amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-06-21 CAPE TOWN 12 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54265&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200621ct.htm CHAIRPERSON We continue with the hearing. When we adjourned yesterday, it was for Mr Williams to put any questions he may have, to Gen Webb. EDWARD WEBB (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Williams? MR WILLIAMS Thank you. Mr Chairperson, I think I have been covered to a great extent, by Mr Bizos. I have got no further questions. NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Williams. Mr Hockey? MR HOCKEY I've got no questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HOCKEY CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis, do you have any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR H DU PLESSIS Certain aspects, Mr Chairman. General, arising from the questions from the side of the Committee, I get the impression that the Committee finds it strange that you are presented as the Commanding Officer of Special Forces, but you don't take the trouble to study the files of personnel and about all the authorisations, could you please explain to the Committee what the situation was at that stage in the country, and what your position was? GEN WEBB Mr Chairperson, to sketch the situation in the country, in October 1984 the President, he had already employed the South African Defence Force, there was a State of Emergency in October, October 1985 and in June 1986. In the publications of the State of Emergency, there was many additional powers given to the Special Forces, which showed how serious the situation was internally. The country was burning. We still had to act, we could not end our operations. As far as my own situation is concerned, it came from a conventional power, we had to adapt against anti-insurgents, but above that, there was Special Forces and that is a further fine tuning of these anti-insurgent operations. Furthermore, I had to brief myself as far as covert operations were concerned, something that was completely new to me. There was no course in the Army as far as covert operations were concerned. My own priorities with Special Forces was firstly the uniform part, established units, busy with operations, operations planning, my second priority was the CCB externally which was also established, busy with operations, planning of new operations and CCB internally as third priority. The workload, all the regiments had to brief me. MR H DU PLESSIS The regiments did not come to you, you had to go to them and it took a lot of time? GEN WEBB The CCB had to brief me, I had to visit certain places. I was also involved in meetings with the general staff. Tasks emerging from those meetings, there were also visitors from overseas we had to handle and I also had various social responsibilities that I had to see to. If I look at matters now with hindsight, then I was actually dealing with a crisis management situation. MR H DU PLESSIS The terrorist war or struggle as we knew it at that stage, did not grind to a halt to give you the opportunity to first reorientate yourself and establish yourself and familiarise yourself with your now posts, it actually escalated in intensity and continued? GEN WEBB That is correct. MR H DU PLESSIS The CCB, you have already testified, was just a small part of Special Forces? How many Regions were there of the CCB? GEN WEBB If I remember correctly, there were nine Regions. MR H DU PLESSIS You have also testified before the Committee that you met with Col Verster for about an hour per week, specifically dealing with the CCB aspect of Special Forces? GEN WEBB On average, yes. MR H DU PLESSIS If you take the nine Regions and I calculate correctly, it relates to about six and a half minutes per Region, is that correct? GEN WEBB Yes. MR H DU PLESSIS And then you further have the situation that of those nine Regions, eight were established Regions, with many projects on the go which perhaps you would have to discuss in more detail than Region 6, which was only in its infancy, is that correct? GEN WEBB Yes. MR H DU PLESSIS Would I be correct in saying that more time would be devoted to the other Regions, than to Region 6? GEN WEBB Yes, more to Special Forces Uniform and then to the eight Regions and then Region 6. MR H DU PLESSIS In Region 6, there was no necessity to report to you before something had materialised, which could be made into some kind of a project? GEN WEBB That is correct. MR BIZOS (Microphone not on) CHAIRPERSON Yes, if you can just watch the leading aspect. MR BIZOS Really, we must have some (microphone not on) MR H DU PLESSIS Would there have been any reason for Mr Verster to report regarding Region 6, to you in detail? GEN WEBB If any monitoring had been authorised by him, he wouldn't have to report to me about the monitoring. MR H DU PLESSIS If the monitoring had required something else which was to develop into an operation? GEN WEBB Yes. MR H DU PLESSIS I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR H DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions that you would like to ask Mr Webb? MR SIBANYONI Yes Mr Chairperson. General, the period when, I will say the transition before Jaap Joubert left and you took over, you said there was a period when you were together, were you sort of in a situation of an office, sitting together in an office? GEN WEBB Some of the times, yes. MR SIBANYONI And what would be your duties during that period when you were with him, was it the full orientation or was it ... GEN WEBB It was to orientate myself, I had no responsibilities at that stage, just for orientation of myself. MR SIBANYONI Where was that office situated? GEN WEBB In Pretoria, at the Headquarters of Special Forces. MR SIBANYONI Are you aware or do you understand the requirements of this Act, that the Commission has to establish as full a picture as possible of the conflict of the past? GEN WEBB Yes, I do. MR SIBANYONI Would you say you have told the Commission everything in so far as the policies, the procedures of the CCB? GEN WEBB I think I have, yes. MR SIBANYONI You are aware that there will be no other opportunity or platform in the future, to talk about this, is the CCB? GEN WEBB I understand that. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax? MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. Did I understand your evidence correctly that during this hand-over phase, that Gen Joubert didn't brief you on any current operations? GEN WEBB That is correct. MR LAX And that wasn't because there weren't any on the go, he just didn't brief you on that? GEN WEBB No, I was taken to the Regiments, and they briefed me on the operations. MR LAX So, in his hand-over to you, during that month when you were sitting with him, trying to understand what your new job was going to entail, he didn't take you through any of the projects that were ongoing, he didn't take you through for example this new Region 6 and say "this is what we intend to do, this is what is has been established for, this is what it is likely to be doing"? GEN WEBB No, again, I was briefed by Gen Verster regarding Region 6. MR LAX So, did Verster give you a complete briefing of all the operations? GEN WEBB Yes. MR LAX And that included Region 6? GEN WEBB That included Region 6. MR LAX Did it include what their planning was? GEN WEBB Yes, what perhaps could have been foreseen for the future. MR LAX It would have included their global budget? GEN WEBB Yes. MR LAX Because they had a most peculiar way of budgeting, they wrote off their funds in advance? You already told us? GEN WEBB Yes, a year ahead. MR LAX Yes. GEN WEBB Budgeted a year ahead, which was quite unusual. MR LAX Precisely. Without any actual projects in mind, particularly with regard to Region 6, you allocate however much money for that purpose and then the Auditor-General approves it and then you go ahead and spend it without, as if it had been approved. GEN WEBB No, there were also other measures in place. MR LAX Yes? GEN WEBB I think once a month there was a financial report given from the CCB financial staff, to the Financial Department of Special Forces, and then in that once a month report, funds were requested by the CCB, from Special Forces. It wasn't a global amount which was given on a once off basis to the CCB. MR LAX Who was responsible for giving those financial reports? GEN WEBB The financial person involved in the CCB, he had that responsibility. My Senior Staff Officer at Finance at Special Forces, he also had that responsibility, and in my time, I also appointed a person to also act as an intermediary in a way to just see that the funds were allocated correctly. MR LAX Who were these three people? GEN WEBB The person at CCB, well, I don't know his name, I did meet him. My own Senior Staff of Finance, I cannot remember his name, and the person that I appointed, was a retired man, a Brig Pheil. CHAIRPERSON How would you spell Pheil. GEN WEBB P-h-e-i-l, sir. MR LAX Did you appoint Brig Pheil with specific authority to vet the accounts? GEN WEBB To do a small audit before it came to my people at Special Forces Headquarters. MR LAX So he was the check on the CCB's own finance people? GEN WEBB He was the intermediary check. MR LAX Yes. And what were his specific instructions? GEN WEBB He had to see to the fact that the funds flowed properly, as approved. MR LAX Now ... GEN WEBB He also testified before the Harms Commission. MR LAX You see, we have heard of moneys being budgeted, take for example the Early Learning Centre, we know that it must have been in excess of R30 000-00 because the R30 000-00 was what was intended to be paid to the operative who placed the bomb. You have heard that evidence? GEN WEBB Yes, I have heard that evidence. MR LAX And in addition to that, there were transport, accommodation and all sorts of other costs that were incurred? Let's just for argument sake say it was R40 000-00, what checks did you have, or would Brig Pheil have had, in terms of knowing that for argument's sake, that Mr Burger didn't pocket R5 000-00 as is alleged in these papers? I don't know whether that is true or not, obviously, but that is just the allegation. How would he know that the money was pocketed or not pocketed? GEN WEBB There was a financial plan in existence, it was laid down in a document, it said how these funds should be spent and how it should be accounted for, there were built in measures. Although there was a bit of a dip as far as that was concerned vis-a-vis other covert funds. What these control measures was, I cannot remember exactly, perhaps an operation was approved and then that would require my signature, Verster's signature and perhaps the Regional Manager's signature. If something had been approved on Verster's level, it would require his and the Regional Manager's signatures. If it was something that only Verster could approve, it would require his signature only, but these were the security or control measures which were laid down in the document. MR LAX Okay. So, nobody signed vouchers for what they spent as far as you know? GEN WEBB I don't know. The operation itself would have determined that. MR LAX You never received any reports, or did you receive any reports that funds were not being allocated correctly, or not being spent correctly or not being accounted for correctly? GEN WEBB No, I never received such reports. MR LAX Would you have expected to receive such a report if that was the case? GEN WEBB Definitely. MR LAX And then just, let me just check here, there was one other aspect. I am still a little puzzled and you will indulge me if I am covering ground that has already been covered, and forgive me for that, but I am still not entirely clear in my own mind, how you actually weighed up the selection of targets, what were your specific criteria that you used in your own mind to decide "yes, this is a good project", it meets whatever criteria that you had, or "no, this is a bad target", it doesn't meet whatever those criteria are? Are you able to just briefly give us the three or five or eight or whatever they might have been, kinds of criteria that you could have checked off in the back of your head as you thought about a target? GEN WEBB As far as internal operations are concerned, we can look at the bomb explosion at Athlone, what was said was that the source didn't want his identity disclosed with the consequence that the South African Police already fell out of the picture, and the fact that these people were planning acts of terrorism, the fact that they had already committed such acts in the past, information which indicated that actions were being launched against the State. If it was an overseas target, then it was the base where it was situated, who was at the base, what was being done, those were the relevant issues. MR LAX And did you weigh up the potential benefits or negative consequences of the operation? GEN WEBB I am sure that went through one's mind, yes. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr du Plessis, do you have any questions arising out of the questions that have been put by Members of the Panel? MR H DU PLESSIS No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Wessels? MR WESSELS No thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS CHAIRPERSON Mr Martini? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARTINI Chairperson, if I may, just one question which I think arose through the cross-examination by Mr Bizos. Thank you Chairperson. Gen Webb, according to your evidence, you received information from Mr Verster regarding a particular project, is that correct? GEN WEBB Yes. MR MARTINI The way I understand your evidence is that you weren't given any documentation relating to a particular project, or were you? GEN WEBB Not in this case, no. MR MARTINI Well, in the Early Learning Centre project, were you given a copy of the plan, the "pre-study"? GEN WEBB No. MR MARTINI You are aware that in that matter, Mr van Zyl had to do a "pre-study"? GEN WEBB I am aware of it now. MR MARTINI Sorry, correct, at this point in time, are you aware of that, you heard his evidence? GEN WEBB Yes Chairperson. MR MARTINI And you are also aware that an "in-house" would have to take place after that "pre-study", where you wouldn't be present, the "first in-house"? GEN WEBB Yes. MR MARTINI Would you agree with me that Mr van Zyl would have more knowledge of the particular plan than possibly you? GEN WEBB You mean with the execution of the whole thing? MR MARTINI Yes? GEN WEBB Yes, because he was on the ground. MR MARTINI Correct, and he would have more knowledge possibly of what the objectives were with that plan than what you had? GEN WEBB Why the objectives? MR MARTINI Well, he prepared the plan and the way I understand the evidence, they had to have an "in-house" to discuss it and thereafter that proposal would come up to you? GEN WEBB He would possibly have been able to add something to the plan. MR MARTINI Mr Verster would then report to you on that plan, is that correct? GEN WEBB Yes. MR MARTINI Is it possible that Mr Verster might not have given you all the finer details of that plan? GEN WEBB It is possible, the thing was discussed very, very quickly, we had to make a quick decision. MR LAX Sorry, can I just intervene for a second. Isn't it so that you saw this as an opportunistic target, you didn't even know that there was a plan, you didn't even know there was a project? GEN WEBB That is correct. MR LAX Nobody told you that? GEN WEBB That is right, as I said that is the knowledge that I have now. MR LAX Yes, but at the time you had no idea that these chaps had done a "pre-study", that there had been "in-houses", nobody related that to you? GEN WEBB That is correct. MR MARTINI Correct, you had no knowledge of that? Now, Mr van Zyl's evidence was that one of the objectives in using a limpet mine, was that where it blew up, it would create the impression that this was a bomb used by the Youth Movement, it was one of their own bombs that exploded, the police would come on the scene and start suspecting "why was this bomb here in the first place, why had this bomb gone off". Were you aware of that? GEN WEBB No, I wasn't. MR MARTINI Now, Mr van Zyl prepared the plan, are you able to dispute that evidence? GEN WEBB No, I cannot dispute it. MR MARTINI So then yesterday when you answered that it was not to create, make it appear that the bomb was left by the organisation, wasn't totally correct? GEN WEBB My order was to the effect that the bomb had to explode as soon as possible, so that these people could be intimidated and frightened off. What was decided on the ground finally, that I am not aware of. MR MARTINI But yesterday Mr Bizos put to you, he said "... so this bomb, it wasn't intended to make it appear that it was left by the Kewtown Youth Movement", and you conceded that, that concession is not totally correct? GEN WEBB If the Kewtown Youth Movement had their own bomb exploding while they were in the hall, this really is stupid. MR MARTINI What is stupid? GEN WEBB That their bomb is exploding while they are in the hall or just leaving the hall, to me that is not, it doesn't make common sense. MR MARTINI Mr van Zyl says that that was what the intention was, to create that impression, that one of their own bombs in the building went off, the police would come on the scene and start asking questions "well, why is the bomb here in the first place, what is going on"? GEN WEBB That is possible that that is Mr van Zyl's perception, but it wasn't my impression. MR MARTINI Mr van Zyl says that that was one of the objectives, can you dispute that? Can you dispute his evidence? GEN WEBB I don't know what was told to Mr van Zyl on the ground, so I cannot dispute that. MR MARTINI You cannot dispute it, is that correct? GEN WEBB That is right. MR MARTINI Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARTINI CHAIRPERSON Mr van Eck? MR VAN ECK I've got no questions, thank you sir. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN ECK CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzee? MR COETZEE I've got no questions, thank you sir. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, any questions arising? MR BIZOS No questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Mr Williams? Mr Hockey? Ms Coleridge? NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HOCKEY NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Sibanyoni wants to ask another questions. MR SIBANYONI Gen Webb, if you were told this project, the object is to make the bomb to appear as if it was left by the Kewtown Youth Movement, would you have approved it? GEN WEBB Depending on how this plan would have been put in front of me. If we had to discredit them in that way, it is quite possible, yes. MR SIBANYONI But as you are sitting now, you think that would have been stupid? GEN WEBB Well, that was not my, it wasn't my order. What happened lower down the ranks, I don't know. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you General, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down now. GEN WEBB Thank you Mr Chairman. MR H DU PLESSIS It is a pleasure leaving the hot seat. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr du Plessis. WITNESS EXCUSED MS COLERIDGE Chairperson, the next amnesty applicant is Mr Daniel Burger.