amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-06-12 PRETORIA 1 D BAKER https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54249&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200612pt.htm D BAKER (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Baker, you compiled your initial application for amnesty from page 44 of the bundle, bundle 1, up to page 50, which was the initial abbreviated version that you filed, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR VAN DER MERWE Then you also supplied the Truth Commission with a more comprehensive application which is contained in the bundle up to page 77, plus annexures which fill the rest of the bundle, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR VAN DER MERWE Do you confirm the correctness of these applications as they are before this Committee here today? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR VAN DER MERWE The main part of your application can be found on pages 67 and further. To be brief I'm not going to lead you through all your evidence, you have heard the evidence here regarding the function that was held where I've already said that you were present, do you confirm that? MR BAKER Yes, Mr Chairman. MR VAN DER MERWE At this function you went to, can you just tell the Committee who you travelled with to go there? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, I drove Brig Schoon and Col de Kock to the function. MR VAN DER MERWE At the function did you take part in any discussions regarding a problem askari or person in Boputhatswana? Do you have any knowledge of those discussions? MR BAKER No, Mr Chairman. MR VAN DER MERWE When is the first time you were involved and asked to take part in any operation of this kind? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, the first time I heard mention of a problem was on the journey back, it was a discussion between Mr de Kock and Brig Schoon and Mr de Kock said words to the effect that why is it necessary for us to always have to sort out other people's problems. Brig Schoon's reply to that was simply that "It's the nature of our work, but we'll discuss it later", and the discussion did not continue on that vein. CHAIRPERSON At that stage you did not know that you are going to eventually participate. MR BAKER No, Mr Chairman. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chair. Now at some later stage you were informed by Col de Kock that you had to join Ras on an operation, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR VAN DER MERWE You then received a full briefing from Ras regarding the operation that had to be carried out. MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. As far as I can remember, Ras was already in the Western Transvaal, Boputhatswana and that I went to join him there. MR VAN DER MERWE And you confirm then also as per your application on page 71, that you commenced with the elimination of the cadre who you had in your possession. MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR VAN DER MERWE You never reported back to anyone in this regard, is that correct? MR BAKER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR VAN DER MERWE You assumed that Ras - well, you were informed by Ras later that he completed the report-back to de Kock. MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR VAN DER MERWE At the time that you were involved in this operation, your political objective, you confirm that you were under the impression that you had to protect the State's intelligence gathering capacity, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR VAN DER MERWE And that you acted under the instructions of Col de Kock, your Commander at that stage. MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR VAN DER MERWE Do you have anything else to add? MR BAKER No, Mr Chairman. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Baker, is it correct that there was a very close cooperation between the Bop Intelligence Services and the Security Police of the Republic of South Africa at the time? MR HATTINGH IS VIRTUALLY INAUDIBLE - PROBLEM WITH HIS MICROPHONE MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH You both considered the ANC and the PAC as your enemies. MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH And did the Bop Intelligence Services furnish you with information if it affected the security of the Republic of South Africa? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH And you did likewise for them. You did the same for them. MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH Do you also confirm that when you received this person from the ...(intervention) MR VAN DER MERWE I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman, my client's struggling to hear, may we just get earpieces for him please. MR HATTINGH ...(inaudible) Is it also - do you confirm the version of Mr Ras that when you received this person whom you subsequently killed, that he was handcuffed? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH And did that strike as strange or unusual? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, the fact that I'd already been informed by Mr Ras at that stage that he was to be eliminated, the fact that he was handcuffed went to prove that he wasn't coming for a visit. MR HATTINGH From whom did you receive this person? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, I've heard in evidence today, I was not sure who handed the person over, I've heard evidence that it was Mr Corrier, so I will concede ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What you're trying to say is you didn't know that person who handed him over. MR BAKER I couldn't remember who had handed him over to us. MR HATTINGH Can you perhaps assist us with the nature of the function that you attended that evening? Was it indeed a farewell party for Brig Schoon, or what is your recollection? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, my recollection of the function was that it was a normal function. Why I say that, we had - Western Transvaal gave Brig Schoon a farewell function at Nietverdiendt at a later stage and I considered the function as a, how should I say it, a cooperation-type function, people thanking each other for the cooperation they've given each other, type of thing. MR HATTINGH So your recollection is that the farewell party for Brig Schoon took place at a different venue, is that correct? MR BAKER At a different venue and at a later stage, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Mr Jansen. MR JANSEN Thank you, Chair. Jansen on record, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you're excused. MR BAKER Thank you, Mr Chairman. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Are there any other witnesses from the applicants' side? MR HATTINGH Not from our side, thank you Mr Chairman. MR JANSEN No, Chair. MR VAN DER MERWE No, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel, any witnesses? MS PATEL No, thank you Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So is that the end of the evidence? MS PATEL It appears so. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel, have you got any argument on this matter? MS PATEL No, Honourable Chairperson, I will leave it in your hands. CHAIRPERSON Fortunately it's not such a weighty thing to leave in my hands, so we don't need you people to argue. I'll reserve the decision on this matter, it will be handed down in due course. Is that the roll for the week, Ms Patel? MS PATEL It appears so, Honourable Chairperson, definitely. CHAIRPERSON If things weren't so bad I'd look forward to a cricket game now. Can't even do that. HEARING ADJOURNS