amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-06-13 BLOEMFONTEIN 2 BONGANI KHUMALO https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54250&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200613bl.htm CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, may I remind you that you are still under your previous oath, that is the oath you took yesterday? MR KHUMALO Thank you Sir. BONGANI KHUMALO (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. I think yesterday I finished leading the applicant before we adjourned. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Coetzer, any cross-examination? MR COETZER Indeed Mr Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR COETZER Mr Khumalo what does AZANYU stand for? MR KHUMALO It's Azania National Youth Unity. MR COETZER Explain again to us, when did you join the PAC? MR KHUMALO In 1991. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, is it correct that you testified yesterday that in 1990 you joined the PAC? MR KHUMALO My apologies Sir, I joined in 1990. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, is it also correct that yesterday you testified that Mr Makwara recruited you on the 23rd of February 1992 for the PAC? MR KHUMALO He did not recruit me on the 23rd, that is the day he commanded me. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, why did you then tell us that you met Mr Makwara the 23rd of February 1992 and that he recruited you there, not for APLA but for the PAC? MR KHUMALO Sir, the word recruit means he recruited me to the organisation. On the 23rd he commanded me, that was the day he gave me order. MR COETZER So is it correct then to conclude that on the 23rd of February he gave you the command after you were recruited in 1990? MR KHUMALO That is correct, Sir. MR COETZER Why, from 1990, there were no other instructions given to you concerning any other actions against white people or white farmers? MR KHUMALO He was the person known to me, he's the person I used to meet often. ADV SANDI Sorry, maybe one can put the question in a slightly different way. What activities were you involved in for your organisation AZANYU before February 1992? Actions, I'm talking about actions, operations, what did you do? Was this the first operation? MR KHUMALO This was the first operation Sir. ADV SANDI Right, thank you. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, why weren't you recruited before for operations? MR KHUMALO I do not know. Had the Commander been here he would respond quite positively to that question. MR COETZER Very well. Mr Khumalo when did you say you met Mr Makwara? MR KHUMALO On the 23rd when he commanded me. MR COETZER And that was also the only day when you saw Mr Makwara, is that correct? MR KHUMALO No, I knew him from the day he recruited me into the organisation. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, then you must explain. Your testimony was in your main evidence that you met Mr Makwara on the 23rd of February 1992. Furthermore you said that afterwards you wouldn't be able to meet with him because you were in prison, you were arrested. MR KHUMALO To clarify this, I last saw him on the 23rd. JUDGE DE JAGER He also testified initially that he was recruited by Makwara at the beginning of his evidence. MR COETZER I apologise. How often did you meet Mr Makwara? MR KHUMALO He used to come to Qwaqwa during weekends. Sometimes he would come for two consecutive weeks and two consecutive weeks he would not come. MR COETZER Before the 23rd of February, what did he tell you? What did he teach you concerning the organisation and their workings? Most of the times he taught me about the weaponry, the weapons and even our chatting was basically about the weapons and how he managed to reach the point where he was. CHAIRPERSON What did he teach you about the weapons? MR COETZER I explained yesterday that he taught me about weapons, the firearms and petrol bombs. CHAIRPERSON What type of firearms was he teaching you about? MR KHUMALO 9mm and an AK47. CHAIRPERSON What was happening to those? What did he teach you about those two? MR KHUMALO In other words he taught me how to dismantle, how to assemble them. CHAIRPERSON Would that also mean the 9mm, to teach you how to dismantle it and reassemble it? MR KHUMALO No, just the AK. CHAIRPERSON And what did he teach you about the 9mm? MR KHUMALO He taught me to shoot. Most of the times he taught me to shoot. CHAIRPERSON What type of 9mm weapon, firearm was that? MR KHUMALO There are many of them Sir, I can't remember but I do recall he taught me. CHAIRPERSON I don't follow. Did he teach you about several 9 millimetres, how to shoot with them, or what have you forgotten because there were many? I don't follow. MR KHUMALO He taught me with those guns but it was difficult for me to recall, this is the kind of an 9mm he used, but I recall he used 9mm to teach me and an AK47. CHAIRPERSON Were all these 9 millimetres the same? MR KHUMALO I did not expect that I would be asked about them one day, so I did not take a good look at them. My intention at that stage was just to know how to handle and use a gun. CHAIRPERSON Did he tell you the reason why he was on each day teaching you about a different 9mm? MR KHUMALO He just taught me to shoot and to aim at shooting. CHAIRPERSON How many parts did the AK47 have which you dismantled and assembled? MR KHUMALO I do not recall well now. CHAIRPERSON We would just require you to estimate, we don't want the precise number. You can't estimate either? Very well, you may proceed Mr Coetzer. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, did you only learn how to use a 9mm or did you also learn how to use a shotgun? MR KHUMALO No, Sir. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo did Mr Makwara ever show you the use or how to use any other weapons, apart from the AK47 and the 9mm? MR KHUMALO I wanted him to teach me about shooting, that was my main concern. I just wanted to know how to shoot and he taught that. I wasn't concerned about the others. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, you said Mr Makwara gave instructions to commit an act. Where and when did he give you this instruction? MR KHUMALO I was with him in Qwaqwa. MR COETZER And the date? MR KHUMALO Which date are you referring to Sir, when he was with me in Qwaqwa? CHAIRPERSON You have not referred to dates either, how could you be giving a date other than the 23rd when you received the instructions? That's the only date we know. MR KHUMALO My apologies. I did not understand the question. I met with him on the 23rd. It was in Qwaqwa when we met. CHAIRPERSON Precisely where in Qwaqwa? MR KHUMALO We were at Phuthaditjhaba. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Mr Coetzer. MR COETZER Mr Tshabalala, did Mr Makwara give you this instruction early the morning or late the afternoon? MR KHUMALO It was in the day when he gave me the order. JUDGE DE JAGER How late in the afternoon? If you can just give us the answer very quickly. Was it 10 o'clock, 12 o'clock, over lunch or what time of the day was this? MR KHUMALO It was around 11 o'clock when I met with him in Qwaqwa. MR COETZER Mr Tshabalala, did you see Mr Makwara at a later stage on that same day? MR KHUMALO I last saw him on that day. Sir, please, my name is Khumalo, I am not Tshabalala. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, in other words the last time you saw Mr Makwara was at 11 o'clock the morning when he gave you the instructions, after that you never saw him again, is that correct? MR KHUMALO That is correct. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, you then testified that Mr Makwara told you that he will use you in an operation but that Mr Makwara will choose the day and the place. How can you then receive the place and the date from him if you never saw him again afterwards? MR KHUMALO Sir, I did not catch your question. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, 11 o'clock that morning Mr Makwara tells you that he wants to recruit you to go and attack a white farm. He also tells you he will provide the date and the place where this attack will take place, but after 11 o'clock you do not see him again, so he hasn't told you where Mr Odendaal will be on Katdoring farm. Now you want to justify yourself by saying that Mr Makwara gave you the instruction to go and attack this specific persons. Where did you get your instructions from? MR KHUMALO You did not understand me well when I put my case. I mentioned that he said, because there are many farms and he said I will choose which one I prefer so that I can be able to carry forward this operation. We did not just meet and disperse without discussing anything. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, I put it to you and in your evidence-in-chief you said that Mr Makwara will choose the date and the place of the attack and not you. CHAIRPERSON No, it's not correct. It says the applicant ...(indistinct - interference with mike and then not talking into mike) evidence yesterday, you are mistaken there Mr Coetzer. MR COETZER In that case I apologise. Mr Khumalo, what was the specific wording of that instruction? MR KHUMALO He told me on that day, he said he wants me to go and perform a function where he would send me and he told me that I will go to any farm where I would be in a position to execute his order and he said I would choose a day myself to go. JUDGE DE JAGER Didn't he ask you whether you knew the Reitz area? MR KHUMALO He did ask me. JUDGE DE JAGER No, whether he knew the Reitz area. MR KHUMALO Yes, he asked me. JUDGE DE JAGER So did he direct you to go to Reitz, in the vicinity of Reitz? MR KHUMALO That is correct, because we were talking about those farms. JUDGE DE JAGER So you couldn't choose a farm at Bethlehem, for instance? MR KHUMALO It was quite far than Reitz. CHAIRPERSON No, the question is could you choose a farm in Bethlehem? Did you have a discretion, in other words? MR KHUMALO I don't understand you, Gentlemen. CHAIRPERSON When you spoke to Makwara, you just said to my brother here that you spoke about the Reitz area. Now the question is, because you had to choose the farm, could you have chosen a farm in Bethlehem, other than what Makwara was saying to you? Could you choose a farm anywhere else other than the area mentioned, or the area you were speaking about when you were discussing about these attacks? MR KHUMALO It would depend on our discussion Sir. CHAIRPERSON So you had no discretion where to go, but to go to Reitz? MR KHUMALO That is correct, Sir, that is the place that was under discussion. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Coetzer, you may proceed. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, did you have to reconnoitre the farm at first? MR KHUMALO I'd never been to that place, but I just knew it by passing. CHAIRPERSON The question is, did you go and identify the place? MR KHUMALO On the 24th when I was already there. CHAIRPERSON In other words, you only took one day and the next day you attacked? MR KHUMALO That is correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Mr Coetzer. MR COETZER The order from Mr Makwara, what did the order entail? What were you supposed to go and do at the farm? MR KHUMALO He said I should go and kill the boers. MR COETZER Just kill them? MR KHUMALO He said I should kill the boers and take anything that would be of benefit. MR COETZER Were you supposed to murder anybody specific? MR KHUMALO There was nobody specific that I should go and kill, it was just a command. MR COETZER Then why did you select this specific person? MR KHUMALO This was a vulnerable place to get in to fulfil the command. MR COETZER When did you discover this, that it was a vulnerable place? MR KHUMALO What is your question, Sir? MR COETZER When did you discover that it was a vulnerable place? MR KHUMALO When I met with Jabulani Tshabalala, because he is the person who provided me with information. MR COETZER What information did he provide to you and at what time? MR KHUMALO On the same day, the 24th and he knew the set-up on that house and he knew how many people lived there. MR COETZER Where did you meet Mr Tshabalala? MR KHUMALO I met with him at that farm in Reitz. MR COETZER So you went to the farm of Mr Odendaal beforehand specifically? MR KHUMALO That is correct, that is after I had received information. MR COETZER After you received what information? MR KHUMALO I knew that the owner was alone. I knew which days the sons were visiting. I knew that he was indoors at which times. I knew how many safes were in the house. All those things Tshabalala explained to me. JUDGE DE JAGER Why did you tell Tshabalala that you wanted to know when the sons would be visiting, how many safes there would be, did you give him any reason for wanting this information? MR KHUMALO He did not ask. I did not make him aware as to what I was going to do. CHAIRPERSON For how long had you known Tshabalala when you met with him on the 24th? MR KHUMALO I knew him on the same day, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And on the same day he volunteered all this information? MR KHUMALO Sir, I arrived during the day and in the evening we were sitting around a fire and we were chatting and I asked questions and he managed to answer some of those - to answer those questions. He is the person who referred me to a place where I would be given accommodation. CHAIRPERSON Where were you referred to to get accommodation? MR KHUMALO At Anna Magwa's place. CHAIRPERSON Where does she live? MR KHUMALO On that same farm. CHAIRPERSON Now why do you now call it her place because it's not her farm? MR KHUMALO It's true, that's not her farm, but the house that she lived in was her home, not the farm, it was on the farm. CHAIRPERSON Even with Anna Magwa, you knew her on the 24th? MR KHUMALO That is correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Coetzer, you may proceed. JUDGE DE JAGER Just in conjunction with that, Anna allowed you to stay at the house that evening? MR KHUMALO That is correct, Sir. JUDGE DE JAGER So you and Anna didn't have any problems? MR KHUMALO No problems at all Sir, on that day. JUDGE DE JAGER Is there any reason why Anna would have lied in Court regarding what took place? MR KHUMALO I believe there is a reason Sir. She was one of the State witnesses, there were witnesses of the State. JUDGE DE JAGER You recall that Anna said that you arrived there before the time, that you stayed there 2 to 3 days before the time, that you departed and that you then returned? MR KHUMALO Sir, many times when people turn State witnesses they say something, their own concoction of the story. I would not say where she got that story from. JUDGE DE JAGER What did you do after you stabbed Mr Odendaal with a knife? MR KHUMALO Petrus went back, he went and stood by the gate next to the fence. JUDGE DE JAGER Didn't you take him by the arm and take him back to the house? MR KHUMALO No, that is not so. JUDGE DE JAGER Weren't you afraid, knowing that he had seen everything that took place, weren't you afraid that he would go and call for help? MR KHUMALO I don't understand. Who would have gone to call other people? JUDGE DE JAGER Petrus. He saw how the man was being stabbed to death and you left him there outside, he could have run off and told others what had just taken place. MR KHUMALO He was scared and he just stood there and I called him. JUDGE DE JAGER And where did you call him to? MR KHUMALO I called him to the place where I stabbed this white man and I called him to - I wanted him to show me where the keys were. He told me that the keys were with him. JUDGE DE JAGER Did he give you the keys? MR KHUMALO He showed me the keys, he showed me where they were on his person. I actually called him to search this man. He didn't, he just showed me where the keys were, that they were in the back pocket. JUDGE DE JAGER Why couldn't you yourself have searched the man? He was already dead. MR KHUMALO Yes, he did not search him, he just pointed. He said at the back pocket and I did the searching. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you Mr Coetzer, you may proceed. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, you have just told us ... INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone. MR COETZER You have just told us that you went to the farm based upon information that you received regarding the vulnerability of the farm, is that correct? MR KHUMALO I went to that farm because it was the closest, that was due to the discussions with my Commander. In other words, I'm the person who went there after I have received information from Jabulani. MR COETZER Where did you meet Jabulani Tshabalala? MR KHUMALO I explained that I met him on the same farm in Reitz. MR COETZER But am I correct in understanding that you understood - that you went to that specific farm based upon information that you received from Tshabalala? MR KHUMALO At that time I had not received information about the house. CHAIRPERSON We don't follow. The legal representative said that you said just a minute or two ago, that you went to that farm because of information you received from Tshabalala. MR KHUMALO Yes, in other words I'm referring to the house now. I did not go to - not the house, not the farm, maybe we did not understand each other quite well on that issue. I was talking about the house. CHAIRPERSON Okay, start all over again, because I did not understand you. I understood you as the legal representative has. MR KHUMALO I explained that when I arrived at that farm in Reitz, I met Jabulani Tshabalala. Jabulani Tshabalala gave me the information about the farmhouse. I don't know whether it's clear now. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Mr Coetzer. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, he gave you the information that evening as he was seated by the fire, is that correct? MR KHUMALO Yes, we were now sitting down chatting and during the day I had also seen myself. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, did you need to procure weapons for the struggle? MR KHUMALO That is correct. MR COETZER What weapons did you obtain Mr Khumalo? MR KHUMALO Those I saw in the safe were these long guns and we normally call them pump guns. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, in other words you are referring to a shot gun? MR KHUMALO I don't understand what you mean. MR COETZER Was the weapon in the safe a shot gun? MR KHUMALO That is correct, they were long guns. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo you testified that you received a 9mm and an AK47 and when you were examined regarding shot guns, you said no. MR KHUMALO Sir the guns that I saw I had never seen before and I'd never used them for training, that's why I'm calling them pump guns. MR COETZER Is it correct that there were only two weapons in the safe? MR KHUMALO No, Sir, there were not only two. MR COETZER And that it was only a 303 and an air gun? MR KHUMALO I dispute that Sir, it was quite a number of guns. MR COETZER How can there be a number of weapons in the safe if the deceased possessed only two guns, namely a 303 and an air gun? MR KHUMALO Sir, I want to stress, what I saw was a number of guns, they were in two rows. There was a row at the back and there were others here to the front. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, the safe, describe it to us. If you open the door were the weapons packed on the left and the right sides, or from the back to the front? MR KHUMALO They were packed in a row, Sir. This safe is this big and they were in a row and there were others in the front row. MR COETZER Very well Mr Khumalo, you now have the ideal opportunity to obtain weapons for your organisation. Why did you take the smaller of the two weapons? JUDGE DE JAGER The smaller of the two, or the smaller of the lot because according to him there were at least two rows of weapons. Could he perhaps give us an indication of how many weapons there would have been in these two rows? 10, 20, 30, how many? MR KHUMALO If I'm estimating, there could have been 8 or 7. JUDGE DE JAGER Can you then answer the question of why you took only the air gun? MR KHUMALO I took a gun so that I could defend myself when getting out and I knew if I do escape and I manage to reach the township, I would not run with firearms that are not covered and maybe I could be summoned, the police could be summoned to come and arrest me, so that was my fear. CHAIRPERSON What about the instruction from Makwara that you should take anything that was to be of benefit to the struggle? What about your instruction now? Had you forgotten about it? MR KHUMALO I did not forget the instruction Sir, but what remains behind is, when you do something you check as to whether is this right when I approach it this way, is it wrong when I approach it this way? Now at that time I noticed that I do not have any chance to do anything. The accused had see Anna Magwa getting into the other house, so I noticed I did not have a chance, so I had to leave the farm running. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Mr Coetzer. JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Coetzer are there any other aspects that you wish to cover? MR COETZER Just one aspect. CHAIRPERSON Certainly. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo you were aware that the deceased was going to sell his farm - sold tobacco on his farm (correction). MR KHUMALO Yes, I learned on that day when we were chatting. MR COETZER What sort of work did you do at that stage? MR KHUMALO What kind of work was I doing? Are you referring, was I employed? I don't understand your question. MR COETZER Were you employed or unemployed? MR KHUMALO I was unemployed Sir. MR COETZER So you were looking for money? MR KHUMALO Are you telling me Sir, or are you asking me? CHAIRPERSON It is a question Sir, were you looking for money? It's a question, you can't make a mistake about that. MR KHUMALO No, I did not want money. ADV SANDI Yes, but on the same aspect, did you have any source of income? How did you manage to live if you were unemployed? MR KHUMALO My parents were sustaining me, Sir. ADV SANDI Were your parents employed? Were they working people? Did they have an income? MR KHUMALO My father was working. ADV SANDI What was the position about Daniel Makwara, was he employed? MR KHUMALO I think he was working Sir. ADV SANDI Where did he work? MR KHUMALO I do not recall. ADV SANDI I didn't get the last bit. Did you say you don't know remember where he was employed? MR KHUMALO He was an APLA member and I thought he was working. ADV SANDI What do you mean by that? Do you mean employed by APLA? MR KHUMALO I mean to be an APLA members, yes. ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Coetzer. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, so your primary motive that day was not politically oriented, you were looking for money? MR KHUMALO That is not correct, Sir. If ever we wanted money, we would have tried many other avenues and we did not ransack the house. CHAIRPERSON Wouldn't money have benefited your organisation? MR KHUMALO It would, Sir, had I laid my hands on it. CHAIRPERSON But your response to just the last question was that if you were looking for money, you would have ransacked the house and the instruction from Makwara, if I followed what you're saying is that you should get anything from the farmers ... JUDGE DE JAGER I beg your pardon, but the case you are handling is making a tremendous noise on the loudspeakers. CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry, Mr Khumalo, the instruction was that you should get anything that would benefit the organisation and your last response thereto was that you did not ransack the house. MR KHUMALO Sir we did not ransack the house. It is known that the money is kept in the safe. Now the question was I was looking for money, not I thought the question to me, I wanted money for personal use, not - so I was to kill the white people and take the important items. Had the money been there, I would have taken it for the benefit of the organisation. CHAIRPERSON What did you understand the important items would be that would benefit the organisation? MR KHUMALO Weapons, money, if a vehicle was close enough, I would have taken it so that I could transport the items that I had. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Mr Coetzer. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo did you have to report back to Mr Makwara at any stage? MR KHUMALO If the mission was well accomplished, I would have reported to him. MR COETZER Why didn't you report back to him? MR KHUMALO I was arrested on the 25th. I did not have a chance even at the Reitz police station to inform him about my arrest. ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Coetzer, if I could just come in here. What was the arrangement if there was any between yourself and your Commander? Where were you supposed to meet him and give him a report after this attack? MR KHUMALO He told me that we will meet during the weekend, in other words the day of the attack, the 25th, was chosen by me. Now in other words the Saturday, the coming Saturday we were going to meet and I was going to present to him the items repossessed. ADV SANDI Do you know if he subsequently became aware that you had been arrested? MR KHUMALO He subsequently knew because I was with him at Grootvlei. JUDGE DE JAGER Grootvlei is the jail, is that correct? MR KHUMALO That is correct. JUDGE DE JAGER But you didn't have an appointment to meet him at Grootvlei? MR KHUMALO Yes, that is correct, but it ended up being that way, we met there. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo please help me in this. You said the 23rd was the last time that you saw Mr Makwara. MR KHUMALO That was the last day to meet with him for the execution of the order he gave me but I never met him in connection with the incident afterwards. MR COETZER You said that you wanted to talk to Mr Makwara again, but because you were arrested you couldn't. MR KHUMALO Yes, he was still - he was outside, he was a free man, I was inside the prison. As I explained, I last saw him there and I met him in 1998 here in Grootvlei prison. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, were you out on bail? MR KHUMALO Yes, I was on bail. MR COETZER Couldn't you have met up with Mr Makwara at that stage? MR KHUMALO I did not get a chance, the right chance. I used to frequent Qwaqwa, but I did not frequent his place, Mutshabelo. ADV SANDI Didn't you think it was a matter of importance to meet him whilst you were out on bail and tell him things didn't go right and give him a report. Didn't you think that was important? MR KHUMALO It was important Sir, but I mentioned already that I - the treatment that I got at the station was not well, to put it clearly I was shot at and I was in pains, I even have the scar today. ADV SANDI Ja, but couldn't you send out messages to Makwara and say: "Please come and see me, I want to talk to you." MR KHUMALO I was not thinking well, Sir and I always thought of what the police told me. They told me that: "You are going to die. You're going to be sentenced to death. You are going to Pretoria." All these things combined with the family problems, these really worked on my mind. CHAIRPERSON Where were you shot at? MR KHUMALO May I show the Committee? CHAIRPERSON No, no, you cant tell me the anatomy of your body, not undress here, it's not a conducive place to do that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR KHUMALO I was shot next to the genitals, Sir. ADV SANDI Did the PAC or Makwara assist you to secure legal representation? MR KHUMALO I did not organise anybody from the organisation to represent me because I was told always that if you are a member of the organisation, they could kill you anytime. ADV SANDI Did the PAC or Makwara render any kind of assistance to you whilst you were going through the criminal trial? MR KHUMALO No, Sir and I think - I took the blame for what happened, so I did not involve them. ADV SANDI Did you require any kind of assistance? Did you need to be assisted with anything whilst you were going through the criminal trial? MR KHUMALO I did not expect any assistance from anybody and if the organisation had assisted me, I would have been known to be belonging to a certain organisation, so I was concerned with my life, so I did not ask from any assistance from anybody. CHAIRPERSON But didn't you say they told you you are going to die in Pretoria? You would be sent to Pretoria. Was life a matter to you because you were in any event going to die, did that matter? MR KHUMALO It troubled me a lot, Sir and it ended up being true. CHAIRPERSON Even if you told the PAC, you were still going to die according to what they told you, it did not matter whether the PAC knew or not, you were going to die, isn't it, according to what they told you? MR KHUMALO Yes, Sir, the police were telling me: "You are going to die" and some of them will say: "No, you won't die, there will be an appeal made", so all these troubled me and under such circumstances you don't think straight, you don't know what's going on. How would an appeal trouble you because you would probably be successful on appeal and save your life? Wouldn't that be so? MR KHUMALO Sir, I agree with you on what you are saying but at that time situations were not like now as we are sitting here talking. CHAIRPERSON Now you said earlier, if I may just continue Mr Coetzer, just this last question. You said you were given bail, you recall that? MR KHUMALO Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON How much was the bail fixed at? MR KHUMALO It was R1 000. CHAIRPERSON Who paid the bail money? MR KHUMALO It's my father. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may proceed Mr Coetzer. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, I will come back to the money. Approximately R300 was stolen from the house on that day. MR KHUMALO Sir, I don't know anything about money. MR COETZER Constable Mehi testified that you threw money over the fence after you were injured. How do you explain that? MR KHUMALO Mr Mehi is the person who shot at me and they jumped the fence, saying they were searching for the weapons and immediately all of a sudden he came up with money, that I did not know where it came from. There was no exhibit from me, now they were using money to pressurise me and I did not know anything about this money. JUDGE DE JAGER What happened to the purse that Tshabalala took? MR KHUMALO I did not check what happened to the purse, I ended up - the purse was in his hand, that's the last time I saw it. I don't know what happened thereafter. JUDGE DE JAGER But you were sent to get money and guns. Now you see this purse but you don't worry about what you've been ordered to do. You ignore your order to take money and guns. MR KHUMALO When I looked at the purse, Sir, I saw that was not enough money really and that was not enough money to even assist the organisation, that's why I did not even pay attention to the purse. JUDGE DE JAGER You saw it wasn't enough money. How much money was in the purse? MR KHUMALO Sir, by just looking at the purse, the purse will give an indication, that was - even when he had the purse, you could see that the purse had nothing. You cannot fit R40 000 in that purse. JUDGE DE JAGER But you were not ordered to get R40 000, you were ordered to get money for the organisation and even R1 000 or R2 000 or R100 could assist them. MR KHUMALO Sir, when I looked at the purse, I thought the purse did not have anything inside, that's why I did not pay too much attention to the purse. JUDGE DE JAGER No, Sir, you've told us a minute ago it didn't have enough money. Now it's no - it didn't have anything in the purse, what's the truth now? Thank you. MR KHUMALO When I say the purse did not have money, I'm not saying the purse did not have money at all, what I'm saying is that little amount that was inside, he had this purse in his hand and according to how he handled the purse, I did not see whether there was money inside, but the way he handled the purse, that to me was an indication that there was no money in the purse and one other thing, we wanted to run away at that same time. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzer. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo Tuesday the 24th of February you arrived on the farm for the first time. Makwara, Dladla and yourself testified in the court case that you've already arrived on the farm before the 24th. Why are you not telling the truth? MR KHUMALO Sir, what I said in Court was the way of defending myself. There was pressure from the accused, from the co-accused. CHAIRPERSON If I may, Mr Coetzer. You say you were - there was pressure that I think Jabulani Tshabalala was testifying against you, saying things which were not true against you. Am I hearing you to say that? MR KHUMALO He was saying things against me, Sir. CHAIRPERSON In Court, who was accused number 1? MR KHUMALO I was accused number 1. CHAIRPERSON And between you and Tshabalala, who testified first? MR KHUMALO It's me Sir. CHAIRPERSON And Tshabalala I take it testified after you? MR KHUMALO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So he pressurised you after you had testified? MR KHUMALO Yes, I had already testified and what he said in Court was considered. CHAIRPERSON And when you testified, you were not saying anything against him? MR KHUMALO I did not pressurise him on anything, Sir, I did not say anything against him and the focus was my running away and that I ended up being shot at. The killing of the farmer was my - it was placed upon my shoulders, but on many instances he put pressure on some of - on the issues. CHAIRPERSON When you testified, who did you say killed the farmer? You said you did. MR KHUMALO I said myself Sir. CHAIRPERSON And what did Tshabalala do? What did you say his role was? I say, according to your testimony, what was Tshabalala's role? MR KHUMALO The role played by Tshabalala was to show me where the key to the safe was and he did not do anything really and the purse that has been referred to, he had that. CHAIRPERSON What was your testimony in Court? Is that what you testified to in Court? MR KHUMALO I did not say it in full, Sir. CHAIRPERSON I don't follow. I'm asking you about what obtained in Court because you say Tshabalala was pressuring you and I'm asking you because you testified first, what did you say Tshabalala's role in this crime was? MR KHUMALO Sir, I only recall that he was pressurising me in Court and some of the things that I have mentioned have left my mind now. CHAIRPERSON Let's remind you, we've got the transcript before us. Page 34 and I will request your attorney to show it to you, starting from line 13. As you testified first you said it's Tshabalala who stabbed. MR KHUMALO Yes, I agree to that, I said it was Tshabalala who stabbed and this I said under those circumstances. CHAIRPERSON What circumstances, Sir? You said you testified under those circumstances, so I don't follow what circumstances you're referring to, so I'm asking you what circumstances were you saying that? MR KHUMALO This I mentioned to the police and these police took this statement that we gave them at the police station after we'd been arrested, they forwarded the statement. CHAIRPERSON Let me just tell you what I was asking you a few minutes back when I said this is the transcript of the Court. This is what you said personally, no other police man, about Tshabalala, that Tshabalala is the one who stabbed. That is your evidence before Court that Tshabalala stabbed, nothing about the police, taken verbatim as you were testifying. MR KHUMALO I ended up saying that Sir, according to the explanation I already gave. CHAIRPERSON I asked you yesterday whether Tshabalala was not also an accused. You said yes. How could he now pressurise you when he is charged as well with the same offence? You are both standing there charged with murder and he elects to take the side of the police when he's also charged of murder. I don't understand that, that is what I want you to make me understand because really I may not be upbeat about that. MR KHUMALO Gentlemen, that was the era of oppression and all these things happened while I was looking, nobody told me. I was arrested with him and I did not believe it when I saw him washing the cars, he was being sent to the shops and we were both arrested, we were charged with murdering a white person. I don't know what he was given when they were together, but that was evidence enough that he had friends among those police, that is why I'm saying he was pressurising me. CHAIRPERSON I understand that it was during the days of oppression, but was murder not committed in this instance or are they plucking it from somewhere that there wasn't murder and they just brought murder to you? Wasn't there murder on this particular day? MR KHUMALO It is true Sir, it was murder on that day. CHAIRPERSON And you are coming before us to give us the circumstances why there was murder and we have to understand that if you committed that crime of murder, it must have been political and further that we should understand that before we make any decision, we must be satisfied that you gave us all the particulars relating to that murder, in other words full disclosure, is that your understanding why you are here? MR KHUMALO Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Because if you don't admit your crime, we cannot even think of granting you amnesty, is that not so? MR KHUMALO That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Now we are asking you a simple question, that you testified first and said Tshabalala killed Mr Odendaal and you say no, Tshabalala was pressurising you when you were the first to utter the words that Tshabalala is the one who did it. Now tell us which is which now. Let's get it from you, according to you, let's forget Tshabalala for a moment. Who killed Mr Odendaal? MR KHUMALO It's me Sir, I killed Mr Odendaal. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MR KHUMALO Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed Mr Coetzer. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo you haven't explained to us why there were four people who said that you were on the farm before the 24th. Why do four people say that and now for the first time today you say that the first time you arrived on the farm was the 24th? MR KHUMALO Sir, those people do not even know me. Those four people I do not know, they do not know me. MR COETZER Mr Khumalo, you yourself said during the Court case that you were, you have been on the farm before the 24th, why are you changing your story now? MR KHUMALO Sir, I am not disputing what you are saying. Sir I was just responding to the questions and I was fighting for my defence, I was defending myself. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you Mr Coetzer, I do not think that we will get anything else. MR COETZER I have no further questions and thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETZER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Coetzer. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson, I have a few questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Mr Khumalo you testified yesterday that you joined the PAC in 1990, am I correct? MR KHUMALO That is correct. MS MTANGA In your application you stated that your political organisation was AZANYU and you mention nothing about the PAC. Can you explain why didn't you mention the PAC in your application? MR KHUMALO Truly speaking, I was not mentally stable when I ended up in that organisation. MS MTANGA Which organisation, Mr Khumalo? MR KHUMALO Where I am sitting now, just as it has been mentioned yesterday. MS MTANGA Mr Khumalo, I don't understand your answers. My first question to you was why did you not put the PAC in your application, why did you only mention AZANYU in your application, what's your answer to that? MR KHUMALO Oh, when I completed the forms I was in a hurry so I left some items not completely filled. MS MTANGA Can you tell this Committee what's the difference between AZANYU and PAC? MR KHUMALO PAC is an organisation, AZANYU, it's part of the organisation. MS MTANGA What part of the organisation, Mr Khumalo? MR KHUMALO It is the youth organisation. MS MTANGA Yesterday you gave evidence and you said AZANYU was the Task Force, what did you mean by that? MR KHUMALO Well I did not respond correctly, but I'm stressing my response yesterday and I was not mentally stable at that time. MS MTANGA At which time, Mr Khumalo? MR KHUMALO Yesterday when I was here. MS MTANGA So what are you saying today? Yesterday you said you were a member of the Task Force and you were asked what Task Force and you said AZANYU, what are you saying today? Are you saying you were not a member of AZANYU? MR KHUMALO I'm a member of AZANYU. MS MTANGA And I'm asking you, was AZANYU a Task Force as you testified yesterday? MR KHUMALO No, that is not correct. My apologies please. MS MTANGA What is a Task Force, Mr Khumalo? MR KHUMALO Task Force is also part of the PAC. It is also a youth organisation. My apologies please, yes, I'm being asked questions but many of the things I have forgotten, please bear with me Gentlemen. MS MTANGA Did Mr Makwara tell you that the Task Force is a youth organisation that is part of the PAC? Where did you get this? MR KHUMALO Well that was my recollection as I responded to questions and because so many things happened and that's why I'm saying I do not - I will not recall some of the things very well because it's been a long time ever since I came into contact with them. MS MTANGA Mr Khumalo you were with Mr Makwara from 1990 up until 1992 when you committed this offence and you joined the PAC in 1990 and do you want to tell us you don't know what the Task Force is if you were really a member of the PAC as you testified? MR KHUMALO It is the PAC soldiers, they fall under the APLA and they assist APLA with anything that is needed within the organisation, that is if I recall very well, but I believe so. MS MTANGA Why did you confuse the Task Force with AZANYU then? MR KHUMALO My apologies, I made a mistake. MS MTANGA Who was the President of the PAC in 1992, Mr Khumalo? MR KHUMALO If I recall well it was Clarence Makwetu. MS MTANGA And who was the first President of the PAC? MR KHUMALO Just bear with me for a minute. MS MTANGA Mr Khumalo while you think that answer, can I ask you my next question? Who was the Deputy President of the PAC in 1992? Do you know who was ... ja, carry on. MR KHUMALO I only have Clarence Makwetu's name in my memory, I'm sorry for those that I cannot recall their names. MS MTANGA You were a member of the PAC in the Free State. Can you give me the original Chairperson in the Free State in 1992? MR KHUMALO I don't quite understand your question. MS MTANGA I am saying to you you were a member of the PAC in the Free State region and I'm asking you, who was the original Chairperson of the PAC in the Free State. MR KHUMALO I have forgotten, I'm sorry. MS MTANGA Mr Khumalo I would like to make you aware that the questions that I'm asking you, it's political education, they form part of political education that you receive as a PAC member especially if you get recruited into the Task Force this is basic information that you should know about the PAC and you don't know. What do you say to this? MR KHUMALO Ma'am yes, but I have explained that, I don't know how should I put this really, let me put it this way. I was sentenced to death and ever since that I can't think straight, that is why I'm still having problems even at this stage. MS MTANGA Finally Mr Khumalo I want to put it to you that I will argue that you are a criminal trying to hijack the amnesty process and this offence was never committed for the political benefit of the PAC as you have testified here today and yesterday. What do you say to this? MR KHUMALO I'm not a criminal, but I explained the problem here and the problem that I find myself in. MS MTANGA I have no further questions, Chairperson, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Just one before you do, Mr Mbandazayo. In your application, question 9(b), did you know the person you killed because what I'm reading here is that you say it's, I want to give you the full names, Mr Wessels Cronje Odendaal. Did you know that the person you killed was Mr Wessels Cronje Odendaal? MR KHUMALO I knew him only as Wessels at that time. The person who provided me with information about his house, told me that. CHAIRPERSON And despite the death sentence, you remembered that? MR KHUMALO Yes Sir that he was Odendaal and the others, no, I only learned about them in the documents, that was only then that I managed to know his full names. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Khumalo. Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo. ADV SANDI Sorry maybe I can ask just one question before Mr Mbandazayo. I hear you keep on saying yesterday when you gave your evidence-in-chief you were mentally unstable and as a result you could not think straight, but did you tell Mr Mbandazayo, you lawyer yesterday or at any stage thereafter? Does he know about this? Did you tell him about this problem you have? MR KHUMALO He does not know, really. ADV SANDI Why didn't you tell him if you had such a problem? MR KHUMALO When I took the stand I tried not to be difficult. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR KHUMALO Thank you Sir. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I don't think any re-examination now will take our case any further. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Is that you case Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO That's the case for the applicant, Chairperson, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR COETZER We will not be calling any witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA No witnesses Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, could you briefly tell us why we should grant amnesty? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson. MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT Chairperson, without wasting the time of the Committee and everybody here, it's my submission that the evidence which has been placed before the Committee is enough for the Committee to reach and fair and a just decision in this matter. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Coetzer, any argument? MR COETZER IN ARGUMENT Chairperson, Committee Members, suffice to say that one should not hide behind another when it comes to the responsibility for one's actions. One cannot expect of a political organisation to carry the blame for deeds that one committed. In the light of this, I leave the decision in the hands of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Coetzer. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA Chairperson, I will also be very brief. MS MTANGA IN ARGUMENT It is my submission to this Committee today that Mr Khumalo committed this offence for personal gain. It was in his evidence that he never accounted for the items they robbed from the Odendaal family, he never accounted for these to either Mr Makwara or to any other member of the PAC and he never gave evidence as to what happened to these items and one can only conclude that Mr Khumalo kept whatever they obtained for themselves, that is Khumalo and Tshabalala. Secondly I also would like to submit that the failure by Mr Khumalo to answer very basic questions about his political organisation that he had been a member for more than two years at the time he committed this offence, clearly shows that Mr Khumalo has lied about his political affiliation. He was never a member of the PAC and he committed this offence as a criminal, not as a political person, Finally he has not given full disclosure in regard to what was obtained from the Odendaal family. It's clear from the evidence from Court that money was taken from the family and the applicant here today denies that he knew money was taken, despite evidence showing that money was found in his possession at the time he was arrested. That is all I'd like to say, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Mbandazayo, obviously you do not have a reply. MR MBANDAZAYO None, Chairperson. NO REPLY BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Khumalo, thank you very much. What is going to happen, the three of us here are going to sit down, decide and after we have made our decision it will be written, because the Act requires us, the Act that brought us here, the Act that has brought our existence actually, requires us that the decision that we give should be in writing. Your attorney, Mr Mbandazayo, will be provided with a copy and another copy will come to you, do you understand that? We will try our utmost that we don't delay it unduly. We will do everything in our power to give the decision as soon as possible, but it has to be written. The same here, Mr Coetzer, we've got to give a written decision and it shall be sent to you shortly, so in other words what I'm saying is that our decision is reserved. We thank you for having come, Mr Khumalo. I notice it's just about ten to eleven and I hope Mr Kachelhoffer it will be appropriate to have tea at this time. Thank you. We shall adjourn for tea for 15 minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS