amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-06-12 BLOEMFONTEIN 1 BONGANI KHUMALO AM5415/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54245&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200612bl.htm MR COETZER Thank you Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee. I am Riaan Coetzer working for the firm Vermaak and Denis here in Bloemfontein and represent Mr Sam Odendaal, the son of the deceased in this matter. I thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Coetzer. I think there's a lady next to you. MS MTANGA Thank you Chair, I am Lulama Mtanga the Evidence Leader for the Commission. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may proceed Mr Mbandazayo. BONGANI KHUMALO (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson. Mr Khumalo is it correct that you were born on the 25th of May 1968 in Bethlehem? MR KHUMALO That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Am I correct that you grew up in the Orange Free State Province? MR KHUMALO That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO How far did you go at school? MR KHUMALO Standard 7. MR MBANDAZAYO In which year did you leave school? MR KHUMALO 1986. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, to which organisation do you belong? MR KHUMALO I'm in the PAC. MR MBANDAZAYO When did you join PAC? MR KHUMALO In 1990. MR MBANDAZAYO Where did you join it? MR KHUMALO I was in Phuthaditjhaba, Qwaqwa. MR MBANDAZAYO Who recruited you into PAC? MR KHUMALO It is Daniel Makara. MR MBANDAZAYO Were you at any stage a member of APLA? MR KHUMALO No. MR MBANDAZAYO Now you are applying for amnesty for an incident that happened in 19 - sorry Chairperson, ADV SANDI 1992. MR MBANDAZAYO For an incident that happened on the 25th December 1992. MR KHUMALO That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee why did you - why were you involved in this incident? MR KHUMALO I do not understand. Which incident Sir? JUDGE DE JAGER Was it on Christmas Day in 1992? MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson? JUDGE DE JAGER Was it on Christmas Day in 1992? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson according to - ...(intervention) MR COETZER Can I just correct you? It was the 25 February 1992. MR MBANDAZAYO 5th of December. MR COETZER 25th of February 1992. MR MBANDAZAYO About the incident that happened on the 25th of February 1992, how did you become involved in that incident? MR KHUMALO I was sent by my Commander Daniel Makara. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes. What did he say to you? Where did you meet Daniel Makara and when did he give you whatever instructions to go there? Let me start - where did you meet Daniel Makara? MR KHUMALO I met him in ... (no sound coming through) MR MBANDAZAYO So you were recruited by an APLA member to PAC? MR KHUMALO That is so, Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO He did not recruit you into APLA MR KHUMALO He recruited me to the PAC. MR MBANDAZAYO How often were you meeting with Daniel Makara after he recruited you? MR KHUMALO He used to frequent Qwaqwa, especially for the PAC meeting. MR MBANDAZAYO Now did he ever speak to you about operations of APLA or anything during your meetings with him? MR KHUMALO No, he did not often talk about them. In short let me put it this way, he did not talk to me about them. MR MBANDAZAYO Now then on the 23rd of February according to you he came to you? MR KHUMALO That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO What did he say to you? MR KHUMALO He explained the issue of attacking farmers, white farmers. He wanted me to lend a hand to assist the organisation for what was needed. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, continue. In what sense, to assist the organisation in what sense? What was needed in the organisation? MR KHUMALO He explained to me that the organisation wanted firearms, anything that I could lay my hands on at the farms where he sent me and he asked me whether I knew the place he was going to send me to. He asked me whether I knew the ...(indistinct) area. I told him yes, I know the area. He then explained to me that he wanted me to go and assist there in the farmers around that area and he said: "Well, you will choose the day you want to go, that is if you have found a suitable time." In other words, the place I was going to, I was not provided with a weapon. How I was going to carry out the instruction was on my shoulders as to how I get there. When I arrived at this farm at Riets, that's where I met Jabulani Shabalala, but his other name is Dladla and this is the person I familiarised myself with at that farm and I wanted information about a white man called Odendaal as to what did he have, what was going on because it looked like he had been employed at that farm for quite a long time, but at that time there were not many employees. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Khumalo, when is that? You told us that you met Daniel Makara on the 23rd, when did you go and see Dladla now, was it the same day? MR KHUMALO I went on the 24th, actually it was on a Monday. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay, was this Dladla working on the farm? MR KHUMALO He was not working at that time but he had previously worked on that farm, according to what he told me. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you then continue? MR KHUMALO Let me start from the 24th and that's when I acquainted myself with Dladla. I spent that night. The next day, on the 25th in the afternoon, that is from the morning of the 25th - let me say that from the 24th in the afternoon I actually told him how we wanted to get there, because I knew that always when you go to a person in the company of someone who knows, that person would not be suspicious of anything, that is why I decided to take him with me, but he was going to be a spy, he was going to be someone who will look, he will watch the situation as I proceed with my CHAIRPERSON Mr Khumalo, Mr Khumalo, you know you are racing. I hear my interpreters battling to keep pace with you. Could you, whilst testifying, give them a chance to interpret because we all want to hear what you are saying? I realise that your nature is to speak fast, but could you put it in second gear for a while and give them a chance? Thank you, you may proceed. MR KHUMALO Okay. On the 25th I reminded Jabulani Shabalala that he would stand at a post when I get at Odendaal's place. We agreed with him and we were going there at 5.30 because the girl who worked there, Anna Magwa, we knew that she knocked off at 5.30 as well as a person who was mingling the cows there. In other words, two people were employed there. Now half-past five was the time Id discovered that these people would have left. Now I was taking him with me so that should it happen that anything disturbs me, then he would inform me quickly but he did not know my mission to that area. Yes we went there and everything went according to how we planned it. We went in at Odendaal's place. JUDGE DE JAGER Did Shabalala know that you're going to kill this man? MR KHUMALO No, he did not know. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. MR KHUMALO He then told himself that he was going with me to this place and to Odendaal and the two of us would stand before him and I just gave him the permission to go with me until we were with Odendaal. It was known in that area that he was selling tobacco and I arrived there pretending to be someone going to buy tobacco, but I had a knife with me. I knew that the knife would not disturb me in any way and I would use it. It was quite a silent way of doing things. People would not even hear that something was going on at Odendaal's. Now this man was in the kraal and he saw us and he came out, he came to approach us. I was together with Jabulani Shabalala. When he arrived, I made as if I was taking out money and I noticed that I had to finish with the job immediately and I stabbed him three times. He tried to fight, but he ended up dying and I asked Jabulani as to where the key of the safe was. He showed me and he said: "Search him on the back pockets". That's where I found a knife, I'm sorry, not a knife but a key. I found - there were two keys, it looked like two keys were those of a safe and the rest, I did not take a good look at them. I went with Jabulani inside. He was going to show me the place as he explained. It's true I was behind him and he showed me where the safe was. He said - he knew two safes in other words. Now this one that we opened, we found firearms inside, these pump guns, many of them, really, but by the look of things, when I left this house, I noticed that they would be visible, we would not be able to hide them because I was walking, I did not have any mode of transport. I wanted then to go and look in the other safe and I also noticed that we had spent too much time inside already because the purpose was to wait outside and sort-of keep guard. So he went out when I asked him to go out and when he went out he saw Anna Magwa getting into another farmhouse. In other words she was running and this made him suspicious that she might have saw something. He came to me, he said: "The girl who is working here", that was Anna Magwa, "is getting into that farmhouse there, she might have seen something." And I said to him: "We have to leave, that is the best thing, before his sons come and get us." He asked me: "Don't we take anything? Don't we take one or two firearms?" and I made him aware: "People are watching at us and we are going to be seen right on that we are the people who committed this act." I took one pump gun and I jumped the fence and I felt no, I would not have a chance to run carrying this because I was running in the field and I left this firearm close to the fence and we ran away towards the tarred road leading to Qwaqwa, that's where the police arrested us. In other words, nothing was taken from that place. That will be my end. MR MBANDAZAYO In your evidence you just indicated that Shabalala did not know anything about that and a Member of the Committee asked you the question and you said he did not know anything. Now all of a sudden Shabalala now is participating as if he knew everything that was taking place. At what stage did Shabalala become aware of what is going to happen? MR KHUMALO Can you - I don't understand your question, Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO My question is that you indicated to a Member of the Committee that Shabalala did not know anything about what you were going to do on the farm. At what stage did Shabalala know what was going to happen on the farm? MR KHUMALO I think Shabalala was already scared and he listened to anything that I was saying, in other words, what he did was due to what I told him. MR MBANDAZAYO So what you are telling the Committee is that Shabalala was just responding on your instructions, he was doing what you were telling him to do? MR KHUMALO That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Now was it the first time that you went to this farm? MR KHUMALO Yes, it was my first time. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you know Anna, who you were talking about before? MR KHUMALO No, I did not know her before. MR MBANDAZAYO Was it the first time on the day in question, that is on the 25th of February that you saw her? MR KHUMALO My apologies. I came to know Anna on the day I went to meet Shabalala for the first time at the farm. MR MBANDAZAYO Would I be correct to say it was the 24th of February, a day before? MR KHUMALO That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you speak to her? MR KHUMALO Yes, we were chatting because I even spent the night there, but we were just chatting about the usual things. ADV SANDI Explain that. What usual things? MR KHUMALO I had asked to spend the night there. They agreed or she agreed because she was the oldest and we were making jokes and just talking. ADV SANDI Shabalala, did he know you before? MR KHUMALO He did not know me before. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO Are you now telling the Committee that you slept on the farm a day before the incident? On the day of the incident you were waking up on the farm? MR KHUMALO That is so. MR MBANDAZAYO And Shabalala and this lady accommodated you though you were a stranger, they were seeing you for the first time? MR KHUMALO Yes, the person that I first met was Jabulani and he managed to take me to that person and that's where he used to visit. It looked like it was not his home. He resided - his home was in Riets, the township of Riets. MR MBANDAZAYO Now am I correct, in your trial you were accusing each other? Would I be correct to say that? MR KHUMALO That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Why was that so? MR KHUMALO Gentlemen, according to my view, he was being bribed because what he testified upon clearly indicated that he had been offered money. MR MBANDAZAYO No, but was he not your co-accused? MR KHUMALO On entering the court, he was known to be my co-accused. MR MBANDAZAYO That is Samuel Shabalala, yes. MR KHUMALO Yes, the same Samuel Shabalala. MR MBANDAZAYO What gave you the idea that he was bribed and he was speaking against you? MR KHUMALO What gives me the idea that he was bribed was that on our way to Bloemfontein to the court, the people who had been made State witnesses, some of them were not even present and I was just surprised to see them. Shabalala was with me in the cell and he could walk free, the police would send him to the shops, he would wash their cars and I would stay in the cell. That gave me that impression, especially what was happening to me when I got arrested, but he disputed anything. MR MBANDAZAYO When you got to court they put charges to you, that is you and Shabalala. Did they not put the same charges against both of you of murder and robbery and you both denied? MR KHUMALO They were mostly referring to me. In other words I was told that I prompted Shabalala to take part in this, that was the language of the Court on that day. CHAIRPERSON You may continue Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO So I was still asking you that at the court you alleged that it was Shabalala who killed the deceased and Shabalala was saying it was you. Why did you not own up and say that Shabalala has nothing to do with this, it was myself who did this or say: "I don't know, I haven't done it. I have nothing to do with it"? MR KHUMALO To tell the truth, the way I was arrested by the police was not well. The police assaulted me. They asked me whether I was a member of the IFP, whether I was a member of the PAC. To them I committed this act because I was a member of a certain organisation. They wanted me to say I was a member of the IFP and I noticed that I would be killed any moment, had I agreed that I belonged to an organisation. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR MBANDAZAYO No, it was not my question. I was asking whether - why did you have to ...? Now in your application for amnesty you were asked if you were a supporter of any political organisation or liberation movement and you state the name that political organisation AZANU. Is that correct? MR KHUMALO That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO But you have just told the Committee in your evidence-in-chief that you were recruited to PAC. Can you tell the Committee about AZANU? MR KHUMALO I - after recruitment, I had to belong to a Task Force and that is the AZANU, after being recruited by Makara. CHAIRPERSON What was AZANU doing because you say, if I understand you, you correct me that they were a Task Force, what were they doing? MR KHUMALO That's where I was taught how to handle firearms and the petrol bombs. CHAIRPERSON But I thought earlier on ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER The Chairperson's mike is not on. CHAIRPERSON But correct me, I thought earlier on you said you were not trained, would I be wrong? MR KHUMALO You are not wrong, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Now which is which because now you tell us this Task Force, AZANU, that's where you got the training, or you were told about these bombs and what have you? MR KHUMALO Yes, that's where we were given training. I might have not put it correctly and from the ...(indistinct), I'm sorry for that. CHAIRPERSON Or did you understand APLA to be - that you were not trained for APLA, but you were trained for AZANU, because I think your legal representative spoke of APLA. MR KHUMALO That is correct, you have it right. CHAIRPERSON Oh. Thank you. You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson. Now you are saying that you were trained in AZANU how to handle firearms and petrol bombs, am I correct? MR KHUMALO That is correct, Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO Who trained you in AZANU? MR KHUMALO I was most of the times with Makara. CHAIRPERSON Was there a specific place where you were trained? In other words will you go to some area and receive training in these bombs and firearms in AZANU? MR KHUMALO Yes, there's a place in Qwaqwa where he took me to and showed me how they worked. CHAIRPERSON Were you alone when you were trained? MR KHUMALO It was the two of us only but he used to come to the meetings so that I could believe that he was one of the PAC, one of the APLA members. CHAIRPERSON Oh and then he would take you to each meeting now, because now you belonged to the Task Force. Which meetings would he take you to? MR KHUMALO We used to have a meeting in Phuthaditjhaba with members of the organisation. CHAIRPERSON What I'm actually driving at, which organisa-tion because you see why I want clarity is that Mr Mbandazayo asked you specifically and said in your application form you said you belonged to a political organisation and in brackets you said AZANU and you further testified that this AZANU was actually a Task Force, now you now attended meetings. I say which party organised those meetings? MR KHUMALO We used to come together. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you and who because for now I just know about Daniel Makara? Would you have the meeting, just the two of you? MR KHUMALO There were other members of the organisation in Phuthaditjhaba. CHAIRPERSON You know, let's get clarity here. We want you to assist us you see, for now we know you belonged to this political organisation which has become a Task Force. Are you saying these other people you met and having this meeting were people of the Task Force, AZANU, or what are you saying to us? We can't follow. You know just to say ... (indistinct - speaking simultaneously) Listen, when you say we used to meet under the umbrella of the organisation, you are saying nothing because you must first say: "This is the organisation and we used to have meetings of this organisation", but for now we know about the Task Force. Were you meeting under the umbrella of the Task Force? MR KHUMALO That is correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON You made proceed Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson. Again now, I'll go to paragraph 7(b) of your application. You were asked the position in which you occupied in whatever organisation, that is AZANU, if any and your answer is that "My position I was in our organisation was to your understanding what was being ...(indistinct) but the second point was that my position was to protect the community in accordance with instruction from my organisation." Now can I ask you this, in what capacity were you in AZANU, or what position were you holding in AZANU? MR KHUMALO I was not in any position. CHAIRPERSON Let me assist you. This is a translation which Mr Mbandazayo is giving you. Your original application, 7(b) they say to you explain any position you held and you come with the first answer "The position within the organisation was the understanding of what was being published. Second, my position was to protect the community according to the order of the organisation." This is what you have written in your handwriting. Now what you representative is telling you is that this is your translation. MR KHUMALO Gentlemen, may you please repeat your question? I'm sorry. CHAIRPERSON No, no, that will emanate from your legal representative, Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO Now let me ask you this before I repeat my question. Did you write this in your own handwriting? MR KHUMALO Yes, Sir, this is my handwriting. MR MBANDAZAYO Now my question then was that I do not understand what is written that when you are asked in which capacity were you or what position were you holding in your organisation and you said your position was what was being published and then second is that your duty was to protect the community, now can you in your own words, after you have read it, explain to the Committee what did you mean by what is written there? Paragraph 7(b) in your own handwriting, can you explain to the Committee? MR KHUMALO The position that I was at was that of being given instructions. In other words this was a stormy area, I don't know whether I am giving an explanation. MR MBANDAZAYO All in all what you are telling the Committee, you never had any position in AZANU? MR KHUMALO That is correct, Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER What happened to Mr Makara? Do you know what happened to him? Could you tell us perhaps? Where is he? MR KHUMALO I learned that he died in 1998. That's what I know. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, ...(indistinct) I will just proceed with 11 (a). You were asked "Was the Act committed in the execution of an order or on behalf of, or with the approval of an organisation, institution, liberation movement, State department or Security Force concern?" Your answer is that: "There was a call from political movement to fight this oppression in the entire South Africa, 1990, the orders came from Siabelo Pama." MR KHUMALO What you have just read here was given to me by Makar, he told me about Mr Siabelo Pama and this great storm. MR MBANDAZAYO Now did you know anything about Siabelo Pama yourself? MR KHUMALO I did not have any knowledge about him. ADV SANDI Did Daniel Makara say to you he knew Siabelo Pama personally? MR KHUMALO Yes, according to his explanation he knew him. ADV SANDI When was the last time you spoke with Daniel Makara? MR KHUMALO That was on the 23rd. ADV SANDI When was that? Was that February, two days before the attack was carried out? MR KHUMALO That is correct, Sir. ADV SANDI Did you speak with him at all after that particular date? MR KHUMALO Except the - I don't catch your question. ADV SANDI Did you speak with Daniel Makara again after the 23rd February 1992? MR KHUMALO I never spoke to him again. The last day was the 23rd. ADV SANDI Did you ever wish to speak with him at all? MR KHUMALO I had it, Sir. ADV SANDI I didn't follow that. You said you had what? MR KHUMALO I had the wish to meet with him and talk with him but then because of the arrest I could not meet with him because I was arrested on the day of committing what I did at the farm, that is on the 25th. ADV SANDI Do you know if he ever made any attempt to contact you after you had been arrested? MR KHUMALO It was not possible Sir to meet with him, that's how I explained it. ADV SANDI Did he send anything or message to you whilst you were in police custody and after you had been convicted and sentenced? MR KHUMALO He never came to me. He resided in Mutsiabelo and I resided in Qwaqwa. I don't know what the end of this was. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members. I was still asking about Siabelo. Let alone by being told by Daniel Makara, did you know yourself Siabelo Pama, not necessarily whether you had met him, had you ever heard about that person and what was he? MR KHUMALO I knew him to be the Chief Commander of APLA. MR MBANDAZAYO Who told you about that? MR KHUMALO Daniel Makara. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. ADV SANDI Did anybody else tell you the same about Siabelo Pama after Daniel Makara had told you that he was the Chief Commander of APLA? MR KHUMALO Yes, the Africans who were with me in Qwaqwa used to talk about him. ADV SANDI Thank you. JUDGE DE JAGER Who took the purse and the money? MR KHUMALO It's Jabulani Shabalala in other words. JUDGE DE JAGER And who took the "windbuks", the air gun? MR KHUMALO I don't understand, what do you mean by that Sir? JUDGE DE JAGER And air gun is a gun that you would shoot birds with, small birds, a pellet gun. MR KHUMALO I do not know what you are talking about. I did not see that. JUDGE DE JAGER But you saw the purse with the money that Shabalala took? MR KHUMALO Yes, he took it. I saw the purse because he had it in the hand, but he did not remove the purse and we did not leave with the purse. JUDGE DE JAGER Where did you see it in his hand? MR KHUMALO We were still at the farm, Sir. JUDGE DE JAGER In the house or outside the house? MR KHUMALO Inside the house. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Khumalo, let me ask you, just for the clarity for the Committee, so that everybody understands. How did you meet Daniel Makara? MR KHUMALO In my explanation I had mentioned that he used to frequent Qwaqwa and I was also a person trying to mix with the members of the organisation because of my friends that were outside and I - so that I knew that this was the PAC organisation. That is why he was also the first person that I managed to talk to him among all the Africans that were there. MR MBANDAZAYO Were there any members of PAC in Qwaqwa? MR KHUMALO Yes, they were still present. MR MBANDAZAYO And you are telling the Committee that Daniel Makwara went to Qwaqwa where there were members of PAC and you just happened to meet him there whilst you were not a member of PAC then yourself? MR KHUMALO I was always mingling with the members of the PAC and that's how I came to know him. He explained to me that he lived in Mutsiabelo and I also know Mutsiabelo quite a little. MR MBANDAZAYO Now can you tell the Committee who were the members of the PAC you were mingling with in Qwaqwa? MR KHUMALO I don't know whether they are well-known people but those I mingled with, one could determine from their talk and from the cards that they showed me that they were members. They all stayed in Phuthaditjhaba. We were just people acquainted to each other and it ended up that I met with Makara. I do not want to lie and commit myself ...(no sound) MR MBANDAZAYO What were you going to do after you had finished your task at the farm? What were your instructions? MR KHUMALO The instruction - may you please repeat the question? ...(end of tape) (Tape 4 English and Floor - inaudible) MR MBANDAZAYO ...of Mr Odendaal and repossess arms and whatever you can lay your hands on, if I'm correct. Now what were you going to do after that with all those things you have laid your hands on? MR KHUMALO I was going to take them to my Commander Daniel Makara. I was going to meet with him In Phuthaditjhaba. MR MBANDAZAYO Is it your evidence that he never gave you any firearms, any weapon to go and pull this mission and he did not give you any other manpower, it was just you alone, to go and pull off this mission? MR KHUMALO Yes, that is correct, Chairperson, I was alone and he never gave me a firearm or any kind of a weapon, it was the way I planned. MR MBANDAZAYO At the time you were given this mission, were you aware what PAC stands for? MR KHUMALO I didn't understand your question Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO At the time you were given this mission, were you aware of the aims and objectives of the PAC? MR KHUMALO Yes, I knew, Chairperson. MR MBANDAZAYO ...(indistinct - mike not on) about the aims and objectives of PAC? MR KHUMALO The objectives of PAC as I was a member of the Task Force, was to look for weapons, to fight for the land which has been confiscated by white farmers. I was told again that among the white farmers, some of them were police or SADF reservists, that is why the operation Great Storm was launched by Siabelo Pama. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Khumalo, what do you say to the relatives of the deceased? What do you say to them? MR KHUMALO To the members of the family I would say to them what I did I did because of the instruction. I regret about what happened, what I did to them, because that was an order, then I know that it cannot ...(indistinct) to execute an order, that is why I did that. I ask for forgiveness from them. MR MBANDAZAYO Finally, with the exception that you were given an order and all those things to go and pull off this mission, can you tell the Committee the reason why they should grant you amnesty in respect of this incident? MR KHUMALO I say that because of the following reasons because I did not plan this personally, I don't know as to whether I explain it enough or correctly. MR MBANDAZAYO That's the evidence of the applicant Chairperson, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON I notice that we have gone just a few - a minute or two past five. I'm conscious that some applicants come with members- came with members of the Department of Correctional Services and they have time constraints. I apologise that we had to do what we did, but could I request you that tomorrow whoever is under your custody, to be brought here that we commence at 9 so that we might move faster? Mr Coetzer, I think you are aware that people have got to go back and there are those procedures, paperwork and what have you, that we stop now and commence again at 9 tomorrow morning. MR COETZER No objections Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Khumalo tomorrow you would be asked questions by Mr Coetzer, Ms Mtanga and if one or two things are not clear in our minds, a few questions will be asked, but we have to stop here at this juncture. You will be back here tomorrow at 9. I have just arranged with the members of the Department of Correctional Services that they should meet us halfway. We thank you for today. We'll see you again tomorrow. We adjourn until tomorrow 9 a.m. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS