amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-06-13 BLOEMFONTEIN 2 SELLO DAVID THEJANE AM7942/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54253&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200613bl.htm CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon. We are commencing with the application of David Thejane and the Panel that would hear the same, it's myself, Motata chairing and my brother Judge Chris de Jager on my right. We are both from the Transvaal Provincial Division in Gauteng. On my left is our brother Adv Sandi from East London in the Eastern Cape. I would request the legal representatives to place themselves on record. I'll start with you Mr Johnson. MR JOHNSON As it pleases the Committee. I'm Henry Johnson from Henry Johnson Attorneys in Zastron Street here in Bloemfontein. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Johnson. For the victim? MR SAMUEL As it pleases the Honourable Committee. My name is S H Samuel, Hamilton Samuel, I'm from the firm N W Palat and Partners in Bloemfontein and I appear on behalf of the victims, Abel Coane, Norman Choane as well as well as Moiketsi Jikila. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Samuel. Mr Johnson, are you ready to start with the applicant and my I ask you ... MR JOHNSON I am ready Mr Chairperson. I will lead the witness in English, or the applicant in English as it seems as if it will be easier for everybody. CHAIRPERSON I'll ask my colleague here to swear the applicant in. JUDGE DE JAGER Is he Afrikaans or English speaking? MR JOHNSON The applicant can indeed understand English, Mr Chairman. JUDGE DE JAGER Will he give evidence in English? MR JOHNSON He's going to give his evidence in Sotho. SELLO DAVID THEJANE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR JOHNSON Mr Thejane, you are indeed the applicant in this matter, is that correct? MR THEJANE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON I'm going to lead the evidence of the applicant, Mr Chairperson, in connection - by the guidelines set in page 4 of the bundle, marked Annexure B, it is not a proper affidavit, but it is a statement made by the applicant. Mr Thejane, you were a member of AZANDLA, is that correct? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Is it also correct that you left South Africa during 1985? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson, that is in 1986. MR JOHNSON And at that stage when you left South Africa, where did you go? MR THEJANE I went to Botswana. MR JOHNSON What were you supposed to do there? MR THEJANE I was seeking political asylum and going for training. MR JOHNSON What training did you go for? MR THEJANE Military training, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON How long were you then in Botswana undergoing military training? MR THEJANE From 1986 until 1989. MR JOHNSON Where did you undergo this military training? MR THEJANE I started in Botswana, refugee Camp. MR JOHNSON Could you again say what is the name of the camp where you underwent this training? MR THEJANE Dukwe Refugee Camp. MR JOHNSON At what stage did you then return to South Africa? MR THEJANE I returned in 1989. MR JOHNSON In what manner and where did you then enter the Republic of South Africa? MR THEJANE I was arrested at Zeerust border gate. MR JOHNSON Why were you arrested there? MR THEJANE Because I entered illegally, I entered Botswana illegally. MR JOHNSON Do I understand correctly that at that stage you did not have any form of passport or something like that? MR THEJANE I had a repatriation papers. MR JOHNSON At the stage when you were arrested at Zeerust, where were you held in custody? MR THEJANE I was arrested at Zeerust police station by the South African Defence and the South African Security Police. MR JOHNSON At some stage you were also then recruited by the Internal Security Unit known as Askari, is that correct? MR THEJANE Some black members came from Welkom and Sasolburg and then they came to me. MR JOHNSON And where did they approach you? Where were you at that stage when they approached you to recruit you? MR THEJANE They were not coming to recruit me, they were coming to take me, to arrest me at Welkom police cells and then give me papers of Section 29, of Internal Security Act. MR JOHNSON Do I understand correct that at that stage you were held under Section 29 of the then Internal Security Act? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Could you describe how did it happen that you were then recruited to Askari? MR THEJANE They detained me for a year and some months under Section 29 and they were interrogating me. Thereafter I was detained under Section 31, to testify against those who came from AZANDLA who were detained at Klerksdorp. MR JOHNSON At the initial stage when you were then recruited, first of all did you then indeed join Askari? MR THEJANE They recruited me after I testified. I was told by Gramor to come to Welkom after I was released to go and testify at Klerksdorp. I was informed that people from Bloemfontein would come and fetch me there. MR JOHNSON After you were recruited, what was your rank in Askari? MR THEJANE I was not issued with a rank, I met with the Commander of Askari, that is Capt Venter. MR JOHNSON Is it correct then Sir, that in the initial stages you were only a normal troop, if you want to call it that? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Is it then also correct that at that stage by being a member of Askari, your force number was one of 0450085-7, is that correct? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson. I went to police college for training in Hammanskraal. MR JOHNSON Is it also correct that at some stage you then occupied the rank of Constable? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Can you remember in which year it was which you received the rank of Constable? MR THEJANE It was between 1991 and 1992. MR JOHNSON What were the objectives of this group known as Askari, at that stage? MR THEJANE The objective was to gather information and again to track down people who had been trained outside. MR JOHNSON At that stage, who were you commanders? MR THEJANE My first Commander was Sgt Barnard and after that it was Haberon. Another one was Capt Venter and Sgt Botha came later. MR JOHNSON In which area were you supposed to operated and then gather information? MR THEJANE I was working in various places, in Transvaal, Lesotho, Transkei and Free State as a whole. MR JOHNSON The information which you then gathered, who were you supposed to give this information to? MR THEJANE We'd hand over that information to Sgt Barnard and then he would take it to Capt Venter and then he will take it to Col de Kock or to any person whom it is desired to be given to. MR JOHNSON During 19 - apparently during 1991 there was an incident in Zulu Street in Rocklands where some shots were fired. Would you please explain to the Committee what was this incident and what happened there? MR THEJANE It was at night. I don't remember as to whether it was Friday or Saturday, I was having on my person a Makarov pistol. There were people who were following me, there were about 14 to 15 people. I produced the firearm and warned them, then I shot at them with the whole magazine. I did not observe what happened thereafter. MR JOHNSON Can you remember approximately in which month in 1991 it would have been that this incident took place? MR THEJANE I don't recall very well, but it was ... MR JOHNSON Can you remember if it was in the summer or in the winter? MR THEJANE It could have been during winter time. MR JOHNSON Now at that stage you say there were plus minus 14 persons. What were they doing and what made you suspicious about this group of people? MR THEJANE I was disembarking an Opel Rekord car, they were following me. MR JOHNSON What did you think they were going to do? MR THEJANE They ...(indistinct) me as whether they were armed with knives and ...(indistinct) MR JOHNSON What did you think they were going to do to you? MR THEJANE I thought they were people who were instructed to come and kill me, or to kidnap me. MR JOHNSON Why did you think that? MR THEJANE I saw the way they were approaching. MR JOHNSON Now at that stage when you shot ... (inter-vention) ADV SANDI Sorry. Sorry about that, can I just come in for a moment? How were they approaching you? In what manner were they approaching you which made you suspicious? MR THEJANE They were running. ADV SANDI You said these were about - how many people, 14, 15, did I follow you correctly? MR THEJANE Approximately 15, 14 to 15 people. JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Johnson I just want to have clarity on this. Are you applying for amnesty in regard to this incident? MR JOHNSON Chairperson, the amnesty application is indeed for this incident as well because he does not know if he at any stage, he injured anybody. JUDGE DE JAGER At this stage, I don't want to prejudge the issue, but it seems as though he's telling us now that he acted in self-defence. He doesn't know whether he wounded anybody. Is he admitting that he committed an offence here, because if he doesn't admit that he committed an offence, we can't give him amnesty. MR JOHNSON Indeed, Chairperson, but this forms part of his affidavit which he gave to the Amnesty Committee in the first instance and that would form part of certainly a full disclosure, what he should be making to the Committee. If the Committee does not wish to hear this evidence, I can skip that part and go indeed to the ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER No, I don't know whether he's asking for amnesty for assault on people or attempted murder on people, or whether he's saying: "well, I've done nothing wrong, I acted to protect myself." If he's saying: "I've only acted to protect myself", he could say that and we could leave it because then it's irrelevant as far as amnesty is concerned. If he says: "Well I exceeded the bounds, I'm asking for amnesty", then it's another matter. MR JOHNSON I understand, Chairperson, and I will take it up with the applicant then. ADV SANDI You know, also in the same vein, I'm not sure if one can say there was any political motive on the part of these potential attackers on the applicant, it may have been a group of robbers who saw a potential victim and were about to attack him, we don't know. MR JOHNSON I understand. JUDGE DE JAGER On the other hand whether he had a political motive or whether he only wanted to protect himself, because if there was no political motive apart from whether it's an offence, it's irrelevant as far as amnesty is concerned. MR JOHNSON Indeed Chairperson. Mr Thejane, first of all I want to clarify one specific aspect. At that stage you said you were in possession of a Makarov pistol. This Makarov pistol, where did you get it? MR THEJANE It was issued to me from the Security Branch Office by Sgt Barnard. MR JOHNSON Concerning this specific incident further, did you indeed then act in self-defence or is it something that you wish to apply for amnesty? MR THEJANE I don't know what happened after my shooting because I just returned to fetch the cartridges at night and early in the morning, so therefore it shows that no person was injured or killed. MR JOHNSON I'm proceeding then to the further incident. At some stage you were located or relocated to a farm outside Bloemfontein. Can you remember in which year it was that you were located there? MR THEJANE Yes, I remember. MR JOHNSON In which year was it? MR THEJANE Somewhere between 1990 and 1991. MR JOHNSON Concerning this specific farm, what was this farm used for? MR THEJANE We used that farm as our office base. MR JOHNSON During your connection, or during your period which you were one of the askaris, at some stage there would have been some tortures involving certain people, is that correct? MR THEJANE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Can you remember when this would have been? MR THEJANE During that period when I arrived from 1990, 1991 to Sgt Barnard. MR JOHNSON At some stage you were involved in the torture of one person by the name of Abel Choane, is that correct? MR THEJANE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Can you tell the, or inform the Committee who is Abel Choane? MR THEJANE ; I learned that Abel Choane was one of those who were working at a particular unit and white members were not treating him well, then he ran away. MR JOHNSON Is it correct that he was indeed - also formed part of Askari at that stage? MR THEJANE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Could you inform the Committee how did it happen that Abel Choane was captured in the first instance? MR THEJANE The information came when we were in Ficksburg, when we were handling APLA members. We received information around that Abel Choane is around Bloemfontein and Botshabelo. We left Ficksburg and came to Botshabelo searching for him. MR JOHNSON What happened then? MR THEJANE There was a certain member called Jack Baloi who left with an informer with Toyota Corolla, blue Toyota Corolla, to introduce Jack Baloi to that informer's uncle, that Jack is his uncle. I did not know the content of that information. Jack Baloi went with that particular informer and then we didn't receive further information but we followed that information day and night up to a point where, that is to say they had a photo album about people who we were supposed to identify. We went to a particular teacher in Botshabelo together with Jack Baloi. They went to a tavern which was called Peter's Tavern, it was a Friday night. That informant introduced Jack to other people who were with him. It happened that there was somebody who was sought for by Bloemfontein people, Then Jack went outside to look for the photo and then he came to a kombi which was tinted. I, Victor Gadi and Patrick Ngamela were sent to identify that particular person in the tavern. We were given money to buy alcohol. We drank about two to three bottles. We produced the firearms and instructed all the people to lie down in the tavern, that's Peter's tavern, that is where we arrested Abel Choane's brother, who was known as Abel Choane, I don't remember his name but that person is from Welkom. Abel Choane was not present there. We took them and put them in that kombi which was covered with curtains. MR JOHNSON Is that now Mr Abel Choane's brother which was arrested? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Where did you go to with them? MR THEJANE We brought them to Fountain building at 5th floor. MR JOHNSON Is that here in Bloemfontein? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson, that is the Security Branch offices. MR JOHNSON Was he brought here? MR THEJANE We took him because so that we will torture him so that he will tell us the whereabouts of Abel Choane because he was sought by Barnard and Company. MR JOHNSON At the stage when he was then interrogated, were you present during this interrogation? MR THEJANE Yes, I was present Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Were you also then involved in, or first of all this brother of Abel Choane, was he tortured as well? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson, he was tortured and I was present. MR JOHNSON In what way and how was he tortured? MR THEJANE He was interrogated first then thereafter he did not co-operate, Luit Landman instructed us to torture him, that was myself, Jack Baloi and Patrick Ngamela We tortured him, we tied him with a bandage, his hands were at the back, we tied him on the legs. We took a blanket, a sealing blanket which was used by detainees at the cells, we made him to lie down and we covered him with the blanket. We rolled him so that he will face upwards. Then somebody would sit on his legs. I had a small tube. I would cover him on the face with that tube up to a point where he would tell us the truth. MR JOHNSON You covered his face with this tube. Do I understand correctly that this person would then suffocate? MR THEJANE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON How many times, or - yes how many times was this person, this brother of Abel Choane, how many times was he tortured in this way, by putting this tube over his face? MR THEJANE I would say we did it five to six times. MR JOHNSON And in each period, how long would this tube be over his face? MR THEJANE It would depend, because you'd feel as to whether that person is suffocating and those signs would tell us when to move the tube. It may be some seconds to a minute. We will see some sings, when you see him that he is suffocating, and then we'll move that tube quickly. MR JOHNSON For how long in total did this period of torture go on on this person? MR THEJANE We started around 2 in the morning up to 4 o'clock in the morning. MR JOHNSON And is that ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER When did you start? How long did it last? From 12 o'clock till 4 o'clock, or from what hour to 4 o'clock? MR THEJANE Approximately three hours. MR JOHNSON Did you receive the necessary information that you were looking for from this person who was tortured? MR THEJANE He informed us that he was together with his brother, but he did not know as to whether he went to Welkom, but he knew that he was around because he was with him. MR JOHNSON Who gave you the instructions at that stage to torture this person? MR THEJANE We received the instructions from Luit Landman and Barnard. MR JOHNSON And were they also present during these tortures? MR THEJANE Landman would be present, but I'm not sure about Barnard because we were many. MR JOHNSON Is there any other way, except the tube which was used, which this person was tortured with? MR THEJANE Even by slapping him and hitting him with the fist. Maybe other methods were used in my absence, I'm not sure. MR JOHNSON After this person was tortured, do you know what happened to him? MR THEJANE I did not know what happened to him, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON At which stage, or is it correct so that this person which you were looking for at that stage, Abel Choane, was also arrested later on, is that correct? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson, we learned that he was arrested later. MR JOHNSON And were you also then present during his interrogation? MR THEJANE I was present when he was interrogated and then again when he was tortured. MR JOHNSON Were you also involved in torturing this Abel Choane? MR THEJANE Correct, Chairperson, I played a role. MR JOHNSON What did you do? MR THEJANE We were slapping him. If I remember well, we used the tube method to him. MR JOHNSON Did you personally hit Abel Choane? MR THEJANE No, Chairperson, I did not but I used the tube. I covered his face with the tube. MR JOHNSON Now can you remember the date on which this incident would have taken place? MR THEJANE No, Chairperson, I don't remember the date. MR JOHNSON And on whose instructions was Abel Choane tortured? MR THEJANE By Landman and by Matsisa's instructions. MR JOHNSON And were they also present during this torture of Abel Choane himself? MR THEJANE Correct, Chairperson, they were present, they came in and out. MR JOHNSON ; Can you remember approximately at which time this torture would have started and at which time they would have finished? MR THEJANE I don't remember Chairperson, but it took a longer time. MR JOHNSON Would you say it was longer than his brother's torture? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON The method that was used on him, if I understand you correctly, he was hit with hands and with fists and you again used the tube on his face to suffocate him. MR THEJANE The person who was hitting him has since died, he was shot and killed, that is Oupa Mashile. MR JOHNSON Now at that stage whilst he was tortured by being hit, did you do anything during that stage? MR THEJANE No, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Can you remember how many times did you put the tube over his face? MR THEJANE It was not only me who was tubing him but that was done four to five times. MR JOHNSON But can you remember how many times you did it? MR THEJANE I tubed him many times, but I recollect only two to three times. MR JOHNSON Can you remember if Mr Abel Choane at any stage during or after this torturing actually bled? MR THEJANE No Chairperson, I don't remember. MR JOHNSON After Mr Choane was tortured, do you know what happened to him? MR THEJANE I don't remember, I don't know Chairperson what happened to him but he was handled by people who were at ground floor. MR JOHNSON You mentioned a person that was also present during Abel Choane's torture, by the name of Oupa Mashile, is that correct? MR THEJANE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Concerning Oupa Mashile himself, Oupa Mashile was actually murdered later on, is that correct? He was shot dead. MR THEJANE We learned that he was shot dead in Welkom. MR JOHNSON Do you know how or by whom he was shot? MR THEJANE He used not to come to duty and then on the pay day he had a fight with Luit Landman telling him that he did not come to work regularly, he's going to deduct some money from his salary, then they had a problem, then Oupa Mashile said he's leaving the unit. He did not stay for a long time because he had four to five taxis, so it seems they did not trust him. After that we were informed that he was shot dead by MK members. When we were preparing to retaliate, we were told not to go there. MR JOHNSON Do you know if Luit Landman or anybody from askari itself, was involved in the killing of Oupa Mashile? MR THEJANE I did not know because I was scared by the dispute they had, but I had that suspicion. MR JOHNSON The only thing you had was a suspicion, you did not know, you did not have any knowledge that anybody was involved, is this correct? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson, it was a naked suspicion. ADV SANDI Sorry, can I just come in there? You say as you were about to go and retaliate someone told you not to go there, who was that? MR THEJANE Landman and Barnard informed us that they said we should not go even to his funeral. MR JOHNSON I'm carrying on to a matter where another person was tortured, a person by the name of Jikila. Do you remember this incident? MR THEJANE I do remember this person, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Can you remember when this took place? MR THEJANE I remember Chairperson when it happened. JUDGE DE JAGER Just before we step off the previous one, how long after Choane left the police was he killed, six months, a month, a year, or what? MR THEJANE Approximately three to four, four to five months. He was a taxi owner. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. MR JOHNSON I'm carrying on with the matter of Jikila. Can you remember when this torture took place, the date and the year? MR THEJANE I don't remember the exact date, it was somewhere in 1993. MR JOHNSON This person Jikila, do you know if he was a member of any other political organisation at that stage? MR THEJANE I did not know him. The people who came with information were those who were working ...(indistinct - mike not on) and one of them is Booysen Motsamai. MR JOHNSON Now this person Jikila, where was he tortured? MR THEJANE He was tortured at Fountain Security Branch office. MR JOHNSON On whose instructions was he tortured? MR THEJANE Luit Landman's instructions, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Can you remember what form of information you wanted to extract from him? MR THEJANE He was not alone, there were many people. There was information which we received whilst we were working in Transkei, looking for Happy Mphahlele. MR JOHNSON And is that the nature of the information which you wanted to extract from this person called Jikila? MR THEJANE It was not only about that particular issue, but it was also in regard to the people who were involved in the burning of the farm houses. MR JOHNSON At that stage, can you remember how long Mr Jikila was tortured for, what period of time? MR THEJANE He was tortured approximately, or he was detained at Botshabelo police station. He was fetched four times, then all those four times he was tortured. MR JOHNSON Were you present at all of these incidents all four times? MR THEJANE That is correct Chairperson, I was the one who had gone to fetch him from Botshabelo Police station and bring him to Fountain police station. MR JOHNSON And in what way was Mr Jikila tortured? MR THEJANE He was tortured by being hand cuffed and leg cuffed and covered with a blanket and hitting him with fists and being slapped. MR JOHNSON Was he also tortured by means of this tube that was put over his face? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson, I was the main role player in the tubing effort, so I did that to him. MR JOHNSON Can you remember how many times did you put this tube over his face so that he suffocated? MR THEJANE Six to seven times, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON After Mr Jikila was tortured, do you know what happened to him, was he released or not? MR THEJANE I don't know what happened to him because they were detained under Section 21, I think there were approximately 20 to 25 people. MR JOHNSON Do you know if Mr Jikila at any stage suffered any physical injuries during these tortures? MR THEJANE I did not know Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Did you speak to Mr Jikila after this incident? MR THEJANE Yes, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON When was that? MR THEJANE It is somewhere in 1994 and 1995. MR JOHNSON Did he recognise you as the person who tortured him? MR THEJANE That is correct Chairperson because he knew me even before. MR JOHNSON Did you apologise to him concerning these incidents where you tortured him? MR THEJANE Yes, I met with him whilst I was going to the bank, then we had a discussion with him, then he said there's no problem. We went to a radio interview. He's a friendly person. MR JOHNSON And did he accept your apology? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson, he accepted my apology. MR JOHNSON I refer the Committee to pages of the bundle, pages 11 through to 13, which would be the typed and hand-written statement of this person named Jikila in which he confirms that. As it pleases the Committee. Mr Choane, have you spoken to Mr Choane after this incident? MR THEJANE No, Chairperson, I did not. MR JOHNSON Is that indeed Mr Choane sitting across the room? MR CHOANE Choane, Abel Choane. MR JOHNSON Sorry, Mr Choane. MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Do you wish to apologise to Mr Choane about what happened to him? MR THEJANE That is correct, Chairperson. I wanted to meet him but I did not know where he was. MR JOHNSON Would you apologise to him now whilst he's sitting there? MR THEJANE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOHNSON Do that please. Tell him that you're sorry. MR THEJANE I want to tell Abel Choane that I am sorry. May you please forgive me? This was the political situation, we were forced and there was nothing to do. Things have changed now and I am sorry. MR JOHNSON Now then at what stage, or how did it happen that you were not a member of this unit Askari at the end of the day anymore? MR THEJANE There was a meeting at Vlakplaas where Eugene de Kock addressed us and he told us that the unit was being dismantled and they will organise that we get the packages. MR JOHNSON And did you then receive such a package? MR THEJANE Yes, I did. MR JOHNSON Is there anything else at this stage that you would want to bring under the Committee's attention concerning any violations of Human Rights which you want to apply for amnesty for? MR THEJANE Yes, I just want to know whether it's possible for the Committee to go to the farm where we used to work, just to point it out. There is no farmhouse anymore, all the stores that were there have been broken down, but the farm is still there. MR JOHNSON If the Committee would want you to show them, they will ask you to go and show them the farm, but is there anything else that you want to make public to the Committee concerning any violations of human rights? Other people which you remember which were tortured or whatever? MR THEJANE Yes, there are many of them, I do not even know their names, as far as Transkei. MR JOHNSON Were these all people that were tortured whilst you were a member of Askari? MR THEJANE Yes. MR JOHNSON Do you remember any other specific persons except Choane and Jikila, do you remember the names? MR THEJANE I do not recall their names, but I could identify them. MR JOHNSON Can you remember approximately how many other people were tortured during your stay at Askari? MR THEJANE Many people of the PAC who were in Ficksburg and those who were here in Bloemfontein. MR JOHNSON Concerning your application, I just want to make sure about certain points. On page 1 of your application which I will show to you at this stage, you make mention in paragraph 8(b) that you were a constable from 1989 to 1993 with your force number, the date of 1989, is that correct Sir? MR THEJANE No, it is not correct. We were still Askaris at that time, we had not yet been appointed. MR JOHNSON Yes, but if I understand your testimony correctly, you only were recruited by Askari in plus minus 1991, around there, is that correct? MR THEJANE That is correct. MR JOHNSON Those are the only questions to the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOHNSON CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Johnson. Mr Samuel, any questions at this juncture? MR SAMUEL Mr Chairperson, yes I do have a few questions, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL Mr Thejane when was Abel Choane arrested by the Security Forces? MR THEJANE I do not know when was he arrested. I don't know what do you mean by his arrest. MR SAMUEL If I understood you correctly, you mentioned that you tortured him, or you were present during the torture after he was arrested and if my understanding is correct, that according to your testimony is after his brother had disclosed his whereabouts to be in Welkom. JUDGE DE JAGER I don't think he said his brother disclosed anything. They tortured his brother for hours on and his brother said: "He's somewhere around, I don't know where." CHAIRPERSON Probably in Welkom, but he never disclosed. MR SAMUEL I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson. When you tortured Mr Abel Choane, where had he been arrested prior to the torture? MR THEJANE I do not know what happened. Information came up that Abel Choane was present. We had been looking for him and we could not find him. Who caught him, I do not know, who arrested him, I do not know. MR SAMUEL Where did the torture take place on Abel Choane? MR THEJANE It was at Fountain where I was present, I do not know whether he was tortured anywhere else where I was not present. MR SAMUEL Okay, let's concentrate on the time that you were present. Can you remember the date that you administered this torture where you were present at Fountain Street? MR THEJANE I do not recall the date. He was not the only person we handled, we handled many people. I do not recall the date therefore. MR SAMUEL Could you perhaps give us an indication which year was it? MR THEJANE If I recall, it could have been around 91,92, if I remember well. MR SAMUEL Are you sure, this is the question I'm asking now, I'm asking on you know the request of Mr Abel Choane, are you sure you were ever involved in torturing him especially in the method that you described earlier on, that of tubing him? MR THEJANE I was present, yes and we could have been six, if not seven, some - together with white people and some were just standing not torturing. MR SAMUEL You said it was around 1991 thereabouts that you tortured him? MR THEJANE Yes. MR SAMUEL Could I just confirm something with my client? JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Samuel, we would like to know, if you could assist us, do you agree with - does your client agree with what he is saying or is there any dispute and if so, what are the disputes? MR SAMUEL That is what I'm trying to establish right now. I've got a statement from my client, I'm trying to reconcile that with the evidence that has been given by the applicant. He says he was tortured by the Security Police, although he cannot remember if you were present or not, but he denies every being tortured by way of tubing. What do you have to say about that? MR THEJANE The people from the Security Branch did not use the tube method, the Askaris, we Askaris used that method. Maybe he does not remember me because my hair was permed on that day. MR SAMUEL Would you say the extent and the severity of the torture on that day could have affected him in such a way that even given the fact that he was the recipient of this torture by tubing, he wouldn't recall the person administering that? MR THEJANE He did not know us. During that tubing he even mentioned the name of Oupa Mashile, he said Oupa Mashile saw him with his colleague in the kombi when they were going to Welkom. He was telling those white people that Oupa saw him and Oupa never arrested him at the time when he was wanted, because I did not know him, I only knew him from a photo. ADV SANDI Mr Samuel, just for my own clarity, does the victim, your client, does he remembered being tortured by a person with permed hair? MR SAMUEL That doesn't appear from the statement so far, but I can quickly establish that. JUDGE DE JAGER Was Mr Choane ever tubed by anybody, because he won't forget that if he had that horrible experience? MR SAMUEL Well my instructions are that he was never tubed, but he would like, with the permission of the Committee, to explain the nature of torture he was subjected to by the Security Forces. JUDGE DE JAGER We are at the moment hearing an application from this applicant about what he did wrong, so we're not hearing evidence about what other people did wrong, that was heard by the HRV Committee, but this man confesses that he's done something wrong and now it seems that he's confessing about something he never did, or never did vis a vis your client. CHAIRPERSON And again he's under cross-examination so we wouldn't allow that. MR SAMUEL Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, since my instructions are that my client does not - denies, it's not a question of not recall, he denies ever being tortured by that method of tubing, I cannot take this case any further, or this line of questioning any further than that. CHAIRPERSON I suppose this is a question that is outstanding. Mr Thejane said that whilst he was tortured, he even mentioned that Oupa Mashile saw him, but never arrested him. Would he confirm that or deny that, that he said that whilst he was tortured? MR SAMUEL Well that particular statement is denied by the victim. There is another statement that he said, but not that specific statement, but it is not quite relevant at this stage to these proceedings. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Samuel. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga, any questions? MS MTANGA I have a few questions Chairperson, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Mr Thejane, you have testified that you also tortured the brother of Mr Abel Choane, am I correct? MR THEJANE Yes, you are correct. MS MTANGA Are you also applying for amnesty in respect of his torture? MR THEJANE Yes, I am. MS MTANGA What was the political affiliation of the brother of Abel Choane? MR THEJANE I did not know him. The person we sent infiltrated them and I was told that, or I learned that this person was a teacher. Which organisation he belonged to I did not know but I knew that he was Abel Choane's brother. MS MTANGA What was the reason for torturing him? MR THEJANE The reason for torturing him was to tell us the whereabouts of his brother, because we had already arrested a person who was going with Abel Choane. MR MTANGA How would you say the torture of the brother of Abel Choane was politically motivated if you did not know his political affiliation? MR THEJANE I don't know, two or three of them were arrested from the tavern and we were told to torture him to tell us where Abel Choane was because Sgt Barnard and them wanted him. MS MTANGA Who arrested them? MR THEJANE I was present when they were arrested in the tavern. MS MTANGA Who identified them for the arrest to you? MR THEJANE I mentioned that one of our members infiltrated Abel Choane's brother and the other teacher and they introduced each other, "This is Abel Choane's brother, this is so-and-so, this is so-and-so." Now this person went outside and he took a thorough look at a photo. We had Abel Choane's photo and a photo of the other Welkom chap, so he went outside to take a thorough look at the photo and this person who was working with us then came to us to tell us. Luit Landman said we should then go and verify. We should buy a beer and we should be satisfied. We should actually look where Jack Baloi was sitting and verify as to whether the person in the photo is the person who is inside. We went inside, bought some beers, pretended to be drinking, we took our guns and we made them to lie on the ground and we arrested them. We took them into the kombi. MS MTANGA You are also applying for the torture of Jikila, am I correct? MR THEJANE You are correct. MS MTANGA Can you give us all the methods that you used in torturing Jikila, what was done to him? MR THEJANE Jikila was arrested at his house. We took him to the office. We then moved them to the police station in Botshabelo. The next day we took him to the fifth floor of Fountain building. He was interrogated but not by us. People from the ground floor asked him questions and afterwards they brought him to the fifth floor. We wrapped him in a blanket and we tubed him. MS MTANGA Is that the only method you used to torture him? MR THEJANE He was assaulted with hands in between, like he was being slapped, but that was the main method of retrieving information from a person, that is the tubing method. MS MTANGA According to Jikila's affidavit on page 11, he states that he was severely assaulted by your group and that, to an extent that he suffered a broken rib. Do you know how he sustained a broken rib if he was just slapped and covered with a tube on his face? MR THEJANE I do not recall a rib being broken, but he was severely assaulted, yes and even when I was out, I had left the room, the tubing would continue, but I do not recall the broken rib issue. JUDGE DE JAGER In his evidence-in-chief ...(indistinct) he was also hit with fists, I don't know whether - slapped and hit with fists. MS MTANGA I did not get that evidence Chairperson and he also has not mentioned it now because I was going to go further and ask him. Mr Jikila, I've just been - sorry, Mr Thejane, I've just been corrected that you did mention that Mr Jikila was also hit with fists during the torturing. What I also want to know, besides using fists and slapping a person and a tube method, how else would his rib have been broken? MR THEJANE I would not believe him when he says that. The people who were being tubed would be wrapped in a blanket and they would be pressurised, they would be pressed down. MS MTANGA Did you kick him at any time? Was he kicked? MR THEJANE I do not recall being kicked, but I recall the tubing. MS MTANGA Did you apply any electrical shocks when you tortured your victims, or your detainees? MR THEJANE We did not use the electrocution methods. Maybe the other floors used that method, but we used the tube method. MS MTANGA I have no further questions Chairperson thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Anything? ADV SANDI Just one factual issue. Mr Samuel, does your client know whether his brother was assaulted and tortured as alleged by the applicant, does he know about this? MR SAMUEL Thank you Chairperson, my client does know that his brother was tortured, in fact I did consult with his brother myself and he did disclose a few things to me when I took down his statement. Unfortunately due to work commitments, he could not be present today and he indicated that he would only be present tomorrow. Some of the evidence that is coming forth now from the applicant, is contrary to what my client, the brother, indicated to me earlier on. I do not know whether I would get another opportunity perhaps tomorrow to continue with my cross-examination on his part, you know, on the part that is contrary to what my client said to me earlier on. JUDGE DE JAGER Why don't you put it to him now? You've got an affidavit or a statement by your other client, put it to him where they differ. MR SAMUEL With the leave of the Committee, I will proceed to do that. I thought I was still on the floor when the Evidence Leader was given a chance. What I indicated earlier on ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry, I didn't understand, I understood you to say you are finished, I'm terribly sorry. MR SAMUEL Thank you Mr Chairman. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL Before I move to Norman Choane, let us just go back to Abel Choane. It is my instructions to put to you that my client Abel Choane was never an Askari, what is your comment on that? MR THEJANE When I had just arrived here in Bloemfontein there was a Sergeant called Selai. They were working together. They used to go together to Klerksdorp and the white people from the Special Branch did not - the conditions under which he worked were not nice and he disappeared, but he told Sgt Selai about the girlfriend that he had in exile, he had an AK47 that he left outside the country. Mr Selai explained all this to me, I did not know him, but he was telling me about him. MR SAMUEL So you were only told that Abel Choane is an Askari, or was an Askari? MR THEJANE Yes, I was told. MR SAMUEL Let's go to the torture of, because I have a few questions just on that one, the torture of Mr Jikila. You stated that the only method that you used was the tubing and that is on the fifth floor where you were and you said you do not know about the other floors, what type of torture they used. Are you then saying that the torture did not only take place on that floor, it took place throughout the whole building, from you know - at different angles? MR THEJANE Yes, I think so because that was a big building. It's not only us who took him. People like Booysen Motsamai also had a chance to take him. MR SAMUEL So the fact that he had a broken rib after one of these tortures, you wouldn't deny that, save for denying that you administered that type of torture? MR THEJANE Yes, it could happen, but I do not recall during our torture his rib breaking. MR SAMUEL Could you just help me? After the torture on Jikila, where was he taken? MR THEJANE He was still under Section 29, we took him back to Botshabelo. It's possible that he might have broken his ribs because during the time we would fetch him from the cells, he tried to escape and he was hitting against the bars of the cells. JUDGE DE JAGER Surely you can't see when a rib is broken. It could happen with the hit of a fist. It could happen and you can't see it, it's not obvious like a tree being broken, you can see it's broken, it's inside the person's body, you don't know whether he had a broken rib so you can't dispute that. MR THEJANE It's true, I did not see it break. MR SAMUEL Looking at Jikila's affidavit or statement, and I quote. He says: "I sustained a broken rib. Among the members of the Security Police who assaulted me, David Thejane who is the applicant in this matter, was present." Would you agree with me that what he suggests there is that during the assault where he sustained this broken rib, you were present and you could have administered that type of an assault? CHAIRPERSON No, no, it doesn't suggest that. He says when he was assaulted, he was present, but he would have said he lifted a hand, or something like that. He doesn't say that. I don't in any event read that into that sentence you have just read. MR SAMUEL I will refrain from the question then because Mr Chair, that was looking at the paragraph, that was my understanding of the implication created there, but I will then move to Norman Choane. CHAIRPERSON Before you ask the question, how is it spelled? C-H-O-A or E? ANSWER A. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SAMUEL Could you briefly discuss or just explain to me to refresh me, how Norman was tortured? JUDGE DE JAGER Surely he shouldn't repeat his whole evidence-in-chief. He's told us that already, it's on record. Didn't you take notes? MR SAMUEL Mr Chair I did take notes but I'm trying to come to the discrepancy that it is the type of torture that he describes and the type of torture that my client ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Well put the difference to him and let him answer. MR SAMUEL Mr Norman Choane instructs me that when he was tortured, during the torture that you claim to have been present, he was kicked and whilst lying on the floor, some of you and your colleagues were jumping up and about on his body. What's your comment on that? MR THEJANE We were on the ground floor with Norman Choane. He was tortured. He was placed on a seat, as I am sitting now. If I remember well, his hands were tied behind the chair and he was being slapped. MR SAMUEL Where exactly was that kind of torture that you're describing, where did it take place, on the ground floor or on the fifth floor where you used to administer yours? MR THEJANE I don't recall but I think it was on the ground floor because we were waiting for Col de Kock to come and tell them under which circumstances they were arrested. We were still on the ground floor and the offices on the other floors were closed because to gain entry one had to use numbers. MR SAMUEL Could you tell us specifically yourself when you administered this torture, where were you, on the ground floor or any other floor and if so, which floor? MR THEJANE I am explaining that the other floors had code numbers to gain entry so we were on the ground floor. JUDGE DE JAGER ...(indistinct - mike not on) INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. JUDGE DE JAGER "We arrested Abel's brother and took him to the fifth floor Security Branch to torture him so that we could find his brother. I was present when he was tortured and I ..." He was interrogated by Landman and Landman ordered you to torture him. "We tied him with bandage, we lied him down and covered him with a blanket" and I think you then described about rolling him in the blanket. "I tubed him, I suffocated him, I think five or six times. It went on for about three hours." Now you're talking about something on the ground floor. We're interested in what you did, because you're applying for amnesty, so tell us what you did. MR THEJANE I'm saying, if I recall well, it was not on the fifth floor, it was on the ground floor because he had two torturings. He was tortured while he was sitting on a chair, that was the torture and the other torture where I was involved, was when he was covered or rolled in a blanket. I made a mistake by saying it was in the fifth floor. MR SAMUEL So are you saying that that torture when he was covered with a blanket happened on the ground floor? MR THEJANE Yes, all torturing, the torturing happened on the ground floor, I don't know whether there was any other torturing because we left them there. MR SAMUEL When you say "we left them there", who is the we you're talking about? MR THEJANE We left them at the office with Landman. CHAIRPERSON What Mr Samuel wants to know, you are using the royal pronoun "we", you and who? MR THEJANE It was around four, five o'clock in the morning, so we were knocking off, we were going home, so we left and behind we left Landman and them. The Security Branch of Welkom was also here, they brought that information. MR SAMUEL Well, Mr Norman Choane says that the torture on him took place, he cannot recall for how long, but he says it went on right through until the sun came up, around 7 or 8 in the morning. CHAIRPERSON That would accord with the applicant's answer. He said we did it until round about 4 a.m. I don't know what happened to him thereafter, whether he was further tortured, he doesn't know. MR SAMUEL I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Samuel. Any re-examination Mr Johnson? MR JOHNSON I've got no re-examination Mr Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JOHNSON WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Are you going to call any other witnesses? MR JOHNSON That is the case for the applicant as well. There's no further witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Johnson. Mr Samuel, are you calling any witnesses? MR SAMUEL Mr Chairperson, I will first start with Mr Jikila. I will just put some factors on record here. When I received instructions here ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, no, firstly, are you going to call anybody, firstly? MR SAMUEL I'm not going to call any witness at this stage, but save for the fact that I did not consult with Mr Jikila, I do not know whether he is aware of his appearance today. I have been to his place on two occasions and my fear is that if he does come about at any time between now and tomorrow, you know the story could change, but then I noticed in his affidavit he does mention that he discussed the matter with the applicant and he forgave him. I do not know what to deduce from that. My suspicion is that because he did not come forward and consult with me and even make his appearance at this hearing, the only inference I can draw is that he does not intend opposing the application. In the premises I do not have any witnesses to call and I do not intend calling the victims as well. They do not in principle have any problem with the application except for the statement that I've put forth to the applicant. Thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Samuel. I'll start with Mr Johnson t make just short submissions why we should grant amnesty, even though they do not oppose, it's still within our province to grant or refuse. MR JOHNSON IN ARGUMENT Thank you Mr Chairperson. First of all it is my submission to the Committee that the applicant has indeed complied with the requirements for amnesty being full disclosure and that it was politically motivated. The applicant in this matter was at that stage working for a group by the name of Askari. Now that was a government institution and ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER That was part of the police force and he received instructions from his superiors Landman and he acted on their instructions, isn't that so? MR JOHNSON That is exactly my point Judge, that he indeed acted on instructions at that stage. Although Mr Choane denies being tortured by the applicant, the applicant still says that he indeed did torture Mr Choane. Now concerning the torture itself, the applicant has made a full disclosure and it is my submission that he should qualify for amnesty concerning all the incidents of torture. As it pleases the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Johnson. Mr Samuel, is there any other thing in respect of submissions which you want to bring to our attention? MR SAMUEL IN ARGUMENT I believe I have made the view of the victims clear. I would then submit that the Committee has the discretion to grant or not to grant the amnesty. My clients do not want to in any way saw, or influence, the decision of the Committee because they basically do not have any interest in the matter. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Samuel. Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA I have no submissions to make, Chairperson. NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. This brings us to the conclusion of the application of Silo David Thejane. The Act requires that we give a written decision and we would reserve our decision and we'll give that very shortly, but may I thank you, Mr Johnson, you Mr Samuel and you Ms Mtanga for the assistance in this matter. That is highly valued and appreciated. Thank you very much. The Committee adjourns for the day. We'll commence at nine tomorrow, Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS