever, I'm not sure, where I got possession of the TV. It could have been at the house before we left or it might be down at the river. I'm not sure where I took hold of the TV and that suitcase. MR BERGER So the informer was at the house where the attack took place, where you were present? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, I didn't see Frik at all, Mr McCaskill. MR BERGER You just met him at the river? MR VERMEULEN That's when I - ja, it could have been from the river up back to the house, I'm not sure where I met him. MR BERGER And why did you have to carry this TV set and suitcase across? MR VERMEULEN That was, I think it was his possessions and he couldn't swim properly and the river was getting strong, that's why I took it over because I can swim. MR BERGER But that's absurd, what, did he think there were no television sets in South Africa? Why did he have ... (intervention) MR VERMEULEN Ask him, Sir, I don't know why he wanted the television set. MR BERGER Who asked you to take the television set? MR VERMEULEN I go the instruction from Col de Kock, I think - ja, but I know the television set was his, because he told me when I took possession of it, it was his. MR BERGER And his suitcase? MR VERMEULEN I don't know if it was his suitcase but it was a suitcase. MR BERGER You were carrying a television set and a suitcase as you crossed this river that's in flood? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Sir. MR BERGER And your weapon? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR BERGER And no boats? MR VERMEULEN No boats. I'm not sure if they took one back because the other one was completely broken. I think that went down the river, I'm not sure. MR BERGER And where were the cars burnt? MR VERMEULEN On the river edge. MR BERGER Who burnt them? MR VERMEULEN Col de Kock. I'm not sure which people were involved in the burning, but they were burnt there. MR BERGER You weren't involved? MR VERMEULEN I don't think I participated in that. MR BERGER Why were they burnt? MR VERMEULEN 'Cause we didn't want to go back with them over the border. MR BERGER You can remember that you took up a position outside the house. MR VERMEULEN That's correct. MR BERGER You can remember that you never participated in the attack. MR VERMEULEN That's correct. MR BERGER You can still remember seeing that man, that neighbour put his head out to see what was happening. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER You can remember taking aim at him. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER And firing. MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER No, but it didn't go off. MR VERMEULEN Ja, it didn't go off. MR BERGER But you tried to fire. MR VERMEULEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why would you want to kill him? That wasn't part of your instruction. MR VERMEULEN No, but he could have been a witness to the fact that we were there, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I understand that, but was that your instruction? MR VERMEULEN It was not my instruction, my instruction was to secure the people who were in the house shooting the people in the house. CHAIRPERSON So the reason why you wanted to shoot him was to avoid him recognising you? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR BERGER Do you remember the person outside the house, who was getting something from a car? MR VERMEULEN At which stage, Mr Chairman? MR BERGER As you attacked ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE Getting something from a car or getting into a car, Mr Berger? MR BERGER He was busy getting into the car, he was in the vicinity of the car. MR VERMEULEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON Can you recall whether someone came out of the house who would be attacked? And he was close to a car. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson, when we walked up to the house a person came out of the house, he wanted to climb into the car and Col de Kock shot him. CHAIRPERSON Did he see you? MR VERMEULEN I would not know whether he saw us. CHAIRPERSON Why was he shot? MR VERMEULEN Because he came out of the house and I would assume that he was part of the people at the party. CHAIRPERSON How far were you from that person when he or she was shot? MR VERMEULEN I would guesstimate, it's difficult, it was at night, but I was say between 10 and 20 metres. CHAIRPERSON You say this was at night. MR VERMEULEN It was not entirely dark but the lights in the vicinity gave some light there. CHAIRPERSON That's why I ask, why do you have trouble in judging how far you were? MR VERMEULEN Because it's difficult in the dark ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Could you see who it was? MR VERMEULEN We could not see the face but we could see it was a person and he came out of the house. CHAIRPERSON Where was McCaskill then? MR VERMEULEN At that stage I did not see him yet, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON no-one would have known whether that person was a member of the ANC, whether he was a member of the group who threatened South Africa? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson, the only thing we saw is this guy coming out of the house, the house that we had to attack. MR BERGER Mr Vermeulen, how did you know that there was a party at that house? MR VERMEULEN I didn't know there was a party. MR BERGER No? You just said now he was one of the people coming from the party. MR VERMEULEN I've been listening the whole week, I've been sitting here and everybody's been speaking about a party, so it's a party, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER So you had not been told that a party has been arranged for certain people who were about to attack South Africa. MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman, the nitty-gritty, I did not know, I'm an operative, I just get my instructions and that's what I do, I don't want to know who and what and where. He just tells me I must go there and that is my job and that I do. That's how we're trained and that's how I accept it. If they want to tell me anything more they will tell it themselves. MR BERGER I see your psychiatrist says that you're still fit to be a soldier. MR VERMEULEN Still? MR BERGER You're still fit to be a soldier. MR VERMEULEN I think I can, ja. MR BERGER And in order to be a soldier you must still be able to carry out instructions. MR VERMEULEN Yes, I think so I can, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER Try and recall the man who came out of the house and who was getting into that car, was he shot in the car? MR VERMEULEN I think he was shot while he was getting into the car. MR BERGER You can still remember that? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR BERGER And then you can't remember seeing Mr McCaskill at any time before you got to the river. MR VERMEULEN No. MR BERGER And you can't remember seeing Mr Adamson or Mr Coetser at any time until you got back into South Africa. MR VERMEULEN No. MR BERGER Did you at any time go into the house? MR VERMEULEN No. MR BERGER You can remember that clearly, you never went into the house? MR VERMEULEN I didn't go into the house. MR VERMEULEN That was not my instructions. MR BERGER You never fired your weapon at all through this whole operation? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR BERGER When you got back onto the South African side, did you go back to the farmhouse? MR VERMEULEN As far as I can recall, yes Sir. MR BERGER And was there a debriefing? MR VERMEULEN No, not that I can remember. MR BERGER You were never told what Mr Adamson and Mr Coetser did? MR VERMEULEN I think they could have told us later on but I don't think I actually asked. It could have come out when everybody was speaking, I don't know, I can't remember. MR BERGER Why do you say in your amnesty application that Brig Schoon and Basie Smit were present when you received your medal for bravery? MR VERMEULEN 'Cause I think they were the people that were at that time in charge of the Security Police. MR BERGER Are you confusing this with another occasion when you got another medal for bravery? MR VERMEULEN No, I haven't got - didn't get any more medals for bravery. MR BERGER Is this the only medal you got? MR VERMEULEN Ja. MR BERGER Are you proud of your medal? MR VERMEULEN For what? MR BERGER For bravery. MR VERMEULEN No. MR BERGER Do you still have it with you? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR BERGER I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chair. Mr Vermeulen, there's just one aspect that I would like to deal with with you and I must say at the outset that it's not an aspect that flows out of your amnesty application or the merits of the matter, it is an aspect that deals with the integrity of this process and it related to an incident that occurred yesterday. It was reported to me that you referred to this process as a circus, is that correct, Mr Vermeulen? MR VERMEULEN No, it's not correct, Mr Chairman. MS PATEL Then what exactly did you say? MR VERMEULEN I was in a private telephone conversation with a friend of mine and what I called a circus was not the process, I've got a lot of respect for the process, but what I haven't got - what's like a circus to me was the time up and down and all that, that I described as a circus. I've got no problem with the authority and the process that's going on, but there's a lot of things that is bothering me, especially going up and down and coming here and all that, that doesn't make sense to me. Sometimes I've been sitting here for a month that I didn't give any evidence and all that, that was all. I haven't got any problem with the whole process. MS PATEL Inasmuch as it was a conversation on the telephone, it was a conversation that you held in earshot of the victims who are present, of some of the victims who are present here, it was in the earshot of some of the media who was present here, do you deny that? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, I didn't even see them. I didn't do that on purpose. MS PATEL It's not really the point, whether you did it on purpose or not, Mr Vermeulen, the point is you attack the integrity of this process. MR VERMEULEN I did not do that. MS PATEL And I must say to you that as an official of this Commission, I take grave exception to what you have said and your views on this process, it puts into question your motivation for participating in this process to start off with and it also - I must remind you that one of the primary objectives of this process is to try to foster reconciliation between parties and with an attitude as you have expressed inasmuch as I have heard you explanation, which I must say I don't accept, inasmuch as I've heard your explanation you make it very difficult for that to ever occur in this country and I must say to you that not only on behalf of myself but on behalf of colleagues of mine who are present at the hearing, we must say that we find your attitude unacceptable and unconscionable. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius. MR CORNELIUS ADDRESSES Thank you, Mr Chair. I'd like to reply to what Ms Patel said now. I would just like to say my client tendered his apology personally to her yesterday afternoon, which she did not want to accept and place it formally on record, so I'm placing it formally on record that he did apologise, he had no ...(indistinct) at all and didn't want to publicise anything. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible - no microphone) MS PATEL Your microphone. CHAIRPERSON If his explanation is to be accepted, that he did not refer to the process as a circus, then why did he apologise? MR CORNELIUS I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I'm not with you. CHAIRPERSON It's a simple question, Mr Cornelius. If I have to accept what he said in respect of the allegation, that he did not refer to the process as a circus, then why did he find it necessary to apologise to Ms Patel? MR CORNELIUS I found it necessary because I was present with the argument that resulted in the restaurant next-door, so we felt it was necessary to apologise. For what it's worth, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any re-examination? MR CORNELIUS I've got no re-examination, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Chairperson, before my learned friend ... there's just one aspect that came out here during the cross-examination, which I just want to quickly put to Mr Vermeulen. Mr Vermeulen, I just want to put it to you that Mr Nortje was with you when you waded through the river, when you went into Lesotho. You testified that your recollection indicated that he went through in a vehicle, but I put it to you that he will testify that he went through the river with you. MR VERMEULEN I would accept that I could have made a mistake there, I'm not certain. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey, is that also for Coetser? MR LAMEY Nortje, Vermeulen and Coetser went through together. Then upon the return after the attack was launched, my instructions are ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Before you continue, Mr Lamey, was that up to the incident or after their return? MR LAMEY This is the crossing from South Africa to Lesotho, this is while they were under way, not during their return. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR LAMEY Then upon returning it is my instruction that a dinghy was found beside the river, which had gone flat and then all the members, including Mr McCaskill, waded through the river back to the RSA. In other words, you did not encounter the other members on the RSA side of the river again, you found them on the Lesotho side and all of you crossed the river back to the RSA again. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY And that one dinghy was still usable and that the television was placed in the dinghy when you went back over. MR VERMEULEN It may be so, but I'm under the impression that we carried it. MR LAMEY It is a minor aspect, but insofar as it is relevant. Thank you, Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Vermeulen, I note that your written application contains many factual errors, as you were able to concede during Mr Berger's cross-examination of you, and I got the impression that you had discussions with Mr Nortje and Mr Coetzee(sic) who were able to refresh your memory and you were able to recollect better after you had had this consultation. Is my impression correct? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Did you make Mr Cornelius aware of these corrections prior to you giving testimony to this Panel this morning? MR VERMEULEN Not this morning, no, Mr Chairman. JUDGE KHAMPEPE But you at an earlier occasion, make him aware of these corrections? MR VERMEULEN I spoke to him yesterday, Mr Chairman. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And still this morning these corrections were not corrected when your evidence-in-chief was led. That's an issue to take up with Mr Cornelius, not with you. It's just that I think it perturbs us when such a situation occurs, because it reflects very badly on an applicant whilst he is legally represented. MR LAMEY Judge, with due respect, you would recall I did make the corrections in his evidence-in-chief, it was specifically led, that was when Mr Berger made the remark "Stop leading the witness", that is when I corrected it. JUDGE KHAMPEPE I don't think so, Mr Cornelius, you didn't make the factual corrections that came out during Mr Berger's cross-examination and I don't think you should belabour the matter any further. Otherwise I have no questions for Mr Vermeulen. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vermeulen, when did you decide to make this application? MR VERMEULEN I beg your pardon, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON When did you decide to make this application? MR VERMEULEN The amnesty application? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VERMEULEN I cannot recall, Chairperson, it was a long time ago. CHAIRPERSON How did it come to be that you decided to apply? MR VERMEULEN I was a witness for the investigating team from the Attorney-General's office, I provided information for them and from there they advised me to apply for amnesty and I then went to Mr Cornelius and he became my legal representative. CHAIRPERSON You attached all the relevant documentation such as reports and psychological reports and evaluations to your application. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And this was sent through to the TRC office by Mr Cornelius. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you ever have the opportunity or did you indeed ever discuss this matter with fellow applicants before you applied for amnesty? MR VERMEULEN Before I submitted my original application? Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was there a meeting during which you decided that you were going to make these applications? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON At which stage did you meet? MR VERMEULEN We met on various occasions at the A-G's office. CHAIRPERSON To discuss whether or not you were going to make applications? MR VERMEULEN No. CHAIRPERSON No, I'm speaking of you in your capacity as applicants. MR VERMEULEN No, there wasn't such an occasion. CHAIRPERSON Did you perhaps discuss what actually happened there, perhaps because you had forgotten a number of facts regarding this particular incident? MR VERMEULEN Regarding this specific incident or do you mean incidents in general? CHAIRPERSON Incidents in general and this specific incident. MR VERMEULEN Yes, we did because there were many incidents that we had forgotten about, which we couldn't always recall. CHAIRPERSON And with regard to this incident? MR VERMEULEN This specific incident. I think I may have refreshed my memory with Mr Nortje on a few occasions. CHAIRPERSON Let us attempt to recall the events in Lesotho. As I have understood your evidence you were very low on the rank list and you just did your job as you said. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You followed your orders and that was all. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Didn't you ever during any one of those journeys, ask why you were supposed to go and kill people because it is wrong? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson, it never occurred to me. CHAIRPERSON Why not? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Chairperson. If you received an order, you received an order and there was no way to question that order. CHAIRPERSON Even though you were a policeman or a soldier, when you kill someone illegally then you should be concerned, then you should ask why. One wouldn't commit murder without knowing why. MR VERMEULEN I wasn't concerned. CHAIRPERSON Not at all? MR VERMEULEN No. CHAIRPERSON Why not? MR VERMEULEN Because it was necessary to be concerned, I had the authorisation. CHAIRPERSON But I cannot blame you because after all you do not know the Act, but an order to commit murder isn't going to assist you, didn't you know this at that time? MR VERMEULEN It never occurred to me, I simply received the order and we moved out. CHAIRPERSON When you joined Vlakplaas, did you know that you would doing all sorts of things like this, such as murder? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You didn't know? MR VERMEULEN I wouldn't say that I didn't know, but I didn't think that that was Vlakplaas' work. That we would be involved in shooting incidents, yes I was aware of that. CHAIRPERSON What did you think Vlakplaas was? MR VERMEULEN An investigating team, people who conducted investigations and who traced suspects and arrested them and if they were not arrested and a shooting took place, you would have a licence to shoot. CHAIRPERSON Oh. When you joined Vlakplaas, were you not informed that it was a secret place and that whatever happened there should remain a secret? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, I signed the official Secrecy Act, so I knew. CHAIRPERSON But you knew then that nobody was supposed to know about this place and what you were doing there, isn't that so? MR VERMEULEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON It wasn't a regular police station. MR VERMEULEN No it wasn't. CHAIRPERSON And at police stations, regular police station, regular policemen would also take the oath. MR VERMEULEN Not as far as I know. CHAIRPERSON Can you not recall? MR VERMEULEN I do not know, because when I worked at a regular police station I didn't sign the Oath of Secrecy. CHAIRPERSON What rank did you have at that stage? MR VERMEULEN Warrant Officer. CHAIRPERSON And these firearms that you carried there, did you know that they were illegal? MR VERMEULEN To me they were legal because they were State issue. CHAIRPERSON And what did you think you were going to do there is Lesotho? Did you think that you were going to kill people? MR VERMEULEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON Commit murder? MR VERMEULEN I didn't view it as murder. CHAIRPERSON What did you think it was? MR VERMEULEN I thought that it was the prevention of murder here in South Africa. CHAIRPERSON So you did not have the intention to kill? MR VERMEULEN No, I did not harbour any malice towards these persons. CHAIRPERSON Listen to the question because it's important. Do you understand intent? MR VERMEULEN Yes, intent indicates that you want to kill someone. CHAIRPERSON Now when you went there did you go there with the intent to kill someone? MR VERMEULEN At that stage my life was not in jeopardy, so no, but if something had happened or occurred, then I would have shot the person, I would have shot to kill. CHAIRPERSON But you knew what your colleagues were going to do. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you agree with that? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR VERMEULEN Because all of us were members of the same team. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon? MR VERMEULEN We were all in one team. CHAIRPERSON Why did you agree with what your colleagues were going to do? MR VERMEULEN I could just as well have been the man in Mr Nortje's shoes, Mr Nortje could have stood on the side and ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, I'm not referring to Mr Nortje, I'm speaking of you. I want to know whether or not you agreed with what Mr de Kock and the others were going to do in that house, before the incident. MR VERMEULEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR VERMEULEN Because that was the order, that is why we went from South Africa to Lesotho, to penetrate the house and to kill the persons inside that house. CHAIRPERSON And that is murder, isn't it? MR VERMEULEN To me it wasn't murder. CHAIRPERSON What was it then? MR VERMEULEN I prevented further bloodshed and acts of terror in South Africa. CHAIRPERSON Was your attitude towards this incident an attitude of believing that you were acting in defence of South Africa? MR VERMEULEN Yes. I would actually say more the people of South Africa, the South African public. CHAIRPERSON One final aspect. When you acted there in going along with them to go and kill these people, you say that you acted in the defence of the people of South Africa, did you think that people would be killed? MR VERMEULEN When we went to Lesotho? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VERMEULEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON Who told you this? MR VERMEULEN In my mind I knew that we were not going there for nothing, we weren't going there to arrest people and I think that if I'm not mistaken, Mr de Kock told us we are going to strike this house and eliminate the people inside. CHAIRPERSON There was no other reason except the defence of the people of South Africa? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Cornelius, your client states that these documents were in your possession when the application was sent through to Cape Town, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON That is correct, Mr Chair. ...(inaudible - no microphone) ... and the other report was omitted. MR CORNELIUS Yes, that was annexed to the total application which is a very voluminous application and I've never, as you would see in evidence-in-chief, I did not rely on the report either, I didn't lead it. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR CORNELIUS My learned friend, Mr Hattingh, I think referred to the report. I omitted to see that page 3 wasn't there, we obtained it through the TRC, which faxed it from Cape Town. CHAIRPERSON I know that, what I want to know is why you didn't pick it up, we've been sitting here so long in this hearing, and see to it before your client testified, that that documentation was forthcoming. MR CORNELIUS That was my omission, I admit that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, your client is excused. MR LAMEY Thank you, Sir. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Shall we take the lunch break instead of breaking up the next witness? We'll adjourn till 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON I was informed that one of the applicants have taken ill and I spoke to Mr Lamey and the representatives of the family about that, in order to establish time limits for how we're going to proceed in this application in future. That's why I didn't call any of the other representatives. Mr Hattingh, can we get to the small bit of evidence that must be led? MR HATTINGH Certainly, Mr Chairman.