amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-06-13 BLOEMFONTEIN 2 SAMSON TUIS AM5904/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54252&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200613bl.htm CHAIRPERSON I think we're ready to hear the next application. I see before me Mr Mbandazayo, it's the application of Samson Zongizile Tuis. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson. Correct Chairperson, that's the application ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously) CHAIRPERSON I think let's do the formalities and place ourselves on record. I am Motata from the Transvaal Provincial Division. I will be chairing these hearings. On my right I have my brother Judge de Jager, also from the Transvaal Provincial Division. On my left I have our colleague, Adv Sandi, from East London, Eastern Cape Province. Will the legal representatives do the same? I will start with the legal representative of the applicant. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo and I'm representing the applicants in this matter. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. MR COETZER Honourable Chair and Members of the Committee, I am Mr Coetzer from Vermaak and Denis a legal firm in Bloemfontein and I am appearing on behalf of the victims in this matter and I would like to address the Tribunal after everyone has been introduced. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Coetzer. Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson, I'm Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, in which language is your client going to testify? MR MBANDAZAYO Sotho, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) I believe somebody wants to say something from my left. MR COETZER Honourable Chairperson, I thank you for granting me the opportunity. Before we commence the proceedings there are two points that I would like to address you on. I have been given instruction on behalf of the TRC to appear for the victims in this matter. However, no victims have arrived and I do not have any further instructions, therefore I would like to request to be excused from these proceedings, but I would like to address you on the following matter which I also have before the Commission. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. MR COETZER Thank you Chair. Chairperson, I have also received instructions in the application of Mabanu Ernest Malunga Pudumo, to represent the victims. Who has arrived is Jane Tjali, a victim. The applicant has however not applied for the incident in which she was involved because they were already found innocent in the criminal trial and thus she has been incorrectly notified that she should be present today. Therefore, there are no further instructions from any other victims to take this matter any further and I would then request that you excuse me from these proceedings. I will however provide you with my contact number at my office, so that you can contact me if necessary. As it pleases you. And then Jane Tjali, I would also request that she be excused because she is not involved in the proceedings then. As it pleases you. JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Coetzer, I would just like to know from you, you have spoken to Jane Tjali. According to your judgement as you discussed the matter, they may have been found not guilty then, but would you say that she was the victim of a crime which was committed with a political objective, or was it simply a regular crime? MR COETZER Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I would not be able to make any statement regarding that. It would appear from the documents in my possession, that it was simply a regular crime and it would appear that there was no political objective involved. I know that is to the detriment of my client at this stage, but that is how it appears to me from the documents. As it pleases the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Coetzer for informing us about the instructions you received and the status of those instructions at this juncture, that no victims have come forward and quite honestly, we don't see any cogent reason why we should detain you here and not recuse you. You are well recused, Sir. Thank you very much for having attended and heeded the instructions from the TRC, they are very valued and your co-operation is highly appreciated. MR COETZER Chairperson, Members of the Committee, I thank you. SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members. MR TUIS For a moment, I want to make a request to the Committee. This is my request. We filled the applications for the amnesty and we were three, with people whom I committed this operation with. Those forms were returned and then when they returned, I was the only one who received receipt of acknowledgement, the third one appeared as a person who would appear here as a witness, so I'm asking as to whether, Chairperson, how are you going to deal with this matter? CHAIRPERSON Firstly, Mr Tuis, what happens in this process is that we regard every applicant individually. Firstly. And we are enjoined by the Act that if the incident which we deal with, relates to more than one person, we shall have all persons who were involved in that incident. I am aware of what you are saying and I made inquiries last week Thursday at our offices in Cape Town because I was there at present and they told me that they cannot find any of those applications because I wanted them all and they could find none. The result is that you come before us and we have your application. We shall hear you and the one who comes as a witness, we shall deal with that problem when we get to that witness of yours, is that okay? Because it's not your personal problem, is it, that their forms have not been received? MR TUIS No, Chairperson, it's not my problem, it was just a question. CHAIRPERSON And looking at my documentation, the contents of my documentation here says there is an application, I don't know whom it relates to, I can find that out quickly, is that that one has been refused and that has been referred as the one on page 19, Mologwai, that one has been considered and refused, but it is still in our possession here. I don't know when that was heard and refused. Look at page 15 Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson I'm looking at page 15. CHAIRPERSON And I'm also looking at the index. It will come as 4, saying application of refused co-applicant, do you have that? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But to nip that problem in the bud, let's ask Ms Mtanga what the status is. MS MTANGA Chairperson, the status of the application of Mr Mologwai is that it was refused and the letter was sent to the prison where he is and it has been merely filed in this bundle for the Committee's reference on the facts that were submitted by Mr Mologwai. CHAIRPERSON Do you understand about Mologwai? MR TUIS I don't understand, Chairperson. A form appeared in regard to Mr Mologwai. What did not appear is ...(indistinct) application. The prison authorities told us that they found Mologwai's application but they could not find Peleku's application. I don't understand clearly what is happening. CHAIRPERSON Please repeat yourself. MR TUIS The form which was found, I was told it was Mologwai's application form. CHAIRPERSON Told by whom? MR TUIS It is the person who was arranging our papers in prison. CHAIRPERSON Yes, proceed. MR TUIS Peleku's application was not found, he appears as a witness, not as an applicant in this incident because we were three. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I'm saying I did make those inquiries and they said there is no such form with our offices, in other words what it meant is that it was not received. MR TUIS It's okay, Chairperson. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, just to add, I'm not sure whether this application which is here relates to the same incident, I don't know. CHAIRPERSON You mean having regard to the application of Mr Mologwai? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson, I don't know whether it relates to the same, this incident which Mr Tuis is applying for, when I looked at it, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Because the first thing we notice is that the incident of robbery and housebreaking, which Mr Mologwai is applying for, occurred on the 10th of the 10th, or the 1st of the 1st, I'm not very certain, but the year is definitely 1993 and the one Mr Tuis now is applying for is of the 3rd February 1993, which is murder and robbery. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chair and furthermore it happened at Brandfort, this one is at Clearspruit in Rogaie at Mount Pleasant farm and also when I look at the people who were involved are different from Mr Tuis, it does not come on the picture with regard to Mr Mologwai's application. He was involved with Paulus Makuvu and Jackson Ntozini and one person was injured in this one, Jacomina van Tonder and this was two people were killed, two whites were killed, that's why I'm saying Chairperson I'm not sure whether ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Why I made inquiries Mr Mbandazayo is that if we look at page 6, 2.3, this is what Mr Tuis says when he was asked for further particulars "The persons who were with me during the operation, other than Dlogodlo who gave orders, were Petrus Pitso Peleo who is in Groenpunt Correctional Services and Macdonal Mologwai, also known as Thebogo who is also in Groenpunt prison." According to them they did apply for amnesty, but they have not heard anything up to now. What is not clear from what you are saying Mr Tuis is that it was the same incident, merely that they have applied for amnesty but whether it's of the same incident, you are not also clear about that and I did research through Ms Mtanga on that basis. You applied whilst in prison, wasn't that? MR TUIS Correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you see their applications handed in? Did you see their applications, that is of Peleo and Mologwai. Well let's talk of Peleo. MR TUIS Adv Mothembo helped us to fill the application forms and we were three in 1995 in prison. We were three when we were preparing our application. CHAIRPERSON And who was to submit those applications? MR TUIS I did not know, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps let me ask you this way. After Mr Mothembo assisted you, to whom did you give those applications? MR TUIS He's the one who filled these forms on our behalf, then he informed us that he will hand them over. CHAIRPERSON So it compounds the problem, isn't it so? Because we definitely have heard of Mologwai and yourselves. We don't have that one, we've cross-checked on Thursday when I was first given these documents to read. MR TUIS I explained that I was informed that Mologwai's application is there, then how do you work if Mr Peleo's application does not appear? He appears as a witness in this incident. CHAIRPERSON We will hear him as a witness and I suggest to you and you suggest to Mr Peleo that he once again takes it up with the Amnesty Committee, but it is not for you to do so because your application is before us. Do you follow? MR TUIS It's okay Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ja, as an applicant you cannot speak on behalf of the other applicant about his application, you speak about your application. MR TUIS I'm not saying I was speaking on their behalf, I'm just saying we were three, therefore I was just asking about that, not that I was speaking on his behalf. It was just a question to get clarity on the issue. It is clear now, it will come when it comes, therefore I will go on with my own application. CHAIRPERSON Let me inform you this way, that I have a discretion. Let me hear you and because now we all know that the application is not before us, this Committee or this Panel will take a decision after we have heard you, how we take it forward with Mr Peleo after he has also testified on your behalf. Okay? I have that discretion. Mr Mbandazayo will explain further to you what I mean by that discretion. Are we ready to proceed Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson. Chairperson, for purposes of this hearing, I will use the affidavit at page 6. EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Tuis, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents? MR TUIS Explain to me what is an affidavit, please explain to me what an affidavit is. I would not say yes, I agree to the contents and yet not understanding what an affidavit is. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tuis, I'll request your legal representative to show you page 8, 9, 10, 11 up to 14, that is the hand-written portion of what is contained on page 6. Do you see that? And if you look at page 13 there's your signature there, is that your signature rather? MR TUIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON And this was done before a Commissioner of Oaths, in other words like I did to you now and say you swear that what you would tell us is the truth and nothing else is the truth and what the Commissioner of Oaths would do is to say to you: "Are the contents of this affidavit true and have you read through them?" MR TUIS That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON That's how it happened when you wrote these pages or whoever wrote them for you and you signed them? MR TUIS Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON That constitutes what we call an affidavit and if you can have regard to page 8, you'll see right at the top, it's written affidavit, that is the contents of this now for easy reference, Mr Mbandazayo is going to page 6, which is typed, so that we don't further diminish the value of my glasses by going through this handwriting. MR TUIS Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON So what is contained in page 6 is word for word of the hand-written, do you agree with that, or at least believe me because I've looked at it closely and hence it's put in this bundle for everybody to see and read if it corresponds, so it's word for word, I give you my word for that. Okay? MR TUIS I believe you Sir. CHAIRPERSON So you know what an affidavit is now, I believe? MR TUIS I now know what an affidavit is. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Tuis, do you still remember then making this affidavit or statement to the member of the TRC investigating unit? MR TUIS Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO So do you confirm that this then affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents? MR TUIS Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, I will begin to read the affidavit. The affidavit reads thus "I, Samson Zongizile Tuis, c/o Groenpunt Correctional Services, Registration 93143109, do hereby state under oath and say I am the applicant in this matter. I wish to state further to my application and in answer to a request for further particulars as follows: The people I killed were two elderly white females, whose names I now forget. They were living in a farm in Brandfort, outside town, near a black man's township. The person who identified and informed us that the victims were legitimate targets for operation was Commander Dlogodlo. Commander Dlogodlo did not furnish us with these correct names, this name was just a code name or nickname for the organisation. I did not know his physical address. The person that I hope should know him is Lebohang ...(indistinct) of 6883, Extension 8, Gamaneng, Bloemfontein. I also hope that William, Willie Nkosana of 11269 Lebona Street, Mozoneng, Klumande Township, Bloemfontein, knows him. He's now a soldier in Pretoria, but the exact address of employment is unknown to me. The persons who were with me during the operation other than Dlogodlo who gave orders were Petros Peter Peleo who is in Groenpunt Correctional Services and Mulduran Mologwai, alias Thebogo, who is also in Groenpunt prison. According to them they did apply for amnesty but they have not heard anything up to now. The operation was planned firstly during the 10th of January, whilst I was still serving two years sentence in Ramkraal prison in Bloemfontein. Dlogodlo came as a visitor and found me working outside at the white's homes. When he came to me, I was going to be released on the 21st January 1993. He ordered me not to go anywhere on the 3rd of January 1993 after my release. On the 3rd of February, after my release. On the 3rd of February 1993, Dlogodlo came with Tabiso Makwala, Pitso Peleo and Macdonald Mologwai. They arrived, driving in a private car. They took me to Bloemfontein, near the ...(indistinct) bar. We sat in the car outside on a parking. It is where Dlogodlo gave us instructions to kill the whites in Free State, take the money if it is enough, bring guns and vehicles. It was here that the operation was decided upon and Pitso also identified it as a farm he had knowledge about. After these discussions, we returned to Bloemfontein. I, Pitso and Macdonald proceeded to this farm. We left about 7 o'clock in the evening, each armed with a Rambo knife, dagger type. We arrived at the farm about 11 in the evening. We jumped over the fence and proceeded to the mielie plantation towards the house. Pitso produced a handgun and I then realised that he had a firearm. He led us until we found an open window through which we entered the house. We searched through the rooms but did not find anyone. On the extreme right we saw light and went to peep. We saw a white woman in bed reading her Bible. We entered, grabbed her, tied her hands, demanded for money. She denied any money being in the house. Pitso stabbed on her and instructed us to search in further rooms and kill whoever we find. He suggested that the first female will produce the money. He also produced a firearm for her as a threat. We searched another room and found her mother. We attacked and killed her. After killing her, we brought her to her daughter so that she could see that we have killed her. This victim cried and started to hand a firearm by telling us where we could find it. The firearm was a revolver with 6 bullets. She also pointed to a bank bag with some silver coins. She also handed R30 and car keys. She was also killed by stabbing her several times. The old lady was also stabbed several times. We dragged the old lady back into her room and let her down. We took the items with us, got into an Isuzu van and I drove it away. We left Pitso on the way, gave some share and I drove on with Macdonald. I was arrested on the 18th of February with Thebogo. Pitso was arrested subsequently. The vehicle was left near a flat at Tempi, where Dlogodlo had instructed us to leave it. I heard over the news on the 4th of February that the vehicle had been recovered. We used the money that we got from the victim. When I heard about this, I alerted Pitso who also informed me that he had heard about it. He advised me to destroy a tape cassette that I had taken from the vehicle. I did destroy it. That is all I can say. I know and I understand the contents of this statement. I have no objection to taking the prescribed oath. I consider the prescribed oath to be binding on my conscience." Now Mr Tuis, I've read your statement for the record for the Commission. Now I would like - do you want to add anything to this statement? MR TUIS Yes. There is something I want to add. The people who arrived when I was at Stofberg after I received a document requiring further particulars was Mr Mbatha. He was together with another one. These people were speaking Zulu, they do not understand Sotho and some of the things here in the statement, they did not put them according to the way I wanted them to be put. I was actually trying to explain to them in Xhosa, but I'm now becoming aware that in this statement there is somewhere where they wrote something not mentioned by me, even though it's not bad, but they did not put it straight as I told it to them. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, can you mention those things you think that they were not put the way you wanted them to be put? MR TUIS You see I was here in Bloemfontein, I was never in Brandfort. I was out on duty. You see the situation is, you are taken as prisoners and you are taken to different places. The white people will take you and they will make use of your services to cleaning town and so on, so I was working at Tempe, it was on the 10th of January 1993, between the 10th and the 16th of January. Pitso arrived when I was at work in Tempe. He was together with Tabiso and Dlogodlo. He called me and I went ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Tuis, just hold it for a second, let me address your legal representative. Mr Mbandazayo, instead of getting how the story was told, let's get it paragraph for paragraph. Does he agree with paragraph 1? Just like that and where it's not clear, which paragraph it's not. I think we will make better progress in that fashion. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson. Thank you. Let me start, Chairperson, then at paragraph 2.1. "The people I killed were two elderly white females whose names now I've forgotten. They were living in a farm in Brandfort outside town, near a black township." Is that correct? MR TUIS Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO "The person who identified and informed us that the victims were legitimate targets for our operation was Commander Dlogodlo." Is that correct? MR TUIS No. Dlogodlo told us that we should kill the farmers in the Free State and we were at 1910 when he told us this and Pitso said: "Yes, there is a target that I know, we can start with that today". That day was the 3rd of February 1993. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps let's put it in perspective. To which political organisation did you belong? MR TUIS I was a member of AZANYU. CHAIRPERSON Since when? MR TUIS From 1990. CHAIRPERSON Where did you join AZANYU? MR TUIS I joined AZANYU in 1990 here in Bloemfontein. CHAIRPERSON Bloemfontein is wide. Where in Bloemfontein? MR TUIS In an area called Tinpoint. CHAIRPERSON In your application form you speak of a Task Force, what were you saying - what were you referring to when you say, "Political organisation - Task Force"? What did you want to convey by Task Force? MR TUIS On the issue of the Task Force, I explained already that these people were speaking Zulu, they did not understand Sotho and I told them at some instances I recall I had to make them rub off what I told them and I said: "No listen, you have to write this one." I told them that I joined AZANYU. CHAIRPERSON No, I'm just speaking of your application form now, I'm just speaking of your application form. Let Mr Mbandazayo show you what I'm talking about. You see 7 (a) it is written Task Force and something else, on towards the end, right-hand side has been rubbed off, you see that? MR TUIS Yes, I'm aware of that. CHAIRPERSON And what did you want to convey by Task Force? That's what I'm asking you. MR TUIS I wanted to explain my shift from the Youth Organisation into the much bigger organisation. CHAIRPERSON I don't follow. Your shift from? MR TUIS I can't hear you Sir. CHAIRPERSON I'm saying here they asked you with regard to the organisation and you say, you have written here Task Force, I want to know from you, what is it that you wanted to convey by the use of the word Task Force? They asked you the organisation in which you belonged. MR TUIS Yes, Sir, I'm explaining that I wanted to tell you how did it happen that I moved from the Youth Organisation into the Task Force. They did not ask me anything, they only asked me as to the Force, where were you in the Force and then I explained to them. CHAIRPERSON You are repeating it again Sir. 7(b), you repeated that. They asked you, State the capacity in which you served in the organisation and then again you wrote Task Force. MR TUIS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON They asked you, were you an officer or what were you? You say here: "I was a Task Force." MR TUIS Yes, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON Now what is the difference, because you wanted to tell them that you were in this organisation and you moved from that organisation to the next one. MR TUIS No, I wanted to give them full details, Sir. CHAIRPERSON In other words you're saying the organisation that you belonged to was AZANYU? MR TUIS Yes, I was in AZANYU and I was recruited into the Task Force. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tuis, what would be the difference then if I were to say to you: "I am a member of the Pan Africanist Congress" and they ask me the next question: "What was your position in there?" and then I respond by saying I was the member of the Azanian People's Liberation Army, is there a difference there? MR TUIS No there wouldn't be a difference. CHAIRPERSON Because it's one organisation? MR TUIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON The others are political leaders and the others are the fighters? MR TUIS Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Now what I want you to explain for me is, you say you wanted to give them the full details but you only wrote Task Force. MR TUIS No, they did not want to know anything about other organisations, they only asked me about this Task Force and I gave them this Task Force. CHAIRPERSON Carry on Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, in view of the fact that you have already asked, I was going to come to that, can I follow where you have left, because I was going to ask him about organisation and all such things. CHAIRPERSON I said that because you apparently owe me. MR MBANDAZAYO So that I can also follow it up Chairperson, I wanted to finish the statement, but in view of the fact that you have started with this point. You indicated to the Chairperson that you joined the organisation AZANYU in 1990. MR TUIS Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, can you tell the Committee, when you were in prison you were visited by Dlogodlo, what sentence were you serving? MR TUIS It was 2 years sentence, Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO When were you sentenced? MR TUIS I was sentenced in October of 1991. MR MBANDAZAYO What you were - did the sentence you were serving had anything to do with politics, that is the offence you committed before you were sentenced, had anything to do with politics? MR TUIS No, it was not connected to politics. I ended up in there because I was inquisitive. The car that I was found in was hijacked by my friends and I met them in town and I got in the car and we went for a nice time, not aware that this was a stolen car. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay, thank you, I just wondered whether it has to do ... At that time when you were arrested for this offence, did you know Dlogodlo before that? MR TUIS I did not know him Sir. I first knew him in 1993 on the 10th of January, the 10th or the 16th of January. He arrived with Pitso to me and Tabiso, I was at work at Tempe, that's when I first knew him. He came to ask me whether ... MR MBANDAZAYO Now, you were in prison at that time, am I correct? MR TUIS Yes, I was a prisoner at that time. MR MBANDAZAYO Now the place in which they visited you, were you not at work and you were guarded there, am I correct? MR TUIS I was at work, I was guarded, that's correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Were you allowed visitors at that time? MR TUIS I was not allowed to have visitors, but the way they arrived, they were driving in a private car and I requested the person who was guarding me, I said to him: "There's my brother, can I please have a word with him?" And he allowed me. I got into the car, I spoke to him and he asked me when was my release. I told him when I was going to be released and he told me not to go anywhere, they will arrive. MR MBANDAZAYO And Dlogodlo did not know you and you did not know him? MR TUIS That is correct. Pitso introduced me to him. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, can I then go back to the statement? Now, I would like to summarise the statement. So is it correct that Dlogodlo visited you whilst you were still in custody and told you that you should not go anywhere on the 3rd, you mentioned the 3rd of February, am I correct? MR TUIS Yes. I was not in prison when he came to me. He did not go to the prison, he came with Pitso and Tabiso, I was at work at Tempe. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, we understand that but you were still in custody at that time, whether you were not inside the building or the prison walls, but you were still in custody, that's what I'm trying to say. Now can you tell the Committee did you mention the name - who's William Verulam Nkosana? MR TUIS He's a member of the PAC. MR MBANDAZAYO Lebohang May? MR TUIS He's a member of APLA. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, did they know about this operation? MR TUIS Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO When did you meet them before this operation? MR TUIS May and Tabiso trained around the 1990's and taught me how to handle the firearm, that was in January. He was together with Tabiso when he taught me how to handle a firearm. He did not know about the attack, the persons who knew about the attack were Tabiso and Dlogodlo. MR MBANDAZAYO Let's go to paragraph 2.4. Now is it correct that on the 3rd of February Dlogodlo came with Tabiso, Makwala, Pitso and Donald Mologwai to you? MR TUIS At home, yes and I was release, I was at home, they arrived at home, yes. MR MBANDAZAYO And they were driving a private car? MR TUIS Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO They took you to Bloemfontein at 1910 Bar, is it correct? MR TUIS Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO You sat outside in a car outside a parking - on a parking? MR TUIS We were inside a car parked at 1910 Bar. MR MBANDAZAYO Is it correct that you swear Dlogodlo gave you instruction to kill the whites in Free State, take the money if it is enough, bring guns and weapons? MR TUIS That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee at what time was it? MR TUIS I think it was around 11 o'clock Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO In the day, in the morning. MR TUIS That's correct, in the day. MR MBANDAZAYO And is it correct that it was there that the operation was decided upon and Pitso also identified it as a farm he had knowledge about? MR TUIS Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO And after this discussion, you returned to Bloemfontein? MR TUIS Who went back to Bloemfontein Sir? MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. What happened after the discussion? MR TUIS After being given an instruction and after Pitso told us that there's an identified farm, Pitso said yes we have a place and we were ordered to go and find the guns and myself and Tabiso went to hike and we went for Brandfort. MR MBANDAZAYO You left about 7 o'clock, each of you was armed with a Rambo knife, dagger type, is it correct? MR TUIS We arrived in Brandfort, we went to Pitso's home. Pitso took three knives, big knives. After that we went to his friend's home, we bought dagga and we went to sit by the curve on the tarred road. We took our weapons, we hid them. I'm sorry, I'll try to speak a bit slow. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, continue. MR TUIS After buying dagga, we went to sit next to the tarred road and we took the weapons, we placed them a little bit further and we sat down. There were trees. We prepared our dagga and we smoked. When it was dark, we left for that farm. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay and you arrived at the farm about 11 o'clock? MR TUIS Around 10 o'clock. MR MBANDAZAYO You jumped over the fence and proceeded to the mielie plantation, towards the house? MR TUIS We jumped the fence, we walked in the mielie field and we sat next to the cow shed and the farm house was quite distance. We did not go straight to the farm house, we sat next to the cow shed and then Pitso gave us dagga again, he said we should smoke. We did smoke and then thereafter we left the cow shed and then we proceeded to the house. We moved around the house just inspecting the house. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. Pitso produced a handgun and you then realised that he had a firearm? MR TUIS You see I want to give you this statement. Yes, this is the right statement but the person who wrote the statement ... MR MBANDAZAYO I agree with you, but I want to confirm whether there was a gun or not, did Pitso have a gun or not? MR TUIS Yes, he had a gun. MR MBANDAZAYO Is it correct that you found an open window through which you entered the house? MR TUIS Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO Is it correct that you searched the rooms but you did not find anyone? MR TUIS Yes, two of the rooms, but two had people. MR MBANDAZAYO You saw in one of the rooms a white woman, in a bed, reading her Bible? MR TUIS Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO You entered, you grabbed her and tied her hands and demanded money? MR TUIS Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO She denied that there is money in the house, is it correct? MR TUIS She did not deny. We went into this room and Pitso went into the other room. When we grabbed this woman in this room, I was with Thebogo and she screamed and we grabbed her, we tied her and when I left this room, that was with Thebogo and I went to the other room to look for Pitso, Pitso said: "Gentlemen, do the work" and we killed this woman and then we searched in the room with no hurry. MR MBANDAZAYO And you searched the room and at the end of the day you found a revolver with six bullets? MR TUIS After finishing searching this room with Thebogo, we went back to the room where Pitso was. He had already killed this woman and there was a purse on the bed, red in colour and a bank bag and a revolver. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. What did you eventually manage to get in the house? Was it a gun and what else did you find? Money and how much money? MR TUIS The money that was in the purse was three R10 notes. In the bank bag was a few silver coins, I do not know how much they were and a firearm. MR MBANDAZAYO And you eventually killed the two ladies by stabbing them several times, is it correct? MR TUIS Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you drag the old lady back into her room and left her there? MR TUIS No. We killed her in her bedroom and we left her in that bedroom. The young one, we also killed her in her bedroom and we left her in that bedroom. MR MBANDAZAYO And eventually you drove, you took the Isuzu and you drove away? MR TUIS Yes. I asked Pitso where the car keys were because we had searched and I told them: "Guys you are now aware we have a firearm and now can we go?" He gave me the keys and I drove. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay and you left Pitso on the way and you gave him some share and you drove with Macdonald, is that correct? MR TUIS You see on our way, when we left the farm joining the road, we drove, but then along the way Pitso said he saw a miracle before he killed this young woman. On the curve next to Brandfort I stopped and I said: "Pitso, these guns will be left in your custody and after two weeks we will come back" and he said: "Guys, take this R30 because you are aware the petrol is not enough and please pour petrol and with the silver you can buy some food to eat. You are aware that we did not get enough money." So myself and Thebogo got into town, we bought diesel and then we drove to Bloemfontein. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay, if you had enough money, were you going to share this money amongst yourselves? MR TUIS The money was going to be handed over to Pitso and the car - I was going to drop the car where I was ordered to drop it off. MR MBANDAZAYO Where were you ordered to drop it off? MR TUIS There's a block of flats next to Tempe, that's where I dropped the car off, according to Dlogodlo's instructions. MR MBANDAZAYO And how was he going to get the car? MR TUIS He knows how he was going to get the car. He informed us that many cars have been received that way, so we just parked the car there and we locked the car. There was a - I put the car keys underneath a tyre and we left for the taxi rank. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you take the cassette, the radio cassette? MR TUIS Yes, I took it. MR MBANDAZAYO What were you going to do with it? MR TUIS I was taking it home. MR MBANDAZAYO What were you going to do with it? MR TUIS I was going to listen to it Sir, so that I could get a report as to what happened, in other words the incident that we've just committed. When we arrived at the taxi rank with Thebogo, we arrived at somewhere around to 6 at the taxi rank. We waited there for a while until past 7 and we took - I took a taxi to Pelindaba. Thebogo took a taxi to Malay Camp and the rest of the day I was at home and around 10 o'clock of the next day, I was listening to the same radio then and I heard that the police are conducting an investigation because the people who committed the murder managed to run away. I closed the room and I went to the public phones to inform Pitso - to call Pitso and I told him: "Pitso, the police are busy with the investigations". He asked me: "Listen, the tape that was in the car, did you leave it behind or did you take it?" I told him I took it, it is the same tape that informed me and he said to me: "Destroy it please" and I destroyed it. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. Now Mr Tuis, is it correct that you gave evidence in Court when you were subsequently tried for this offence? MR TUIS Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO Was it the evidence you are giving before the Commission today, the same that you gave in Court? MR TUIS No, Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO Why is it different? The evidence that you are giving today is a different one to which you gave in Court, which I think was the same. You also admitted in Court that you did this thing. Why is it different now? MR TUIS I told the Court that there is nothing I can say to them and that was a black Judge and we were fighting in the Judge's office, we were smoking dagga, there is actually nothing of progress, we were not even begging him with anything really. JUDGE DE JAGER Was it a black Judge? MR TUIS No Sir, I'm saying it was a white Judge, we wanted a black Judge. INTERPRETER The interpreter is requesting apology Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO I understand that, but what I'm saying is that why your evidence is different to what you gave in Court regarding the incident as to what happened there. MR TUIS We did not want to talk to them because they did not have a black Judge. MR MBANDAZAYO That's the evidence, Chairperson, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA I have about two questions, Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA In your evidence you've stated that if you had received more money, you'd have given it to Pitso. Why would you have given this money to Pitso? MR TUIS Dlogodlo said everything should be given to Pitso because he said he will visit our group first. MS MTANGA Why didn't you give Pitso the tape cassette that you got, the tap? MR TUIS I think I've explained when Mbandazayo asked me. I said I took the tape so that I could listen as to what transpired after we committed this act, so I took this radio cassette and the next day, as I switched it on, it resounded when the report was given out that things have happened and I left to inform Pitso. "Pitso the police are now investigating, I heard on the radio" and he asked me: "What happened to the tape that was in the car?" I said: "It is the same tape that actually informed me when I switched it on that the police are investigating" and he said to me: "Please destroy it" and that I did. MS MTANGA On page 7 of the bundle, paragraph 2 on the 6th line, you state that "We used the money that we got from the victim." Is this correct? MR TUIS I don't hear you well Ma'am. MS MTANGA In your affidavit on page 7, paragraph 2, line number 6, you stated that "We used the money that we got from the victims", that is yourselves, Pitso and yourself used the money, or yourself and Mologwai used the money that you got from the victims, what I'm asking you now is, is this correct, did you use this money? MR TUIS Yes, I explained that the R30 was given to us by Pitso. He said we should pour diesel and the diesel in the car was not enough to take us to Bloem. Now the silver was a few amount, he gave us those few silver coins and he said we should buy something to eat. We spent it in the shop and that was it. MS MTANGA I have no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA ADV SANDI Mr Tuis, can you explain, is there anything political about this incident? What has this got to do with politics? MR TUIS We were ordered by Mbandazayo - we were sent by Dlogodlo to attack the whites in the Free State. I am sorry for saying Mbandazayo, I'm really sorry, the name that I keep on hearing today is Mbandazayo, I'm really sorry for that. We were sent by Dlogodlo to destroy the farmers in the Free State so that the Africans could get back their land and through their elimination we were supposed to get firearms and vehicles and the vehicles retrieved would be taken to a place where we were ordered to drop them off. The firearms and the monies were to be given to Peleo and then he would go get them from Peleo. ADV SANDI But according to the papers, one of these women was sexually assaulted, do you know about that? MR TUIS You know how this came to my knowledge, it was - we were being sentenced by the Judge, a doctor arrived and he explained that the young white woman, it appears that she was raped, but what the doctor actually told the Court was that she was not raped at all. The doctor said he conducted or she conducted a research and there was a rubber in her vagina that he or she discovered and due to that rubber, the rubber was still in tact, it was not ...(indistinct), so it means the woman was not raped and even inside the doctor could not find blood. JUDGE DE JAGER He found Pitso's semen on her. How did that come about? What was Pitso doing? How did his semen come on the woman? MR TUIS Yes, the doctor said he or she discovered a little blood but how the blood got in there, I don't know. Pitso is here, he will explain how the blood got there. JUDGE DE JAGER Perhaps you could explain why you told the Court the following "I would explain how the dogs were killed. The whore that I killed seemed as if her stomach was very big, as if she is going to give birth. I then decided to break open the stomach and to see if I can find the child in the stomach. I took our a hunting knife that was very big, it was very clearly a knife that could kill somebody. I stabbed her on the one side of her neck, that the knife appeared on the other side of the neck. Afterwards I stabbed her in her private parts" and then you said: "I can see her daughter today in the Court, there she sits. God as well as Satan was with her and helped her that I did not find her in that house that evening. I would have taken out her eyes, I would have cut off her nose and would have cut out her private parts and I would have taken it with me." Did you tell the Court that? MR TUIS I explained earlier on that I did many things in the Judge's chamber, there are many things that I told the Judge. Yes, that I mentioned to the Judge. That I stabbed her on the private parts, no, I did not, I just stabbed the body, not the private parts, I did not stab her there. It is true, I did mention that had we found the son and the daughter, we were going to kill them all, because they were always with their mother. Had I found them in the house, I would have killed them all, we were not going to leave them, we were not going to spare them. Unfortunately God was with them and God said to them: "Don't go home, you are fine where you are, you'll only hear what happened." Truly speaking, had they been there, I was going to kill them all. I was actually out routing the tree. JUDGE DE JAGER Ja. And the old lady who was killed was 87 years old. Didn't you kill this young lady, or the younger one of 57 because you said that she once served you food in a dirty dish? MR TUIS Let me explain this. The issue of the dog's dish was seen by Pitso. We were having our lunch and we were smoking and Pitso saw here when she went to fetch the dish from the dogs. We did not see her because we were just chatting among ourselves, but Pitso saw her, but afterwards when she brought the food, Pitso stopped her and said: "Missus, but I saw you going and get that dish from the dogs, I did not quite understand what you were doing, but I saw you approaching the dogs. This is a dog's dish." Yes, that happened, but that was not something to disturb me that much, up to a point of taking their lives. What I was trying to say by referring to that issue, I was hiding the instructions that were given out. CHAIRPERSON Wasn't that said by Pitso? But in any event, you worked at this farm whilst you were incarcerated for the car theft, that is in other words you had to work on this farm after you had been found guilty of this car theft. MR TUIS We were alternating, we are many prisoners. today we work here, the next day we work there. CHAIRPERSON The question is simple, Mr Tuis. You worked on this farm, you worked there at some stage? Did you not, or did you work at this farm? MR TUIS I did work once. CHAIRPERSON With Pitso Peleo and another person? MR TUIS And other people, yes. CHAIRPERSON Why do you say "I was very drunk from the dagga when I killed the whites. I smoke almost 10 joints. I forgot to mention to the Court that I smoked 2 very strong joints before I killed the women." Doesn't that suggest that because of what obtained, the dog's dish, that you had to get Dutch courage to take revenge, doesn't this sound like that, or would I be mistaken? MR TUIS That is not so. You know, this is the situation Sir. When I say I'm a person protecting the organisation and the community, I'm referring to the blacks only. The whites to me are an enemy and I killed them according to the instruction given to me. From that day when I was given an instruction, I just told myself, I'm going to kill them until nothing stops me. CHAIRPERSON When you got the instructions, you thought of this lady, or this white lady where you worked at? When you got the instructions to repossess you thought of this lady who gave you food out of a dog's dish, or what is the reason? MR TUIS After been given the instructions, she was a target because we once worked there, we noticed that we'll find the guns and we'll manage to carry forward the other operations. CHAIRPERSON What is this reason, you'll find it on page 39, the last, 31 "Prison made a mistake because I had to work for whites, because I did not plan to work for whites in my life." MR TUIS Yes. You see at that time in prison, you were not allowed to sit, you had to do any work, in other words we were being sold to the farms, the white farmer would not just come, he would buy you and after that he would make use of you in any way and there are many things really before this dog dish issue that happened to me, now who didn't I have the idea of revenging myself with the others? I recall one day I had to work at Human's place. Human went to the prison to ask for prisoners to work at his yard. I recall one afternoon in knocking off, I said to him: Mr Human, please can you give me R2?" and he said: "What are you going to do with that R2?" and I said to him: "No I want to buy sweets" and he said: "Undress so that I can give you just one lash on the buttock" and I really undressed and he gave me the strongest lash and he gave me the R2 afterwards. Now why didn't I have the idea of going to revenge myself against Human. You see, that one was pure assault, pure abuse and I did not go to revenge myself. He was living together with his wife and his child, it was easy for me to go and revenge myself against him, but you see, it was because of the decision that the woman was bad luck. The instruction was given out and Pitso said: "We have a target, we already know the target, let's go, finish the job, get the firearms and carry on with our mission". Had we been successful, who knows, we would have even got to a stage of getting a chance to go to the Human's and destroy them as well. There are many things really that happened to me. I did not have that idea of revenging, just on the basis of a dog's dish. CHAIRPERSON "I warned them that if they take me out to go and work for whites, I will kill whites when I leave the prison. The Court must not forget that I said that it doesn't matter as to where the Court takes me, but not long after that I will come back. I am sure that by the next year, the same men will be outside. If I get out I will look for the Judge, I will look for nobody but the Judge." Was that still by instructions of the Task Force? MR TUIS Those were not the instructions, but then I was defying the white rule at that time. I ended up saying that because I said: "Judge, you are a boer and I'm telling you that I do not want a white Judge, I want a black Judge. You can do whatever you like with me, but I am certain that I will go wherever you send me, but I will come back and on my coming back, I'm going to look for you in South Africa, I will even go to your grave and dig you out and see as to whether it is true you are dead." That's what I told the Judge, I was actually defying their rule. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you tell them: "Look, I've got instructions from the PAC", because you felt strongly, sorry: "from the Task Force, I feel strongly against whites. The first white person I get out, I'll murder", why refer to specific individuals and individuals you have worked for? Why not the Task Force says: "One bullet, one settler", I'll get the first settler and kill the settler, why mention specific people here? MR TUIS You see, I would not be given an instruction and upon arrest I take out everything. No, I did not want to pierce the bladder. In other words, I would be revealing the secrets of the organisation. CHAIRPERSON Just before you forget, this is not a secret, everybody knows that "One settler, one bullet", one organisation was preaching that quite openly, it's not a secret, why would you be revealing a secret which is no secret, known to everybody? MR TUIS I would not expose myself to my enemies. They were going to kill me in turn, so I was right by doing away with my tracks. They were not supposed to know my political affiliation. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, any re-examination? MR MBANDAZAYO Just one aspect. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Tuis. MR TUIS I'm listening Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO Now you have heard that one of the women there was sexually assaulted, would you say if that happened as it was the case, the Judgment, was that part of the instructions or order? MR TUIS No. MR MBANDAZAYO Also, would you say that when you took the tape and you went with the tape to your home, was it part of the instructions? MR TUIS No. MR MBANDAZAYO Was the using of the money to buy food and pour petrol, was it part of the instructions? MR TUIS From Pitso, yes, from the Commander, no. I now want to clarify this issue of rape. The doctor explained in Court, the doctor said the rape did not take place. I want you to get that one clear. The doctor explained in Court that this person was not raped at all, but how the blood got there, the doctor explained yes, it was Pitso's blood, but how, he said Pitso was one of the weakest men, who would even ejaculate by just seeing the woman and the doctor explained that so weak is Pitso that upon seeing a woman, he just ejaculates. What he did we did not see, but the doctor mentioned that it did not happen. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Tuis is it not correct that Pitso was convicted of rape? MR TUIS No, he was never arrested for rape. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Tuis. MR TUIS Thank you Chairperson Motata. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, are you calling any other witnesses, because the applicant indicated that he's got a witness. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson I don't know whether it will take our case any further, that one, but if - because it's his feeling that Pitso, who I understand was commanding in this operation ... CHAIRPERSON I would advise you to switch the mike off and get the applicant's instructions in this regard. MR MBANDAZAYO ...(inaudible - mike not on) is to call Pitso, because he was commanding, according to the first applicant, he was commanding in this operation and the instruction, the order was given direct to him and they were taking orders to him. He's going to testify that they were indeed given an order by Dlogodlo and testify about Dlogodlo. CHAIRPERSON Mr Peleo, is that your surname? MR PELEO That is my surname, yes. CHAIRPERSON I saw somewhere in the papers there's Petrus, you don't use that name? I want to get your full names like you would have them in your identity document. PITSO PETRUS PELEO (sworn states) MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Peleo, can you tell the Committee to which organisation do you belong, political organisation? MR PELEO It's AZANYU. MR MBANDAZAYO When did you join AZANYU? MR PELEO In 1990. MR MBANDAZAYO Before that, did you belong to any political organisation or did you follow politics? MR PELEO I was a member of the Self Defence Unit. MR MBANDAZAYO When was that? MR PELEO In 1985 until 1988. MR MBANDAZAYO Now who recruited you into AZANYU? MR PELEO It's Comrade Lebohang Mehi. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, there is a person mentioned by Mr Tuis by the name of Dlogodlo. Can you tell the Committee about Dlogodlo? MR PELEO Dlogodlo was an APLA Commander here in the Free State. CHAIRPERSON When did you first meet him? MR PELEO I first met him in 1993. He was together with Tabiso Makwala asking for accommodation on his behalf. MR MBANDAZAYO Exactly when in 1993? MR PELEO It was in January, but I do not recall the date. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. Then what happened? MR PELEO Tabiso said he wanted me to accommodate him and he told me that he was the Commander of APLA in the Free State. I welcomed him. On the second or the third day he explained to me that he was here, he came to see me on a purpose, he wanted to send me out with two or three comrades to go and attack the farmers and he said my Task Force - I should choose two Africans from the Task Force who would go with me to attack. I chose Samson and Macdonald because there were the Africans I know and they were with me in the training of the Task Force and I told him that it was Samson and Thebogo. He asked me to introduce him to them and I told him the other one was in prison and the other one was outside. So we left with him, together with Tabiso Makwala and we went to Macdonald Thebogo. I showed him Thebogo. He told Thebogo that he wanted to meet us on the 3rd of February. He left to where Tuis was working and we met with Tuis and he asked when Tuis was going to be released. Tuis informed him. He told Tuis that he wanted to meet us, the three of us on the 3rd. It happened then that Tuis was released from prison on the 3rd. He arrived, Mr Makwala, he was together with Mr Dlogodlo. We went to Thebogo's place. We found him and we took him and we left for Samson's place. When we arrived he was there and he got into the car and we all left for town. We stopped at a place called Nineteen Ten, that's where Dlogodlo informed us that there's work that he wanted to give us and this was the attacking of farmers and he said he wanted money and firearms and we should destroy. He said we should eliminate, not even to leave a baby behind, that's what he told us. Those are the instructions he gave us. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you carry out the instructions? MR PELEO Yes, we carried them out. MR MBANDAZAYO Now there is evidence that a woman was raped in the process and it is alleged that you are the person who raped that woman. Was it part of the instructions? MR PELEO No, I'm sorry, it was not part of our instructions. This woman was not raped. She wanted to protect herself. I got into that room where she was sleeping. On me entering the room, I produced a firearm, I pointed her, she was lying on top of the bed and I searched the bed and a firearm fell from underneath the mattress. I searched and there was nothing. I left - I left her - I told her to sit on the bed and I sat on the dressing table and whilst sitting on the dressing table, waiting for Samson and Macdonald, Samson came in and he told me: "We have found another one and we have tied her up already" and I said to him: "Why did you leave her? Kill her and this one will tell us everything". Samson went back into that other room. This woman told me that they did not have money and the money that she had was all in the bank. She pointed at the wardrobe. She said: "Open that door and there is a bank bag inside there but it only contains silver and a purse". I opened the wardrobe and I discovered that bank bag and I took it out. I put it on the floor. When I was searching further, I heard someone knocking the door and it was this woman knocking the bedroom door and she was naked and she told me, she said: "Man, don't kill me, I will give you whatever you want". I said to her: "Dress, why do you undress?" and I don't know what happened, I just got blank and she was walking at a distance from that table and I don't know what happened thereafter. She was close to me and she caressed me. While I was a bit drowsy, she hit me with a knew on the stomach and I nearly fell and she wanted to grab the firearm and I managed though to quickly grab the gun and pointed it at her and I told her to dress. That she was raped, no, she was not. I am still asking myself how it came about that my blood got into her, but I'm sorry, please I left a few words, I did not include them, allow me. As she was caressing me, she pulled down my pants up to the knees and I think, as she was caressing me, we might have touched each other and that's how my blood got to her, but that I raped her, that is not true. That's the end of my story. MR MBANDAZAYO Now finally, my last question would be to you, now if I got you correctly, I'm subject to correction that your order was that you kill those people there, I did not- was there any order to take anything in that farm, because you mentioned that the order was to kill those people? MR PELEO The order was to kill and to take firearms and to take money. No any other order was given to us. MR MBANDAZAYO Why then did you take the vehicle? MR PELEO Oh yes, we were told not to leave the vehicles behind because a vehicle was one of the things that assisted the organisation, it was known that the PAC organisation was a poor organisation and it was an organisation without any international monetary assistance. Now we were taking the vehicle - the vehicles that were taken, were taken to Transkei, Lesotho and Botswana to - we were swopping them, we left the vehicles in those countries and we would be given money or firearms, so that the arms struggle could go on. MR MBANDAZAYO Now why was, in terms of the instruction or order, why were these things not handed directly to Dlogodlo, why did they have to be left somewhere? MR PELEO Dlogodlo said the car should be left at Tempe. If there is money and firearms, those should remain in my custody and he will come get them. Now the firearm was with me. Unfortunately the money, the silver was about twenty-something rand. We used it and the next day, on the third day, he sent Tabiso Makwala to me to get a report as to how we performed the duty. He was in Transkei. He unfortunately did not personally meet me, he had gone to Transkei, due to other reasons. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you eventually know who Dlogodlo was? MR PELEO Yes, Sir. MR MBANDAZAYO Now finally, why did you not in Court, tell the Court what you are telling the Commission today? MR PELEO Sir, I believe I'm a soldier, I'm an African soldier and you are given an instruction. No matter what the circumstances, you do not tell the truth. Rather than telling the truth, you rather kill yourself. I was now hiding the secret of the organisation. Had I opened the case, had I opened my mouth that I was fulfilling and carrying forward the operations of APLA, I would have let the cat out of the bag and the Government of oppression was going to protect the farmers and our intentions would never be furthered. Now I was protecting the organisation by not telling what I am telling here today. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson I know I said finally but there is one point I would like to canvass and it will be the last point. You indicated that you joined PAC in 1990, am I correct? MR PELEO Yes, you are correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Around when did you join PAC in 1990? MR PELEO On the 23rd of August, here in Phahameng, Bloemfontein. MR MBANDAZAYO Am I correct that you were well-versed with the leadership of the PAC? You knew the leadership of the PAC well? MR PELEO Yes, I knew that. MR MBANDAZAYO Do you know who was leading the PAC then? MR PELEO Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO Who was leading the PAC? MR PELEO It was Mr Mofishli Dikotsi, he was the Chairperson of the PAC in the Free State. MR MBANDAZAYO No, I didn't ask Free State, I'm asking the PAC national leadership. MR PELEO Yes, I knew. MR MBANDAZAYO Who was the leader of the PAC? MR PELEO It was Clarence Makwetu, his deputy was Motsoko Pheku, Secretary-General was Benny Alexander, those are the people I still remember. MR MBANDAZAYO Do you still remember the founding President of the PAC? MR PELEO Very well so. MR MBANDAZAYO Who was he? MR PELEO It's Robert Sobukwe. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson, that is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Surely you don't have questions? MS MTANGA No, Chairperson, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Mr Peleo for having come forward to testify. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is that your case Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO That's the case for the applicant, Chairperson, that's all. CHAIRPERSON I would request short submissions. MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I'm in a difficult position, I must say so. Firstly the incident itself, that unfortunately myself as I normally know some of the names used in the liberation movements, unfortunately the one Dlogodlo I couldn't come up with. Secondly I know Tabiso Makwala, luckily he was one of the applicants in one of the incidents, who subsequently died, but the problem I'm faced with is the question, the timing of the whole thing. The applicant was in jail when this whole thing was planned and it was hardly three days when he left prison and he was given an instruction to go and - on this mission. Now I don't want to put my neck on a block. I know that the Committee will come and ask me questions because I used to make submissions on how the operations went and how APLA was operating. Well definitely, I have to concede that this one, definitely Chairperson, was not in terms of what I understand and what I know and Chairperson, as well that there is this element of sexual assault, rape, in this matter, which of course, Chairperson, that puts me in a very, very difficult position to argue anything on that. JUDGE DE JAGER Ja, I understand your position and we've heard his explanation about it and it's whether we accept it or not, but we understand your position. No I don't thinks it's necessary for you to further address us on the issue of rape, we follow your submissions in that regard and we've heard his evidence and his explanation. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, thank you. Chairperson, mine is to say to the Committee, you have heard the evidence and have listened to the applicant and the witness and the Court records and everything, mine is to say that I think, Chairperson, without adding anything or diluting what has been said by the applicant and the witness and what the records are saying, this information is enough for the Committee to reach a fair and just decision in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA Chairperson, I have no submissions to make. I leave this matter in your hands. NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. The Committee reserves it's decision. It shall be given as soon as possible. I would give an undertaking personally that a decision shall have been reached by the end of this month, a written one for that matter. You can hold me to that Mr Mbandazayo. Thank you very much. Thank you for your assistance. Mr Peleo, the applicant, Mr Tuis, would be informed in due course, that is two weeks from hence about the decision of this Committee. We shall have to deliberate about it. You are excused and he is also excused. Anything further on our role, Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson, our next matter is the application of Mr Thejane and I have noticed that both representatives are here. Would the Committee consider excusing the prison officials? CHAIRPERSON Are you saying the people from Correctional Services, whom they've got to take back. MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson, unless the Committee is of the view that we will be able to hear Mr Pudumo after this matter and by looking at the time, I don't think that it will be possible. CHAIRPERSON It doesn't look possible. Thank you very much. We would commence at the same time tomorrow, that is 9 a.m. and we'll start with Mr Pudumo immediately. Thank you very much, Gentlemen. We'll give you time to take the applicants back to the various places of safe custody. INTERPRETER Chairperson, can the interpreters have a 5 minutes break please? COMMITTEE ADJOURNS